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Started by fizzbot
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fizzbot said:
WashU specifically states it, and I'm sure other schools do it too.
wait, are you guys serious?
Some schools do, yeah, but I think they let you know before hand. If not, just stop with enough time to let it leave your system before you start school in the fall. I wouldn't want to jeopardize my medical school acceptance for something stupid like that.
BaylorGuy said:
duuude, you already said that. you're, like, stoned and stuff.
Maybe I should rethink my trip to Amsterdam this summer.
Whootman said:
If they tell you about it, then why bother doing it at all? My personal opinion is that drug tests that aren't random are useless. 😳 I'm working in a lab in a hospital right now, and it's amazing what people do to try to get out of drug testing or mess with the sample.
I admit I'm a bit biased on the issue of drugs, because I've been rejected for the second year and I'm going to have to reapply again for the entering class of 2007. I just can't understand why anyone would do illegal drugs and jeopardize not only the lives of patients but also their chances at med school.
Drugs are bad, mmkay?
mustangsally65 said:
I don't think you realize what an offensive thing this is to say. There are countless ways to jeopardize the lives of patients without using drugs, and countless ways to use drugs without jeopardizing the lives of patients. One doesn't go hand in hand with the other.
mustangsally65 said:If they tell you about it, then why bother doing it at all? My personal opinion is that drug tests that aren't random are useless. 😳 I'm working in a lab in a hospital right now, and it's amazing what people do to try to get out of drug testing or mess with the sample.
I admit I'm a bit biased on the issue of drugs, because I've been rejected for the second year and I'm going to have to reapply again for the entering class of 2007. I just can't understand why anyone would do illegal drugs and jeopardize not only the lives of patients but also their chances at med school.
Drugs are bad, mmkay?
What people do on their personal time is their own prerogative. If they want to do drugs it really shouldn't matter unless it is affecting their professional lives. Am I advocating drug use? Heck no however, I think that drug testing in any situation is stupid and an invasion of ones privacy.
Do you think the same about alcohol and cigarettes? Both of these are drugs and can affect ones ability to perform certain tasks. Furthermore, just because you were not accepted has no bearing on those who were accepted - regardless of whether they are using drugs, drinking or smoking.
Please tell me how using drugs outside of the hospital puts patients lives in jeopardy? I can see if the student/doctor is using while at the hospital how it would put patients at risk but, if someone wants to drink on the weekends (or do drugs) then that has no bearing on patient care.
drmota said:
Mota, too late. Risa and I are moving to Hawaii and starting a Llama farm. And a cacao bean crop. I understand your drive to impregnate all of the women here, but be careful what you wish for... She and I are going to be too busy surfing and making the boys jealous to be pregnant anytime soon. But, who knows what's possible? I'm sure something could be worked out between us all.
Whaddya think Risa?
I'll be selling my 100% drug-free urine on ebay come August then..
Recreational drug use pervades all levels of society in America and around the world. In Michael Crichton's non-fiction book Travels, he states it's not really a visit to Thailand without trying Thai grass. I'm sure some of my professors hit up the bong. I hope we're not really that naive.
Recreational drug use pervades all levels of society in America and around the world. In Michael Crichton's non-fiction book Travels, he states it's not really a visit to Thailand without trying Thai grass. I'm sure some of my professors hit up the bong. I hope we're not really that naive.
Jedix123 said:
It's not really naivete so much as the premed CULT OF THE DOCTOR. You know, we're going to be SAVING LIVES. If you didn't eat your granola this morning, it could adversely affect your ability to SAVE LIVES and thus you are a sinner. You have to live a perfect life because you are going into a profession where your job is to SAVE LIVES.
I'm sure eventually they'll realize medicine isn't really much more important than other people's jobs and doesn't make you a special human being and be begging us to pass the spliff for the celebratory day-off xbox madden tournament. 😛
TypeA said:
Dude - when you are on call (which as a med student doesn't even count) you are in the hospital unless you are an upper level resident/attending taking home call. And if thats the case then you are considered "on" - aka you shouldn't be doing anything (drinking/drugging).
Emergencies are rare unless your an attending and there is no one else in your practice that isn't on call or already at the hospital. There are never emergencies when you are med student. Believe me, the hospital runs without you.
Using your logic, you can never have a glass of wine at dinner either so make sure your sober at all times.
Gosh, people take themselves so seriously. I think I'll make sure that I have enough wine for you next time I am out with friends.
I guess the question comes down to whether you believe that use is detrimental to intellect or capability.
In that case, I think alcohol is far more destructive than marijuana as far as physical impairment and lack of judgment go- and the other drugs are not ones that I would expect people to be using regularly, although coke and meth probably make it on the list for a few pre-meds due to their "performance enhancing."
THC stays in the system far past the point where its "high" has worn off, whereas far more destructive substances (methamphetamines, Coke, GHB, heroin, etc) will wash out of the system far more quickly. I think that MJ being the most popular recreational drug around pre-meds and other college students, okay SECOND most popular, as ALCOHOL is number one drug abused/used by our society (yes, it's legal, I know), is the primary focus of concern. To be honest, you gotta think about yes, EMERGENCY and ON CALL - I totally agree. 👍 I've sen my dad refuse drinks at dinner when he's on call for sure.
As far as testing goes, you can argue whether or not MJ/THC is harmful to the learning process and the ability to be a good physician. I'm not getting into that, I'm just acknowledging our elephant in the room in this forum.
One problem with drug testing, from the standpoint of those who believe THC is not harmful, stems from the length of time that THC is detectable in the system and the pervasiveness of its use. Is it demonized or is it truly destructive? UCSD did a study on it not long ago- I believe they found no long-term problems in memory loss with its use. UCSD study Sorry- I just googled this link, so forgive if it's not a great one.
For those who argue that alcohol is less problematic than THC, I posit this question: when was the last time you heard someone was raped by somebody who was stoned?
And look at the recent Highlands Hospital issues in Oakland...
I'm not trying to advocate pot smoking, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate.
OK. Discuss.
In that case, I think alcohol is far more destructive than marijuana as far as physical impairment and lack of judgment go- and the other drugs are not ones that I would expect people to be using regularly, although coke and meth probably make it on the list for a few pre-meds due to their "performance enhancing."
THC stays in the system far past the point where its "high" has worn off, whereas far more destructive substances (methamphetamines, Coke, GHB, heroin, etc) will wash out of the system far more quickly. I think that MJ being the most popular recreational drug around pre-meds and other college students, okay SECOND most popular, as ALCOHOL is number one drug abused/used by our society (yes, it's legal, I know), is the primary focus of concern. To be honest, you gotta think about yes, EMERGENCY and ON CALL - I totally agree. 👍 I've sen my dad refuse drinks at dinner when he's on call for sure.
As far as testing goes, you can argue whether or not MJ/THC is harmful to the learning process and the ability to be a good physician. I'm not getting into that, I'm just acknowledging our elephant in the room in this forum.
One problem with drug testing, from the standpoint of those who believe THC is not harmful, stems from the length of time that THC is detectable in the system and the pervasiveness of its use. Is it demonized or is it truly destructive? UCSD did a study on it not long ago- I believe they found no long-term problems in memory loss with its use. UCSD study Sorry- I just googled this link, so forgive if it's not a great one.
For those who argue that alcohol is less problematic than THC, I posit this question: when was the last time you heard someone was raped by somebody who was stoned?
And look at the recent Highlands Hospital issues in Oakland...
I'm not trying to advocate pot smoking, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate.
OK. Discuss.
Just a few anecdotal tidbits (and these are not to make anyone look bad, it's just food for thought and things that I have personally witnessed):
Fentanyl is good! Patients like it and some doctors like it too. However, it's really a shame when the patient is supposed to get a 100 mikes and they only get 50 and someone keeps the rest for themselves. Depriving a patient of needed pain medication is not good!
Getting into a wreck, while trying to shoot up, through the hep-lok you put into your own arm, while driving, with your scrubs and hospital ID on, does not inspire confidence in your patient population.
Starting DT's while operating a bone saw and trashing someone's popliteal artery is not a good thing. Keep in mind, this person was not under the influence. In fact, that might have prevented this from happening. This person had done a very good job of hiding their illness from everyone and was actually trying to kick-it at the time.
That's probably enough to illustrate my point, although I have many more stories. The point is that all of these people did a very good job of hiding their problems and ended up hurting patients or their profession and were not acutely intoxicated while on hospital grounds.
If random drug testing were performed, the possibility exists, that these people could have gotten some help or at least not done harm.
I AM NOT advocating random drug testing, just playing devils advocate. Yes, I also understand that these are extreme examples, but they started their trip somewhere.
-Mike
Fentanyl is good! Patients like it and some doctors like it too. However, it's really a shame when the patient is supposed to get a 100 mikes and they only get 50 and someone keeps the rest for themselves. Depriving a patient of needed pain medication is not good!
Getting into a wreck, while trying to shoot up, through the hep-lok you put into your own arm, while driving, with your scrubs and hospital ID on, does not inspire confidence in your patient population.
Starting DT's while operating a bone saw and trashing someone's popliteal artery is not a good thing. Keep in mind, this person was not under the influence. In fact, that might have prevented this from happening. This person had done a very good job of hiding their illness from everyone and was actually trying to kick-it at the time.
That's probably enough to illustrate my point, although I have many more stories. The point is that all of these people did a very good job of hiding their problems and ended up hurting patients or their profession and were not acutely intoxicated while on hospital grounds.
If random drug testing were performed, the possibility exists, that these people could have gotten some help or at least not done harm.
I AM NOT advocating random drug testing, just playing devils advocate. Yes, I also understand that these are extreme examples, but they started their trip somewhere.
-Mike
I don't want to do a lesser of evils debate, but I will say that the acknowledgment of these cultures of drug use is important in overcoming their downfalls. That said, we don't live in a perfect world and there will always be idiots who abuse them and take no responsibilities. (Disclaimer: Also not a pro-weed/alcohol post)
So many mini-arguments in this thread 😀
Going to throw my hat in the ring, for better or worse. I'd like to think this will be a friendly debate but we'll see where it goes.
In terms of what mustangsally65 said, I agree that drug tests that aren't random are useless. I don't think the contention that doing illegal drugs could jeapordize the lives of patients is particularly offensive. I think it's a valid concern. For instance, I'm sure you wouldn't want a cardiac surgeon on acid to do delicate procedures on you regardless of what you think about a person's personal freedom.
I agree with Risa that there are countless ways to jeopardize the lives of patients without using drugs. It should be common sense that as a physician, you shouldn't do those either. I don't think anyone would refute that.
I also agree that there are countless ways to use drugs without jeopardizing the lives of patients, but again, it depends on what you are talking about. Any time where there is a chance that a patient could be put in danger by your action, I would think that your sense of pride in your work and your professionalism would cause you to scrutinize it and minimize that action.
If you are engaging in activities that negatively affect your performance while working on a patient, I think it's unprofessional and selfish for you to say you are going to keep doing it anyway. However, if you're smoking pot or doing coke or what have you and the period inclusive of the effects does not overlap with your work, nobody needs to really care about that. That is your business.
I am curious about the idea that drug testing in any situation is stupid. I'd like to think that people who are trashed who avoid driving because they don't want to be pulled over and tested by the cops prevents vehicular manslaughter.
Again, not that all people who drink and drive are going to kill someone -- that's not what I'm getting at -- but some do, and that's what's important. Maybe you're alive right now because some drunk who was destined to plow into you got pulled over and tested before he ever had the chance.
I understand that being pulled over for drunk driving and undergoing a drug test are different things; however, the drunk driving could lead to the drug test which could lead to the driver being pulled off the road.
Going to throw my hat in the ring, for better or worse. I'd like to think this will be a friendly debate but we'll see where it goes.
In terms of what mustangsally65 said, I agree that drug tests that aren't random are useless. I don't think the contention that doing illegal drugs could jeapordize the lives of patients is particularly offensive. I think it's a valid concern. For instance, I'm sure you wouldn't want a cardiac surgeon on acid to do delicate procedures on you regardless of what you think about a person's personal freedom.
I agree with Risa that there are countless ways to jeopardize the lives of patients without using drugs. It should be common sense that as a physician, you shouldn't do those either. I don't think anyone would refute that.
I also agree that there are countless ways to use drugs without jeopardizing the lives of patients, but again, it depends on what you are talking about. Any time where there is a chance that a patient could be put in danger by your action, I would think that your sense of pride in your work and your professionalism would cause you to scrutinize it and minimize that action.
If you are engaging in activities that negatively affect your performance while working on a patient, I think it's unprofessional and selfish for you to say you are going to keep doing it anyway. However, if you're smoking pot or doing coke or what have you and the period inclusive of the effects does not overlap with your work, nobody needs to really care about that. That is your business.
I am curious about the idea that drug testing in any situation is stupid. I'd like to think that people who are trashed who avoid driving because they don't want to be pulled over and tested by the cops prevents vehicular manslaughter.
Again, not that all people who drink and drive are going to kill someone -- that's not what I'm getting at -- but some do, and that's what's important. Maybe you're alive right now because some drunk who was destined to plow into you got pulled over and tested before he ever had the chance.
I understand that being pulled over for drunk driving and undergoing a drug test are different things; however, the drunk driving could lead to the drug test which could lead to the driver being pulled off the road.
Here's the way i see the deal. I wouldn't be suprised if many a doctor has tried the MJ in they lives. I wouldn't be suprised if many a doctor still do. The fact of the matter is that there are going to be good doctors and bad doctors and the threshold between the two is not going to be whether or not the doctor toked up or not.
If you are on call, studying, having some obligation to do...for the love of God don't go drinking or getting blitzed. If you happen to have a weekend off from any sort of medical duties....be my guest and blaze a couple of fatties....hell call a couple of SDNers to join you as well.
Those are the best days
If you are on call, studying, having some obligation to do...for the love of God don't go drinking or getting blitzed. If you happen to have a weekend off from any sort of medical duties....be my guest and blaze a couple of fatties....hell call a couple of SDNers to join you as well.
dilated said:
Those are the best days
mustangsally65 said:
I would build on this thought and suggest that it is not just the risk to patients driving this, although that is a huge one, but the fact that you will ultimately be administering drugs, able to prescribe drugs, and that level of authority is not something society wants to give to someone who fails drug tests. (And yes, I realize that some of the things tested for aren't even prescribable, but presently the "gateway to harder drugs" mentality about lesser drugs prevails with the powers that be.)
Everyone always flames me when I post about drug testing, so I'm gonna stop posting in these threads. But one departing thought: I personally believe that the job of physician is a huge responsibility and not one to be taken lightly. People place their full trust in you to do the right thing for them. Integrity is so important, and you have to be willing to make sacrifices in order to be the best physician you can be. For me, that includes alcohol, smoking, and all other types of illegal drugs.
I think physicians have a higher moral code that they should answer to. If we are priviliged enough to be privy to the most intimate details of patients' lives and given thier utmost respect, we should be willing to return that respect by staying clean. I'm talking about med school, residency, and beyond.
Sorry if I offended anyone. I'm not trying to judge, just voicing my opinion.
I think physicians have a higher moral code that they should answer to. If we are priviliged enough to be privy to the most intimate details of patients' lives and given thier utmost respect, we should be willing to return that respect by staying clean. I'm talking about med school, residency, and beyond.
Sorry if I offended anyone. I'm not trying to judge, just voicing my opinion.
nikibean said:
Ah yes, the llama farm! Not to worry, this is all going to work out... the llamas can be in charge of talking to the babies about drugs, since this thread is making me entirely put off by the topic. We'll be one big, happy family.
Risa said:
Why would a baby need a suit? Med school interviewing must be starting really early these days. 🙂
What about the fact that it is illegal? That should be enough. Doctors have access to all sorts of controlled substances, and although just because a doc smokes MJ on the weekends doesn't mean he will be slipping some vicodin as well, the doc that has the control to not be smoking MJ on the weekends (because once again, it is illegal) will probably not be slipping stuff on the side. As far as random drug testing goes and this "violation of personal privacy" crap, Doctors, dentists, pharmacists, and anyone else who deals with controlled substances go, they should fit into the "implied consent" just like driving and BAC tests go. If you can't deal with the consent, don't be a doctor. Thats called accountability folks.
Rockhouse said:
Well said. Politically I am a libertarian, but health professionals, airline pilots, law enforcement officers and also a few other jobs require people to live up to a higher standard. Would you really want to go in for a hip replacement surgery and have a surgeon who just toked up the day before accidentally saw off more than just your hip? Or how about going into surgery and having the doc accidentally replace the wrong hip?
Here's the thing, the recreational toker, which is what we are all assuming, won't do that. That's just not what weed does to people. If you're getting high once every few months you're not going to become some absent-minded, Clouseau-esque spaz. Doctors screw up and operate on the wrong leg all too often and I doubt they do it because they got high a few days before. Also, let's be fair and assume that a doctor is only going to take one or two hits when s/he will not work for a few days afterwards and, you know, be responsible about his/her use, not take a monster rip from the bong 6 hours before surgery...Hardbody said:
Of course, this says nothing about the legal and professional implications of getting caught with traces of weed in your pee that, as one gets older, tend to weigh more heavily on people than the desire to just relax once in a while. Not to mention trying to hide your pipe and your stash from your kids, etc.
jebus said:
Agree. But it's not an issue of whether recreational drug use is right or wrong, or whether one's opinon is that a certain drug should not be considered a big deal. An applicant's opinion really does not matter, and the world won't change because you or someone thinks it's silly. Bottom line:
(1) it is illegal
(2) the profession has a problem with it, and you want into the profession
(3) some schools have decided it is important enough to test for
(4) you will ultimately be dealing with peoples lives in this career
(5) you will ultimately be administering and prescribing drugs
(6) insurance company coverage terms are likely a driving force behind this, and they want to minimize liability with squeaky clean and sober doctors in their system.
So it's time to get this whole thing out of your system, both figuratively and literally.
jebus said:
I am sure doctors can "screw up" without using any mind altering substance, but I am sure a doctor is more likely to make a mistake if he is using. I cannot imagine getting high on a friday night, then going and studying on a saturday afternoon. I can only imagine that this must be a pretty tall task.
I am a libertarian, and as a libertarian I believe people should be able to do whatever they want AS LONG AS THEY ARE NOT HARMING SOMEONE ELSE, this includes using drugs. I believe that a doctor using drugs and practicing medicine or performing surgery is putting patients at a higher risk than the patient would be if that doctor was not using. I am sure that an occasional blunt on a day off will not really effect the way a doctor practices, but what about when that same doctor becomes addicted and that is all they are thinking about. Imagine being a patient and going in for surgery and while the doctor is operating on you all they are thinking about is getting through the surgery as quick as possible so they can go out and get high. IMHO I think that if drug use is a part of someones life then maybe they should seek another profession where making a mistake is not as big of a deal.
jebus said:
OK. For those for whom it remains appealing, the reasons I enumerated above still apply.
ok im gonna ignore all the bickering and get back to the important issue at hand here people:
does anyone have a list (or care to make one) of schools that drug test. i dont know about you, but i think this is a serious consideration factor in choosing a school - i know it is for me.
does anyone have a list (or care to make one) of schools that drug test. i dont know about you, but i think this is a serious consideration factor in choosing a school - i know it is for me.
Hardbody said:
i agree with this and other sentiments along these lines. so let's act now, folks. as long imperfect humans will need to fill the role of doctors, we should do everything in our power to have them operate with the clarity and efficiency of machines in this profession that is a true magical calling and unlike anything else ever and should be performed very seriously and intensely by those in it. we need to: select doctors from orphanages at a young age after sterilization, so as to limit any distracting emotions in relation to family members while fulfilling their professional obligations; castrate male doctors so they will not be distracted with thoughts of sex that can impede optimal care; send doctors not on duty to recuperation chambers, where they will be provided with only healthy substances for consumption and in which the only entertainment media will be medical texts and journals (there should also be intense lighting set on a timer, so that the doctor will be hard-pressed to sleep outside the 8 hours of darkness, and a large cage-like wheel bolted to the wall on which the doctor can exercise so as to relieve stress and optimize their life-span). if we do any less then we are jeopardizing the very health of our patients through sub-optimal quality of care and less than the total amount of time that it is possible to have a doctor care for patients over her/his lifetime. a doctor not doing everything humanly possible in her/his life to provide the best quality and highest quantity medical care is entirely unacceptable in this profession that is a true magical calling and unlike anything else ever and should be performed very seriously and intensely by those in it. there are no actions that will fall in a grey area. if it conceivably impedes achieving the ultimate goal that many of us in this thread have in mind, then it is unacceptable. artz-arbeit macht frei!
what about people who are better at everything when they're stoned. i know people that, when sober, sit around and do nothing, but then get blunted and start reading tons and think up some crazy ****! like a rearview mirror on a bike. or boxers that wash themselves after each use. or animals with disposable thumbs. no sober person coulda thought of these. but i did. i wasn't sober.
-mota
-mota
BaylorGuy said:
Feel free to add to the list. This is what I know:
Test:
MSSM
Wash U
Don't Test:
Wake Forest
Most people agree that doctors should be held to a higher moral standard, but in reality they are no better than the average Joe. When a doctor loses his/her license, it gets published. It makes for interesting reading: felony, felony, sexual relations with patients, felony, murdered wife, etc. Most of these things are worse than a little pot smoking.
I'm not saying you should break the law, but I wouldn't cancel your trip to Amsterdam.
Test:
MSSM
Wash U
Don't Test:
Wake Forest
Most people agree that doctors should be held to a higher moral standard, but in reality they are no better than the average Joe. When a doctor loses his/her license, it gets published. It makes for interesting reading: felony, felony, sexual relations with patients, felony, murdered wife, etc. Most of these things are worse than a little pot smoking.
I'm not saying you should break the law, but I wouldn't cancel your trip to Amsterdam.
happydays said:
because use is different from abuse
happydays said:
emphasis on *abusing*
doctors abusing alcohol is bad
doctors abusing small animals is bad
what did buddha say? something about the middle path. but I give up. why am I even bothering to argue?
mota, you forgot those books of pictures that you can only see when you relax your eyes! you have to be f*cked up to use them. (please don't tell me they were before your time ... I will go compromise my urine right now in self-pity of how old I am)
centralline said:
Aye aye captain...whats sad is that i know many a resident who has gone for an early lunch and gotten a couple of drinks while being on call that night. I'm not one to judge, but that's just stupid. If you know you are going to be on call, dont drink or smoke. however, if you are off that night, do your thing, then get called to cover for someone else...for god's sake, dont go...tell your attending the truth and they will understand. Better for you to be drunk/stoned and at your house than in the hospital taking care of others.
