drug test to start third year?

[kjoel]

I have been wondering if any schools out there have drug tests before starting third year. I had a moment of weakness during usmle study, and smoked a joint with a friend three weeks ago. It will be over a month by the time I start third year orientation, so everything would be out of my system, but the worry in the back of my mind is still there. I don't need a lecture on the evils of weed, I'd just like some info. thx.

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[FatKid]

I try not to resort to personal attacks on this forum, but you sir are a tool.

relax. nothing will happen.

 

[psychforme]

Yes, google "hair drug test". Not out of your system unless you shave off all your hair (including genital because they know all the tricks). If they find out your medical career is finito and you go to jail for a looong time. So, you better start shaving.

 

[tdd340]

Yes, google "hair drug test". Not out of your system unless you shave off all your hair (including genital because they know all the tricks). If they find out your medical career is finito and you go to jail for a looong time. So, you better start shaving.

If you fail a drug test you do not go to jail for any amount of time

 

[kjoel]

thanks guys! you're awesome!

seriously, i know what a drug test is. i'm wondering if it is common for shools to do one before starting clinic. it's a legit concern i have, and this seemed like the best place to come for an answer. i dont know how asking a question is being a tool. thanks for being smartasses

 

[alwaysaangel]

From what I've heard not many schools do it and if they did you would have probably heard about it coming up from classmates/older students. You're probably ok. Also, hair testing is pretty expensive, if you went to a school that was going to bother with drug testing I imagine they'd keep it simple and do random pee tests.

I personally wish they would. Far too many people still smoking in MS1 and 2, regularly. I worry that if you haven't grown up by 23-25 you probably aren't going to stop in clerkships and residency and I certainly wouldn't want a doctor that smokes weed working on me.

 

[McGillGrad]

The hospitals usually require it along with a background check.

I would flush your system, start doing some cardio etc...

Blazing is great, but not during clinicals and residency... people will depend on you and you're not at your peak if you smoke regularly

 

[McGillGrad]

I personally wish they would. Far too many people still smoking in MS1 and 2, regularly. I worry that if you haven't grown up by 23-25 you probably aren't going to stop in clerkships and residency and I certainly wouldn't want a doctor that smokes weed working on me.

You sound like a real buzz-kill. Get over yourself. When you grow up, you'll realize that your peers will be using so many substances (legal and illegal) while "working" on patients that you would be ecstatic to be treated by one who only smokes weed.

 

[alwaysaangel]

You sound like a real buzz-kill. Get over yourself. When you grow up, you'll realize that your peers will be using so many substances (legal and illegal) while "working" on patients that you would be ecstatic to be treated by one who only smokes weed.

And that would end if they start random drug testing. Sorry, there are certain jobs where its fine to be a pothead, and there are some that its not. Doctoring is one where its not.

I'm really not opposed to people using drugs, people can do what they like in their personal life as long as it doesn't affect me. But doctors are expected to be able to focus on patient care and react quickly in emergency situations. Someone who is smoking pot cannot do that they way they should be able to.

But we are both entitled to our opinions and realistically (and unfortunately) I don't see any signs of drug testing doctors in the near future.

 

[indo]

 

[indo]

Third guy from the right, "lil wayne", is f'd in that last picture.

 

[McGillGrad]

You are stating an opinion, I am stating facts. There is a difference.

As you might know, substance abuse rates are high for physicians. If it were so deleterious to the profession, we would have random drug tests already. And again, there is an ocean of difference between being a pothead and partaking in the green every-so-often.

And that would end if they start random drug testing. Sorry, there are certain jobs where its fine to be a pothead, and there are some that its not. Doctoring really isn't one of them.

But we are both entitled to our opinions and realistically I don't see any signs of drug testing doctors in the near future.

 

[kjoel]

thanks for the real opinions, guys. i agree with both of you. treating patients while intoxicated on anything is doing them an injustice. at the same time, a joint to calm myself while freaking out about usmle isn't hurting anyone but possibly myself. but my question isn't necessarily about that, it is about the actual practices of drug testing before and during third year.

 

[McGillGrad]

thanks for the real opinions, guys. i agree with both of you. treating patients while intoxicated on anything is doing them an injustice. at the same time, a joint to calm myself while freaking out about usmle isn't hurting anyone but possibly myself. but my question isn't necessarily about that, it is about the actual practices of drug testing before and during third year.

I know that I was tested by the hospitals due to their policies. You should probably contact the hospital and ask them because "you are on pseudoephidrine" and wanted to make sure they would know about it before you're tested. They will reveal whether they test, or not, with their response.

 

[alwaysaangel]

You are stating an opinion, I am stating facts. There is a difference.

As you might know, substance abuse rates are high for physicians. If it were so deleterious to the profession, we would have random drug tests already. And again, there is an ocean of difference between being a pothead and partaking in the green every-so-often.

Ok. Yours look like an opinion too but if you say so...

I agree with you, theres a huge difference. And in my original post I was talking about students who did it regularly. And I mean OFTEN. Kind of scary.

Yes, I know drug abuse is rampant and they are starting to look at it. You don't really know if its deleterious or not, because I don't think they've looked at it hard enough and there are plenty of people who are functional addicts for all sorts of drugs. But you have to admit if your family member coded and you found out after they died that the doctor was high on pot - you would have to wonder if your loved one maybe would have lived if they had had a different doctor.

 

[Bacchus]

I have to agree with alwaysaangel here. OP, stop. Its time to grow up. Is the use prevalent among physicians? Yes. But, why subject yourself to possible self-harm in terms of job less, punishment, etc? The only reason physician's aren't incredibly harmed is because of the high demand for us, imo. Hospitals/etc would rather issue a slap on the wrist than job termination or the like. Give it up, be the "role model."

 

[McGillGrad]

Fair enough. I admit that I would not want anyone who abused anything treating my loved ones and there isn't enough research.

although, a drink doctor is probably worse than a high one

Ok. Yours look like an opinion too but if you say so...

I agree with you, theres a huge difference. And in my original post I was talking about students who did it regularly. And I mean OFTEN. Kind of scary.

Yes, I know drug abuse is rampant and they are starting to look at it. You don't really know if its deleterious or not, because I don't think they've looked at it hard enough and there are plenty of people who are functional addicts for all sorts of drugs. But you have to admit if your family member coded and you found out after they died that the doctor was high on pot - you would have to wonder if your loved one maybe would have lived if they had had a different doctor.

 

[alwaysaangel]

Fair enough. I admit that I would not want anyone who abused anything treating my loved ones and there isn't enough research.

although, a drink doctor is probably worse than a high one

Oh yeah, drunk is definitely worse.

It would be interesting to see them try to study this. I envision something a lot like the baseball thing. Promised anonymity for the sake of a study and then all hell breaks loose a few years later as it becomes a witch hunt using results that should have never been released or attached to people's name in the first place.

 

[Rollo]

Third guy from the right, "lil wayne", is f'd in that last picture.

ROFL @ that dude AND the dude in the orange next to him....where does that guy think he is...dolce & gabbana?? "Hey gurlfriends...check out the sale on those awesome handbags...."

HAHA...that picture made my day! Thanks for posting it...

😆

 

[ChandutheMagici]

To the original poster,

First of all, don't let anyone try to judge you in this forum. I guarantee you that most everyone has been some form of intoxicated at least some time during their medical school career. Medical school is stressful and hey, having a joint may not be the best coping mechanism, but you're far from being a deviant child (as some have implied). Statistically speaking, marijuana is by far a safer choice than alcohol (http://www.saferchoice.org/content/view/24/53/).

On that note, I'd like to say, I would choose the doctor who smokes pot occasionally over some of the raving alcoholics I've seen in the medical field (and that's just from shadowing, I don't start for another 2 weeks).

Now, as to your original question, most hospitals I've seen (and the one I'll probably be at) have a drug test the third year. There are plenty of tests you could do, but let's face it, hospitals are going with the cheap **** because they don't like to spend money. So you can throw a hair follicle test out of the water. Saliva, while cheap, has a fairly high standard of error. So I'd bet they're going to throw a pee test at you. If that's the case it boils down to a couple of questions.

1. How much did you smoke?
2. Do you smoke regularly?
3. How fat are you?

The more you've been smoking the longer it will stay in your system (because of the buildup in your fat cells). If it is a one time thing, I really don't think you have anything to worry about. Particularly if you're not an overweight person. Drink lots of water, exercise, and relax.

 

[indo]

In all seriousness, I know of a family practice clinic that makes the students pass drug tests before their rotation...so it is always a possibility.

 

[SoCuteMD]

You are stating an opinion, I am stating facts. There is a difference.

As you might know, substance abuse rates are high for physicians. If it were so deleterious to the profession, we would have random drug tests already. And again, there is an ocean of difference between being a pothead and partaking in the green every-so-often.

You should take that sentence into the anesthesia forums, where physicians have actually been the ones to find their lifeless colleagues after an overdose. See what kind of response to that cavalier attitude you get there.

 

[Counterstrain]

a

 

[SoCuteMD]

I think you just proved the point being made... DUH! As for myself; I'd personally rather get my runny nose treated by a guy who smokes pot: Versus a Heroin-head putting me under anesthesia (but that's a distinct possibility despite my wishes). Furthermore, just because you're a doctor doesn't necessarily mean you have to deal with "emergency situations". I mean how many "emergency" acne breakouts does the average dermatologist deal with in a day. The pathologist better be more careful.... Oh yeah his patients are already DEAD or biopsied. I personally don't smoke, but I don't pretend that it's any worse than all of the pharmaceutical drugs / alcohol that physicians and other heatlh care workers abuse.

I'm not sure how it proves that drug abuse is not deleterious to the profession, but nice try there. We weren't discussing weed vs. heroin, we were discussing random drug tests.

However, your assertion that pathologists could certainly practice impaired and it wouldn't matter since their patients are dead is certainly misguided. Pathologists play a crucial role in emergent blood transfusions as well as important (and occasionally urgent) surgical staging of disease.

 

[Tiger26]

You should take that sentence into the anesthesia forums, where physicians have actually been the ones to find their lifeless colleagues after an overdose. See what kind of response to that cavalier attitude you get there.

Exactly, don't want to end up like the resident at our program that got fired this year after being found in the call room (while on call that night) chilling out watching TV while leaning back with a propofol drip connected to the vein in his foot.

 

[Rendar5]

random drug testing is a very stupid policy. if you're gonna be tested, you better check the lab policy and make sure they do confirmatory testing because of the high false positive rate on the cheap screens. The problem there is that you're putting in extra resources and using more expensive tests everytime there's a positive result. I"m not sure that's really worth it.

 

[smq123]

I have been wondering if any schools out there have drug tests before starting third year. I had a moment of weakness during usmle study, and smoked a joint with a friend three weeks ago. It will be over a month by the time I start third year orientation, so everything would be out of my system, but the worry in the back of my mind is still there. I don't need a lecture on the evils of weed, I'd just like some info. thx.

Anyway, to answer your question: The policy will probably depend on what school you go to, and (particularly) what hospitals you will be rotating at.

Before the start of 3rd year at my school, I had to undergo a criminal background check. There was no drug testing before the start of third year. There WAS, however, a urine drug test before starting my pediatrics rotation - that was because of hospital policy, not school policy. I did not do any of my rotations at the VA but, because it is a federal hospital, they may have their own rules on these things.

They don't do hair testing in the US, as far as I am aware, but only urine testing. You'll probably be fine.

Your best bet is to ask MS3s and MS4s at your particular school.

 

[GH253]

Years ago when I was into growing pot, I ran into my orthopedist at the hydroponics shop. He bought two jugs of "BIG BUD" liquid fertilizer.

 

[bivwack]

I have been wondering if any schools out there have drug tests before starting third year. I had a moment of weakness during usmle study, and smoked a joint with a friend three weeks ago. It will be over a month by the time I start third year orientation, so everything would be out of my system, but the worry in the back of my mind is still there. I don't need a lecture on the evils of weed, I'd just like some info. thx.

If your school does in fact do a drug test before clinical rotations, you will be fine, if the last time you smoked was a month ago and they are doing a run of the mill urine test.
there are no good studies that determine how long marijuana will persist and show a positve result on urine drug screens. If you do a google search you will find some that say as long as 40+ days, usualy makers of varios concoctions to beat drug tests...a bunch of BS.
the idea that marijuana will stay in your system for around 30 days is based on a handful of studies done in the 70's and 80's on a small sample of participants in the outpatient setting who "voluntarily abstained" from smoking marijuana after enrolling in the studies. Its been a while since i looked over this , but i f i remember correctly mean time for a negative urine drug screen was less than seven days with a few outliers who tested positive untill the studies completion......I.E. they never stopped smoking

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

First of all, don't let anyone try to judge you in this forum. I guarantee you that most everyone has been some form of intoxicated at least some time during their medical school career. Medical school is stressful and hey, having a joint may not be the best coping mechanism, but you're far from being a deviant child (as some have implied).

I quit drinking years ago and never used a single mind-altering substance during the pre-clinical years. I also managed to stay sober while studying for Step 1. What a crock.

I'll spare you the lecture about grass and you should know that 4 weeks is more than enough time to clear a single joint.

If you plan to practice medicine, however, I'd suggest that you grow the hell up. From the first day of 3rd year to the end of your career, you'll be subject to random drug testing at any time - certainly subject to drug testing for cause at a minimum. Sure, there are a lot of doctors who drink too much and who abuse other substances. And the screws are getting tighter every year. Is that really how you want to live your life - viewing all your colleagues with suspicion and wondering when the ax will finally fall? The days when staff were afraid to confront the doctor-God are long since over. Go read your state board's enforcement actions. First morning you show up with overly-bloodshot eyes, even if you're functioning perfectly, some nurse on your unit is going to be placing a phone call that you'd rather she didn't.

All right, rant over. This isn't an issue of judging you as a person, but I'll certainly condemn your behavior. Seriously, honest to God - if you felt the need to smoke while studying for Step 1 (knowing full well you might have a drug test sometime afterward) you are NOT ready to deal with the stress you're going to experience in 3rd year - not to mention residency. Get some healthier coping mechanisms - you'll need them.

 

[ChandutheMagici]

I don't know if the last comment was directed at me or what, but I don't smoke pot dude. And I wasn't condoning. We all mess up from time to time. The OP admitted he did and had a valid question. This was followed by numerous judgments of him....

"I try not to resort to personal attacks on this forum, but you sir are a tool."

"I worry that if you haven't grown up by 23-25 you probably aren't going to stop in clerkships and residency and I certainly wouldn't want a doctor that smokes weed working on me."

"OP, stop. Its time to grow up"

and last but not least...

"This isn't an issue of judging you as a person, but I'll certainly condemn your behavior. Seriously, honest to God - if you felt the need to smoke while studying for Step 1 (knowing full well you might have a drug test sometime afterward) you are NOT ready to deal with the stress you're going to experience in 3rd year - not to mention residency. Get some healthier coping mechanisms - you'll need them. "

Ridiculous. The guy made a mistake and one he obviously feels bad about. Now I'm sure because you've stopped drinking and stopped using mind altering substances that means you've never messed up EVER. However, thanks for the stern lecture...Dad.

 

[45408]

No, I've never been drug tested in med school. Stay away from the poppy-seed muffins too, because that'll make you test positive for opiates.

 

[McGillGrad]

Ridiculous. The guy made a mistake and one he obviously feels bad about. Now I'm sure because you've stopped drinking and stopped using mind altering substances that means you've never messed up EVER. However, thanks for the stern lecture...Dad.

It's normal for people who go sober to be extremely judgemental of others. It's a natural defence mechanism, so don't take it personally. He's just jousting the windmills of his mind.

 

[gstrub]

I quit drinking years ago and never used a single mind-altering substance during the pre-clinical years. I also managed to stay sober while studying for Step 1. What a crock.

I'll spare you the lecture about grass and you should know that 4 weeks is more than enough time to clear a single joint.

If you plan to practice medicine, however, I'd suggest that you grow the hell up. From the first day of 3rd year to the end of your career, you'll be subject to random drug testing at any time - certainly subject to drug testing for cause at a minimum. Sure, there are a lot of doctors who drink too much and who abuse other substances. And the screws are getting tighter every year. Is that really how you want to live your life - viewing all your colleagues with suspicion and wondering when the ax will finally fall? The days when staff were afraid to confront the doctor-God are long since over. Go read your state board's enforcement actions. First morning you show up with overly-bloodshot eyes, even if you're functioning perfectly, some nurse on your unit is going to be placing a phone call that you'd rather she didn't.

All right, rant over. This isn't an issue of judging you as a person, but I'll certainly condemn your behavior. Seriously, honest to God - if you felt the need to smoke while studying for Step 1 (knowing full well you might have a drug test sometime afterward) you are NOT ready to deal with the stress you're going to experience in 3rd year - not to mention residency. Get some healthier coping mechanisms - you'll need them.

You remind me of this guy...

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

Ridiculous. The guy made a mistake and one he obviously feels bad about. Now I'm sure because you've stopped drinking and stopped using mind altering substances that means you've never messed up EVER. However, thanks for the stern lecture...Dad.

Wasn't a lecture - I'm just calling "bull****" on this one - with no apologies. If the original poster "obviously feels bad about it" he forgot to mention his intention to not do it again.

Never said I hadn't messed up. It's a specious and absurd argument to say "if you've ever done 'x' you have no right to speak." Does that mean that if I've ever missed an IV in my career, I can't teach how to do one?

I was talking about future behavior - and a 3rd year who continues to smoke is asking for trouble. It's an asinine way to cope with stress. Booze is legal; grass is not. Booze clears from your system unless you're actively drinking during the day or drinking so much that you're still loaded the next morning. A joint will leave you vulnerable to a positive drug test for at least two weeks. You may see no distinction - but your state medical board certainly does. It's just foolish to risk your career that way. But, hey, if you want to continue to smoke, go for it. But if you happen to get a senior like me and I find out about it, I'll bust your backside before you can blink... Son.

 

[student1799]

In all seriousness, I know of a family practice clinic that makes the students pass drug tests before their rotation...so it is always a possibility.

I had to pass a drug test just to get a hospital volunteer job.

 

[ChandutheMagici]

Never said I hadn't messed up. It's a specious and absurd argument to say "if you've ever done 'x' you have no right to speak." Does that mean that if I've ever missed an IV in my career, I can't teach how to do one?

No, you didn't say you'd never messed up. However, you did allude to the fact that your **** doesn't stink. And by the way, you're not teaching...you're JUDGING (which is precisely why YOU called it a rant). Terrible terrible analogy (I mean as long as we're calling out BS right?).

I was talking about future behavior - and a 3rd year who continues to smoke is asking for trouble.

Ya think? Wow, no one would have ever known that if you hadn't said it. Thanks for filling us in. /end sarcasm

It's an asinine way to cope with stress.

There you go again with that "teaching".

It's just foolish to risk your career that way.

Agreed.

But, hey, if you want to continue to smoke, go for it. But if you happen to get a senior like me and I find out about it, I'll bust your backside before you can blink... Son.

For the record, I DO NOT SMOKE POT. Nor do I drink in excess. However, I don't feel the need to rat out someone who does, particularly in medical school. If you want to know what I would do, I would sit down and talk with the person first (face to face) and find out their issues. Then, I would convince them to stop in the interest of patient safety. If that didn't work, THEN I would consider other options.

And don't worry, seniors like you never find out anything because everyone knows how to spot a tattle tale and then avoid them like the plague.

 

[Cerberus]

I really don't even understand why THC is on the standard UDS. Aside from Marijuana being illegal, how does it affect our treatment of a patient in anyway? I can understand benzos, opioids, etc but why MJ? Aside from the illegality of MJ, it is a fairly innocous drug.

I think it would be a poor choice for a medstudent to use it as it impairs judgement, but not any more so than alcohol. It's a drug that aside from it's legal status, is fairly harmless, yet can seriously ruin your life if you are caught on it.

 

[psychforme]

uds?

 

[indo]

urine drug screen.



I heard a psych resident telling a 3rd year med student that marijuana causes psychosis "all the time". ha. The ol' Dorito Psychosis.

 

[Rendar5]

Urine drug screens are not designed for medical use. They're designed for legal/forensic use. If they were designed for medical use, the panel would be quite different.

I really don't even understand why THC is on the standard UDS. Aside from Marijuana being illegal, how does it affect our treatment of a patient in anyway? I can understand benzos, opioids, etc but why MJ? Aside from the illegality of MJ, it is a fairly innocous drug.

I think it would be a poor choice for a medstudent to use it as it impairs judgement, but not any more so than alcohol. It's a drug that aside from it's legal status, is fairly harmless, yet can seriously ruin your life if you are caught on it.

 

[Rendar5]

No, I've never been drug tested in med school. Stay away from the poppy-seed muffins too, because that'll make you test positive for opiates.

not to mention that cough syrup triggers PCP screens, and decongestants trigger amphetamine screens

 

[J1515]

If you want to know what I would do, I would sit down and talk with the person first (face to face) and find out their issues.

Actually, that's exactly what you aren't supposed to do.

And I agree with others. If you're a 3rd year, enough already with the marijuana. Grow up. Yes I am judging people.

 

[scube]

what would change about this situation if the drug was legal. It just seems that most of the issue with this is the illegality of it. It is possible that mj leads to a very slightly slowed mind the next day. So that would be an argument against legal use by a physician. The same argument would have to be made for booze, caffiene(not slow but possible jitters) or just feeling under the weather. Just wanted to see if legalization changes anything in your mind on this issue.

 

[TMP-SMX]

Any kind of intoxication and clouded judgment is not the best state to be in when your job involves making decisions that can change people's lives. There's a time and a place. This is part of the reason against obscene hours during residency but cheap labor is cheap labor.

 

[McGillGrad]

Any kind of intoxication and clouded judgment is not the best state to be in when your job involves making decisions that can change people's lives. There's a time and a place. This is part of the reason against obscene hours during residency but cheap labor is cheap labor.

That is the absolute truth. As much fun as we all have at Cannabis Cup, in the end one of the sacrifices we make as physicians is to forego spontaneous vices for the good of others.

 

[ChandutheMagici]

Actually, that's exactly what you aren't supposed to do.

According to whom?

 

[scube]

Any kind of intoxication and clouded judgment is not the best state to be in when your job involves making decisions that can change people's lives. There's a time and a place. This is part of the reason against obscene hours during residency but cheap labor is cheap labor.

So you wouldn't condone the use of alcohol the night before a shift either. I am talking any amount, sometimes one or two could hang you over. what about staying up to watch a movie or something of that nature cause you don't think as well on less sleep. I am not attacking you just making the point that this could be drawn out to an extreme.

 

[TMP-SMX]

Most people should know their body's limits enough to know how much they can drink before having a hangover the next day and that it's probably a good idea to get plenty of rest as that is common sense.

Yes it happens all the time. There are alcoholic physicians and we are no different than the rest of the population. Staying up late and watching a movie rather than sleeping isn't going to get you fired while coming in intoxicated will. Your body also has enough regulation to tell you when you can't stay awake anymore.

 

[ucsfstudents]

Most schools do not do a drug test prior to third year. A quick way for you to find your answer is to ask an upperclassman that exact question. I'm sure you would have been given a warning about this sooner. Regardless, I recommend refraining from illicit drug use from now on. Self medication can be a dangerous slippery slope.. so be careful. As we know, although weed might not be physical addictive (as last I heard), it is definitely psychologically addictive, and trust me when I say that your stressful days are just beginning as you start clinical rotations. So keep a look out for self-damaging behaviors and try not to put yourself in this situation again.