Dr. Paul Farmer and Mountains Beyond Mountains

[Drogba]

Although, I'm sure many of you are familiar with this book (especially those of you with a public/international health inclination) it has recently been brought to my attention that not everyone is.

Mountains Beyond Mountains is a book exploring the work of Dr. Paul Farmer (http://www.hms.harvard.edu/dsm/WorkFiles/html/people/faculty/PaulFarmer.html), a harvard trained infectious disease specialist who has worked in Haiti for 25 years. For those of you that don't keep up with global health statistics, Haiti has the worst health condition in the western hemisphere. Dr. Farmer first visited Haiti during a gap year before entering harvard med. He continued to fly to Haiti and work in a clinic there throughout med school, flying back to take exams. Eventually he established Partners in Health (www.pih.org) with a colleague of his and help from many other individuals. This organization has grown to treat hundreds of thousands (maybe more) people a year. Dr. Farmer and PIH has shown that top quality care can be delivered in resource poor settings.

I read this book when I was a freshman in college, and then again twice more. I've also read books by Paul Farmer that are incredibly interesting. I can't recommend Mountains Beyond Mountains highly enough. It is impossible to read this book without being affected and it might just redefine what medicine is for you. I would love to hear from people that have read this and follow his work (and others like him), and the reactions of people who read this subsequently. Also I'd like to hear what people thought of his books, Pathologies of Power, Infections and Inequality et al.

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[Crazy Horse]

amazing story and well written...loved it

 

[TheNextMD]

I had to read it as a freshman too. It was a pretty good story, although I never finished it (turns out my English section had nothing to do w/ the book unlike the majority of the other sections).

 

[Old Grunt]

Although, I'm sure many of you are familiar with this book (especially those of you with a public/international health inclination) it has recently been brought to my attention that not everyone is.

Mountains Beyond Mountains is a book exploring the work of Dr. Paul Farmer (http://www.hms.harvard.edu/dsm/WorkFiles/html/people/faculty/PaulFarmer.html), a harvard trained infectious disease specialist who has worked in Haiti for 25 years. For those of you that don't keep up with global health statistics, Haiti has the worst health condition in the western hemisphere. Dr. Farmer first visited Haiti during a gap year before entering harvard med. He continued to fly to Haiti and work in a clinic there throughout med school, flying back to take exams. Eventually he established Partners in Health (www.pih.org) with a colleague of his and help from many other individuals. This organization has grown to treat hundreds of thousands (maybe more) people a year. Dr. Farmer and PIH has shown that top quality care can be delivered in resource poor settings.

I read this book when I was a freshman in college, and then again twice more. I've also read books by Paul Farmer that are incredibly interesting. I can't recommend Mountains Beyond Mountains highly enough. It is impossible to read this book without being affected and it might just redefine what medicine is for you. I would love to hear from people that have read this and follow his work (and others like him), and the reactions of people who read this subsequently. Also I'd like to hear what people thought of his books, Pathologies of Power, Infections and Inequality et al.

Thanks, I'll check that out. As far as the Eastern Hemisphere, I think Afghanistan must take the cake.

When I was there, Doctors Without Borders got ambushed and now they won't even go there. Not much good to say about the health system of a country where the average life expectancy is 44.

 

[45408]

Although, I'm sure many of you are familiar with this book

Oh, they are. Over half of the personal statements that I read last time I offered to read them had references to that book. It might be a great book, but please don't mention it like the 19,000 other pre-meds do.

 

[Drogba]

Oh, they are. Over half of the personal statements that I read last time I offered to read them had references to that book. It might be a great book, but please don't mention it like the 19,000 other pre-meds do.

Yeah I know its almost become a cliche amongst those interested in Global/Public health, but in a way that makes it all the more spectacular. The fact that so many people are mentioning it shows what an effect his work has had on the next generation of doctors. When was the last time any one book about a doctor sold so much or had so many people mentioning it in personal statements?

 

[limpkitty]

Yeah I know its almost become a cliche amongst those interested in Global/Public health, but in a way that makes it all the more spectacular. The fact that so many people are mentioning it shows what an effect his work has had on the next generation of doctors. When was the last time any one book about a doctor sold so much or had so many people mentioning it in personal statements?

maybe a bunch of pre-meds cited it in the ps, but I doubt it'll have any effect on them and their decisions/actions in life. no, derm and plastics will still be the most competitive specialities and doctors will still bitch more about malpractice payments and taxes then they do about the disparities in healthcare in this country and the world

 

[brsboarder]

almost all personal statements follow similar stories, maybe from a different vantage point. Lets be glad that there are still some decent people entering medical school who have cared to spend time reading a book that wasn't a textbook.

 

[bruinator]

I read pathologies of power, and I thought it was pretty good. I found the parallels between the NY and Russian MDRTB epidemics to be pretty profound..

 

[barto123]

why is everyone so in love with this book? most of it is kidder kissing farmer's ass about how much of a extraordinary genious he is. sure he might be, but why the hell would i want to read about that? it would be more motivational if farmer was a more humble and likable person, i felt that he was depicted as arrogant and overzealous. the greatest heroes in my opinion are those that do great works yet retain their anonymity and dont reap massive recognition in best selling books, that way we are sure they are not doing it for the glory but rather for altruism.

as the albert schweitzer wrote, "there are no heroes of action-only renunciation and suffering. of these there are plenty. but few of them are known, and even they not to the crowd, but to the few."

 

[brsboarder]

you've never met paul farmer have you? His is humble in his own right, but one only has to look at partners in health to see what he has done. He's a great doctor, someone to aspire to be like, and he has sacrificed so many things (read his family) for his work. Farmer didnt write the book, someone else did. Who cares how people become inspired to do good, as long as they find that inspiration

 

[somethingpositi]

In case people are interested, PIH recently started a student e-mail list. You can find it at www.pih.org on the left hand sidebar. The purpose of the list is to connect students from all across the country and share advice about public health careers, projects, and everything PIH. Also, if anyone is in the Boston area this weekend, Farmer is giving a speech with Ophelia Dahl on Harvard's undergraduate campus.

 

[crixyphoid]

why is everyone so in love with this book? most of it is kidder kissing farmer's ass about how much of a extraordinary genious he is.

Unfortunately he ended up as runner up for the Macarthur, right? He deserved it!

sure he might be, but why the hell would i want to read about that? it would be more motivational if farmer was a more humble and likable person, i felt that he was depicted as arrogant and overzealous. the greatest heroes in my opinion are those that do great works yet retain their anonymity and dont reap massive recognition in best selling books, that way we are sure they are not doing it for the glory but rather for altruism.

How do you know he's cocky? Kidder wrote it about him. I met him when I was on my own research trip in Haiti, then a bunch back home. Our hospitals' expat staff are all buddies. He's chill. He's comedic and confident. He's realistic about goals and generally a good, down to earth guy.

Also- most of the proceeds go to his new projects-like his really well-constructed one in Rwanda.

Plus- why does humbleness make the hero? There is nothing wrong with taking credit when its due- especially if you want people to back you on your next project. Farmer's an awesome fundraiser and strategizer.

as the albert schweitzer wrote, "there are no heroes of action-only renunciation and suffering. of these there are plenty. but few of them are known, and even they not to the crowd, but to the few."

AND I worked at A.Schweitzer's hopital in Haiti- I've read sooo much about Schweitzer as a basic requirement of living on hospital grounds. I'm with you on the good intention behind his quote- but Albert and Gwen were living in a different time. You probably are familiar with the competitive nature of getting funded. Working a non-profit now is harder than ever. There's more need for funding than there are funds for the most part- and people give to trusted, founded, transparent (administratively) organizations.

 

[barto123]

Plus- why does humbleness make the hero? There is nothing wrong with taking credit when its due- especially if you want people to back you on your next project. Farmer's an awesome fundraiser and strategizer.

recognition and taking credit leads to vanity and impure motives. glory will corrupt even the most genuine of altruists. i equate heroism with altruism, because i believe a hero is someone who does nothing out of vainity or pursuit of fame and desires no reward for the work he/she has done. by going public with your acts of goodwill and charity you have already reaped your reward, thus largely nullifying your goal to do something good without selfish intent. i feel like im just restating my osu essay.

 

[brsboarder]

"recognition and taking credit leads to vanity and impure motives. glory will corrupt even the most genuine of altruists."

Very scientific there

 

[barto123]

"recognition and taking credit leads to vanity and impure motives. glory will corrupt even the most genuine of altruists."

Very scientific there

yes because my intention was to be "scientific"

 

[Kikaku21]

recognition and taking credit leads to vanity and impure motives. glory will corrupt even the most genuine of altruists. i equate heroism with altruism, because i believe a hero is someone who does nothing out of vainity or pursuit of fame and desires no reward for the work he/she has done. by going public with your acts of goodwill and charity you have already reaped your reward, thus largely nullifying your goal to do something good without selfish intent. i feel like im just restating my osu essay.

This is insanity. Not just this post, but half of the stuff in the thread. Where is it that Paul Farmer is basking in the glory of his achievements? Where is this Paul Farmer limelight at? Have you every gone and heard the man speak? Yes, sure he talks about his accomplishments... But he does so in the light of the gross inequality between the healthcare of the affluent and the destitute sick.

Paul Farmer will, for example, point out the success he has had in putting Haitians on ARVs. He does this to show that it CAN BE DONE. You CAN deliver AIDS treatment in the most ravaged areas in the world. He IS NOT stroking his ego here. He is showing that we can care for these people, yet we do not. Look... See? This patients GOT BETTER. Why are we ignoring the rest of them? Why are we letting people die? That is what I have heard Paul Farmer talk about.

And quite frankly, even if he were stroking his ego, I don't care. He is doing tremendous things to change the way people think about care in impoverished settings. He is showing what can be done.

 

[crixyphoid]

recognition and taking credit leads to vanity and impure motives. glory will corrupt even the most genuine of altruists. i equate heroism with altruism, because i believe a hero is someone who does nothing out of vainity or pursuit of fame and desires no reward for the work he/she has done. by going public with your acts of goodwill and charity you have already reaped your reward, thus largely nullifying your goal to do something good without selfish intent. i feel like im just restating my osu essay.

Its almost biblical/koranical! Recognition and credit CAN lead to vanity- or it can attract the attention that a cause needs to hype up the public to recognize it and take action. What about Don Cheadle and Darfur? Sure- we can say celebrities and politics don't mix. I'm sure the people who put their blood sweat and tears literally into making the Save Darfur campaign what it is today thought long and hard about involving celebrities. Its a mixed bag- you add a face to a campaign which may have honest and noble interests or may be looking for more selfish gains in order to attract attention to the cause- you let him take some recognition and credit for the greater good. Paul being a pretty public figure- does a lot of good for his cause. His books, bring in money and attract other young, bright people to the cause by showing them that they can do it too. Plus, if you see him in different forums, you'll know that he knows how to play the game. He's hot on semantics and can play to most crowds- he's in it for the cause and to set the movement in my opinion. I honestly see what you mean and I'm not saying that its not a good concern- but I think its a concern- not a truth. Not an if/then statement but an if/possibly one.

 

[Dienekes]

Although, I'm sure many of you are familiar with this book (especially those of you with a public/international health inclination) it has recently been brought to my attention that not everyone is.

Mountains Beyond Mountains is a book exploring the work of Dr. Paul Farmer (http://www.hms.harvard.edu/dsm/WorkFiles/html/people/faculty/PaulFarmer.html), a harvard trained infectious disease specialist who has worked in Haiti for 25 years. For those of you that don't keep up with global health statistics, Haiti has the worst health condition in the western hemisphere. Dr. Farmer first visited Haiti during a gap year before entering harvard med. He continued to fly to Haiti and work in a clinic there throughout med school, flying back to take exams. Eventually he established Partners in Health (www.pih.org) with a colleague of his and help from many other individuals. This organization has grown to treat hundreds of thousands (maybe more) people a year. Dr. Farmer and PIH has shown that top quality care can be delivered in resource poor settings.

I read this book when I was a freshman in college, and then again twice more. I've also read books by Paul Farmer that are incredibly interesting. I can't recommend Mountains Beyond Mountains highly enough. It is impossible to read this book without being affected and it might just redefine what medicine is for you. I would love to hear from people that have read this and follow his work (and others like him), and the reactions of people who read this subsequently. Also I'd like to hear what people thought of his books, Pathologies of Power, Infections and Inequality et al.

 

[Dienekes]

maybe a bunch of pre-meds cited it in the ps, but I doubt it'll have any effect on them and their decisions/actions in life. no, derm and plastics will still be the most competitive specialities and doctors will still bitch more about malpractice payments and taxes then they do about the disparities in healthcare in this country and the world

Because we have a better chance of fixing the issues of malpractice than we do inequalities that will always exist. Medical school seems to tend to turn even the most idealistic person into a realist. Then again, some people are just masochists who enjoy the frustration of drilling through a mountain with their forehead.

You seems to be one of the only people in this thread who is not afraid of admitting we will never overcome these issues. Inequalities are a natural state of affairs because you can not force people to be 100% fair to everyone else. Someone has to lose, and most people will do anything to avoid it being them.

If you wish for an example of this: you need only to look at the people in this thread. Each of them, nearly to the last person, is trying to paint themselves as the most altruistic one here, the one who most "gets" what Farmer and his cronies are saying. It is nothing more than self promotion that promotes inequality, the very thing that they claim to despise. One can not disparage one form of inequality whilst acting to propagate another. I am an advocate of the theory that it is better to be an open sinner than to be a false saint.

 

[Dienekes]

In case people are interested, PIH recently started a student e-mail list. You can find it at www.pih.org on the left hand sidebar. The purpose of the list is to connect students from all across the country and share advice about public health careers, projects, and everything PIH.

This group is NOT moderated by PIH, but rather students dedicated to the kind of work done by PIH.

🙄

 

[estairella]

recognition and taking credit leads to vanity and impure motives. glory will corrupt even the most genuine of altruists. i equate heroism with altruism, because i believe a hero is someone who does nothing out of vainity or pursuit of fame and desires no reward for the work he/she has done.

So according to you, someone who grows and protects E. coli (an altruistic act, as it helps the welfare of a fellow living organism), and who does it not out of vanity or pursuit of fame and desires no reward for the work he/she has done is a hero...

And conversely, the discoverer of penicillin (Fleming), despite helping save countless lives, should not be regarded as such because he liked getting paid for his job as a scientific researcher?

👍

 

[crixyphoid]

Because we have a better chance of fixing the issues of malpractice than we do inequalities that will always exist.

you don't- unless your in health policy/admin or health law.

Medical school seems to tend to turn even the most idealistic person into a realist. Then again, some people are just masochists who enjoy the frustration of drilling through a mountain with their forehead.

they also prefer optimists so residency has something to take away from you 🙂

You seems to be one of the only people in this thread who is not afraid of admitting we will never overcome these issues. Equalities are a natural state of affairs because you can not force people to be 100% fair to everyone else. Someone has to lose, and most people will do anything to avoid it being them.

doesn't mean that the gap has to be so colossal.

If you wish for an example of this: you need only to look at the people in this thread. Each of them, nearly to the last man, is trying to paint themselves as the most altruistic one here, the one who most "gets" what Farmer and his lackies are saying. It is nothing more than self promotion that promotes inequality, the very thing that they claim to despise. One can not disparage one form of inequality whilst acting to propogate another. I am an advocate of the theory that it is better to be an open sinner than to be a false saint.

soooo---you are very different from all the rest in this post? Does that mean you admit that you are sinner propagating inequality?

 

[Kikaku21]

Because we have a better chance of fixing the issues of malpractice than we do inequalities that will always exist. Medical school seems to tend to turn even the most idealistic person into a realist. Then again, some people are just masochists who enjoy the frustration of drilling through a mountain with their forehead.

You seems to be one of the only people in this thread who is not afraid of admitting we will never overcome these issues. Equalities are a natural state of affairs because you can not force people to be 100% fair to everyone else. Someone has to lose, and most people will do anything to avoid it being them.

If you wish for an example of this: you need only to look at the people in this thread. Each of them, nearly to the last person, is trying to paint themselves as the most altruistic one here, the one who most "gets" what Farmer and his cronies are saying. It is nothing more than self promotion that promotes inequality, the very thing that they claim to despise. One can not disparage one form of inequality whilst acting to propagate another. I am an advocate of the theory that it is better to be an open sinner than to be a false saint.

This is mindless dribble.

There are 2 billion "losers" on the planet right now.

PIH has helped a tremendous number of people. They have changed the statistics on healthcare in the central plains of Haiti. Who cares about what everyone says? Who cares about saints and sinners? Look at the numbers. Look at the results. Paul Farmer has made some real changes. Why don't you stop playing good vs. evil and pay attention to the facts.

No, better yet. Keep being an idiot.

 

[jochi1543]

Thanks, I'll check that out. As far as the Eastern Hemisphere, I think Afghanistan must take the cake.

When I was there, Doctors Without Borders got ambushed and now they won't even go there. Not much good to say about the health system of a country where the average life expectancy is 44.

I bet Bhutan also has potential there, as of course places like Burundi.

 

[Dienekes]

you don't- unless your in health policy/admin or health law.

Who says we won't be? I think we each have a better chance to excel in this than to have some half-baked book written about our actions trying to play Albert Schweitzer.

they also prefer optimists so residency has something to take away from you

Well, I happen to be an optimist. It's just that one does not have to be the "kick me and watch glitter fly" form of an optimist. These are the type of people that piss me off because they border on the delusional a good portion of the time.

doesn't mean that the gap has to be so colossal.

You close one crack and another one will widen. It is just the natural state of things. One group will always trample on another, take from them, etc. Often times the fact that we humans are among the smartest creatures on this planet (at least some of us, including present company for the most part) simply means we are more creative, underhanded and deceptive in the way we go about these actions. If people would accept that most people, given the right amount of provocation, will do damn near anything to their fellow man the world would probably be a lot less disappointing to so many idealists.

Does that mean you admit that you are sinner propagating inequality?

No, it means I recognize when something is akin to pissing on the fire at the scene of a ruptured gas pipeline where shutting off the flow is not an option.

 

[Kikaku21]

Who says we won't be? I think we each have a better chance to excel in this than to have some half-baked book written about our actions trying to play Albert Schweitzer.



Well, I happen to be an optimist. It's just that one does not have to be the "kick me and watch glitter fly" form of an optimist. These are the type of people that piss me off because they border on the delusional a good portion of the time.



You close one crack and another one will widen. It is just the natural state of things. One group will always trample on another, take from them, etc. Often times the fact that we humans are among the smartest creatures on this planet (at least some of us, including present company for the most part) simply means we are more creative, underhanded and deceptive in the way we go about these actions. If people would accept that most people, given the right amount of provocation, will do damn near anything to their fellow man the world would probably be a lot less disappointing to so many idealists.



No, it means I recognize when something is akin to pissing on the fire at the scene of a ruptured gas pipeline where shutting off the flow is not an option.

Please pick up an economics textbook and read about social mobility.

 

[Dienekes]

You can not, in any system with limited resources (i.e., the real world) achieve social mobility across groups without result in a negative effect in another group. This is especially true when you are dealing with groups that think the best way to achieve upward mobility is by slaughtering the tribe down the road in order to get their land or simply because they don't like them (i.e. the Balkans, Rwanda, Darfur, etc). Unless you think you can completely reform entire cultures, in which case, I suggest you pick up the DSM-IV and figure out which personality disorder involving megalomania best describes that.

This is mindless dribble.

Only because you disagree and have nothing better to refute my opinions with.

PIH has helped a tremendous number of people.

This is one area where we agree.

Who cares about saints and sinners?

It's called an analogy.

They have changed the statistics on healthcare in the central plains of Haiti.

Yes, and your point? Once they go away, things will revert back to what amounts to a social black hole where people have little chance of escape.

No, better yet. Keep being an idiot.

I've been civil. I ask that you do the same. There is no need for name calling.

Why don't you stop playing good vs. evil and pay attention to the facts.

I am not playing good vs. evil. This is idealistic nonsense versus reality. Yes, you can pull off rather dramatic changes in the short term. The problem occurs in the long term though. Nothing is really changed because it would take reforming entire societies, including those (normally very numerous, very well-armed and often very cranky) portions of them that do no wish to be bothered or brought down to a level playing field. You can produce decent improvements in quality of life, but only so long as there is external support.

There exist minimal, if any, economic supports that are sustainable from a point of self-sufficiency. Ongoing donations from guilt-riddened, mostly white, liberals do not constitute self-sufficiency. I have yet to see any of these countries approach anything even distinguishable from near total reliance on outside support. Does this make me sad? Yes, in a way it does. Does it make me want to run and hop on a plane to a third world nation and deliver care as an actual medical professional? I already have done that, but not because I think I will change anything beyond an individual level.

Oh, and by the way, it's drivel.

 

[45408]

No, better yet. Keep being an idiot.

Ah, yes, the good old fashioned way to reinforce your point.

 

[MattD]

recognition and taking credit leads to vanity and impure motives. glory will corrupt even the most genuine of altruists. i equate heroism with altruism, because i believe a hero is someone who does nothing out of vainity or pursuit of fame and desires no reward for the work he/she has done. by going public with your acts of goodwill and charity you have already reaped your reward, thus largely nullifying your goal to do something good without selfish intent. i feel like im just restating my osu essay.

recognition and taking credit leads to getting funding for your project. Being secretive and pretending you aren't doing anything leads to your project not getting any cash flow and you losing the ABILITY to do anything.

 

[MattD]

Who says we won't be? I think we each have a better chance to excel in this than to have some half-baked book written about our actions trying to play Albert Schweitzer.

Are you implying that Dr. Schweitzer is worthy of the praise bestowed upon him, and Dr. Farmer is not? What makes the difference? Is it that Schweitzer is dead and Farmer is not? Give him time... Is it that Schweitzer has a Nobel and Farmer does not? That may or may not be rectified one day. What else is there, exactly? Both spent their lives serving the destitute and the unjustly burdened. Both were well known in their day. They have somewhat similar beliefs, what with Schweitzer's 'reverance for life' and the rule of rescue philosophy Farmer practices. I'm not trying to stroke anyone's, erm, ego, but it seems to me that either there ARE heroes in the world, or there are not. If there are, I think there's no question as to whether the Schweitzers AND the Farmers qualify.


And I include Jeff in that statement. Sting is awesome.

 

[Dienekes]

Are you implying that Dr. Schweitzer is worthy of the praise bestowed upon him, and Dr. Farmer is not?

Nope, I was just using Dr. Schweitzer as an example so as not to sound like a broken record, parroting Dr. Farmer's name. The point, not an implication, is that one would probably find it far easier to achieve a position of high regard in health policy or administration as opposed to doing humanitarian work.

What makes the difference?

Nothing. They both do what they feel is right and people benefit from it.

Is it that Schweitzer is dead and Farmer is not? Give him time...

Nope.

Is it that Schweitzer has a Nobel and Farmer does not?

No, although I don't think Farmer has done enough to warrant a Nobel prize so far.

What else is there, exactly?

Uh.....*thinks* You extrapolating and making an assumption that just because I used Albert Schweitzer's name as an example rather than Paul Farmer that I was denigrating the latter, most likely because I am one of the few here who would bend down and kiss his feet (or any other part of his anatomy) for a letter of recommendation.

it seems to me that either there ARE heroes in the world, or there are not.

There are.....I have worked with quite a few of them- namely the volunteer firefighters I had the honor and pleasure of leading and working with (hopefully earning their respect in the process, as they certainly earned my respect). I think we just differ in our definition of what a hero is. A nerdy doc from Boston doesn't pass my acid test for heroism, not even if he saved a million Haitians, any more than having served as a firefighter gives me the right to call myself a hero (which I do not; in fact, I point out whenever someone has called me a hero for being firefighter: "No, I work with some but I am not one").

 

[Dienekes]

Sting is awesome.

And a very nice guy from what I have heard.

 

[Old Grunt]

I bet Bhutan also has potential there, as of course places like Burundi.

I am sure you are right. Of course, I never got to spend time there on Uncle Sam's dime.

 

[Dienekes]

I am sure you are right. Of course, I never got to spend time there on Uncle Sam's dime.

I have to agree that Afghanistan has some of the worst conditions I have seen.

 

[Old Grunt]

I have to agree that Afghanistan has some of the worst conditions I have seen.

Where were you at? I was in the Paktika Province, which is the province south of Paktia where Khost and Jalalabad are.

 

[Arjunsi]

by going public with your acts of goodwill and charity you have already reaped your reward, thus largely nullifying your goal to do something good without selfish intent.

Yeah man, you tell them! Its just like that Red Cross organization and that skinny indian dude, Ghandi. I mean, why else would they be so public about their efforts if not to champion themselves as heroes? I can think of no other plausible reason why an individual or a humanitarian organization would consider advertising their projects to others. Surely they can't think that increasing public awareness will bolster support for their efforts.

Paul Farmer is probably just spending all his time relaxing with dying orphans in Haiti and Africa because he wants to avoid the long on-call hours he would have to put up with in the US.

 

[Dienekes]

Where were you at? I was in the Paktika Province, which is the province south of Paktia where Khost and Jalalabad are.

I mostly flew in and out of Bagram as part of a Critical Care Air Transport Team. There were a few occasions where I had to go out with a group to help transport critical patients from forward operations.

 

[Depakote]

let's keep the discussion in this thread civil, thanks.

 

[Old Grunt]

I mostly flew in and out of Bagram as part of a Critical Care Air Transport Team. There were a few occasions where I had to go out with a group to help transport critical patients from forward operations.

Flying into Bagram on a fixed wing is truly a hair raising experience that everyone should experience at least once in their life time.

At any rate, thanks for what you did. If you were there any time from March '04 to March '05, you most likely were involved in treating my brothers in arms and casualties from incidents I was involved in.

 

[limpkitty]

Please pick up an economics textbook and read about social mobility.

Pick up a copy of the recent study showing that the US has less social mobility than any of the socialist countries in western europe. Horatio Alger here we come!

 

[Dienekes]

Flying into Bagram on a fixed wing is truly a hair raising experience that everyone should experience at least once in their life time.

This is true.

At any rate, thanks for what you did. If you were there any time from March '04 to March '05, you most likely were involved in treating my brothers in arms and casualties from incidents I was involved in.

I was already out of the service by then. I seperated in March 2003. Thank you for your service as well.

 

[qtpai]

Although, I'm sure many of you are familiar with this book (especially those of you with a public/international health inclination) it has recently been brought to my attention that not everyone is.

Mountains Beyond Mountains is a book exploring the work of Dr. Paul Farmer (http://www.hms.harvard.edu/dsm/WorkFiles/html/people/faculty/PaulFarmer.html), a harvard trained infectious disease specialist who has worked in Haiti for 25 years. For those of you that don't keep up with global health statistics, Haiti has the worst health condition in the western hemisphere. Dr. Farmer first visited Haiti during a gap year before entering harvard med. He continued to fly to Haiti and work in a clinic there throughout med school, flying back to take exams. Eventually he established Partners in Health (www.pih.org) with a colleague of his and help from many other individuals. This organization has grown to treat hundreds of thousands (maybe more) people a year. Dr. Farmer and PIH has shown that top quality care can be delivered in resource poor settings.

I read this book when I was a freshman in college, and then again twice more. I've also read books by Paul Farmer that are incredibly interesting. I can't recommend Mountains Beyond Mountains highly enough. It is impossible to read this book without being affected and it might just redefine what medicine is for you. I would love to hear from people that have read this and follow his work (and others like him), and the reactions of people who read this subsequently. Also I'd like to hear what people thought of his books, Pathologies of Power, Infections and Inequality et al.

I read it this past summer, and I was profoundly affected by it. I've always been an extremely hard worker, and even a sociable person, but to read about a doc like Dr. Farmer, who brings together these qualities with a god-like work ethic inspired me to redouble my efforts and bring my performance to new levels. Along with a couple other books (Leo Strauss's Natural Law and History and some books on psychiatry) and experiences (volunteering in a psychiatric hospital), my performance has reached new heights and I feel a new, profound passion for life and medicine. He is a major role model for me.

 

[Dienekes]

I read it this past summer, and I was profoundly affected by it. I've always been an extremely hard worker, and even a sociable person, but to read about a doc like Dr. Farmer, who brings together these qualities with a god-like work ethic inspired me to redouble my efforts and bring my performance to new levels. Along with a couple other books (Leo Strauss's Natural Law and History and some books on psychiatry) and experiences (volunteering in a psychiatric hospital), my performance has reached new heights and I feel a new, profound passion for life and medicine. He is a major role model for me.

*farts loudly to clear smoke from rectum*

 

[qtpai]

Nope, I was just using Dr. Schweitzer as an example so as not to sound like a broken record, parroting Dr. Farmer's name. The point, not an implication, is that one would probably find it far easier to achieve a position of high regard in health policy or administration as opposed to doing humanitarian work.


Nothing. They both do what they feel is right and people benefit from it.


Nope.


No, although I don't think Farmer has done enough to warrant a Nobel prize so far.


Uh.....*thinks* You extrapolating and making an assumption that just because I used Albert Schweitzer's name as an example rather than Paul Farmer that I was denigrating the latter, most likely because I am one of the few here who would bend down and kiss his feet (or any other part of his anatomy) for a letter of recommendation.


There are.....I have worked with quite a few of them- namely the volunteer firefighters I had the honor and pleasure of leading and working with (hopefully earning their respect in the process, as they certainly earned my respect). I think we just differ in our definition of what a hero is. A nerdy doc from Boston doesn't pass my acid test for heroism, not even if he saved a million Haitians, any more than having served as a firefighter gives me the right to call myself a hero (which I do not; in fact, I point out whenever someone has called me a hero for being firefighter: "No, I work with some but I am not one").

You are denigrating Paul Farmer and have done it repeatedly. It's obvious that you disagree with his politics, that's fine. If it's because you're secretly resentful, that's not.

Your "definitions" of hero are your means of promoting your perspective of how the world should be, which is utterly misinformed. You but reluctantly offer your approval of PIH, and I read "reluctantly" into your post because you previous to this openly stated that you thought Paul Farmer was self-promoting himself "playing" Albert Schweitzer, and it's obvious that you disagree with the thrust of the work, as per your "critique" (I'm using this term lightly) of social change. I find it to be absolutely absurd and quite radical that you would ignore his accomplishments as some kind of naive idealism.

I also find absurd the lack of consistency that social change can't produce any meaningful decrease in social inequality (because somehow one decrease in equality brings about, by universal law, an increase in inequality somewhere else), yet at the same time advocating that structural changes are necessary to bring about long-term changes (while denying that structural changes are at all feasible, which they are).

By the way, the author of "some half-baked book" was a Pulitzer Prize winner.

 

[Dienekes]

You are denigrating Paul Farmer and have done it repeatedly.

You missed the part where I said I respected his work, although I don't agree with his assessment of the impact.

Your "definitions" of hero are your means of promoting your perspective of how the world should be, which is utterly misinformed.

Yeah, yeah.....I'm a horrible human being because I don't think we should all be dancing in a drum circle and talking about how we should save the world. You can be a great person, and not be a hero. If anyone who does anything slightly noteworthy is called a hero, it reduces the term to the point of being meaningless. THAT is what I am promoting.

By the way, the author of "some half-baked book" was a Pulitzer Prize winner.

Your point? Have you seen some of the other things that people have received Pulitzers for?

I also find absurd the lack of consistency that social change can't produce any meaningful decrease in social inequality

Yes, but social change requires major changes in the way entire groups think. That is hard to pull off in most settings where the people are uneducated and potentially hostile. There is nothing absurb about that.

because somehow one decrease in equality brings about, by universal law, an increase in inequality somewhere else

You make it sound like it's an interconnected event. I never said it was. It is like battling brush fires all summer long during a drought. You never really seem to make any headway because you're always running from one spot the next trying to put it out. Then the place you just left rekindles and so on. I said that inequality is a natural product of human nature, because we are constantly trying to improve our stead in life which makes us inequal to someone else.

structural changes are necessary to bring about long-term changes

I never advocated it. I said they were needed in order to make the long term changes possible, and therefore there is a lack of feasibility because of the factors previously discussed.

At least Drogba is more articulate in his rebuttals.....you're is simply like a little child getting mad and stomping his or her feet with her fingers in their ears going "LAAALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA I can't hear you LALALALALALALALA You're wrong LALALALALALALALAALALALALALALALA....." I assume this is just a lack of experience at how to properly debate.

 

[Drogba]

At least Drogba is more articulate in his rebuttals.

I've actually only posted the opening and one other post in this thread. Unless he has been following other threads containing our discussions this is probably going to be confusing. We've obviously spent a great deal of time talking about similar topics across numerous threads and as a result you've gotten confused as to where I've said what :].

 

[Aynsl156]

Holy crap, I had no idea infections and inequalities was written by THE Paul Farmer. That was one of my references for this British history paper I was writing. Wow, I'm amazed his work is so applicable to the humanities. Then again, he's something of an anthropologist as well as a physician.

 

[Drogba]

Holy crap, I had no idea infections and inequalities was written by THE Paul Farmer. That was one of my references for this British history paper I was writing. Wow, I'm amazed his work is so applicable to the humanities. Then again, he's something of an anthropologist as well as a physician.

If by something of an anthropologist you mean he holds a PhD in medical anthropology from Harvard and has won the Margaret Mead Award (one of the most prestigious awards for applied anthropology), which he won for writing Aids and Accusations, an expansion of his PhD thesis, then yes he is something of an anthropologist ;]. What was your history paper about? Britain was not overly involved with Haiti as far as I remember of my Haitian history.

 

[Aynsl156]

This paper was over two years ago, so I'm a bit fuzzy on the details. I was writing about the great plague of London, trying to make an argument about English class structure and its influence on infection rates, and vice versa.

Man, that was a while ago. 🙂

You know you're a geeky pre-med when you try to tie in a disease with every humanities class. I wrote another one about the portrayal of mental illness in Elizabethan and Jacobean theater, and the history of hysteria as reflected in Jane Eyre.