Easiest place in Philadelphia to match?

[Blitz2006]

Whats up,

I'm a British medical student, and this summer I am planning on doing an observership in Internal Medicine as well as General Surgery.

My goal is to eventually do residency in the U.S. I'm going to be applying for observerships this summer in Philadelphia, and I want to make some contacts this summer for the future (residency matching).

So which of hospitals/institutions take the most IMGs for General Surgery/Internal Medicine in Philly for residency matching?

Temple? Drexel? UPenn? Jefferson?

Replies appreciated, thanks.

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[smq123]

I'm a British medical student, and this summer I am planning on doing an observership in Internal Medicine as well as General Surgery.

My goal is to eventually do residency in the U.S. I'm going to be applying for observerships this summer in Philadelphia, and I want to make some contacts this summer for the future (residency matching).

So which of hospitals/institutions take the most IMGs for General Surgery/Internal Medicine in Philly for residency matching?

Temple? Drexel? UPenn? Jefferson?

I can't imagine that Penn is going to take an IMG in ANY of their programs, unless you were really stellar. The fact that you are British (and not from, say, China or India) may make a difference, but I can't be 100% sure.

Jefferson doesn't tend to take many IMGs, either. Very few of their IM residents are IMGs, as far as I can remember - there was one last year, but he was a definite exception. The only IMGs that they have in gen surg were "refugee" residents that they rescued when Graduate Hospital closed a few years back.

Drexel and Temple probably take more IMGs. Again, I can't say for sure.

Some questions:
- Why does it have to be one of those 4? There are a LOT of other community hospitals in the area that take plenty of IMGs, in both surgery and IM. Pennsylvania Hospital probably takes its fair share (at least in IM; they merged their gen surg program with Penn, I believe). Abington, Lankenau, and Einstein all take a lot of IMGs.

- Any particular reason why it has to be Philadelphia?

- Where are you doing your observerships? I hope that you find them fun - I think that most of the observers in gen surg that have come to Jefferson tend to get somewhat bored (since they're not allowed to really do anything except watch), but I hope you find your experiences useful.

 

[Blitz2006]

Appreciate the fast response!

Yeah, it doesn't have to be those 4. Those are just the 4 centres I know in Philly, but I'm open to anything.

Oh, I'm planning on writing my Step 1 this summer, and I have a friend who is a medical student at Jefferson. So I will be able to live with him this summer, hence the reason why I want to be in Philadelphia. He lives downtown, so anything close to his place (he lives 1 block from Jefferson) will be good. And I know Temple-Drexel-UPenn are fairly close by subway (since I won't have a car this summer).

I did two observerships last summer at Johns Hopkins. So I'm trying to spread it out. Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting to match into places like Hopkins or UPenn as an IMG, but I figured having those hospitals on my CV will help....or am I wrong??

Yeh, my surgical observerships at Hopkins were fun in the clinics, but quite boring in the OR. But hey, I got 2 LORs out of it and thats the end goal as an IMG right? 🙂

I'm in 2nd year now, and I really want to do my residency in the States. I grew up in Canada, did my undergradue pre-med degree at Queen's University (Kingston, Canada), but since I'm a dual citizen (British-Canadian), I decided to carry out my M.D. in the UK.

Last summer at Hopkins was great, but I realized that I need to start playing the cards in my favour (ie. make contacts at places where I will realistically have a chance of matching into as IMG). Therefore, I am shying away from UPenn, but on the other hand, wouldn't it be good to have UPenn and Hopkins on the CV when I apply for residency at a community hospital somewhere in America?? Or is my gameplan flawed?

Appreciate all the help on this forum!

 

[smq123]

Yeah, it doesn't have to be those 4. Those are just the 4 centres I know in Philly, but I'm open to anything.

Oh, I'm planning on writing my Step 1 this summer, and I have a friend who is a medical student at Jefferson. So I will be able to live with him this summer, hence the reason why I want to be in Philadelphia. He lives downtown, so anything close to his place (he lives 1 block from Jefferson) will be good. And I know Temple-Drexel-UPenn are fairly close by subway (since I won't have a car this summer).

- Pennsylvania Hospital is very close by to Jefferson. It is ~ 5-6 blocks away (8th and Spruce-ish), and easily walkable from Jeff. Pennsylvania Hospital ("Pennsy") is an excellent community hospital that is owned by the University of Pennsylvania. (Few people our age call it "UPenn," people at that institution tend to just call it "Penn.") Pennsy has its own IM residency program, but no longer has its own gen surg residency program.

- Methodist Hospital is another community hospital that is easily accessible by subway. It is owned by Jefferson, and staffed by Jefferson residents/attendings.

- Einstein is a larger medical center in North Philadelphia, and also easily accessible by subway (it's on the opposite end of the same subway line that would take you to Methodist). They have their own residency program and take a lot of IMGs.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Aside from the excellent points made by smq, I have a couple of thoughts/comments...

1) observerships are essentially worthless, IMHO. What you want are clinical electives where faculty can observe you in a clinical role.

2) while you got some LORs from your observerships (as a first year medical student), IMHO, these letters will be useless when it comes to residency for two reasons:

a) they are not based on anyone with knowledge about your clinical skills, which is what I want when evaluating a resident
b) by the time you apply for residency those letters will be *years* old (are you in a 6 or 4 year program).

3) if you are taking Step 1 this summer, you might consider just hanging out with your friend and studying for the examination rather than doing another observership. The most successful IMGs (which, BWT, you are not...you are an FMG since you are not a US citizen), have extremely high USMLE scores (ie, it is not uncommon to see someone with 99s).

 

[Blitz2006]

Aside from the excellent points made by smq, I have a couple of thoughts/comments...

1) observerships are essentially worthless, IMHO. What you want are clinical electives where faculty can observe you in a clinical role.

2) while you got some LORs from your observerships (as a first year medical student), IMHO, these letters will be useless when it comes to residency for two reasons:

a) they are not based on anyone with knowledge about your clinical skills, which is what I want when evaluating a resident
b) by the time you apply for residency those letters will be *years* old (are you in a 6 or 4 year program).

3) if you are taking Step 1 this summer, you might consider just hanging out with your friend and studying for the examination rather than doing another observership. The most successful IMGs (which, BWT, you are not...you are an FMG since you are not a US citizen), have extremely high USMLE scores (ie, it is not uncommon to see someone with 99s).

First all,

SMQ, thanks for your detailed responses! I'll definitly look at those hospitals then, send some e-mails out this week.

Winged Scapula, yeah, I have 3 months of summer, May 27-Sept.1. So I'm planning on studying Step 1s for most of the summer (like 9-5 everyday). My plan is just to show my face 1-2x a week for maybe 3-4 hrs a time just to get some experience and make a couple connections. Hopefully make connections for my elective (which I get 8 wks in 4th year).

I agree though, Step 1 is crucial. I looked at NRMP however, and apparently when I apply for residency, they also look at a "personal statement" and your CV.



So yes, while my LORs are prolly useless since these are not proper electives, I thought that having observerships at Hopkins and UPenn on my CV/Personal Statement would enhance my profile? Im looking at the little things as well, that maybe I can mention that I did some observerships at these institutions at an interview? Again, I'm just speculating. You are obviously much more knowledgeable than me on residency matching, I'm just basing my gameplan on how I was able to get into medical school. And stuff like my Duke of Edinburgh's award and volunteer work in Costa Rica that I did in highschool actually was useful in my applications and interviews, despite it being over 5-6 years old. But again, the residency matching is obviously a different game.

And u like said, Im FMG. So I'm busting my ass trying to do anything that will allow me to go to the States for residency.

 

[Winged Scapula]

If you have the time available and enjoy them, then I see no harm in doing the observerships. But frankly, as far as "enhancing" your CV, I cannot see that happening.

Where would you list them on ERAS? They don't go under clinical rotations, they aren't volunteer work, research or paid positions. Is there even a place to list them on ERAS (its been years for me, so others would have to answer that question)? You don't submit a formal CV for residency match; ERAS has an application into which you enter information which is a quasi-CV. I'm not sure where you read that your CV is important in residency matching...for an FMG it will be STEP 1, STEP 1, STEP1...USCE, visa status, STEP 2 and LORs.

Even if you could, I think you overestimate how much time people spend closely reading CVs and the importance of an observership at a top tier (or any tier) hospital. For FMGs to match into a competitive residency, almost ALL of the importance will be placed on your Step 1 score, visa status, USCE and LORs. Those that get good positions generally have published research - this would be a better use of your summers (ie, doing research and trying to get it published) than observerships - and good US connections.

I would not be impressed with a candidate mentioning he did observerships at Hopkins during an interview, especially if I weren't at Hopkins. Its name-dropping and obnoxious if you bring it up; if I ask you, then fair enough. Then again, as an FMG, you may not be aware of the tendency of *some* Hopkins grads to constantly work that into the conversation...having had many attendings who were, it becomes very annoying after awhile. Even if it was brought up in conversation in a non-annoying way, why would it impress me during the interview that you did some observerships a few years ago? I'm not following why you think this would help you match.

That said, I don't mean to discourage you from your plan, but I think you are placing too much weight on it when the time could be spent doing something better. As a junior medical student you ARE eligible to work on research projects which could potentially enhance your CV much more so than an observership.

 

[Blitz2006]

If you have the time available and enjoy them, then I see no harm in doing the observerships. But frankly, as far as "enhancing" your CV, I cannot see that happening.

Where would you list them on ERAS? They don't go under clinical rotations, they aren't volunteer work, research or paid positions. Is there even a place to list them on ERAS (its been years for me, so others would have to answer that question)? You don't submit a formal CV for residency match; ERAS has an application into which you enter information which is a quasi-CV. I'm not sure where you read that your CV is important in residency matching...for an FMG it will be STEP 1, STEP 1, STEP1...USCE, visa status, STEP 2 and LORs.

Even if you could, I think you overestimate how much time people spend closely reading CVs and the importance of an observership at a top tier (or any tier) hospital. For FMGs to match into a competitive residency, almost ALL of the importance will be placed on your Step 1 score, visa status, USCE and LORs. Those that get good positions generally have published research - this would be a better use of your summers (ie, doing research and trying to get it published) than observerships - and good US connections.

I would not be impressed with a candidate mentioning he did observerships at Hopkins during an interview, especially if I weren't at Hopkins. Its name-dropping and obnoxious if you bring it up; if I ask you, then fair enough. Then again, as an FMG, you may not be aware of the tendency of *some* Hopkins grads to constantly work that into the conversation...having had many attendings who were, it becomes very annoying after awhile. Even if it was brought up in conversation in a non-annoying way, why would it impress me during the interview that you did some observerships a few years ago? I'm not following why you think this would help you match.

That said, I don't mean to discourage you from your plan, but I think you are placing too much weight on it when the time could be spent doing something better. As a junior medical student you ARE eligible to work on research projects which could potentially enhance your CV much more so than an observership.

Hey winged scapula,

Appreciate the input.

I got a lot of my knowledge from here:

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/1554.html

It appears to be an informative/helpful website?

Below is a quote on this website, talking about CV.

Your curriculum vitae (CV) is an important piece of your application package. Make sure that it highlights any unique qualifications you have to make yourself stand out from the thousands of others in the applicant pool. Include any academic experiences, such as researching or teaching, regardless of where you trained. While you should put any experiences on your CV that will be of benefit to you, always be prepared to provide further information. If granted an interview, you will most likely be asked to discuss the experiences you have included on your CV. Residency programs are putting increasing importance on community service. If you have done volunteer work, make sure it is a prominent part of your CV. Test scores too are very important. Many programs look at test scores first to initially weed out applicants. There is no substitute for extensive test preparation.

So I dunno man, I'm out here in the UK, so my only source for all this is the internet (basically this forum). My class is 386 people, 4 Canadians and 1 American. So I'm pretty much the only one in my class that has the H1/J1 visa issues, USMLE issues, etc.

And therefore I appreciate your input.

Cheers mate

 

[smq123]

So I'm planning on studying Step 1s for most of the summer (like 9-5 everyday). My plan is just to show my face 1-2x a week for maybe 3-4 hrs a time just to get some experience and make a couple connections. Hopefully make connections for my elective (which I get 8 wks in 4th year).

Hmmmm.....

"Showing your face" twice a week, for 3-4 hours at a time, is going to get you minimal experience, and will not help you make connections at all.

The attendings, fellows, and senior residents that you will be following around have, easily, 12-20 students per year, in addition to numerous interns. The chances that they will remember someone who briefly followed them around a couple of times a week is fairly low.

I agree though, Step 1 is crucial. I looked at NRMP however, and apparently when I apply for residency, they also look at a "personal statement" and your CV.

Step 1 is more than just "crucial." When residency directors look at your application, the first thing they will look at is which school you graduated from (i.e. is it a US allopathic, a US osteopathic, a Caribbean/foreign school).

Then, they will look at your Step 1 score. If your Step 1 score is merely good-average, they won't even bother looking at your personal statement or your CV. Your Step 1 score REALLY matters.

Is there even a place to list them on ERAS (its been years for me, so others would have to answer that question)?

Nope, there is not.

Your curriculum vitae (CV) is an important piece of your application package.

It's a little misleading, because they make it sound like your CV is a separate part of your application that you submit yourself.

It's not. What happens is that there is an online application that you fill out. The computer then takes all that info and plugs it into a fake-CV form. You don't actually submit your OWN CV/resume; the computer automatically generates one for you.

 

[Blitz2006]

Hmmmm, fair enough.

I do know that Step 1 is very important.

So basically I have 2 scenarios to choose from:

1. Just do Step 1 24/7 for 2-3 months.

2. Do Step 1 for 20/7 for 2-3 months with a bit of observerships on the side.

I figured a few hours of clinical work a week won't harm.

I'm still just in 2nd year medical school (2nd of a 5 year M.D. Program), so I figured any U.S clinical experience is better than nothing. My other IMG classmates are completely clueless on this stuff and are instead spending their summers backpacking around Europe.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I figured a few hours of clinical work a week won't harm.

I'm still just in 2nd year medical school (2nd of a 5 year M.D. Program), so I figured any U.S clinical experience is better than nothing. My other IMG classmates are completely clueless on this stuff and are instead spending their summers backpacking around Europe.

But the problem is that observerships are NOT US clinical experience. IMHO, do it if you enjoy it but don't expect that following someone around for a few hours a week is going to add *anything* to your application.

Believe me, I know how hard it is to be abroad without resources locally to help you wade through this morass. SDN really helped me back in the day and I hope it will do the same for you.

And finally, read anything from the AMA with a very jaundiced eye. They are not necessarily the best source of information.

 

[medicinesux]

You should consider Camden right across the river...I hear it is quite lovely over there.

 

[smq123]

I figured a few hours of clinical work a week won't harm.

I'm still just in 2nd year medical school (2nd of a 5 year M.D. Program), so I figured any U.S clinical experience is better than nothing.

Well, if you're granted a residency interview in the Philadelphia are, it wouldn't hurt to be able to say, "I have seen, first hand, how intense the residency training is in the US. I also spent a summer in Philadelphia, shadowing physicians at Pennsy/Jefferson/etc., and I know that I would love to live in this area," etc., etc.

But will it help your ERAS application? Probably not.

If you're interested in shadowing surgeons while you are here for the summer, please let me know. The surgery interest group at Jefferson have a LOT of really cool programs for 1st and 2nd year med students - you can join one of the general surgeons for rounds, watch a few colorectal cases, or even go on an organ harvest with transplant surgeons. I can get you in touch with the interest group organizers if you'd like.

You could probably also shadow in the cardiac critical care unit, which covers both CT surgery and cardiology patients. The attendings there have a reputation for being great teachers.

You should consider Camden right across the river...I hear it is quite lovely over there.

That's the nicest description of Camden that I've ever heard in all my 21+ years of living in the Philadelphia area....

 

[Blitz2006]

You should consider Camden right across the river...I hear it is quite lovely over there.

Yes, I hear its one of the top neighbourhoods in the Philly area 😛

Actually, UPenn is in quite a rough area. When I was there last summer, didn't realize it was smack inside West Philly...

smq, I would love to do shadow a general surgeon at Jefferson. Gen surg. is actually my #1 choice, since its the 'easiest' among the surgeon specialities to match into for IMG.

I'll PM you.

Like I said, just once-twice a week, since my main focus is Step 1 this summer. But yeh, like you say, if I can say in an interview down the road that I spent a summer in Philly and am familiar with the clinical setting, I figure that will give me a hand up on an IMG applicant who has never been been to America.

Cheers!

 

[JonnyG]

Yes, I hear its one of the top neighbourhoods in the Philly area 😛

Actually, UPenn is in quite a rough area. When I was there last summer, didn't realize it was smack inside West Philly...

smq, I would love to do shadow a general surgeon at Jefferson. Gen surg. is actually my #1 choice, since its the 'easiest' among the surgeon specialities to match into for IMG.

I'll PM you.

Like I said, just once-twice a week, since my main focus is Step 1 this summer. But yeh, like you say, if I can say in an interview down the road that I spent a summer in Philly and am familiar with the clinical setting, I figure that will give me a hand up on an IMG applicant who has never been been to America.

Cheers!

Penn is probably one of the safest areas of the city. The school has its own police force on top of the philadelphia police department. West philly is by no means the worst part of the city. Southwest and north philly...........u better run