DRUG TOPICS Magazine...this months issue about PharmD supply

[SkiPharmer]

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Of all the pharmacy related magazines out there (Pharmacy Times, US Pharmacist, that $h!tty one from APhA, etc) I think Drug Topics is the best one and at least publishes articles about REAL problems in pharmacy.... ARE YOU LISTENING APhA?!?!?!? In this months article they had about three different articles about the over supply of schools and pharmacists and how the schools and no one is doing anything. Realistically how bad will it get before schools start shutting down and stop opening?

 

[eagles22]

As long as people can get loans, the school's will stay open. Their job is to graduate students, not to product employed pharmacists.

 

[nafcillin]

oh goody, this board's favorite topic. I know oversupply is an issue but if I see another thread about it I'm going to projectile vomit.

 

[joetrisman]

Saw this as well in Drug Topics. My fav was the last page commentary thing with the chick that had 200k in debt with no job prospects

 

[tungsten87]

saw this as well in drug topics. My fav was the last page commentary thing with the chick that had 200k in debt with no job prospects

$250k*

also, don't forget we will be graduating over 14,000 pharmacists by 2013

-_-

 

[MountainPharmD]

oh goody, this board's favorite topic. I know oversupply is an issue but if I see another thread about it I'm going to projectile vomit.

How about you don't read or respond to thoses threads? The oversupply talk may be boring you but it is the single biggest challege we will face in the next 10 years. Not talking about it doesn't make it go away.

 

[MountainPharmD]

Saw this as well in Drug Topics. My fav was the last page commentary thing with the chick that had 200k in debt with no job prospects

This right here is a problem for all of us. Someone with 250k in debt will take any job for any salary doing anything. This is how we will all lose.

 

[joetrisman]

This right here is a problem for all of us. Someone with 250k in debt will take any job for any salary doing anything. This is how we will all lose.

Reminds me of my brother in law. He was a triple major in undergrad and just finished his masters last year. Can't find a job to save his life. Has an interview later this week for doing data entry at a large insurance company. Still better off than the majority of us though as he never paid a dime for any of his education.

 

[Lubeckd]

I dont know man, Im not against the new schools at the current moment but people need to realize we are all in the same boat, and if pharmacy as a profession sinks it would affect us all. Either make the seats smaller, and limit it into 50 seats a year (like physical therapy which has 30-50 seats a year) or get a union. All Im hearing is talk and no action, if there is a lobbying power, sign me up asap.

 

[Its Z]

I dont know man, Im not against the new schools at the current moment but people need to realize we are all in the same boat, and if pharmacy as a profession sinks it would affect us all. Either make the seats smaller, into 50 seats a year; or get a union. All Im hearing is talk and no action, if there is a lobbying power, sign me up asap.

I hear you. I will start a lobbying group. Let me give you my paypal addy. The initial membership due will be $1,000... then $1,500 annually. I will give 10% discount for students.

 

[rph3664]

I saw this program on PBS' "Frontline" a few days ago. It's about those for-profit colleges and all the returning soldiers who are using their GI Bill money to attend them - and not being able to find jobs when they're done, or switching majors and schools and finding out that none of their credits transferred. Because many of them are from families where nobody else has attended college, they don't know what they are getting into, and some of these schools use very aggressive recruiting tactics, with promises of a cushy job afterwards.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/educating-sergeant-pantzke/

Some of them could have gotten a pharmacy degree with the time and money they've invested in this! There's also an implication that these colleges' exponential growth is largely on the backs of these soldiers. 😡

 

[BrightLight]

I wonder if any pharmacy candidate ever answered the question "What do you think will be the biggest challenge facing our profession in the next 10 years?" during a pharmacy school interview with "oversupply of pharmacists due to irresponsible opening of pharmacy schools by greedy educators who are out of touch with reality."

 

[297point1]

I wonder if any pharmacy candidate ever answered the question "What do you think will be the biggest challenge facing our profession in the next 10 years?" during a pharmacy school interview with "oversupply of pharmacists due to irresponsible opening of pharmacy schools by greedy educators who are out of touch with reality."

That response would work really well at some schools...and not so good at others.

 

[accordman83]

I wonder if any pharmacy candidate ever answered the question "What do you think will be the biggest challenge facing our profession in the next 10 years?" during a pharmacy school interview with "oversupply of pharmacists due to irresponsible opening of pharmacy schools by greedy educators who are out of touch with reality."

I actually said something similar in my interview, I got in so I guess it worked or at least didn't hurt me

 

[SkiPharmer]

Hey Nafcillin, like MountainPharmD said, if you don't realize how important and big this is going to hurt us and our future then I am sorry. Look at where lawyers are now, I got a buddy graduated top of his class from a Top 20 law school with $175,000 in student loans and he makes $40,000 clerking for a judge.......and he is lucky cuz he actually has a job! Pharmacists are not immune to this trend either......

 

[PumpkinSmasher]

Hey Nafcillin, like MountainPharmD said, if you don't realize how important and big this is going to hurt us and our future then I am sorry. Look at where lawyers are now, I got a buddy graduated top of his class from a Top 20 law school with $175,000 in student loans and he makes $40,000 clerking for a judge.......and he is lucky cuz he actually has a job! Pharmacists are not immune to this trend either......

Your buddy may have done poorly outside of the classroom and not made the quality/necessary connections to succeed. Just like in pharmacy school, top of class can be a worthless pharmacist in the real world...just saying anecdotal data can always be ripped apart.

I agree, pharmacists are following this trend with all these schools. Surplus is bad news and will hurt for long while.

 

[type b pharmD]

Your buddy may have done poorly outside of the classroom and not made the quality/necessary connections to succeed. Just like in pharmacy school, top of class can be a worthless pharmacist in the real world...just saying anecdotal data can always be ripped apart.

I agree, pharmacists are following this trend with all these schools. Surplus is bad news and will hurt for long while.

clerking for a judge will get you PSLF, meaning you pay 15% after tax income for 10 years then loans are gone tax free. I wonder if he mentioned that. Also clerking iirc is a track that eventually leads to federal or state judge candidacy if you play your cards right. So I dont really feel sorry for that guy , personally

 

[Albo]

Hey Nafcillin, like MountainPharmD said, if you don't realize how important and big this is going to hurt us and our future then I am sorry. Look at where lawyers are now, I got a buddy graduated top of his class from a Top 20 law school with $175,000 in student loans and he makes $40,000 clerking for a judge.......and he is lucky cuz he actually has a job! Pharmacists are not immune to this trend either...... .

So now we will generalize the whole group based in one unique case. It could be many things wrong with that guy, i dont know the whole picture but for the sake of a counterargument i have a friend and she graduated from a non ranked law school (4th tier), made a lot of connection during school and now had a $80 000 dollar offer to join a law firm.

From what i have noticed be it pharmacy, law, medicine or whatever other field, it is the person who is the most ambitious and has the most determination that will be the most competitive, everything else are excuses.

 

[pfaction]

From what i have noticed be it pharmacy, law, medicine or whatever other field, it is the person who is the most ambitious and has the most determination that will be the most competitive, everything else are excuses.

We'll see how competitive you really are in 4 years.

 

[moissanite69]

I just read the article. To those who are interested in reading, you can visit here:
http://drugtopics.modernmedicine.co...articleDetail.jsp?id=726709&pageID=1&sk=&date=

We seriously need more regulations towards the idea of expanding more pharmacy schools. Somebody who has authority needs to work on # of grads vs # of available jobs and decide to open or close new pharmacy schools to maintain a demand vs supply balance check. What I really don't understand is that why BLS and media keep lying about how rosy the job market for pharmacists will be in future with projection of hundred thousands of pharmacists needed. How do they come up with these numbers? This is just like when the fed saying that economy is in recovery mode, and we know it's all BS with unemployment goes up, debt is acummulating more and more to the point they have to vote to raise debt ceiling.

People really need to wake up and face the reality.

 

[Trakker]

It stated that her total federal student indebtedness is $277,094. Her required loan repayment will be $3,188.81 per month for 10 years. The interest for the life of the loan will be $105,562.67. The e-mail concluded helpfully, "In order to repay your loans and still live comfortably with a household size of one, an annual salary of $382,657.20 is recommended."

This quote really explains that situation many pharmacy graduates will unfortunately have to face.

 

[Trakker]

We'll see how competitive you really are in 4 years.

Nicely said. People always think they will be on the sweet side of the curve.

 

[PumpkinSmasher]

This quote really explains that situation many pharmacy graduates will unfortunately have to face.

277k....😱 Wow, someone did not think things through.

 

[Trakker]

277k....😱 Wow, someone did not think things through.

That's almost 70 k a year for 4 years. Unfortunately with tuition 40+ plus fee a year and living cost, it is not unusual for someone to borrow that much money. With a typical pharmacist salary, that amount of student loan will crush anyone.

 

[owlegrad]

That's almost 70 k a year for 4 years. Unfortunately with tuition 40+ plus fee a year and living cost, it is not unusual for someone to borrow that much money. With a typical pharmacist salary, that amount of student loan will crush anyone.

I don't know what the exact max point should be, but that is crazy. 😱

 

[Albo]

Nicely said. People always think they will be on the sweet side of the curve.

I am not saying i have a guaranteed spot on the sweet side of the curve but i am willing to take the challenge unlike some whiners in here. I know i will be in a better position that where i am right now in 4 years and of that i am 100% sure.

 

[Albo]

We'll see how competitive you really are in 4 years.

Dude don't project your fears on others.

 

[Trakker]

I am not saying i have a guaranteed spot on the sweet side of the curve but i am willing to take the challenge unlike some whiners in here. I know i will be in a better position that where i am right now in 4 years and of that i am 100% sure.

Wait a minute, didn't you get rejected from the Univ of Mich? You are all talk.

 

[Albo]

Wait a minute, didn't you get rejected from the Univ of Mich? You are all talk.

I was not personally attacking you i was just giving my argument about my situation but if you want to be a show off than so be it. And just for the record i was wait listed and decided to pull out of U of M because WSU was a better choice for me family wise and financially.

 

[owlegrad]

Play nice everyone! 😉

I found this issue of Drug Topics to be a little heavy handed. You don't need every article to be about the same thing to get your message across. I like that this issue is starting to be addressed, but I hope it is a little more...subtle in the future.

I liked the article about the medical mission trips though. That made for a good read.

 

[tungsten87]

I was not personally attacking you i was just giving my argument about my situation but if you want to be a show off than so be it. And just for the record i was wait listed and decided to pull out of U of M because WSU was a better choice for me family wise and financially.

also funny because UMich and WSU have the same tuition at around $19K/year

 

[pharmschooler]

also funny because UMich and WSU have the same tuition at around $19K/year

That's irrelevant if you have a place to stay with family near one school but not near another.

Not sure why you guys are picking on this poster...do you feel insecure based on their earlier posts? If you think somebody's living in a dream world, it's often easier to let it roll off your back than try to poke holes in their belief system.

 

[Trakker]

I was not personally attacking you i was just giving my argument about my situation but if you want to be a show off than so be it. And just for the record i was wait listed and decided to pull out of U of M because WSU was a better choice for me family wise and financially.

Look, I can understand if you have already gone thru pharmacy school and worked extra hard to land a pharmacist position. But, until then, I wouldn't talk so much for someone who has not even started pharmacy school.

These are real struggles for graduating pharmacists and the profession. Borrowing 200+ k student loan and struggling to find a job is a humbling and terrifying experience. Not only will you have to pay late fee penalty but your credit score will be destroyed, which makes it even harder to land a position since some employers check credit score.

It is very competitive out there and to suggest these people are "whiners" is simply not fair and equally important, not correct. So I am sorry that your feelings got hurt. Toughen up.

 

[beastykato]

I have to admit after making my previous thread about quitting a fairly decent job this kind of talk is a bit worrisome. I've always thought pharmacy was cool but no course of study is worth ending up in the poor house with no job availability.

Is it really that difficult to find a job? I know from looking at my general area in Pittsburgh the hospitals have more than a handful of pharmacy openings available. The pay isn't good in our area for a pharmacist from what I see on the websites, but I would think if there were that many desperate pharmacists out there trying to pay their bills even lower paying positions would be taken. I know I would take them in a heartbeat; because every day you sit there looking for something better is a day your not earning your keep.

 

[Albo]

Look, I can understand if you have already gone thru pharmacy school and worked extra hard to land a pharmacist position. But, until then, I wouldn't talk so much for someone who has not even started pharmacy school.

These are real struggles for graduating pharmacists and the profession. Borrowing 200+ k student loan and struggling to find a job is a humbling and terrifying experience. Not only will you have to pay late fee penalty but your credit score will be destroyed, which makes it even harder to land a position since some employers check credit score.

It is very competitive out there and to suggest these people are "whiners" is simply not fair and equally important, not correct. So I am sorry that your feelings got hurt. Toughen up.

Man dont tell me about toughening up....you don't know my past or what i have been through. I overcame many many challenges that i don't really feel putting in here. I am fascinated with most of the Americans and their lack of noticing the great opportunities they have here. Go live in a third world country...and than come here and complain about the bleak future of the pharmacy profession. I am not living in a dream world and i understand the challenges ahead of me but at the same time i know the great opportunity i am given and i will try my hardest to make the most out of it.

As for U of M vs WSU i have done my research.
WSU tuition is roughly $60000-$65000 and i will be living at home while for 4 years while U of M is $80 000 + living expenses (very expensive town)
Source (http://www.aacp.org/resources/student/pharmacyforyou/admissions/Documents/Table%2011.pdf)

 

[Judgment Dragon]

It stated that her total federal student indebtedness is $277,094. Her required loan repayment will be $3,188.81 per month for 10 years. The interest for the life of the loan will be $105,562.67. The e-mail concluded helpfully, "In order to repay your loans and still live comfortably with a household size of one, an annual salary of $382,657.20 is recommended."

The recommended salary doesn't make sense. She needs $37,000 to pay off her loans and at most another $30,000 to live comfortably. Who actually needs $333,000 per year to live comfortably? 😕

 

[owlegrad]

It stated that her total federal student indebtedness is $277,094. Her required loan repayment will be $3,188.81 per month for 10 years. The interest for the life of the loan will be $105,562.67. The e-mail concluded helpfully, "In order to repay your loans and still live comfortably with a household size of one, an annual salary of $382,657.20 is recommended."

The recommended salary doesn't make sense. She needs $37,000 to pay off her loans and at most another $30,000 to live comfortably. Who actually needs $333,000 per year to live comfortably? 😕

Where is that number coming from?

 

[LazyMooch]

Where is that number coming from?

They multiplied the monthly payment by twelve. I didn't check it, but it's roughly correct.

 

[p-rog]

It stated that her total federal student indebtedness is $277,094. Her required loan repayment will be $3,188.81 per month for 10 years. The interest for the life of the loan will be $105,562.67. The e-mail concluded helpfully, "In order to repay your loans and still live comfortably with a household size of one, an annual salary of $382,657.20 is recommended."

The recommended salary doesn't make sense. She needs $37,000 to pay off her loans and at most another $30,000 to live comfortably. Who actually needs $333,000 per year to live comfortably? 😕

1. 37 K + 30 K = 67 K post-tax = ~120K pre-tax income

2. they are using an estimate that 10-15% of your gross yearly income is what you want to pay to loans to live comfortably

3. 30K will not even cover rent in certain areas of the country...it's all relative what you need to live comfortable.

 

[pharmschooler]

1. 37 K + 30 K = 67 K post-tax = ~120K pre-tax income

2. they are using an estimate that 10-15% of your gross yearly income is what you want to pay to loans to live comfortably

3. 30K will not even cover rent in certain areas of the country...it's all relative what you need to live comfortable.

😕

Perhaps NYC or SF, but in my experience living in various places around the US, the most I've ever paid was $8.4K + utilities on an annual basis (the least I've paid was just shy of $3k+ utilities). Of course, I have always lived with roommates. There are ways to stretch your housing budget. If you must live alone in a fancy place, you will always pay more.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

Where is that number coming from?

12 * 3,188.

They multiplied the monthly payment by twelve. I didn't check it, but it's roughly correct.

Correct. 🙂

1. 37 K + 30 K = 67 K post-tax = ~120K pre-tax income

2. they are using an estimate that 10-15% of your gross yearly income is what you want to pay to loans to live comfortably

3. 30K will not even cover rent in certain areas of the country...it's all relative what you need to live comfortable.

Oh I see. Well if I was in massive debt, I would not worry about living comfortably. I would live frugally as much as possible. Also income tax as well as other taxes are about 45% of your total gross income, nowadays? 😕

 

[LazyMooch]

Is it just me, or would making loan payments non-taxable be the best thing (for us) ever?

 

[xiphoid2010]

Is it just me, or would making loan payments non-taxable be the best thing (for us) ever?

student loan interests are tax deductible up to a certain income. Just that pharmacists salary is above that, so no tax deduction for you! Come back 1 year!

 

[Judgment Dragon]

http://drugtopics.modernmedicine.co...Article/detail/726723?contextCategoryId=47446

Here is another good article.

 

[futureMTMspecs]

Here is the supply/demand numbers for the past 10 years.

http://pharmacymanpower.com/trends.jsp

Sad, but true, My projected graduation year is 2015. So by following the trend and the future Pharmacy schools that will get approved, I would be attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis.

 

[owlegrad]

Well I hate to nit pick, but:

3,188.81*12 = 38265.72


Plus the phase "to pay off her loans" is not accurate. That covers one year, it does not pay off the loan.

So to recap, 37,000 is less than her annual loan payments and is much less than the amount required to pay of her loans.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

Does anyone know the answer the my income tax question? What are the income cutoffs for income taxes of each level? I tried searching for this, but couldn't find my answer. 🙁

Never mind. I found my answer.

 

[Cloud 9]

This quote really explains that situation many pharmacy graduates will unfortunately have to face.

Why on Earth would someone take out that much in loans? You could work as an electrician or a plumber or a state worker and make 50k a year w/o any loans and you'd still have a better salary than 30k/year plus the stress of loans.

If anyone wants to blame anyone for the surplus then blame the idiots who sign up for these degrees with no way to pay for it.

 

[1ive2die]

Why on Earth would someone take out that much in loans? You could work as an electrician or a plumber or a state worker and make 50k a year w/o any loans and you'd still have a better salary than 30k/year plus the stress of loans.

If anyone wants to blame anyone for the surplus then blame the idiots who sign up for these degrees with no way to pay for it.

Why is it that whenever the cost of education is mentioned people always defer to the trades argument as if going into one of those occupations is as easy as filling out an application form. If it was that easy to pick up a trade and find an apprenticeship program, everyone would be doing it, and then you'd be talking about oversaturation in that job.

 

[Old]

So now we will generalize the whole group based in one unique case. It could be many things wrong with that guy, i dont know the whole picture but for the sake of a counterargument i have a friend and she graduated from a non ranked law school (4th tier), made a lot of connection during school and now had a $80 000 dollar offer to join a law firm.

From what i have noticed be it pharmacy, law, medicine or whatever other field, it is the person who is the most ambitious and has the most determination that will be the most competitive, everything else are excuses.

I love students with the insight and knowledge they bring to the table.