Dual Applying CaRMS, NRMP. Advice Needed.

[JibsGuy52]

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Canadian Citizen, US Medical Grad

I am indifferent to matching in either country. Both have pros and cons but if it came down to it, would prefer Canada for family.



Here is the problem.

NRMP (USA) Match - March 19 2021

CaRMS - April 21, 2021

Thus, this year due to COVID, the Canadian Match is AFTER the American match.

1. Would I have to forfeit my USA match to apply to Canada? (I am not doing this due to the risk of going unmatched as my step scores are competitive)

2. If I apply both and match USA, then Match Canada, what happens? Do they talk like the roles were reveresed previously?



I have no idea.



Please advise if anyone else is in this situation.

 

[Granulomatosis]

Hello;

Have gone through this situation before, except with reverse order. You can always email CaRMS or ERAS to double check, but based on previous years:

1) If you submit both the CaRMS and the ERAS rank lists, the ERAS will run first (this year). If you match, you will be legally bound to that institution. Your CaRMS list will be deleted immediately, and you will be removed from Canadian consideration. You can not match to the second country if you have successfully matched to the first.
2) If you submit both CaRMS and ERAS and you DO NOT match in ERAS, then your CaRMS match will go ahead as planned. You still have the chance to match to Canada. You would have to ask them whether or not you are still eligible for SOAP, I am not sure.

Basically, you have a few options. You either a) submit both ERAS and CaRMS in their entirety, knowing that if you match anywhere in ERAS your Canadian rank list will be deleted, b) only submit CaRMS if you want to rank Canada first, or c) create a prioritized dual submission (which I would personally recommend). Basically for option c, only rank the schools on ERAS that you would be MORE willing to go to than the Canadian schools, and then submit your full Canadian rank list. This way, if you match to one of the few ERAS ranked schools, great, you wanted to go there more than Canada anyway. If you don't match to any of those schools, then you will still have a shot at all of your Canadian schools a month later (which in this situation, you would theoretically prefer over matching to one of your lower-ranked ERAS schools). Just make sure that if you utilize your strategy, you still feel confident with being able to match to Canada. You should have a sufficient number of interviews there and feel good about your chances.

Does that make sense? I know exactly how confusing this process can be.

 

[izzinator64]

Keep in mind that most CARMS interviews this year are happening in early/mid March - ie, you might be stuck in an awkward position where you might not yet know your Canadian Interview Invites before you have to submit the Rank list in Feb for US schools - which might change your strategy for # of schools you rank for NRMP.

 

[saiyedmo]

In addition to all of what was said above, there might be a strong chance that you will know the NRMP match results (i.e. you will MATCH in the US) before you even have your Canadian interviews. I don't see why anyone would apply to both matches given that the SOAP may also happen before the Canadian Match this year.

 

[JibsGuy52]

Thanks everyone for your advice.
My plan: applying to US only. Still taking MCCQE Part 1 and 2 for fellowship doors in Canada.

 

[Cyrus11]

I am in the same boat. I already had 3 interview from US. I believe I'll get at least one IV from Canada. Is it a good idea that I do not rank US programs and participate in Carms only this year? Thats what I plan to do because my priority is matching in Canada but don't know my chances

 

[Granulomatosis]

I am in the same boat. I already had 3 interview from US. I believe I'll get at least one IV from Canada. Is it a good idea that I do not rank US programs and participate in Carms only this year? Thats what I plan to do because my priority is matching in Canada but don't know my chances

Based on the CaRMS website deadlines, I see that CaRMS interviews don't start till March 8th. You can expect your interviews to come in no earlier than a week after the deadline for the app itself (i.e., no earlier than Feb 15th) and probably no later than the first week of March based on my experience with prev years. You'll probably have heard from the vast majority of Canadian programs about your interview prospects by the March 3rd NRMP deadline.

What you do at that point depends on the specialty you are applying to. Family medicine is not competitive in Canada, but as soon as you get into any the surgical specialties (or even peds or OB), you have very big post-interview competition for spots. A very fair number of Canadian grads go unmatched. If you have >5 interviews I would personally feel a bit more comfortable abandoning the NRMP match, but fewer than that would be dicey. That would come down to a very personal decision about running the risk of going unmatched versus your priority of going to Canada.

Here is the objective CaRMS data if it helps. For context, only 57% of US grads match in Canada after the first iteration. Granted this was during a year when Canada went first (so they probably only ranked the programs they were more willing to go to than the US), but still.

http://carms.ca/pdfs/2020-R-1-2-data-snapshot.pdf

 

[Cyrus11]

Based on the CaRMS website deadlines, I see that CaRMS interviews don't start till March 8th. You can expect your interviews to come in no earlier than a week after the deadline for the app itself (i.e., no earlier than Feb 15th) and probably no later than the first week of March based on my experience with prev years. You'll probably have heard from the vast majority of Canadian programs about your interview prospects by the March 3rd NRMP deadline.

What you do at that point depends on the specialty you are applying to. Family medicine is not competitive in Canada, but as soon as you get into any the surgical specialties (or even peds or OB), you have very big post-interview competition for spots. A very fair number of Canadian grads go unmatched. If you have >5 interviews I would personally feel a bit more comfortable abandoning the NRMP match, but fewer than that would be dicey. That would come down to a very personal decision about running the risk of going unmatched versus your priority of going to Canada.

Here is the objective CaRMS data if it helps. For context, only 57% of US grads match in Canada after the first iteration. Granted this was during a year when Canada went first (so they probably only ranked the programs they were more willing to go to than the US), but still.

http://carms.ca/pdfs/2020-R-1-2-data-snapshot.pdf

Thank you so much for the detailed reply. Yes, I have to wait for the interviews and see how many I will get and decide then. I am going for FM only, so I feel like even with limited number of interviews I would give Canada a chance. I really don't know their selection process and the pool of applicants but for exapmle, in Ontario they sent out only one interview for the whole province and from 300 interviewed applicants 86 matched last year. That's roughly 30% chance of matching in that province alone. I think it worth giving it a shot.

 

[samhab]

I am in the same boat. I already had 3 interview from US. I believe I'll get at least one IV from Canada. Is it a good idea that I do not rank US programs and participate in Carms only this year? Thats what I plan to do because my priority is matching in Canada but don't know my chances

have same issue , but the question is , do they know that we are participating in both , and does that affect our rank by them ?

 

[Granulomatosis]

have same issue , but the question is , do they know that we are participating in both , and does that affect our rank by them ?

While the CaRMS and ERAS systems do know, it is kept confidential from the programs themselves.