DSM-5-TR changes to Autism Spectrum Disorder

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During our ADHD assessments in clinic, I swear 90%+ of CPT administrations came back as invalid. So useless.
Wow. I think I've maybe seen one CPT that came back as invalid, sort of like the MCMI. And that includes multiple evaluations when the patient fell asleep but the results were still "valid" per the printout. At this point, it seems more a test of somewhat-extended distress tolerance (e.g., can the patient make it through without throwing your computer out the window). I know there's lots of cognitive psychology research on continuous performance tests and go-no go tests, but with the way it's setup to identify ADHD...meh.

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Wow. I think I've maybe seen one CPT that came back as invalid, sort of like the MCMI. And that includes multiple evaluations when the patient fell asleep but the results were still "valid" per the printout. At this point, it seems more a test of somewhat-extended distress tolerance (e.g., can the patient make it through without throwing your computer out the window). I know there's lots of cognitive psychology research on continuous performance tests and go-no go tests, but with the way it's setup to identify ADHD...meh.
We used the IVAT, so maybe other CPTs are better?
 
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What I want to know is why I can’t order TR version in electronic format
 
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Counterpoint: Nothing in today's day and age should be labelled as the sexist, completely useless diagnosis of "hysteria"

I agree with ditching the term but Charcot was trying to pick out a group of people who, while much rarer it would seem, you still run into, specifically incredibly suggestible people with predominantly somatic symptoms. They pop up more in medical settings than in mental health focused settings in my experience. I saw a woman in a specialty neurology clinic once who fit this to a real T; as an example, someone in passing compared her to jesus and she reported that she immediately could feel stigmata so intense that she gasped in pain. Another time someone made a comment about her deceased husband (who had died decades before) that she didn't like and she threw herself across his grave and began to sob uncontrollably at the thought that his reputation had been slandered. The kinds of people who seem to be most susceptible to hypnosis and often have trouble with NEBS (AKA "pseudoseizures").

Yes, histrionic captures some of this but that seems to miss out the frequent fixation on bodily experiences/sensations that was part of the original notion.
 
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I just saw a patient who was devastated when I told her that she had bad anxiety over autism. This led to a good a discussion about how she feels like autism was the only way validate her experience. Tbh - never thought about it as a way to communicate how bad things are for the person.
 
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I just saw a patient who was devastated when I told her that she had bad anxiety over autism. This led to a good a discussion about how she feels like autism was the only way validate her experience. Tbh - never thought about it as a way to communicate how bad things are for the person.
It's interesting that an autism diagnosis would have provided her this comfort/validation for what she is struggling with, but an anxiety diagnosis is not. As if it's not enough. Is it a desire to be a part of the ASD community? A sense of belongingness? It's so interesting...this is not the first time I've heard of this type of reaction.
 
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I don’t know anyone who interpreted that as “any” of the three.
Right? Anyone who was diagnosing based on "any" category A symptoms instead of "all" category A symptoms was doing so because the either: a) didn't care; or b) were incompetent. A slight text revision isn't going to change that.
 
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I just saw a patient who was devastated when I told her that she had bad anxiety over autism. This led to a good a discussion about how she feels like autism was the only way validate her experience. Tbh - never thought about it as a way to communicate how bad things are for the person.

I think that's something we see with PTSD in the VA. Veterans seem to be under the impression that it's PTSD or nothing, so they feel really invalidated when given feedback that they don't have PTSD. Of course, there are always going to be patients who storm out regardless, but I do think that it helps if you emphasize that this lack of PTSD diagnosis doesn't minimize what they experienced or how it's impacting them.
 
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I think that's something we see with PTSD in the VA. Veterans seem to be under the impression that it's PTSD or nothing, so they feel really invalidated when given feedback that they don't have PTSD. Of course, there are always going to be patients who storm out regardless, but I do think that it helps if you emphasize that this lack of PTSD diagnosis doesn't minimize what they experienced or how it's impacting them.
We discussed how if you have a jar of ice cream and the label says "mint choccy chip" and you slap a new label over it that says "strawberry" it doesn't magically change the contents of the ice cream - it's still mint chocolate chip - and still your favorite icecream.

From a treatment perspective, I'm thinking about pulling a little more from Rogers than the ACT I'd usually do. If this patient would benefit from a little bit of psychoed about anxiety, give her some tools (PMR/Mindfulness, with a slice of cognitive restructuring), and just tons of empathetic listening - because I think this person just needs a sounding board
 
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It's interesting that an autism diagnosis would have provided her this comfort/validation for what she is struggling with, but an anxiety diagnosis is not. As if it's not enough. Is it a desire to be a part of the ASD community? A sense of belongingness? It's so interesting...this is not the first time I've heard of this type of reaction.
You know i'm not sure, but these are great questions to ask. I didn't consider the sense of belongingness. Maybe that's there, too. Like "oh I finally have a way to relate to myself." The comfort of belonging.

I don't know why this mind blowing to me, but I kind of took it "oh, you don't know how to be self-compassionate to your stress or anxiety - you minimize them. Like, it's okay to struggle from just plain ol' anxiety/stress" It's like if everyone is anxious, then my suffering/experience isn't "real." Not that autism is more acceptable than anxiety for this patient - it's just a way to call for help and way to communicate her challenges to others. Maybe it's also a way for her to get in touch with herself.
 
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I wonder how much of that is due to how acute stress, anxiety, and depression are treated in common parlance. If someone is "just" anxious, then either anxiety is not that big of a deal (because how often do we hear someone say that they're anxious about an upcoming event while not at all referring to an anxiety disorder) or they're unable to cope because of weakness. However, if they're autistic, then there's a sense of the suffering they're undergoing being inherent and that the world wasn't built for them. That's before going into the amount of resources available for autism/PTSD/etc. as opposed to supposedly garden-variety anxiety or depression.
 
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Gonna show my ignorance here. You don't NEED neuropsych testing to diagnose autism, right (similar to ADHD)? Best practice is a structured interview?
 
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Gonna show my ignorance here. You don't NEED neuropsych testing to diagnose autism, right (similar to ADHD)? Best practice is a structured interview?

For the most part, yeag, but also like ADHD evals, lots of comorbidities and differentials, so may still be a good idea if available to do in kiddos. But, also like ADHD, insurers won't pay for any testing in adults, so unless you are also assessing for some other neurologically based condition, pretty much stuck with that interview and some questionnaires.
 
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Gonna show my ignorance here. You don't NEED neuropsych testing to diagnose autism, right (similar to ADHD)? Best practice is a structured interview?
You don't need neuropsych testing to dx autism. But, for best practice you do need an evaluation. The specifics depend on age and communication/functioning, though.

My under five eval looks like:
  • rating scales from multiple informants (usually ASRS and something else)
  • ADOS-2 (often needed for kids to get access to ABA services by insurances)
  • I use a rip off of the ADI-R to qualitatively probe/document behaviors
  • a measure of adaptive functioning (often needed to get services from the state dept of dev. disabilities to document significant functional limitations)
  • I might toss a nonverbal IQ test them, if I feel like it.
My six year and up eval looks like:
  • rating scales from multiple informants (usually ASRS and something else)
  • ADOS-2 (often needed for kids to get access to ABA services by insurances)
  • I use a rip off of the ADI-R to qualitatively probe behaviors
  • Def include IQ testing (because of criterion E - symptoms are "not better explained by ID"). Or try too...
  • A measure of adaptive functioning (often needed to get services from the state dept of dev. disabilities to document significant functional limitations)
  • Maybe some of social cog/theory of mind parts of NEPSY and some of the EF stuff if ADHD is suss.
But, you might not need an eval to dx ASD - but you absolutely need one to get the kid services. A lot of my evals are just jumping through hoops to get the kid services/aba and the kid clearly has ASD. All states differ tho.

I'd be interested in @ClinicalABA's process for his littles. Am I the only one that feels like it's easier to dx in younger kids?
 
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For the most part, yeag, but also like ADHD evals, lots of comorbidities and differentials, so may still be a good idea if available to do in kiddos. But, also like ADHD, insurers won't pay for any testing in adults, so unless you are also assessing for some other neurologically based condition, pretty much stuck with that interview and some questionnaires.
I don't do adults, but would insurers reimburse more if you listed intellectual disability as a differential?
 
You don't need neuropsych testing to dx autism. But, for best practice you do need an evaluation. The specifics depend on age and communication/functioning, though.

My under five eval looks like:
  • rating scales from multiple informants (usually ASRS and something else)
  • ADOS-2 (often needed for kids to get access to ABA services by insurances)
  • I use a rip off of the ADI-R to qualitatively probe/document behaviors
  • a measure of adaptive functioning (often needed to get services from the state dept of dev. disabilities to document significant functional limitations)
  • I might toss a nonverbal IQ test them, if I feel like it.
My six year and up eval looks like:
  • rating scales from multiple informants (usually ASRS and something else)
  • ADOS-2 (often needed for kids to get access to ABA services by insurances)
  • I use a rip off of the ADI-R to qualitatively probe behaviors
  • Def include IQ testing (because of criterion E - symptoms are "not better explained by ID"). Or try too...
  • A measure of adaptive functioning (often needed to get services from the state dept of dev. disabilities to document significant functional limitations)
  • Maybe some of social cog/theory of mind parts of NEPSY and some of the EF stuff if ADHD is suss.
But, you might not need an eval to dx ASD - but you absolutely need one to get the kid services. A lot of my evals are just jumping through hoops to get the kid services/aba and the kid clearly has ASD. All states differ tho.

I'd be interested in @ClinicalABA's process for his littles. Am I the only one that feels like it's easier to dx in younger
I think little ones (under 3) are much easier than older kids. Much fewer rule outs/differential dx. I'm typically looking to distinguish between ASD and language disorder (both with/without ID), and plain old global delays in development. Itvcan be little tougher for thec1-2 year olds, as a few months delay in overall development can look like more than it is, socially and language wise, plus under 18 months and you're not really expecting pretend/ imaginative play or complex social language. My typical eval for a 30- 42 month old includes:

-ADOS-2 (to identify symptoms of ASD)
-Bayley-4 cognitive and language scales (for differential dx and also helping determine determine level of ASD and need for specific speech interventions)
-Vineland-3 completed by parent ( identify impacts of any delays/disorders, as well as get some measures of things I can't see in office, such as ADL skills)
-SRS-2 completed by parent ( further identification of potential ASD symptoms I might not see in-office, with a nice distinction between different areas of social responsiveness)
-interview with caregivers and early intervention staff

Kids between 24-30 months I substitute the BASC-3 for the SRS-2 due to minimum age of srs-2. Under 24 months I don't do either, as they aren't normed that young.

Over 42 months up to 5yo (oldest I'd typically see), sub the WPPSI-IV for the Bayley cognitive. If non-phrase speech, I'd sub the PLS-5 for the Bayley Language. If phrase speech, I might use the CASL instead- it gives better distinction between different areas of language (rather than just expressive and receptive). If theres a compelling reason, I might use the Stanford-Binet -5 or Leiter instead of WPPSI-IV. If kiddo is in school for more than few months, I'll have teachers complete the SRS-2 as well. If things like anxiety, attention problems are suspected, I might add in a BRIEF or BASC-3. 48 months plus, I might add in a Beery VMI and some NEPPSY subtests- generally comprehension of instructions, narrative memory, affect recognition, and theory of mind ( though I see a lot of ASD kids who do well on Affect recognition and TOM subtext who can't apply those skills).

Kids under 42 months with suspected contributing motor delays I might do Bayley-4 motor scales. Older kiddos I'll refer to PT/OT for eval, as that's beyond my zone of comfortabilty and I lack the equipment.
 
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Correcting an earlier statement of mine, reviewing one of the neuropsych policies of one of the payers here. One of the bigger ones will allow testing when ID is on the differential as long as there is some sort of documented impairment.
 
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Correcting an earlier statement of mine, there may be causes of ASD aside from "refrigerator mothers."
 
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Correcting an earlier statement of mine, reviewing one of the neuropsych policies of one of the payers here. One of the bigger ones will allow testing when ID is on the differential as long as there is some sort of documented impairment.
Wow, that's surprising. I wonder if it relates to parity of services somehow, since folks can obtain disability benefits (and thus access to Medicare I believe) for ID...? Or maybe since it's not relating solely to an academic setting.
 
Wow, that's surprising. I wonder if it relates to parity of services somehow, since folks can obtain disability benefits (and thus access to Medicare I believe) for ID...? Or maybe since it's not relating solely to an academic setting.

I suspect in reality, it still depends on how the referral is phrased. Any whiff of psychoed and they'll deny it and make you appeal several times,and in the end, only allow a very small number if units. It's BCBS' MO round these parts
 
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For those of you suggesting batteries (thanks!), what is the standard battery for adults?
 
For those of you suggesting batteries (thanks!), what is the standard battery for adults?
I'll concur with @borne_before- Oh man! I honestly could not imagine doing this with verbal adult. Module-4 is primarily a structured interview format, with sections related to things like social difficulties/annoyance, emotions, Friends/relationships/marriage, loneliness, and plans/hopes. There's a few story telling activities where you are looking for things like social attributions and emotions, as well a demonstration task where the client is asked to basically mime a common task (like washing your hands). I have never administered this Module. I've only done a handful of Module-3 (child fluent speech), and even Module-2 (phrase speech) is pretty rare for me. I'm mainly doing Toddler Module (under 31 months) and Module-1 (pre-verbal/single words). Modules 2 and higher seem to be a lot less criterion based than the earlier mods, and much more subjective. I could see the adult assessments being very influenced by demand characteristics, symptom masking, malingering (non-verbal toddlers don't lie, and that makes my job a bit easier!), etc. (it's pretty much self report). Also, to give the diagnosis based on strict adherence to DSM-5 criteria, all symptoms need to have been present in the "early developmental period." How do you verify that with an adult?

Other than the ADOS, I'm sure there are some checklist and inventories that might get at some the symptoms, but I don't know them offhand. Differential Diagnosis is much more difficult. You need to be sure to identify/rule out things like anxiety (esp. OCD stuff), PDs, and psychotic disorders. You also have to account for personal preferences more in adults than in children- some adults just don't like social interaction, and that's not necessary (or even probably) a sign of pathology. Also- with older clients, you have to look at deficits in social skills, as opposed to deficits in social communication. A client who has never been exposed to proper opportunities to learn and practice social interaction is VERY different from someone who has but still hasn't learned. There are innumerable reasons for lack of social learning opportunities, and this needs to be distinguished from lack of social learning abilities.

All in all, I'll stick to the little kids. Unfortunately, that doesn't address the issue that there are adults who likely meet current/historical criteria for ASD, but weren't dxed as children, can't find apporopriate clinical diagnostic services now, and even if they could would not have access to appropriate treatments.
 
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So what I'm hearing is that the upcoming wave of adult autism eval requests are going to be painful...

I've already gotten pushback from providers when I don't give diagnoses to folks who are just quirky and have zero childhood history of anything resembling autism.
 
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So what I'm hearing is that the upcoming wave of adult autism eval requests are going to be painful...

I've already gotten pushback from providers when I don't give diagnoses to folks who are just quirky and have zero childhood history of anything resembling autism.
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I am in a Facebook group for therapists, with a counselor in training who advertises her being neurodivergent and specializes in working with neurodivergent women. Actually, her mom (who is not a licensed professional) is in the group and is the one constantly posting info advertising “their” services, attesting to her daughter’s competence, and recently said they are going to offer a CE program for other therapists wanting to learn more about autism or something. Or to ask about finding a new supervisor for her daughter, etc. Their goal seems to be diagnosing any female who THINKS they might be “neurodivergent” but have not been diagnosed by any other mental health provider they have worked with. It’s so bizarre. I feel like there are so many levels of messed up there. 🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️
 
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For ADHD… I think just about every adult I’ve worked with either works in a restaurant (or similar job someone in high school would easily have) or is - or plans to become - an “entrepreneur”. Ooh, or any commission-based job. Maybe that could be in a future criteria update.
 
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The engineer stereotype is accurate.
Interesting older article (pop culture, not academic) on this topic:

To get a sense of it, here's a quote from the piece:

"In another age, these men would have been monks, developing new ink for printing presses. Suddenly, they're reproducing at a much higher rate."
 
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Interesting older article (pop culture, not academic) on this topic:

To get a sense of it, here's a quote from the piece:

"In another age, these men would have been monks, developing new ink for printing presses. Suddenly, they're reproducing at a much higher rate."
I love that article I think it does a good job of describing how a disability is an interaction between an environment and a condition/pathology.

Although I was never exposed to DSM-IV in school, I deeply "miss" two categories from it: Asperger's and pervasive developmental disorder-not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS). I miss Aspergers because I think it beautifully captured the struggles of people with autism that do not necessarily need ABA or an extreme level of intervention to be independent - let them be weird, let's get out of their way. I miss PDD-NOS because it was a good catch all for those who weren't clearly autistic, but had some features.

The genetics of autism are fascinating - assortative mating definitely happens. I think now - using a multiple gate approach (with chromosomal microarrays being the first, then onto ASD/IDD panels, and whole exome sequencing)- the geneticists can find a single "likely pathogenic" gene in about 70-80% of kids. Even the single gene approach is falling out of favor for GWAS and gene interactions. It's funny that one in 500 was thought to be the upper estimate during that article. I think we're at one in 60 now. Is this assortative mating? or over diagnosis? or both? Many of my referrals come from our geneticists.
 
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Slightly off-topic, but figured this was the most relevant thread... Does anyone know of any research regarding potential impacts of psychotropic medications on ADOS scores?
 
Slightly off-topic, but figured this was the most relevant thread... Does anyone know of any research regarding potential impacts of psychotropic medications on ADOS scores?
Never researched it, but affective blunting (a side effect of stimulants), extrapyramidal symptoms (a side effect of antipsychotics), etc., could all affect nonverbal communications significantly. Whether or not it would affect ados-2 is a different manner. However, this is why it shouldn't be given alone.
 
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See for example: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...EQFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw06pKK8vGCCQTytan_SD2_8

Decreasing in rates of stereotypy and unusual speech/vocalizations could definitely impact scores. This is not really different than the effects of things like speech therapy, early intervention, ABA, etc.- all things that we need to account for when doing the assessment. Diagnosis can be made by observation or history, and the ADOS-2 is a just piece of that.

I've had kiddos who scored very low on ADOS (lower score = less symptoms) and still got ASD dx, with others scoring relatively higher and not getting diagnosis. These are outliers -ADOS is generally a valid test when used correctly- but some kids just do well with the specific materials, despite their difficulties with other things.
 
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