Duke vs. Yale...

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There is one thing the confuses me: Current duke students say that taking step 1 after the second year (clinical) is a good idea because it is preparation for the clinical vignettes. But the majority of medical students take Step 1 without having ever stepped foot on the wards... Which leads me to wonder why we shouldn't take Step 1 after the first year??? I haven't heard a good answer to this...

Well, I have an answer from this, and I didn't hear it from anyone. I got it from a little thing I like to call life's lessons. The reason it is advantageous for us to take that 2nd clinical year before the Step 1 is because learning medicine through experience (rather than some textbook or ppt slides) is what makes the information really stick and hit home. Those or my two cents.

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Well, I have an answer from this, and I didn't hear it from anyone. I got it from a little thing I like to call life's lessons. The reason it is advantageous for us to take that 2nd clinical year before the Step 1 is because learning medicine through experience (rather than some textbook or ppt slides) is what makes the information really stick and hit home. Those or my two cents.

I've actually offered this information multiple times, but I will do it again (*sigh*). Duke has done a study. The MS1s take a practice Step1 after first year, with no preparation (we just did it a few weeks ago, it was terrible). They then take it again after second year, again with no preparation. The scores always go up. Therefore, something about clinical year at least helps solidify the information into our brains. This difference may not be that big once you add in studying to the mix, but there you have it.

Also, to Husky, Duke students actually start working with patients during first year. We devote second and fourth year to rotations. Third year actually involves a mandatory clinical component that students who stay at Duke are required to participate in on a regular basis (weekly or every other week I think). Students that choose to do their research away have to make up the module in a month long course before fourth year. I'd say the amount of our clinical exposure is therefore comparable to that of most other schools.
 
Well, I have an answer from this, and I didn't hear it from anyone. I got it from a little thing I like to call life's lessons. The reason it is advantageous for us to take that 2nd clinical year before the Step 1 is because learning medicine through experience (rather than some textbook or ppt slides) is what makes the information really stick and hit home. Those or my two cents.

So everyone else is that has the traditional two year curriculum is missing out? Step 1 is a standardized test. IMO, learning through experience adds little value to the final test result. There was not a single experience other than directly preparing for the test, that added significant value to any standardized test I have taken in my life (GMAT, GRE, MCAT, SAT) . I'm betting Step 1 is the same way.

The only way to truly know would be to compare step 1 scores by institution. On the interview trail, I got really tired of hearing students at every school say some variation of, "we do really well on the boards." I REALLY wish medical schools would release that information!!! I think it would help more than hurt.
 
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I bet you'd see a lot of surprises if med schools did release this data. You'd probably find that 90% of schools were about average and a few below and a few above. I know for a fact that there are some schools (RFU for ex) that have much higher board scores than people would expect.

This would be kind of like comparing MCAT schools among pre-med programs. Standardized tests are about how well you prepare for them, everyone at every US medical school learns the info to do well on the boards, doing well is just a combination of hard work and luck.
 
I've actually offered this information multiple times, but I will do it again (*sigh*). Duke has done a study. The MS1s take a practice Step1 after first year, with no preparation (we just did it a few weeks ago, it was terrible). They then take it again after second year, again with no preparation. The scores always go up. Therefore, something about clinical year at least helps solidify the information into our brains. This difference may not be that big once you add in studying to the mix, but there you have it.

Thanks! Sorry for making you post that again. I don't necessarily agree that second year is valuable in "solidifying" information, but at least I understand the rationale. I think the studying is the big piece.

Enough about boring stuff, I'm headed over to the Duke thread...

Husky: UConn sucks😀!

I say this because I love Tennessee women's basketball. I worked and attended basketball camps every summer in high school and had a chance to hang out with the men's and women's teams in the late mid 90s. Note: this comment is only related to UConn women's basketball and other sports programs.
 
Husky: UConn sucks😀!

I say this because I love Tennessee women's basketball. I worked and attended basketball camps every summer in high school and had a chance to hang out with the men's and women's teams in the late mid 90s. Note: this comment is only related to UConn women's basketball and other sports programs.

I have tons of respect for all the Vols women's b-ball players (shhhh, don't tell Geno I said that!)...because they're talented...and because they tolerate that evil she-wolf of a coach that you guys have. She has to be up there in the running for most obnoxious woman in the world!

And we can both agree then that Duke basketball sucks!!! 😀
 
I have tons of respect for all the Vols women's b-ball players (shhhh, don't tell Geno I said that!)...because they're talented...and because they tolerate that evil she-wolf of a coach that you guys have. She has to be up there in the running for most obnoxious woman in the world!

And we can both agree then that Duke basketball sucks!!! 😀

I love Coach Summitt! She STILL remembers my name (I ran into her in Nashville a year ago).

Geno is the love child of Bobby Knight and George W. Bush.

I don't particularly care for Duke b-ball, although I did have a high school friend play for them a few years back. That being said, I will definitely go to the games if I can get some freakin tickets.
 
I love Coach Summitt! She STILL remembers my name (I ran into her in Nashville a year ago).

Geno is the love child of Bobby Knight and George W. Bush.

I don't particularly care for Duke b-ball, although I did have a high school friend play for them a few years back. That being said, I will definitely go to the games if I can get some freakin tickets.

Whoa... what's wrong with Bobby Knight. You're talkin to a Texas Tech Alum here you know 😀
 
Whoa... what's wrong with Bobby Knight. You're talkin to a Texas Tech Alum here you know 😀

I think Bobby Knight is the third greatest college basketball coach of all time (behind wooden and dean smith), but anyone who knows basketball knows he is extremely sadistic and abusive.

So who wears the pants in this relationship?

Dick Cheney...
 
But seriously...if you want to be a good practicing physician you're better off at yale or another school. Duke does a great job at training physician-scientists...not necessarily practicing physicians. And if you want to have a life outside medical school, Duke students are run into the ground, especially during the intensive first year, where Yale students have more free time and better things to do to enjoy that free time.

Having been a Duke med student, been involved in the med school admissions process at Duke, and now being a Duke house officer, I must disagree with the above unfair assertions. As it was said earlier in the post, the clinical training at Duke hospital is actually far superior to Yale. Although the Yale undergrad name is quite powerful, its med school isn't nearly as great, and its hospital is DEFINITELY not. Ask most any residency program director in just about any program (and I've spoken to many), and odds are you'll hear that Duke is a far better place to train compared to Yale, no matter what field you're interested in. Plus, a better hospital/health center = better residents, and guess who you learn the most from when you're on the wards? The house staff! Although Yale is certainly a great medical school, it's still much easier to make the case that Duke students get much better clinical training for the above reasons. Plus, Duke students do much better on average on the boards, and it's tough to argue with that as a benchmark, since it's used by residency programs as well (although it admittedly has its limitations).

I also must disagree about the "free time" issue. Although Duke has just one preclinical year, it's unfair to assume that Duke students thus work twice as hard and have half as much free time, or are somehow "run into the ground" as you claim. In fact, as I've pointed out countless times on this board (do a search and you'll see), the Duke curriculum cuts out almost half of what other schools cover in their preclinical courses (and for good reason, because it's not covered on the boards, and you learn it on the wards anyway, which makes it stick much better). In addition, the Duke first year is almost 12 months long, compared to the usual 9 or so months at a traditional medical school. This means the pace is actually quite similar, as is the workload, and there's still plenty of vacation time. Having talked to countless medical students from across the country, I promise you that Duke students work just as much as anyone else, but not significantly more so.

Finally, having lived in Durham for over 5 years now, I could go on and on about its merits. Sure, it's not a big city, so if that's what you're looking for then look elsewhere, but it's a fantastic town with lots to offer. The cost of living here is absurdly low, so life as a student or resident is MUCH more comfortable than it would be elsewhere. You can afford to have a car here, housing is obscenely cheap, and you can even buy a house/townhome and make some money in the process! There are tons of great restaurants, good night-life in Chapel Hill and Raleigh, both of which are within 15 minutes by car, and easy accessibility to beaches and mountains. And despite what you'll hear about crime here, Durham is actually a very safe place to live.

If you're thinking about Duke, the most important thing to consider is the curriculum. You need to figure out how you learn best, and see if our curriculum fits you. If you're a hands-on learner who needs the context of patients to best learn medicine, then Duke is ideal, as you'll get on the wards a whole year sooner, which makes an enormous difference. In my experience, having worked with residents from other med schools, it makes Duke students stronger by the end of 4th year than students from many peer institutions. But if, on the other hand, you're someone who needs group learning, and wants PBL, then Duke is not the place for you.
 
So everyone else is that has the traditional two year curriculum is missing out? Step 1 is a standardized test. IMO, learning through experience adds little value to the final test result. There was not a single experience other than directly preparing for the test, that added significant value to any standardized test I have taken in my life (GMAT, GRE, MCAT, SAT) . I'm betting Step 1 is the same way.
It's true though, what diosa says...Duke students do quite a bit better after the clinical year, without any preparation for step 1. It dosen't mean that non-Duke students are "missing out," it just means that the test was designed to be taken before the clinical year and that Duke students get to do it later, which may confer a bit of an advantage. The reason why it matters is that although step 1 tests "pre-clinical knowledge," it frames the questions in very clinical ways, often with a patient vignette. While the ultimate question may ask about a biochemical pathway, students who have more clinical experience are able to much more quickly interpret the vignette, come up with a diagnosis, place lab values into the clinical context more easily, etc., and thus have more time and information with which to correctly answer the actual question. Although your personal experience may tell you otherwise, the data doesn't lie...the clinical year makes a difference.

Regarding the release of board scores, I believe this was done about 5 years or so ago. I'm not sure of the details of how/why these were released, but there were some posts here about it, and it was said that Penn had the highest Step 1 average, followed by Duke, at around 234 if I remember correctly. My class averaged closer to 240. It's tough to argue with the numbers.
 
Regarding the release of board scores, I believe this was done about 5 years or so ago. I'm not sure of the details of how/why these were released, but there were some posts here about it, and it was said that Penn had the highest Step 1 average, followed by Duke, at around 234 if I remember correctly. My class averaged closer to 240. It's tough to argue with the numbers.

and I believe RFU had an average in the 230s as well. You're extremely naive if you think going to one med school over another is going to help you on the boards. All that's going to help you is hard work.
 
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and I believe RFU had an average in the 230s as well. You're extremely naive if you think going to one med school over another is going to help you on the boards. All that's going to help you is hard work.

Whoa... hopefully you don't carry that attitude with you into medical school. Have you ever heard of showing a bit of respect for your superiors??? TommyGunn has just spent all this time outlining for all of us what med school and residency are really all about and all you want to talk about is that damn RFU average. BTW, TommyGunn never said anything refuting RFU having a ****ty school compared to Duke or Penn. He was merely stating that the avg board scores for Duke show that the curriculum really works and is probably one of the best since the avg board scores are one of the best.
 
My point with RFU was only to question his statistics, which must have certainly changed in the past 5 years, as there are other schools besides Duke and Penn averaging in the 230s.

BTW, I have nothing but respect for RFU which is why I bothered to pay for a ticket out there to interview, and hate to see how often the school is trashed on this forum.
 
and I believe RFU had an average in the 230s as well. You're extremely naive if you think going to one med school over another is going to help you on the boards. All that's going to help you is hard work.

I agree with that in principle, but if the top two average USMLE scores are at two of the three schools that take Step I after clerkships that certainly says that their method is valid. I wonder where Baylor ranked in all that.
 
My point with RFU was only to question his statistics, which must have certainly changed in the past 5 years, as there are other schools besides Duke and Penn averaging in the 230s.

BTW, I have nothing but respect for RFU which is why I bothered to pay for a ticket out there to interview, and hate to see how often the school is trashed on this forum.

Well no one said anything about RFU on this thread except for you so... +pity+
 
Well no one said anything about RFU on this thread except for you so... +pity+

So CTtarheel can't use an example without you guys jumping all over him?

Everyone knows that RFU gets a bad rep...deservedly or undeservedly (to be honest I don't have any first hand info regarding the school so I don't have an opinion)...so don't jump all over the guy for using RFU as an example of a school whose students do about as well as Duke's on the boards...if you don't like what he's saying, prove him wrong with facts...tell us how a Duke education will help you get better board scores...because other schools with very different curricula (ie RFU) do about as well on the boards

...or you could try to refute the theory that board scores are a product of individual effort and less a product of the institution when you were taught.

The whole "no you're wrong cuz i said so and cuz you're a meanie" arguement is stale and childish.
 
So CTtarheel can't use an example without you guys jumping all over him?

...or you could try to refute the theory that board scores are a product of individual effort and less a product of the institution when you were taught.

The whole "no you're wrong cuz i said so and cuz you're a meanie" arguement is stale and childish.

Husky, I don't even know if you are reading the same posts as we are anymore. All I was saying about RFU is that no one even brought up RFU or any other school for that matter in regards to Step 1 scores or anything else. If you'll check the title of the thread, this is a thread about Yale and Duke. These are the schools we are comparing so it's a bit strange for someone to go off on a tangent about RFU. I am not trying to refute any theory about RFU, either, because I don't give a rats a$$ about RFU. Once again, this thread is comparing Duke and Yale. If you wanna make a Duke vs. Yale vs. RFU thread, then be my guest. But for now, to clear up any confusion, no one cares about RFU. Stick to Duke vs. Yale like everyone else 🙂
 
I agree with that in principle, but if the top two average USMLE scores are at two of the three schools that take Step I after clerkships that certainly says that their method is valid. I wonder where Baylor ranked in all that.
I'd just like to throw my two cents in about evaluating statistics. If you see that Duke students do better after the clinical year than before, all you can really infear is that in the context of that cirriculum, Duke students are better prepared after the second year than after the first. You can't look at that and say it proves that the clinical experience is what makes the difference, rather than just the additional year in school.The study you are looking at is just at Duke. And showing that students who have finished two years of medical education do better than those who have done one is sorta like, duh. Similarly, by comparing schools that do the test after the clincal year to those that don't is a cross sectional study. There my be other factors that explain the scores, such as the type of appliants who are attracted to the school, or other aspects of the cirriculum second year besides the clinical time, like more time to study for boards. To truely compare the cirriculum you would have to find a group of equal students, say those that go to Duke and those that got in and turned it down. Then test them at the end of first year and the end of second year and see how their scores match up.

Disclosure: I go to Yale. I'm not arguing that we do better on boards or our system is better or worse. But the fact that a school does well on boards and also happens to have a unique cirriculum doesn't prove that cirriculum per say creates better board scores.
 
Pick your poison: conservative southern bigots or preppie New England shmucks?

(I am, of course, neglecting all the wonderful things about both schools...)
 
But the fact that a school does well on boards and also happens to have a unique cirriculum doesn't prove that cirriculum per say creates better board scores.

Ah. I was arguing nothing of the sort. I just meant that if Duke, Penn, and Baylor are doing about as well (a few points off in an average is pretty negligible) as schools of similar selectivity (such as Yale) then students are certainly not losing anything by having clinical experiences before Step I. The main limitation is that we only have one data point.
 
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