Dropping Out of Law School...

[malpractitioner]

Thanks for responses.

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[ZagDoc]

Don't have a lot of knowledge on that sort of situation... but my gut tells me: finish out law school. Its only 18 more months, and if you have a JD in hand they won't care what your grades were. It'd be faster finish your JD then apply to med school then drop out, still carry all that debt, do a two year post-bac, THEN apply.

 

[Law2Doc]

Having completed half of law school, I've come to the realization that I really should have gone into medicine.

While my undergraduate grades are excellent, my law school grades are merely average or worse. I plan to do a post-bac for two years (and hopefully earn good grades). Do medical schools look at law school grades? Will my law school grades have any impact on my admissions, or are they chiefly concerned with my undergrad and post-bac work?

Thank you.

There are many posts similar to yours on the nontrad board (where this post really belongs). Check that out and you likely will find the answers to all your questions.

Bottom line, the law school grades are pretty meaningless if you did well, but can hurt you if you did poorly (regardless of whether you finish or not). But in terms of GPA, med schools will focus primarily on ug and postbac GPA. Jumping from professional degree program to professional degree program without completing what you started will definitely hurt -- schools are very wary of "flighty" individuals and view non-completion of a degree program as a huge indicator as to whether you will finish what you start in med school.

 

[azntxn]

There are many posts similar to yours on the nontrad board (where this post really belongs). Check that out and you likely will find the answers to all your questions.

Bottom line, the law school grades are pretty meaningless if you did well, but can hurt you if you did poorly (regardless of whether you finish or not). But in terms of GPA, med schools will focus primarily on ug and postbac GPA. Jumping from professional degree program to professional degree program without completing what you started will definitely hurt -- schools are very wary of "flighty" individuals and view non-completion of a degree program as a huge indicator as to whether you will finish what you start in med school.

i agree with him. aside from wasting a lot of time, you'll be labeled a DROP OUT. i think the admissions committee cares a lot about your ability to graduate (ie, discipline, endurance 😀, the brains).

 

[J ROD]

no matter what finish law school and then go after med

 

[Law2Doc]

Moving to nontrad board where career path changes are more routinely discussed.

 

[GH253]

good decision to switch... i used to be a paralegal and the law sucks ass!!!

 

[rocketbooster]

aside from law being boring, what the OP really means is the market is so oversaturated with lawyers that it'll be impossible to find a good job when he graduates. he wants to get out now while he can, not waste anytime on a degree that will barely help, and switch to a field that guarantees job security and a decent salary, no matter what kind of doctor you become.

I had a friend got a 41 on his MCAT, started med school at Northwestern, hated it and dropped out after a semester. then, he took the LSAT, did amazing on it, as expected, and got a full ride to a top 20 law school. he being a med school dropout didn't hurt him getting into a top law school. take that for what it's worth.

wasting another 1.5 years on something you hate is rough. if you had 1 semester left, I would definitely say finish up. you're only half way through, though, and your loans will double if you finish. postbacchs are not cheap by any means, either. they cost the same on a yearly basis as med and law school. if I were you, I'd probably drop out and then go into your postbach ASAP. I don't see why an adcom would question your resolve to finish med school if you just completed 2 years of postbach just to make you competitive to apply. don't take my advice as gold, though. it's just another opinion.

 

[bsteves]

I am in a VERY similar situation -- only I got out a semester earlier than you. I have a great UG GPA, and I fared alright compared to the rest of my class. However, because of the crazy law school curve it is a bad GPA. I am now working for awhile to save up some money, and will be doing post-bacc soon.

 

[icalz]

It would look really nice on your amcas app (or tmdsas) to have a law degree. Many schools love the non-trad applicant who went off to do other things and then fell in love with medicine.

If you don't finish your degree it would be a toss-up as to how they would view that..."Did he fail? Was he unable to handle the rigors of law school?" Stuff like that. However, if you do a post-bacc (if you haven't met the requirements yet) and get a good gpa and then do well on the mcat then that may very well compensate for you dropping out. It's hard to say because so much of the admissions process is completely subjective (case by case).

 

[Law2Doc]

aside from law being boring, what the OP really means is the market is so oversaturated with lawyers that it'll be impossible to find a good job when he graduates. he wants to get out now while he can, not waste anytime on a degree that will barely help, and switch to a field that guarantees job security and a decent salary, no matter what kind of doctor you become....

I don't see why an adcom would question your resolve to finish med school if you just completed 2 years of postbach just to make you competitive to apply. don't take my advice as gold, though. it's just another opinion.

First, it's "postbac" (short for post-baccalaureate -- no "h").
Second, your first paragraph above, while perhaps giving good reasons to quit law school, is very possibly the worst and most unsustainable set of reasons to launch into another professional degree such as medicine. Only go into medical school if you have an interest in being a practicing clinician. If you have any other reason as your primary goal, you will not enjoy the decade of schooling and training, and it will simply not end up worth it. If you thought the idea of finishing up another year of law school was bad (which is still the smart move), imagine how it's going to feel if you end up in med school, don't enjoy it, and have many years of schooling and residency ahead of you before you can even think about job security or incomes.

Do not apply to med school for a guarantee of job security, or a decent salary. You are talking about 4 years of education, at about $200k+ in debt (notwithstanding anything the OP already owes on college and law school), followed by about 3-7 years of residency at a relatively minimum wage salary, before you get to a decent income, which may or may not be all that impressive after over a decade of healthcare reforms. And doctors do get fired, medical practices go under, and people do end up having to work crazy hours just to make a decent percentage of what reimbursements used to cover just a few years ago.

As for your notion that jumping from mid-law school into a postbac program is going to satisfy adcoms as to one's persistence in terms of completing things, bear in mind that (1) you may be applying before you complete postbac, and (2) the jumping from school to school smacks of "career student who doesn't know what they want to do", and (3) whether or not one completes a professional degree program is still simply the best evidence med schools have to go on to determine whether someone will complete med school, and (4) doing poorly in law school is itself going to be regarded as a red flag as to how you may do in another professional degree program. If you lost interest and dropped out of law school, that doesn't bode well. MCATs and postbac are meaningless if the adcoms see you as flighty and not serious about becoming a practicing clinician.

Most importantly, you cannot be perceived as running from law, you have to be drawn toward something in medicine. And that something cannot be (1) salary, (2) job security, or (3) being a professional. Your (OP) best game plan should be to stay in law school for now, and find a way to squeeze in some volunteering and shadowing on your breaks, to get a better perspective on medicine and what it really entails. Making the jump from another degree program doesn't give you enough vantage point. Having friends/relatives who are physicians also doesn't give you adequate vantage point. You need some track record of working with physicians, patients and seeing their interrelation. Because medicine is a service industry, first and foremost, and so it doesn't matter if you like the course material, you have to like the patient contact aspects. And honestly, much of that is stuff you could get through law (clients = patients, for the most part). In either field folks are going to come in and complain to you about their problems, and want you to help. Your job in either field is to listen to them and try to help. There are a huge number of transferable skills if you actually first practice law, but I imagine that isn't in the cards for you. Bottom line -- if, as the prior poster suggests, you are looking at medicine as a "way out" of law and still end up being a well paid professional, you probably would be well served to (1) research what medicine is really all about, and (2) take a hard look at PAs, PTs and other non-med school paths which might get you to your target goal without having as much to overcome from your current path.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
If you don't finish your degree it would be a toss-up as to how they would view that..."Did he fail? Was he unable to handle the rigors of law school?" Stuff like that. However, if you do a post-bacc (if you haven't met the requirements yet) and get a good gpa and then do well on the mcat then that may very well compensate for you dropping out. It's hard to say because so much of the admissions process is completely subjective (case by case).

It is very hard to "compensate" for poor graduate grades in recent history with a postbac. Undergrad grades can be averaged out over time, and things that are remote can be brushed aside as you being young and stupid, but a very recent law school stint is going to make everybody's radar. Bear in mind that med schools are getting as many as 10,000 applications, many of them qualified, for about 150 spots, and so it doesn't take very many red flags for them to move on to the next application. If you have poor law school grades, the best way to compensate would be to at least have the law degree. Leaving because you are doing poorly raises lots of concerns, even if you followed it up with a strong postbac effort. You certainly have to work with what you've got, but in most cases the more red flags you can dispense with before you get into full swing with the premed process, the better. Finish the degree, begin doing volunteering/shadowing even before you start the postbac route (to show that you look before you leap and aren't flighty), and think long and hard about your reasons to pursue medicine. If they aren't any better reasons than rocketbooster suggests, then bail immediately and find something that isn't going to leave you miserable. This is too long and hard a path to simply do it for some perceived income and job security down the road. If you do, you will be miserable. The 18 year old premeds are allowed to naively think this way, but nontrad career changers are supposed to research their decisions better and take steps to make themselves happy and fulfill lingering interests, not just have some vague notion that they want to be a "professional".

 

[rocketbooster]

yeah, you're right, Law2doc. job security, decent wage, etc. are not the reasons to go into medicine. however, I assumed the OP actually had a passion for medicine.

for me, it's a no brainer. I love everything about medicine, working with patients, etc. on top of being able to do what I love for my career, I also get job security and a decent wage? what could be better!

as we get older, we realize that job security and a steady income are more important than you think. when you're a premed, it's easy to hate on ppl who say part of the reason you became a doctor is for the money and job security. once we start getting old, though, are independent of our parents, want to raise our own families, etc. then we start to understand the importance of a good, steady job. if you can find a job that you love and has that, how can you honestly be any happier?

the reason I can understand wanting to drop out of law school is because I have been surrounded by law students for this entire year (i start med school this summer). everything i hear about law school absolutely bores me, the practice of law bores me, etc. there is no way I could do law school without hating it every step of the way. so, to be forced to finish another 1.5 years just to get the degree would be unbearable for me. think about how long 1.5 years is...that's a big chunk of your life, especially when you're in your 20s. your 20s are the prime time of your life. you have already spent 1.5 years doing something you know you don't like. spend another 1.5 continuing that? forget that. you have to do what makes you happy, not what will make the adcom happy.

as for trying to volunteer while in law school, good luck. like I said, I am surrounded by law students from a top law school, and I can tell you none of them have time to work or volunteer. if you drop out of law school now, maybe you could get a clinical job or a part-time, unpaid clinical internship. that could count as volunteering, clinical experience, and a salary. do that from now until the postbacc would start next fall and continue to volunteer at the clinic/hospital throughout your postbacc.

but anyways, I agree with Law2Doc, OP, that maybe you should look into another health profession. look into PT, OT, NP, PA, etc. it won't take as long and being a "law school dropout" won't matter as much because the admissions aren't AS competitive as MD.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

as for trying to volunteer while in law school, good luck. ...

I said to do it during breaks -- you don't want to drop out of law school until you are sure, AND you need a track record of "looking before you leap", if you are going to sell the idea that you researched this decision fully before you launched yourself from one degree program to another. If I recall, you get a decent winter break, a spring break, summers, etc off in law school -- PLENTY of time to shadow and volunteer. Med schools hate applicants who dabble -- who try law school for a bit, and then if they don't like it, try postbac, without any great reason for having done so rather than disliking the former. When you graduate from undergrad you are allowed to be a bit unfocused and flighty. But once you are a nontrad, they expect you to be much better informed/researched and to actually spend a lot of time and effort in making career changing decisions. So yes, use breaks during law school to get out there and shadow/volunteer. If that means you have to extend law school to the point of actually graduating to fit in enough breaks, then so be it -- it probably works in your favor.

 

[DrJD]

Just wanted to tell the OP that I dropped out of law school after the first year and am now a first year med student. I'd say it hindered me, but not as much as you might think. With solid undergrad scores, solid post bac scores, and most importantly a great MCAT I think you will find that it won't be too bad.

The MOST important thing, even more important than the MCAT, is to have a good explanation ready for when they ask you why you dropped out of medical school.

Good luck and let me know if you have any specific questions!

 

[J ROD]

Just wanted to tell the OP that I dropped out of law school after the first year and am now a first year med student. I'd say it hindered me, but not as much as you might think. With solid undergrad scores, solid post bac scores, and most importantly a great MCAT I think you will find that it won't be too bad.

The MOST important thing, even more important than the MCAT, is to have a good explanation ready for when they ask you why you dropped out of law school.

Good luck and let me know if you have any specific questions!

I think you meant the bold part?

 

[kia ora]

as for trying to volunteer while in law school, good luck

admittedly, it's been a while since I was a law student but as I recall we had heaps of free (more like wasted/used inefficiently) time. the amount of time we spent drinking, hanging out and taking road trips was pretty significant. someone who is interested in applying to med school definitely could, with some structure and self-discipline, find sufficient time to volunteer and shadow while in law school. I was at a top 5 school, however, and I actually think we had it easier than our counterparts at less-prestigious schools. we knew we were guaranteed good jobs post-graduation, so I think we felt less pressure than we might have otherwise.

as for the whole line of reasoning re: going into medicine for job security and $ as stated more eloquently by others above, that is just ridiculous. as for the market being "oversaturated" with lawyers, all I will say is that if you are good at what you do, you will always have a job

 

[malpractitioner]

...

 

[Law2Doc]

.... I know I'm going into medicine for the right reasons. How many adcomms can say they have an autographed E.R. casting photo of George Clooney? ...

Hopefully you actually have a good reason to be interested in medicine that doesn't relate to TV depictions of medicine. (Thus far you haven't mentioned one, just that you dislike law school). Medicine is nothing like network TV depictions, and adcoms cringe when they hear that applicants were inspired by the various medical shows. I definitely wouldn't mention any TV related motivation -- it does not go well with adcoms. Shadow and volunteer and use these experiences as your knowledge base as to whether medicine is something you might be interested in, not something you saw on TV. And really spend time researching what medicine really is, not what Michael Crichton or other screenwriters depict it as. Because it's far more often draining a pustulent abscess from a homeless dude's rear end than it is saving someone's life or hooking up with a nurse in the call room.

 

[malpractitioner]

...

 

[vin5cent0]

Please don't drop out! My parent's are friends with a guy who went the opposite route as you - did med school, completed residency and decided medicine wasn't for him. He then went and got is JD, and now he earns big, big bucks working as a lawyer as a local medical organization.

 

[rocketbooster]

admittedly, it's been a while since I was a law student

as for the whole line of reasoning re: going into medicine for job security and $ as stated more eloquently by others above, that is just ridiculous. as for the market being "oversaturated" with lawyers, all I will say is that if you are good at what you do, you will always have a job

exactly, it's been a while since you were a law student. things have changed...A LOT. law students from the top law schools are now barely finding jobs because of the economy. the economy was not in a ****hole when you were in law school. I am around law students from a top school 24/7 and barely any of them found any jobs post-graduation. will it get better for them? I hope so.

the truth is, for law, you make the big bucks if you are a partner at a big law firm. how many lawyers become that? very few. yes, you can always find a job by starting your own private practice, but that's not generally what these top law school students want to do. they want the big bucks, which is at the big firms. currently, you have associates being bumped down to entry-level positions because of the economy. so, those entry-level jobs are not available to the freshly graduated lawyers. saying "if you are at the top of your field, then you'll always have a job" is naive. everyone at these top law schools are at the top of their field. the competition only gets harder. as for medicine, most ppl go into private practice so you have more control over your job. most doctors don't work for someone. most lawyers do.

and about the market being over-saturated with lawyers, this is not a statement from my mouth. it is a statement from every current law student and lawyer's mouths.

 

[kia ora]

that's not what I said. I said if you are good at what you do you will always have a job. this is true. you do not have to be "at the top of your field" to have a good job or to be good at what you do. and one thing apparently has not changed: so many law students think working at a big firm is the only way to go. this is extremely narrow-minded. the most recent alumni magazine from my law school noted that something like 95% of last year's graduating class was employed within a few months of graduation. I suspect that at least some of the other 5% is not unable to find employment, but rather continued on in school (LLM or PhD). I'm well aware that the job market isn't as rosy as it was when I graduated from law school. but the OP's apparent rationale for ditching law school and trying medical school instead is that it provides more job security. this seems a drastic move and no doubt with a little time and effort s/he could find a good law job much more easily than s/he could do a post-bacc, apply to med school, attend med school, do residency, et seq.

rocketbooster, for someone who has never done any of it, you have some very strong opinions about law school/practicing law. this is not a criticism. I like people who have strong opinons. but I like when people have concrete reasons for those opinions.

 

[lawyerdoc2b]

Having completed half of law school, I've come to the realization that I really should have gone into medicine.

While my undergraduate grades are excellent, my law school grades are merely average or worse. I plan to do a post-bac for two years (and hopefully earn good grades). Do medical schools look at law school grades? Will my law school grades have any impact on my admissions, or are they chiefly concerned with my undergrad and post-bac work?

Thank you.

First year Law School is the pits. Second year is a little better. The third year you have a lot of elective course choices. I have been a lawyer for 21 years. I'm going to medical school in August 2010. You need to finish Law School to show the Admissions Committee that you can finish what you started. 18 months and you are done.

Jumping from Law School to a post bac won't answer the question of whether you can finish what you started. Use your last year of law school to take some health care related legal classes. When you get your J.D. in May or June 2011 take the Bar exam in July. You will not regret it.

 

[Law2Doc]

...most doctors don't work for someone. most lawyers do....

This isn't a true statement. Most doctors work for hospitals or partnerships/practices. There are actually more solo practitioner lawyers than there are solo doctors.

 

[Law2Doc]

First year Law School is the pits. Second year is a little better. The third year you have a lot of elective course choices. I have been a lawyer for 21 years. I'm going to medical school in August 2010. You need to finish Law School to show the Admissions Committee that you can finish what you started. 18 months and you are done.

Jumping from Law School to a post bac won't answer the question of whether you can finish what you started. Use your last year of law school to take some health care related legal classes. When you get your J.D. in May or June 2011 take the Bar exam in July. You will not regret it.

I agree with everything except whether you want to take the bar if you don't plan to practice. That only sets you up for getting hit with annual dues, and doesn't aid your competitiveness for med school. The bar will still be there if you decide later to take it. And work in some shadowing/volunteering over the breaks during that remaining 18 months. Jumping from mid law school is simply too big a red flag for many med schools and it's worth putting in the last year if only to allay these concerns, let alone the fact that your vagueness about "why medicine" suggests that perhaps you need the time to shadow and figure out if this jump is really the right move.

 

[malpractitioner]

I agree with everything except whether you want to take the bar if you don't plan to practice. That only sets you up for getting hit with annual dues, and doesn't aid your competitiveness for med school. The bar will still be there if you decide later to take it. And work in some shadowing/volunteering over the breaks during that remaining 18 months. Jumping from mid law school is simply too big a red flag for many med schools and it's worth putting in the last year if only to allay these concerns, let alone the fact that your vagueness about "why medicine" suggests that perhaps you need the time to shadow and figure out if this jump is really the right move.

Thanks, Law2Doc. I agree, I should definitely shadow a doc to make sure that I know what I'm getting into.

... I have been a lawyer for 21 years...

Why the career change after 21 years? I admire your determination in making such a major change at this point in your life.

 

[futureboy]

I agree with everything except whether you want to take the bar if you don't plan to practice. That only sets you up for getting hit with annual dues, and doesn't aid your competitiveness for med school. The bar will still be there if you decide later to take it.

This is a good point, but there is something to be said for taking the bar exam when the material is fresh. I can't imagine taking it 1, 2, or 3+ years out of law school.

As for bar dues, they aren't that much; mine are $350/year. It's less for newer lawyers. Continuing legal education can get pricey, but you can go on inactive status to avoid this expense.

 

[kia ora]

This is a good point, but there is something to be said for taking the bar exam when the material is fresh. I can't imagine taking it 1, 2, or 3+ years out of law school.

I took (and passed) one state's bar exam shortly after graduating, then five years later took (and passed) the exam in another state. it really wasn't that difficult. but I completely agree that the OP would do well to take the bar exam the summer after law school graduation. if the med school thing doesn't work out, studying for the bar then would be even more tedious and depressing than it would have been immediately after finishing law school

 

[grt398]

Just to add another voice into the mix, I also left law school though after only 1 semester to pursue a job in finance that I held for 3 years. I asked the same question before I started this whole process and if it's of any comfort, a number of physicians I've spoken with, including some who sat on adcoms for med school, have been very positive about my background, despite the circuitous path.

They did emphasize that I will need to continue showing my dedication to medicine and so I now work full time as a clinical researcher at an academic hospital and will have worked as one for 2.5 years by the time I apply to med school. If you can get a similar job after you finish law school I would strongly recommend it as it will also give you the opportunity to publish, which is helpful for your app. Just be prepared to really push yourself if you're working full time + doing your post bacc as you need A's in your classes, as I'm sure you know.

If you have any further questions feel free to PM me.

 

[tucker27705]

A surprising number of law docs here giving advice on an interesting question. Unless I skimmed over and did not realize someone else said it, I am also surprised that none of these "lawyers" have given you the typical lawyerly advice that, it depends.
Every situation is different. How badly do you really want to quit and why? That is the answer to your question. Not what everyone else thinks. Its your time and your life. Answer the question yourself, then justify that answer in your applications, if you have to. By that I mean, if you eventually actually apply to medical school.
T, JD (loved law school, hated the practice of law x 3 years)/MD (hated medical school and residency had its moments)/Anesthesiologist (loving life)
By the way, I didn't have much free time in law school for volunteering, but I had even less in med school. I had tons of time for volunteering while doing post-bac crap.