Duke vs. Baylor

[Gut Shot]

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It's not that I don't like Texans but it seems a little odd that a highly ranked private institution such as Baylor would have so many in state people in their entering class.

Also bear in mind that Texas is the second largest state both in terms of population and area. There is no shortage of excellent candidates from diverse backgrounds, even within the state borders.

 

[youz]

P.S. I'm not a Baylor alum, but I know quite a bit about the school, and this Baylor bashing is pretty laughable.

You make some good points but I don't think anyone in this thread was "bashing" Baylor. It's a great school, and I doubt anyone would deny this. Although again, it's not for everyone. While you're right about what you say concerning debt and perhaps even in what you consider to be the misguided undergraduate perspective, everyone has their own considerations regarding debt. It is nice of you to share your particular experience, though.

 

[OncoCaP]

You make some good points but I don't think anyone in this thread was "bashing" Baylor. It's a great school, and I doubt anyone would deny this. Although again, it's not for everyone. While you're right about what you say concerning debt and perhaps even in what you consider to be the misguided undergraduate perspective, everyone has their own considerations regarding debt. It is nice of you to share your particular experience, though.

So what did you think of 2nd look? (I assume you went recently)

 

[youz]

Also bear in mind that Texas is the second largest state both in terms of population and area. There is no shortage of excellent candidates from diverse backgrounds, even within the state borders.

I agree. It's also evident that if Baylor did not have good medical students, they would not have matched as they did. However, it is somewhat more regional than it's "top ten" peer institutions. This is not an end-all factor, merely one consideration. I actually went into this cycle with an interest in Texas and its schools. I must admit, though, that it's a long way away from most of my friends and family. This is as opposed to much of the incoming class who likely have both relatively nearby.

 

[OncoCaP]

One thing is becoming very clear to me ... I need to lobby the BCM for a duck pond somewhere in all this new construction they are putting in ... actually make it a duck AND swan pond; it is essential that they have one if they are going to make it into the top 5.

(I realize that there are other nice things about Duke, but the duck pond thing is eating at me for some reason).

 

[youz]

One thing is becoming very clear to me ... I need to lobby the BCM for a duck pond somewhere in all this new construction they are putting in ... it is essential that they have one if they are going to make it into the top 5.

(I realize that there are other nice things about Duke, but the duck pond thing is eating at me for some reason).

Well near that cafeteria area, Baylor's already got that big waterfall. Now all they need is more waterfowl...

 

[Dookter]

One thing is becoming very clear to me ... I need to lobby the BCM for a duck pond somewhere in all this new construction they are putting in ... it is essential that they have one if they are going to make it into the top 5.

(I realize that there are other nice things about Duke, but the duck pond thing is eating at me for some reason).

You know, I think everyone needs to chill a little bit with the duck pond thing. The OP is saying that Duke has a nicer FEEL to it, which it does. It might matter to some people, and it might not matter to others. Some people say, "Bah, who cares about having a great undergrad campus right there?!?!" Well, for the huge % of our class that has participated in IM sports like soccer, basketball, softball, and kickball, they probably do care. For all of the basketball fans in my class who go to the Duke games, they probably care too. Some people say, "Bah, who cares about having places like Duke gardens??!!?" Well, I know I've certainly enjoyed it. It's not about a duck pond, and anyone making those comments needs to realize that. It's about the entire campus and the activities and facilities that students can enjoy. As a current Duke student, I would not pay an extra $70K to go to Duke over Baylor. There's just no way. But some people would be willing to do that, and the nice atmosphere here at Duke is certainly a draw to the school.

 

[OncoCaP]

You know, I think everyone needs to chill a little bit with the duck pond thing. The OP is saying that Duke has a nicer FEEL to it, which it does. It might matter to some people, and it might not matter to others. Some people say, "Bah, who cares about having a great undergrad campus right there?!?!" Well, for the huge % of our class that has participated in IM sports like soccer, basketball, softball, and kickball, they probably do care. For all of the basketball fans in my class who go to the Duke games, they probably care too. Some people say, "Bah, who cares about having places like Duke gardens??!!?" Well, I know I've certainly enjoyed it. It's not about a duck pond, and anyone making those comments needs to realize that. It's about the entire campus and the activities and facilities that students can enjoy. As a current Duke student, I would not pay an extra $70K to go to Duke over Baylor. There's just no way. But some people would be willing to do that, and the nice atmosphere here at Duke is certainly a draw to the school.

No, no ... don't take it the wrong way. Feel is important. For some reason that duck pond is just sticking out in my mind. It's a bit silly just to focus on just that ... like a jingle you can't get out of your head. 🙂

 

[Gut Shot]

While you're right about what you say concerning debt and perhaps even in what you consider to be the misguided undergraduate perspective, everyone has their own considerations regarding debt. It is nice of you to share your particular experience, though.

Some sobering reading:

AMSA on medical student debt
AMSA on the effect of debt
AMA on medical student debt
Figure 5 from the above article: "Debt leads to cynicism and depression"
1999 article in Medical Economics: "Say goodbye to your med school debt." The four cases studies were particularly interesting, although some of their suggestions for dealing with debt are impractical for many:

1. Defer during residency (duh)
2. Borrow against your house (assuming you have one and want to vaporize your equity)
3. Consolidate (duh)
4. Loan repayment programs ("Guess what, honey! We're moving to Shiprock, New Mexico!")
5. Practice in other underserved area with financial incentives
6. Get a high paying job (duh)
7. Join the military (not the most appealing option, these days)

I hate to be the Debt Boogey Man around here, but historically physicians are terrible with their money. The perspective of a premed who lacks experience with educational debt is somewhat analogous to starting a long night of drinking with a brand new credit card. The carefree bliss will inevitably give way to a lengthy hangover punctuated by the dreaded "Receipt of Shame." Ask any group of residents about their respective debts and see what they have to say.

 

[Gut Shot]

One thing is becoming very clear to me ... I need to lobby the BCM for a duck pond somewhere in all this new construction they are putting in ...

My duck pond:

 

[youz]

Some sobering reading:

AMSA on medical student debt
AMSA on the effect of debt
AMA on medical student debt
Figure 5 from the above article: “Debt leads to cynicism and depression”
1999 article in Medical Economics: “Say goodbye to your med school debt.” The four cases studies were particularly interesting, although some of their suggestions for dealing with debt are impractical for many:

1. Defer during residency (duh)
2. Borrow against your house (assuming you have one and want to vaporize your equity)
3. Consolidate (duh)
4. Loan repayment programs (“Guess what, honey! We’re moving to Shiprock, New Mexico!”)
5. Practice in other underserved area with financial incentives
6. Get a high paying job (duh)
7. Join the military (not the most appealing option, these days)

I hate to be the Debt Boogey Man around here, but historically physicians are terrible with their money. The perspective of a premed who lacks experience with educational debt is somewhat analogous to starting a long night of drinking with a brand new credit card. The carefree bliss will inevitably give way to a lengthy hangover punctuated by the dreaded “Receipt of Shame.” Ask any group of residents about their respective debts and see what they have to say.

Very thorough but even so, there are people with different considerations, and the facts don't change that. Broad generalizations about premeds and doctors, while interesting in conversation, are only part of the story. Nice pond, by the way!

 

[Gut Shot]

Very thorough but even so, there are people with different considerations, and the facts don't change that. Broad generalizations about premeds and doctors, while interesting in conversation, are only part of the story.

To be fair, you haven't exactly been forthcoming with details that might be helpful. There are these "other considerations" to which you've alluded, but without a better grasp of your circumstances I'm shooting semi-blind.

Nice pond, by the way!

Thanks, it's in Rice Village. "People, if we meet this week's quota, I'll take you to the most duck-filled pond you ever sat by!"

 

[youz]

Thanks, it's in Rice Village. "People, if we meet this week's quota, I'll take you to the most duck-filled pond you ever sat by!"

Ah, Rice Village, I guess that means you live/d in Houston, hence your knowledge about Baylor... Now everything makes sense.

As far as other considerations I'll have a significant other in Atlanta. I didn't list it before because, while it was probable, it wasn't for sure. Atlanta's a five hour drive from Durham, which is not great but it's better than having to take a flight. Combined with the fact that I liked Duke better and though it was a better school, I now face a difficult decision (though I am grateful for even having the option to decide between these two great schools). No doubt, choosing Duke will leave me with quite a lot of debt, as we've discussed, but when I mentioned the intangible happiness factor, I meant it. I'm still undecided and considering that I can't go to Duke's second look to see if I still get the same vibe from the students/school/ducks, it's one that is even more difficult for me to make. I'm going to take a break from thinking about all of this. I feel like I'm focusing on all the problems and issues this decision entails and not spending enough time appreciating how lucky I am to be in this position in the first place.

 

[Teejay]

Somebody should post Duke's and Baylor's residency match-list.

 

[HumbleMD]

Somebody should post Duke's and Baylor's residency match-list.

I believe Duke's match list has been floating around. They gave us Baylor's over the second visit weekend; I'll try to scan or type it or something sometime this week when I have the time and/or motivation. The only trouble was that it didn't list which programs the subsecialists are attending, only where they're going for the transition year (so who know where Optho kids are going, for example, but I do recall that there were around 7 or 8).

 

[gujuDoc]

Well, if OP goes to a U.S. allo medical school, s/he will most likely get mostly U.S. citizens in his class ... boring! Like my uncle always said, once you have seen one American city, you have pretty much seen them all; sometimes the street names don't even change: 1st Street, 2nd Street, Main Street, MLK, etc. Similar stores ... Home Depot, McD, Blockbuster, Dominos Pizza, Ann Taylor, Radio Shack, etc. The U.S. is not very diverse at all. You have only two major parties: Democrats or Republicans. Heck, Americans speak mostly English some Spanish and the rest is almost in the noise. If OP wants diversity, s/he should go to a Caribbean school because they draw from around the world ... places like Nigeria, Congo, India, China, Russia, France, Lebanon, Iran, Pakistan, Philippines, oh yeah, and the Carribbean (Haiti, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Cayman Islands, etc.), ... now that's what I call diversity! 😉 I'm kidding, of course, ... I love Americans, but I have no illusions about how "diverse" we are relative to the world when it comes to medical school class makeup (or even demographics of our cities).

OK, I better contribute rather than just joke around. I'll be going to Baylor starting in July and one of the things that actually did impress me about the medical school class *is* the diversity. There were people with all kinds of backgrounds, not only just in terms of education, but races, etc. They did share some things in common: they were helpful, socially comfortable, friendly, energetic, and smart, of course. Although many students were Texas Residents, many went to an out-of-state UG school (at least I spoke to several) or have lived outside of Texas. The Texas Medical Center is hard to beat with dozens of hospitals and institutions, and Houston is a big city that can accommodate pretty much every interest easily except, perhaps, mountain climbing and skiing (we don't have local mountains or get much snow here ... but these are just a quick plane ride away). We have people from all over, and we have lots of sick people to learn how to practice medicine on. The area around Baylor and TMC has many museums, Rice, and lots of interesting people with diverse perspectives.

In terms of the "pros" that OP listed wrt Duke, Baylor is known for its excellent program and if you want to explore research, there are tons of opportunities for that. You can do a year of research in one of the Baylor tracks (the "Research Track"). Pre-clinical is 1.5 years ... about as short as it gets. Rice is not very far, so if you are looking for a campus atmosphere, you can hang out over there (and do research there as well). There is an underserved track and international trips you can go on to serve and explore your future career options. It depends on what the OP wants to do.

I guess I am curious as to what the OP's interests are ... can you tell us a little bit about what you like & don't like (research vs clinical), curriculum preferences, hobbies, etc. Medical schools are not "one size fits all." The answer to your question depends heavily on what you like and are looking for in your education.

hahahahahaha soooooooooo true about the street names. We have an MLK street in downtown Sarasota and downtown Tampa. Same with main street and 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. or better yet, 22nd, 15th, etc.

 

[gujuDoc]

To be fair, you haven't exactly been forthcoming with details that might be helpful. There are these "other considerations" to which you've alluded, but without a better grasp of your circumstances I'm shooting semi-blind.



Thanks, it's in Rice Village. "People, if we meet this week's quota, I'll take you to the most duck-filled pond you ever sat by!"

hahahaha You so made me think about this Duke MS I, Mr.Burns10 is her username. Your pic was just classic. She must post in this thread now. muahahahahahahaha

 

[Gut Shot]

As far as other considerations I'll have a significant other in Atlanta.

Well that changes things just a smidge.

I feel your pain, as I'm in Houston and my fiancee is going to study in Georgia for two years. I'll take the 2-2.5 hour direct flight to Atlanta over a 5 hour drive to Durham, but it gets expensive. Were it not for moonlighting I'd probably be screwed. You probably don't need to be told that med school is Hell on long distance relationships.

 

[youz]

Well that changes things just a smidge.

I feel your pain, as I'm in Houston and my fiancee is going to study in Georgia for two years. I'll take the 2-2.5 hour direct flight to Atlanta over a 5 hour drive to Durham, but it gets expensive. Were it not for moonlighting I'd probably be screwed. You probably don't need to be told that med school is Hell on long distance relationships.

Unfortunately I see it coming. I don't know how long you've been apart but it will likely be at least three years in my case. It is possible to fly, I suppose. But the idea of both of us flying in and out every few weeks makes me feel a little bit nauseous. My thought was that being a driving distance apart will make a difference.

 

[OncoCaP]

Ah, Rice Village, I guess that means you live/d in Houston, hence your knowledge about Baylor... Now everything makes sense.

As far as other considerations I'll have a significant other in Atlanta. I didn't list it before because, while it was probable, it wasn't for sure. Atlanta's a five hour drive from Durham, which is not great but it's better than having to take a flight. Combined with the fact that I liked Duke better and though it was a better school, I now face a difficult decision (though I am grateful for even having the option to decide between these two great schools). No doubt, choosing Duke will leave me with quite a lot of debt, as we've discussed, but when I mentioned the intangible happiness factor, I meant it. I'm still undecided and considering that I can't go to Duke's second look to see if I still get the same vibe from the students/school/ducks, it's one that is even more difficult for me to make. I'm going to take a break from thinking about all of this. I feel like I'm focusing on all the problems and issues this decision entails and not spending enough time appreciating how lucky I am to be in this position in the first place.

What's keeping the SO in Atlanta? Job or school? One of the women in my lab has a SO in med school in another state; it is not a good situation; he's trying to get transferred to a nearby school.

 

[AnEyeLikeMars]

Unfortunately I see it coming. I don't know how long you've been apart but it will likely be at least three years in my case. It is possible to fly, I suppose. But the idea of both of us flying in and out every few weeks makes me feel a little bit nauseous. My thought was that being a driving distance apart will make a difference.

I think the driving distance thing makes a huge difference, at least psychologically. Even if the flight is shorter, airline travel is an ordeal. There's something to be said for being able to jump in the car and drive.

 

[HumbleMD]

I posted the match list over on the Baylor thread...

 

[satcool]

Thanks HumbleMD! I am recopying your post here.

Baylor Match List 2007

Anesthesiology: 13
Derm: 6
EM: 7
Family: 7
IM: 22
IM/Prelim (whatever that is): 2
Med/Peds: 3
Military: 1
Neuro: 4
Neurosurgery: 2
OB/GYN: 8
Patho: 2
Peds: 17
Peds-Child Neuro: 3
P.M.&R.: 1
Psych: 9
Rad: 8
Rad. Onc.: 0
Gen. Surgery: 4
Prelim. Surgery: 5
Optho: 7
Ortho: 8
ENT: 10
Plastics: 4
Urology: 3
9 unmatched, 6 other, whatever that means

 

[youz]

Thanks HumbleMD! I am recopying your post here.

Baylor Match List 2007

Anesthesiology: 13
Derm: 6
EM: 7
Family: 7
IM: 22
IM/Prelim (whatever that is): 2
Med/Peds: 3
Military: 1
Neuro: 4
Neurosurgery: 2
OB/GYN: 8
Patho: 2
Peds: 17
Peds-Child Neuro: 3
P.M.&R.: 1
Psych: 9
Rad: 8
Rad. Onc.: 0
Gen. Surgery: 4
Prelim. Surgery: 5
Optho: 7
Ortho: 8
ENT: 10
Plastics: 4
Urology: 3
9 unmatched, 6 other, whatever that means

Thanks for posting satcool and HumbleMD. Question: Is it normal to have 9 unmatched individuals? How did that happen to these individuals and what do they do once they find out that they do not match?

 

[HumbleMD]

Thanks for posting satcool and HumbleMD. Question: Is it normal to have 9 unmatched individuals? How did that happen to these individuals and what do they do once they find out that they do not match?

I wondered the same thing. My student host from Baylor this weekend, who is super bright, is planning on taking a year off to start a family, if that gives any explanation for why someone might not match. I think the 6 Derm, 8 Rad, 7 Optho, and 8 Ortho matches might ally those fears though. And my goodness, Baylor is so much cheaper (and gives you an incentive to purchase a condo and have in-state tuition - and graduate with equity rather than just debt), and Houston is way cooler than Durham. Me, I'd go with Baylor, mostly because I hated Duke when I visited.

 

[youz]

I wondered the same thing. My student host from Baylor this weekend, who is super bright, is planning on taking a year off to start a family, if that gives any explanation for why someone might not match. I think the 6 Derm, 8 Rad, 7 Optho, and 8 Ortho matches might ally those fears though. And my goodness, Baylor is so much cheaper (and gives you an incentive to purchase a condo and have in-state tuition - and graduate with equity rather than just debt), and Houston is way cooler than Durham. Me, I'd go with Baylor, mostly because I hated Duke when I visited.

Yea it is, though not quite as cheap for out-of-staters. I'm curious, though, why did you hate duke? And was it the med school you didn't like or was it for something else?

 

[OncoCaP]

Yea it is, though not quite as cheap for out-of-staters. ...

Buy a condo and you'll be in-state in a year (at least that's what I heard ... check the details).

 

[HumbleMD]

Buy a condo and you'll be in-state in a year (at least that's what I heard ... check the details).

I'm OOS and that would be the plan. The woman at second look confirmed that this is indeed possible to do. Frankly, I think the idea of graduating with medical school with less debt, AND with 90K in equity is pretty great, becaue the IS tuition gives you a perfect reason to buy a condo.

And honestly, Baylor OOS is the same as UMich IS tuition. Pretty crazy...

 

[OncoCaP]

I'm OOS and that would be the plan. The woman at second look confirmed that this is indeed possible to do. Frankly, I think the idea of graduating with medical school with less debt, AND with 90K in equity is pretty great, becaue the IS tuition gives you a perfect reason to buy a condo.

And honestly, Baylor OOS is the same as UMich IS tuition. Pretty crazy...

So you are thinking of turning down UPenn for Baylor? That would be a statement! I guess it depends on whether you get a full ride?

 

[HumbleMD]

So you are thinking of turning down UPenn for Baylor? That would be a statement! I guess it depends on whether you get a full ride?

It's definitely a possibility. I'm fully convinced that I would be happy at Baylor, UPenn, UMich, WashU, or Emory, so everything is going to come down to finances for me. Scholarship decisions are tomorrow at Baylor, Friday at UMich, and I'm def. not getting a dime from UPenn.

 

[OncoCaP]

It's definitely a possibility. I'm fully convinced that I would be happy at Baylor, UPenn, UMich, WashU, or Emory, so everything is going to come down to finances for me. Scholarship decisions are tomorrow at Baylor, Friday at UMich, and I'm def. not getting a dime from UPenn.

((((🙂luck: ))))) I hope you get multiple free rides and then you really have a problem to decide. 😛

I'm going to Baylor no matter what they give me.

 

[youz]

It's definitely a possibility. I'm fully convinced that I would be happy at Baylor, UPenn, UMich, WashU, or Emory, so everything is going to come down to finances for me. Scholarship decisions are tomorrow at Baylor, Friday at UMich, and I'm def. not getting a dime from UPenn.

That's great, congrats on all the choices! If you do choose UMich, though, bring a very warm coat. I'm not sure when you interviewed but when I went it was unbelievably cold (and I've lived in cold places most of my life)! Their facilities were great, though, so if you do end up going there, I'm sure you'll get a great education.

 

[HumbleMD]

That's great, congrats on all the choices! If you do choose UMich, though, bring a very warm coat. I'm not sure when you interviewed but when I went it was unbelievably cold (and I've lived in cold places most of my life)! Their facilities were great, though, so if you do end up going there, I'm sure you'll get a great education.

I'm a born Michigander and have been to UMich for undergrad, so I'm very familiar with the cold. I love everything about UMich besides the fact that it would mean being in Ann Arbor for 4 more years...

 

[goodoldalky]

Take it from someone with six figures of debt, these elements are nowhere near "$70,000 significant." Med school flies by, much of it with either your head shoved in a book or doing H&P's in county at 3 AM. If you're envisioning med school filled with days spent strolling by the duck filled pond, rooting for the basketball team and being enriched by interaction with interesting colleagues from all over the nation, I'd say you need to lay off the mescaline.

While I think that there will be time to stop and smell the roses in med school (you've got to enjoy the ride, huh?), I agree with GS in that the money is a HUGE issue. For me, it may be the biggest issue. I may be alone (unlikely), in that, but for what it's worth, I say listen to this guy.

 

[FemalesCANTDriv]

Baylor Match List 2007

Derm: 6
Rad: 8
Optho: 7
Ortho: 8
ENT: 10
Plastics: 4
Urology: 3

😱 😱

 

[Gut Shot]

Fun with numbers.

Let’s say to spend an extra $50,000 on med school.

If you pay it back over 10 years at 6.80%:
Monthly payment: $575.40
Total interest paid: $19,048.20

If you pay it back over 30 years at 6.80%:
Monthly payment: $325.96
Total interest paid: $67,346.53

Notice that in the 30 year scenario you end up paying more in interest than the original principal balance. Now let’s suppose you go to the cheaper med school and instead invest what you would have paid on that extra 50K (interest assessed quarterly).

Invest $575 a month at 6.80% return:
After 10 years: $99,568
Halt further payments and after 20 additional years: $386,449

Invest $325 a month at 6.80% return:
After 30 years:$383,678

Now, on the one hand, money isn’t everything and it can’t buy happiness. On the other hand, over the course of your career you’ll meet plenty of high-income physicians living paycheck to paycheck.

Be careful out there.

 

[Stolenspatulas]

Fun with numbers.

Let's say to spend an extra $50,000 on med school.

If you pay it back over 10 years at 6.80%:
Monthly payment: $575.40
Total interest paid: $19,048.20

If you pay it back over 30 years at 6.80%:
Monthly payment: $325.96
Total interest paid: $67,346.53

Notice that in the 30 year scenario you end up paying more in interest than the original principal balance. Now let's suppose you go to the cheaper med school and instead invest what you would have paid on that extra 50K (interest assessed quarterly).

Invest $575 a month at 6.80% return:
After 10 years: $99,568
Halt further payments and after 20 additional years: $386,449

Invest $325 a month at 6.80% return:
After 30 years:$383,678

Now, on the one hand, money isn't everything and it can't buy happiness. On the other hand, over the course of your career you'll meet plenty of high-income physicians living paycheck to paycheck.

Be careful out there.

im skeptical about this.

 

[HumbleMD]

im skeptical about this.

That and the expectation of investing while in medical school is a little silly. I think the bigger point of drawing attention to the realities of debt is something important, especially for many of us here. We have a tendency to think "bah, I'm going to be a whole bunch in debt, what's an extra 50 grand?" When taking repayment and interest into account, that 50 grand can make a huge difference. My favorite is when people start to bring up the whole "happiness" thing for med school, and how it should be the overriding decision factor, even in the face of a $100K or more disparity. I don't know about all y'all, but I would certainly pass up my uber dream school for another I'd be perfectly happy at and get a similarly great education at for $100,000 (although maybe everyone isn't as flexible as I am). That extra $100,000 could certainly buy a lot of happinnness later on (I'm thinking a Jaguar XKR right now).

 

[ryandote]

Fun with numbers.

Let’s say to spend an extra $50,000 on med school.

If you pay it back over 10 years at 6.80%:
Monthly payment: $575.40
Total interest paid: $19,048.20

If you pay it back over 30 years at 6.80%:
Monthly payment: $325.96
Total interest paid: $67,346.53

Notice that in the 30 year scenario you end up paying more in interest than the original principal balance. Now let’s suppose you go to the cheaper med school and instead invest what you would have paid on that extra 50K (interest assessed quarterly).

Invest $575 a month at 6.80% return:
After 10 years: $99,568
Halt further payments and after 20 additional years: $386,449

Invest $325 a month at 6.80% return:
After 30 years:$383,678

Now, on the one hand, money isn’t everything and it can’t buy happiness. On the other hand, over the course of your career you’ll meet plenty of high-income physicians living paycheck to paycheck.

Be careful out there.

One problem with your scenario is that you can garun-damn-tee that you will be paying that rate. You can't garuntee you will receive that rate.

 

[Gut Shot]

That and the expectation of investing while in medical school is a little silly.

I never alleged that one would be investing while in med school. Typically people don't repay their loans (or start investing in earnest) until they are in practice.

 

[Gut Shot]

You can't garuntee you will receive that rate.

Very true, but I wanted to underscore that the same rate you're paying can do a lot for you if the tables are turned. Besides, given a 30 year horizon and the average returns of the stock market and muni bond markets for the past 120 years, even with inflation and taxes figured in, a 6.8% return isn't too wild.

 

[Gut Shot]

im skeptical about this.

Healthy skepticism is a good thing, but the tendency for one's lifestyle to expand to fit one's income is a very powerful force. It's nothing unique to doctors, mind you. I happen to be acquainted with a high power attorney in town who regularly clears seven figures, yet he overdrafts is bank account regularly.

 

[ryandote]

Very true, but I wanted to underscore that the same rate you're paying can do a lot for you if the tables are turned. Besides, given a 30 year horizon and the average returns of the stock market and muni bond markets for the past 120 years, even with inflation and taxes figured in, a 6.8% return isn't too wild.

Touche. However, 60 years of super-positive return + 60 years of super-negative return could result in the average rate that you quote. I suppose the difference is risk-aversion and most of our guts help us understand our personal risk aversion index.

 

[Uncle Izzy]

Fun with numbers.

Let’s say to spend an extra $50,000 on med school.

If you pay it back over 10 years at 6.80%:
Monthly payment: $575.40
Total interest paid: $19,048.20

If you pay it back over 30 years at 6.80%:
Monthly payment: $325.96
Total interest paid: $67,346.53

Notice that in the 30 year scenario you end up paying more in interest than the original principal balance. Now let’s suppose you go to the cheaper med school and instead invest what you would have paid on that extra 50K (interest assessed quarterly).

Invest $575 a month at 6.80% return:
After 10 years: $99,568
Halt further payments and after 20 additional years: $386,449

Invest $325 a month at 6.80% return:
After 30 years:$383,678

Now, on the one hand, money isn’t everything and it can’t buy happiness. On the other hand, over the course of your career you’ll meet plenty of high-income physicians living paycheck to paycheck.

Be careful out there.

100K+ in debt can be managed many different ways. It's important to realize, first of all, that when you die, your educational loans go away and dont get passed on to your estate or benficiaries. Second, if you can refinance that 6%+ at some point while in med school, youre in better shape as well.

FOR EXAMPLE>>>
Some of my classmates were able to consolidate loans below 3.5% (some even below 3%). On a 100K loan, they will defaut payment until after residency citing "financial hardship." At the end of residency, they will likely never pay back the principal of the loan and make interest only payments.

SO- they will be paying 3000 a year. At that rate, at the end of 33 yrs, they will have paid the equivalent of the loan in interest. Over that period, they will be investing at a much higher rate that their fixed interest rate (you can easily get a 5% money market account and let your money build there). So, they never in fact intend on paying back the loan.

THE INSTANCE ABOVE IS A UNIQUE SITUATION-For many other people, they will not be able to secure such low rates. However...

With that said, there are two types of socially acceptable debt in this country. First is a home mortgage and second in education loans. Education loans are an investment in yourself. This is the best investment you can ever make. Also, be sure to factor in financial aid, scholarships, etc..

Don't let money get too much in the way of your education. You are entering into a profession that should provide you with an opportunity to pay it back while still living a more than ample lifestyle.

I bet very few people here can say they know a practicing physician in good standing that has major issues with financial security while leaving a decent lifestyle.

 

[Teejay]

Thanks HumbleMD! I am recopying your post here.

Baylor Match List 2007

Anesthesiology: 13
Derm: 6
EM: 7
Family: 7
IM: 22
IM/Prelim (whatever that is): 2
Med/Peds: 3
Military: 1
Neuro: 4
Neurosurgery: 2
OB/GYN: 8
Patho: 2
Peds: 17
Peds-Child Neuro: 3
P.M.&R.: 1
Psych: 9
Rad: 8
Rad. Onc.: 0
Gen. Surgery: 4
Prelim. Surgery: 5
Optho: 7
Ortho: 8
ENT: 10
Plastics: 4
Urology: 3
9 unmatched, 6 other, whatever that means

It looks more like any good school. I guess after the ivy's and top 5, the match list for most schools look the same. Do you have the specific programs they are going to?

 

[satcool]

Someone stated in the class of 2011 thread that the match list was pasted outside the student affairs office door...but don't know if anyone is willing to copy it all.

 

[jennifermov]

My duck pond:

ooohhh! the gingerman! i LOOOOVE that place! it was my "bulldog" away from home when i was in houston. (ps - i'm referring to the bulldog in new orleans on magazine - has the same sort of set up, tons of beer on tap, etc...)

Combined with the fact that I liked Duke better and though it was a better school, I now face a difficult decision (though I am grateful for even having the option to decide between these two great schools). No doubt, choosing Duke will leave me with quite a lot of debt, as we've discussed, but when I mentioned the intangible happiness factor, I meant it. I'm still undecided and considering that I can't go to Duke's second look to see if I still get the same vibe from the students/school/ducks, it's one that is even more difficult for me to make. I'm going to take a break from thinking about all of this. I feel like I'm focusing on all the problems and issues this decision entails and not spending enough time appreciating how lucky I am to be in this position in the first place.

to the OP - i originally entered this thread to make a STUPID joke about choosing duke to open another bcm spot. but after reading your comments, i think i can relate to your dilemma. sounds like you are torn between what you *want* to do and what you think you *should* do (as in, what is the "smart" decision). here's my experience: twice - during my undergrad and grad experience - i had a hard decision about choosing which school to attend. both times, i made what i felt was the "smart" decision. i still remember being in my dad's office and telling him that that i *want* to go to school X for grad school, but i will go to school Y, because i would be stupid to pass up that opportunity. BOTH times (in undergrad and grad), i found myself VERY unhappy (which affected my performance) and eventually made some sort of change after 2 years. let's just say when it comes to deciding on which med school to attend next year, i'm trying a new approach. 🙂 you won't go wrong at either school; both have great reputations for producing excellent physicians. it appears that there are no specific stipulations (financial, geographical, etc) that eliminate either of your choices. therefore, i say you should follow your instinct....and if you still think you don't have a clear-cut winner, go back and read your posts....because i think it's pretty obvious which direction you're leaning in.

i hope that makes sense! 🙂