Easy & mediocre or prestigious & difficult undergrad?

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hamilton32

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My brother is going to be applying to college next year and is currently looking into which ones he wants to go to. He wants to do something in the health field (MD, Pharm, DDS, etc.) and I told him to go to an easy undergrad and get better grades. I go to a top 20 undergrad that's notorious for grade deflation and every science class I've been in has been killer and from looking at the work my other friends do at less well known, easier schools, it's nothing in comparison. Like, for our biochem class, we get through everything they get through but we do it in a quarter instead of a semester and in more detail. With the sheer amount of work and competition, I think it'd be better for him to go to an easier school. Do you think that's the right advice to give him or should he just choose the best (in terms of academic and fit) school he gets into?
 
Let me tell you a story.

I went to a small liberal arts college out in the suburbs. I had a 3.2 undergraduate GPA with a 2.9 sGPA. I went to that same small liberal arts college for my MA in a non-science field and had a 3.7 GPA for that.

At my interview, I was asked the following: "We have students attending who had 4.0 GPA's in Ivy League schools who are struggling here. What makes you think that you, with your 3.2 GPA from a small college no one has heard of, will be able to succeed when they are having trouble?"

I replied with, "Oh, I know I will succeed. My study habits have improved a lot since I was a 19."

And guess what? I'm in my second year now, putting in minimal effort, and sliding by with mostly B's.


Take from that what you will.
 
hamilton32 said:
My brother is going to be applying to college next year and is currently looking into which ones he wants to go to. He wants to do something in the health field (MD, Pharm, DDS, etc.) and I told him to go to an easy undergrad and get better grades. I go to a top 20 undergrad that's notorious for grade deflation and every science class I've been in has been killer and from looking at the work my other friends do at less well known, easier schools, it's nothing in comparison. Like, for our biochem class, we get through everything they get through but we do it in a quarter instead of a semester and in more detail. With the sheer amount of work and competition, I think it'd be better for him to go to an easier school. Do you think that's the right advice to give him or should he just choose the best (in terms of academic and fit) school he gets into?
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I think you gave him sound advice (that he should choose an easier undergrad for the sake of getting into a professional school.)
 
My little sister had the same dilemma while choosing which undergrad to go to. I went to an insane undergrad, where the averages for exams were in the 40-50s and graduated w a 3.9 gpa. People were dropping out like flies and we've had people cry during our exams since their dreams have been crushed. I slept 2 hours a day during midterm and exam weeks, and never felt ready for any exams. I'm a D3 right now, and it has been a cakewalk. I sleep like a baby during midterm and exam week, and for many of my exams I study only a few hours for. Even with the decrease in effort, I'm near the top or my class.

I knew that my sister would not be able to go to the vigorous pace that my undergrad was going, so I told her to go to a less prestigious school. It has been awesome for her, since she's getting the grades she wants, and the exams and labs have a lower knowledge requirement. The subjects the 2 schools are teaching were the same, but profs like to make really hard exams to differentiate the geniuses from the other kids. They gotta lower the bar if there are less geniuses in the class.

There are some research to support this anecdote. They compared the percentage of people who achieve degrees vs their entering SAT score relative to their cohort. Malcolm gladwell did a good talk about it.



In general, it doesn't matter how smart you are, you're more likely to succeed if you feel smart compared to your classmates. My sister didn't have an ego, so she was okay with picking the "easier" school. But I would have picked the more prestigious one every time, and that could have ruined my life hard.

In conclusion, be a big fish in a small pond and pick the easier school, if your ego let's you.
 
justsaying2 said:
How is this not the more popular answer??? Don't promote an anti-intellectual attitude. We go to college to learn and experience and you should go to one that challenges you! What crazy advice people here are giving.
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Except the way the game is rigged, all that matters is GPA.

Go to the the easier school and get a 3.8+.
 
Your call, OP. Well technically, your sibling's.

Grades matter the most. So go where you "think" you can do well.

The prestigious schools do have advantages though. Strong alumni network, money, research opportunities, well-known professors, numerous resources available to students. You never know what doors will open if you attend a top private or public school.
 
justsaying2 said:
How is this not the more popular answer??? Don't promote an anti-intellectual attitude. We go to college to learn and experience and you should go to one that challenges you! What crazy advice people here are giving.
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You still learn the same stuff. It's just how you are evaluated that is different. No one is stopping you from learning.
 
ICUrunning said:
well-known professors,
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I went to a relatively unknown university and my virology professor is a world renowned scholar who studied under the man who discovered the AIDS virus. She is on numerous national panels on biosafety and has an awesome research lab at the school where she is doing cutting edge research.
 
You're paying for the education, so you might as well get the best you can out of it and learn as much as possible. It'll help better prepare you for post-grad anyways. And if you can't handle an undergraduate curriculum reasonably enough, medicine/dental might not be the best choice anyways.
 
cacajuate said:
Except the way the game is rigged, all that matters is GPA.

Go to the the easier school and get a 3.8+.
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Why is this the advice that keeps circulating on this forum???

If you go to a school with name recognition, you don't need a 3.8! Why is this drilled into everyone's brains?
 
you can always find some middle ground...there are lots of good schools out there that are strong academically in sciences but don't necessarily have the "name" attached to them. Also you want your brother to go to a good program where professors will push him and give him a strong foundation in science. What is this nonsense I hear about "go to the easier school and get a 3.8+"...like seriously...be a man. Study your ass off, work harder than others, and good things will happen.
 
I think when someone gets a doctorate, he/she wouldn't be questioned about where he/she went to undergrad (unless it's the same school). And what about debt load? I'd rather go to a mediocre school and get high GPA, get more merit-based scholarships than going to a prestigious (and possibly very expensive) school where the competition for a scholarship is even fiercer. Adding a large undergrad debt to the increasing professional degree debt can make you money's servant for a long, long time. Me personally, I'd like money to be my servant ASAP so the route with the least debt will get me there (prestigious or not)
 
I went to a relatively prestigious school, the University of Florida, and applied with a 3.31 oGPA. I applied to 15 schools and was accepted to 8. Moral of the story: GPA isn't everything, go to the more prestigious school and enjoy learning more. Like OP said, they learn more material than the other school so that would be the pick for me.
 
I went to a very easy undergrad school and earned a very high GPA. I was offered a lot of scholarships at dental schools, but to be honest, I wish I had challenged myself. Dental school has been a really, really hard struggle for me. My classmates who challenged themselves in undergrad do not have to struggle nearly as hard as I am. So I guess the question is: do you want to struggle now or later on?
 
ToothbrushBuddy said:
I went to a very easy undergrad school and earned a very high GPA. I was offered a lot of scholarships at dental schools, but to be honest, I wish I had challenged myself. Dental school has been a really, really hard struggle for me. My classmates who challenged themselves in undergrad do not have to struggle nearly as hard as I am. So I guess the question is: do you want to struggle now or later on?
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You will be a dentist, that's the end goal. Don't be short sighted people, no one will care where you went to school especially for undergrad. Go to the school that gives you the best chance to become a dentist period.
 
I went to college to get me closer to becoming a dentist, not learn about the Krebs cycle (which I have already forgot much of the detail). Going to an easier school might make you have to study for the DAT longer but you will enjoy college so much more.
 
I firmly believe that for most of the classes in undergrad, you're paying for the grade and not for the education itself. But in dental school, my thoughts are reversed. You're paying for the education and not necessarily as much for the grades, since we come out of dental school as hopefully competent dentists.

Just so people don't jump my stuff, I'm talking about the bulk of classes in undergrad. Classes like physics 2 (E&M), calculus, intro Bio and Gen Chem I and II (notorious for being weed-out classes), and others that aren't like "upper-level" courses. Personally, I was for sure paying for mostly the grade in those classes, as I doubt I'll need to know how charges are related to electric field. You're taking those classes to do well on the DAT, which will ultimately get you into dental school. Classes like Anatomy and Biochemistry, however, will show up in dental school and should interest you at least on some level, so personally, I was paying for the education in those classes as they highly interested me and reinforced my desire to succeed in dentistry. So your education is ultimately determined by you. You can be proactive and learn things/be curious on your own time by reading books and putting forth a lot of effort, no matter which undergraduate university you attend. The professors are an incredible tool, I agree, but you're the ultimate determining factor of your success.

The dental school education is what matters. Period.
 
Go to the school who have more opportunity and have an involved Dental Club for example UCSD have the best pre-dental society in the U.S
University of pacific have an accelerate dental program 6 years program
same for case in ohio, boston, NYU, they have special program for undergraduate interesting in dentistry
 
kerfufle said:
You will be a dentist, that's the end goal. Don't be short sighted people, no one will care where you went to school especially for undergrad. Go to the school that gives you the best chance to become a dentist period.
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SM555 said:
I went to college to get me closer to becoming a dentist, not learn about the Krebs cycle (which I have already forgot much of the detail). Going to an easier school might make you have to study for the DAT longer but you will enjoy college so much more.
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It kills me to see people who are going to be doctors talking about what a pain it is to learn
 
I really don't understand you people.

"Education is what you make of it. Go to the easier school and then just be proactive and read books and stuff on your own!" Why not just go to the more prestigious school then? If I'm going to spend the same amount of time being "proactive" as I would be studying for the better school's exams, why not benefit by going to the better school in the first place?

Unless, of course, you guys are advocating for them to go to a school where they will learn less (which, according to OP, is what the "lesser" school offers), in which case I don't know what to think. What if they decide to change professions halfway through college? Did all of you start college 100% dead set on being a dentist? I didn't. And guess what, if they decide to do something else with their lives, there are a ton of careers where the undergrad you attended matters.

I can't believe you all think it's such a burden to go to a good college. Only factor I'd consider over quality of education is price, but even that is a game of touch and go.
 
BrazilianRider said:
I really don't understand you people.

"Education is what you make of it. Go to the easier school and then just be proactive and read books and stuff on your own!" Why not just go to the more prestigious school then? If I'm going to spend the same amount of time being "proactive" as I would be studying for the better school's exams, why not benefit by going to the better school in the first place?

Unless, of course, you guys are advocating for them to go to a school where they will learn less (which, according to OP, is what the "lesser" school offers), in which case I don't know what to think. What if they decide to change professions halfway through college? Did all of you start college 100% dead set on being a dentist? I didn't. And guess what, if they decide to do something else with their lives, there are a ton of careers where the undergrad you attended matters.

I can't believe you all think it's such a burden to go to a good college. Only factor I'd consider over quality of education is price, but even that is a game of touch and go.
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I was simply stating that in my eyes, dental education is much more important than undergrad education because the undergrad education is something I, personally, took upon myself to learn, and I DO go to a prestigious university. I wouldn't trade my education here for the world, but that's just because I was proactive and no matter where I went, I would've had the exact same experience because I put forth the effort. For me, undergrad was my way of being proactive and teaching myself a lot of concepts, but in dental school, I understand that the wealth of information that we'll be supplied and knowledge we'll extract from professors and through our own experiences (like extracting teeth, etc.) will be directly utilized in our dental professions. For some of those classes/experiences, we wouldn't just be able to sit down and learn by reading a book. I by no means was suggesting that OP should encourage his sister to go to an "easier" college. You're right, why not just go to the prestigious school if you're going to be proactive on you own anyway? I agree with that statement 100%. Again, my point wasn't to denounce or diminish the importance of high quality education, but instead to highlight that the education in dental school is what I consider to be more beneficial for our futures.
 
DentalGirl5 said:
I was simply stating that in my eyes, dental education is much more important than undergrad education because the undergrad education is something I, personally, took upon myself to learn, and I DO go to a prestigious university. I wouldn't trade my education here for the world, but that's just because I was proactive and no matter where I went, I would've had the exact same experience because I put forth the effort. I by no means was suggesting that OP should encourage his sister to go to an "easier" college. You're right, why not just go to the prestigious school if you're going to be proactive on you own anyway? I agree with that statement 100%. Again, my point wasn't to denounce or diminish the importance of high quality education, but instead to highlight that the education in dental school is what I consider to be more beneficial for our futures.
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Sorry, it may have sounded like I was directing this at you but that was only because you worded everything in your post so well (i.e. you mentioned being proactive, etc.). I was mostly directing it to the people who blatantly told OP's sister to pick the easier school.
 
I go to the University of Arizona and got 6/11 interviews ranging from UCSF to UPenn and UoPacific. Doesnt matter. Just get good grades, be active outside the classroom, and be able to have a normal conversation.
 
BrazilianRider said:
I really don't understand you people.

"Education is what you make of it. Go to the easier school and then just be proactive and read books and stuff on your own!" Why not just go to the more prestigious school then? If I'm going to spend the same amount of time being "proactive" as I would be studying for the better school's exams, why not benefit by going to the better school in the first place?

Unless, of course, you guys are advocating for them to go to a school where they will learn less (which, according to OP, is what the "lesser" school offers), in which case I don't know what to think. What if they decide to change professions halfway through college? Did all of you start college 100% dead set on being a dentist? I didn't. And guess what, if they decide to do something else with their lives, there are a ton of careers where the undergrad you attended matters.

I can't believe you all think it's such a burden to go to a good college. Only factor I'd consider over quality of education is price, but even that is a game of touch and go.
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Beautiful.
 
justsaying2 said:
It kills me to see people who are going to be doctors talking about what a pain it is to learn
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justsaying2 said:
It kills me to see people who are going to be doctors talking about what a pain it is to learn
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Please link where I said learning is a pain. I look forward to learning in dental school, but the reality is that 99% of the real learning will take place after we leave dental school. If you don't believe me go check out dental town and ask them how they feel about my point of view. Reality is that where you did your undergrad and dental school just don't matter, unless you want to specialize of course. Many of you will be top 10% in your dental class and be on top of the world when you graduate until your realize that dentistry is a BUSINESS. Your patients won't give a rip where you went to school, they'll only be interested in whether or not you accept their insurance and if you can do good work. Many of your dental school classmates with mediocre grades that have backgrounds in sales in business management will be far more financially successful than you. So while my views may be a bit cynical they are the reality of the profession we chose. Sorry if doesn't give you the warm and fuzzies but hey that's life. Go to the school that will give you the best chance get into a cheap state dental school. For those of you horrified by my comments go check out dental town and get a healthy dose of cynicism yourself. There you will read the opinions of real dentists who have been through this, not idealistic pre-dents.
 
kerfufle said:
Please link where I said learning is a pain. I look forward to learning in dental school, but the reality is that 99% of the real learning will take place after we leave dental school. If you don't believe me go check out dental town and ask them how they feel about my point of view. Reality is that where you did your undergrad and dental school just don't matter, unless you want to specialize of course. Many of you will be top 10% in your dental class and be on top of the world when you graduate until your realize that dentistry is a BUSINESS. Your patients won't give a rip where you went to school, they'll only be interested in whether or not you accept their insurance and if you can do good work. Many of your dental school classmates with mediocre grades that have backgrounds in sales in business management will be far more financially successful than you. So while my views may be a bit cynical they are the reality of the profession we chose. Sorry if doesn't give you the warm and fuzzies but hey that's life. Go to the school that will give you the best chance get into a cheap state dental school. For those of you horrified by my comments go check out dental town and get a healthy dose of cynicism yourself. There you will read the opinions of real dentists who have been through this, not idealistic pre-dents.
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One could argue that choosing to go to an easier, less prestigious undergrad just because they don't want to do more work shows that a person is okay with mediocrity.
 
BrazilianRider said:
One could argue that choosing to go to an easier, less prestigious undergrad just because it's easier and they don't want to do more work shows that a person is okay with mediocrity.
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That's a completely valid argument, but I still believe you can be motivated and smart about your opportunities at the same time. Going to an ivy and learning cell bio from a world famous professor is great but it will do nothing for me 15 years down the road. Getting myself a scholarship due to a high undergraduate GPA could have huge consequences in my future as a business owner. So yes, I stand by what I said but your point is well taken.
 
kerfufle said:
That's a completely valid argument, but I still believe you can be motivated and smart about your opportunities at the same time. Going to an ivy and learning cell bio from a world famous professor is great but it will do nothing for me 15 years down the road. Getting myself a scholarship due to a high undergraduate GPA could have huge consequences in my future as a business owner. So yes, I stand by what I said but your point is well taken.
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Well that's why you go to Harvard undergrad and get the prestige + education + grade inflation.
 
BrazilianRider said:
Well that's why you go to Harvard undergrad and get the prestige + education + grade inflation.
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+ ridiculous debt. It may also help to understand you'll never meet a person who cares less about prestige than me. I'm all about that action boss.
 
BrazilianRider said:
One could argue that choosing to go to an easier, less prestigious undergrad just because they don't want to do more work shows that a person is okay with mediocrity.
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False assumption. False conclusion.

Going to an easier school doesn't mean that you will try less, it just means your effort will be more greatly rewarded via GPA.
 
kerfufle said:
Going to an ivy and learning cell bio from a world famous professor is great but it will do nothing for me 15 years down the road.
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God damn people...learning is such a valuable experience. This is such an awful attitude and makes me glad I go to a school where education is valued even when it doesn't directly relate to a career.
 
AlbinoPolarBear said:
False assumption. False conclusion.

Going to an easier school doesn't mean that you will try less, it just means your effort will be more greatly rewarded via GPA.
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It's why I said you could make an argument for it instead of stating it was an absolute fact. And I mean yes, but if you're already going to try to learn the material on your own you might as well gain the prestige that comes with the second school. The OP said the more prestigious school's courses cover a lot more than the other schools, so why not go to that one?
 
We should redo this thread with a poll.

I'm a hypocrite though. I would pick the easier school for everyone else, but would personally go to the more prestigious school.
 
Let's be real though for a sec:
If, hypothetically (and I mean super hypothetically because everyone's E.C.'s and LOR's, etc. are different) a dental school receives IDENTICAL applications from two students (grades, DAT, everything) yet observes that one went to Harvard (or some other prestigious school, even UF, etc.) and another went to like OU (Ohio University), they'd most likely accept the one who went to the more prestigious college because it shows that they can handle a lot more and still achieve the same grades as the one who chose the easier school. I'm not saying that if the person from the easier school went to the harder school, he wouldn't achieve the same GPA by any means, but I'm more so saying that given those circumstances, they do care about which undergrad you go to.

Of course none of this is to say that undergraduate education in particular is as influential and beneficial to you in the long run as the dental education. I still stand by what I said originally.
 
SM555 said:
The difference between you and I is that I like to learn about information relevant to my goals in life.
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The difference between you and I is that I haven't limited myself, ever.
 
SM555 said:
What kills me is such close minded people like yourself. Where did I say it was a pain to learn? The difference between you and I is that I like to learn about information relevant to my goals in life. While you are learning every structure of every enzyme in beta-oxidation, I'm reading how to run an efficient dental office. When you're memorizing the charge of an electron to the twelfth decimal place, I'm reading books about the financial and accounting aspects of management. Why you ask? Because I don't want to be sitting next to you in Aspen Dental after my 48th patient of the day with my thumb up my butt listening to you brag about how you remember Avagadros number...
Sorry for the rant OP.
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¿Porque no los dos?
 
Can we just all agree that the information we value and the process by which we go about obtaining knowledge is unique to each individual?
 
studentdent00 said:
I'm looking at you Ms. 3.6 GPA.
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I have a 3.6 and I also haven't limited myself. I actually push myself a lot and care about my future. A 3.6 isn't a mediocre GPA, even by dental standards.

And again, the argument comes back FULL CIRCLE to which undergrad you go to.

A 3.6 GPA for the sciences at my school is high.
 
BrazilianRider said:
¿Porque no los dos?
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deleted the post, don't want to completely hijack the thread. Point was to show the pros of an easier school and how you can spend your time in other areas that can benefit you down the road. Definitely not bashing a hard school though, it came off life I was.
You can do both but there's no arguing that the easier school will allow you to do more of the non-degree things that you are interested in, for me it was learning the business side of dentistry.
 
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