EC Hours Significant Enough to Warrant an Update Letter or Secondary?

[Prometheus123]

What's a ballpark minimum number of hours of doing a new EC not mentioned on AMCAS that that might warrant an update letter or a mention in secondaries?

Is there a standardized way of doing update letters, or does it vary from school to school? I saw one applicant say a school told him to just send an email.

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[candbgirl]

First check to see if the school(s) even take updates. Many don't accept them at all. Some accept them only after an interview. For those that do accept them, don't bombard them with updates. Wait and accumulate some really meaty items for updates. It's probably early to be updating at this point. Have you even been verified? Start working on your secondaries. You might be able to include your "update" information on your secondaries. And that would be great.


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[Prometheus123]

First check to see if the school(s) even take updates. Many don't accept them at all. Some accept them only after an interview. For those that do accept them, don't bombard them with updates. Wait and accumulate some really meaty items for updates. It's probably early to be updating at this point. Have you even been verified? Start working on your secondaries. You might be able to include your "update" information on your secondaries. And that would be great.


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Ok, thanks. So it sounds like there's a lot of variation from school to school.

I have not been verified yet, and I'm still working on pre-writing my secondaries. I'm just trying to do some medium-term planning. If I start ASAP, I'm hoping I may be able to accumulate something meaty within a timeframe where it may be useful this cycle. That's why I'm wondering about an hour guestimate, because accordingly I can do the math and figure out how many hours per week I would need to do to accomplish that in time.

 

[bannie22]

Always update if you want to.

 

[Med Ed]

What's a ballpark minimum number of hours of doing a new EC not mentioned on AMCAS that that might warrant an update letter or a mention in secondaries?

Is there a standardized way of doing update letters, or does it vary from school to school? I saw one applicant say a school told him to just send an email.

No one in admissions cares about EC updates, so do whatever you like.

 

[Prometheus123]

No one in admissions cares about EC updates, so do whatever you like.

You're saying it won't make any difference anyway, so there's nothing to be gained by doing some insane Herculean effort to rapidly accumulate a bunch of hours for an update letter, right?

P.S. I realize a Herculean effort would not be as significant as a long-term, sustained commitment, but it seems like the next best thing.

 

[Master_of_Savage]

You're saying it won't make any difference anyway, so there's nothing to be gained by doing some insane Herculean effort to rapidly accumulate a bunch of hours for an update letter, right?

P.S. I realize a Herculean effort would not be as significant as a long-term, sustained commitment, but it seems like the next best thing.

So I can only speak about my experience sending an EC update letter, but for me it helped at 1 school. I sent an EC update in January after not hearing anything for 6 months and within 3 hours I got an interview invite. Having said that, I have no idea why there was such a quick turnaround or if the contents of the update had anything to do with me getting an interview invite. But 3 weeks after the interview I was accepted and I'm matriculating there in a week. I sent the same update letter to other schools and most ignored me. At another school it prompted a rejection the next day.

 

[Prometheus123]

So I can only speak about my experience sending an EC update letter, but for me it helped at 1 school. I sent an EC update in January after not hearing anything for 6 months and within 3 hours I got an interview invite. Having said that, I have no idea why there was such a quick turnaround or if the contents of the update had anything to do with me getting an interview invite. But 3 weeks after the interview I was accepted and I'm matriculating there in a week. I sent the same update letter to other schools and most ignored me. At another school it prompted a rejection the next day.

Interesting, thanks for sharing this. So in your experience, it did nothing at most schools, but at two schools it prompted someone to review your whole application, including the update probably, and make a final decision about your candidacy. In one of those two cases, it led to an acceptance. Sounds like a long-shot that could well turn out to be worth it, especially in a 50/50-chances case, which is exactly what mine is based on GPAs and MCAT.

If you don't mind me asking, what was the update about? And how many hours did you list for it?

 

[Master_of_Savage]

Interesting, thanks for sharing this. So in your experience, it did nothing at most schools, but at two schools it prompted someone to review your whole application, including the update probably, and make a final decision about your candidacy. In one of those two cases, it led to an acceptance. Sounds like a long-shot that could well turn out to be worth it, especially in a 50/50-chances case, which is exactly what mine is based on GPAs and MCAT.

If you don't mind me asking, what was the update about? And how many hours did you list for it?

Yeah I really don't know why the update led to an interview so it's up for speculation. I don't remember putting a total number of hours in the letter, but rather an hours per week. Off the top of my head it was probably in the 300-400 total hours range (like 30-40 hours a week)

 

[Prometheus123]

Yeah I really don't know why the update led to an interview so it's up for speculation. I don't remember putting a total number of hours in the letter, but rather an hours per week. Off the top of my head it was probably in the 300-400 total hours range (like 30-40 hours a week)

Interesting, so that sounds like a Herculean effort, since whatever the activity was you did it full-time. Did you put how long you had done that weekly amount for? How many months or weeks did you do that?

 

[Med Ed]

it helped at 1 school.

I have no idea why there was such a quick turnaround or if the contents of the update had anything to do with me getting an interview invite.

I want you to read, re-read, and re-read again the above sentences. Correlation does not equal causation.

 

[Med Ed]

You're saying it won't make any difference anyway, so there's nothing to be gained by doing some insane Herculean effort to rapidly accumulate a bunch of hours for an update letter, right?

P.S. I realize a Herculean effort would not be as significant as a long-term, sustained commitment, but it seems like the next best thing.

If you aren't good enough to get in the moment you finalize your AMCAS, then no last minute after-the-fact EC is going on help.

 

[Master_of_Savage]

I want you to read, re-read, and re-read again the above sentences. Correlation does not equal causation.

You are totally right and I should have emphasized that more. Saying it "helped" at one school is misleading and its very possible that my update had nothing to do with me getting an interview.

 

[Med Ed]

You are totally right and I should have emphasized that more. Saying it "helped" at one school is misleading and its very possible that my update had nothing to do with me getting an interview.

Yeah, sorry, this whole issue just drives me a little nuts for multiple reasons.

 

[Prometheus123]

I want you to read, re-read, and re-read again the above sentences. Correlation does not equal causation.

If you aren't good enough to get in the moment you finalize your AMCAS, then no last minute after-the-fact EC is going on help.

You're absolutely right. Correlation does not imply causation, and my hypothesis about what happened is speculation. I know my persistence in light of this seems foolish. It's just that I have a roughly 50/50 shot (54%) of getting in this year. So I'm looking for any way to tip the scales ever so slightly in my favor. As maddening as it may be to you and even more so to me, this is the insane faith that has gotten me this far.

I accept that there is about a 99% chance that any update letter I may send won't make a difference in the final judgment. However, my PI just offered to let me write and publish an editorial in the peer-reviewed journal he's the editor of with us listed as coauthors. Whether it will make a difference or not, I should send an update letter once I get a second-lead authorship on PubMed, right? I know there's a big difference between an editorial and a paper with original research, but still.

 

[Prometheus123]

A "Herculean effort" might make a difference, but the amount of hours/commitment that would make a difference are not likely to be accumulated if you haven't even submitted your secondaries yet. Include it in secondaries if you can.

Otherwise, wait until around Christmas time, then send an update to schools you haven't heard from only if you have significant additions to your application - by significant, I mean your benchmark for updating should be whether something will make a difference in getting you admitted or not. A research paper accepted for publication. Previously had 20 hours of volunteer experience and you did another 200 since you submitted your app. Previously iffy grades and you got A's in challenging science courses this semester.

Every school differs in how to submit updates (or if they even accept them), but many schools have a limit as to how many updates can be sent. It's better to send one update with multiple activities than 3-4 little updates throughout the semester.

Thank you for this advice. That makes a lot of sense about waiting to do one big update later on. So it's funny that you mention getting a paper published as an example, because my PI just offered to let me write an editorial about circadian biology and health, be coauthors with me, and publish it in a journal he's the editor of. I know an editorial isn't as good as a proper paper, but it's still worth it to put, right? Maybe I could pair it with 60 hours of ESL tutoring?

 

[IWillMakeIt1]

I don't think you will lose anything by sending out ECs update letter later in the cycle. I am starting 2 volunteering activities this month (Even though I have tons of ECs), and will be updating schools by October-December.

 

[candbgirl]

I'm asking again, have you finished your secondaries? If you send updates now some people will wonder why this info wasn't included in the primary/secondary? Obviously the editorial isn't written and you don't have a publication date so don't send this information until it is published. Stuff happens and you just never know . . . Have you completed the 60 hours of tutoring? I know it's hard but you need to calm down or the next few months are going to be tough. Lots of the application process is out of your control. The only things that were in your control were the activities you listed , your stats, your essays and who you pick for LOR. If you have a well crafted application and a thoughtfully developed list you've done all you can.


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[lpp06]

Also.

It's July. Most schools haven't started even extending interviews yet. It's not the time to go into panic mode. Worry about sending the update after you're published. Who knows, by then you may have a few interviews to your name.

 

[Med Ed]

I know an editorial isn't as good as a proper paper, but it's still worth it to put, right? Maybe I could pair it with 60 hours of ESL tutoring?

2 x 0 = _?

 

[Goro]

Thank you for this advice. That makes a lot of sense about waiting to do one big update later on. So it's funny that you mention getting a paper published as an example, because my PI just offered to let me write an editorial about circadian biology and health, be coauthors with me, and publish it in a journal he's the editor of. I know an editorial isn't as good as a proper paper, but it's still worth it to put, right? Maybe I could pair it with 60 hours of ESL tutoring?

Do you really think that the Admissions dean is going to run out of his/her office to their secretary and scream "We have to interview this kid!!! He published an editorial and has 60 hrs of tutoring!"

???

 

[Prometheus123]

I'm asking again, have you finished your secondaries? If you send updates now some people will wonder why this info wasn't included in the primary/secondary? Obviously the editorial isn't written and you don't have a publication date so don't send this information until it is published. Stuff happens and you just never know . . . Have you completed the 60 hours of tutoring? I know it's hard but you need to calm down or the next few months are going to be tough. Lots of the application process is out of your control. The only things that were in your control were the activities you listed , your stats, your essays and who you pick for LOR. If you have a well crafted application and a thoughtfully developed list you've done all you can.


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No, I haven't. This is for medium-term planning. If I want to accumulate 60 hours of an EC by a certain date, I need to know that now so that I can start ASAP. I realize this will probably make no difference for this cycle, but worst case scenario it will position me well for next year.

 

[blackroses]

No, I haven't. This is for medium-term planning. If I want to accumulate 60 hours of an EC by a certain date, I need to know that now so that I can start ASAP. I realize this will probably make no difference for this cycle, but worst case scenario it will position me well for next year.

I guess I'm confused why you wouldn't just start now to rack up as many hours as possible. You know that this is the weak point of your application. What possible benefit do you gain from waiting as long as possible to start fixing it?

 

[Prometheus123]

Do you really think that the Admissions dean is going to run out of his/her office to their secretary and scream "We have to interview this kid!!! He published an editorial and has 60 hrs of tutoring!"

???

Haha, of course not. But I'm thinking the editorial might help shore up my credibility in terms of research, since I have little research experience. If nothing else, I'm thinking these things will be a solid foundation to improve my candidacy for next year's cycle.

 

[Goro]

Haha, of course not. But I'm thinking the editorial might help shore up my credibility in terms of research, since I have little research experience. If nothing else, I'm thinking these things will be a solid foundation to improve my candidacy for next year's cycle.

An editorial isn't going to help you and it won't get into press by the time you need it to anyway.

 

[Prometheus123]

I guess I'm confused why you wouldn't just start now to rack up as many hours as possible. You know that this is the weak point of your application. What possible benefit do you gain from waiting as long as possible to start fixing it?

I am talking about starting ASAP. I'm planning to start as soon as my secondaries are done. I'm also just thinking about targets, e.g. 60 hours of X EC by December, etc.

 

[blackroses]

I am talking about starting ASAP. I'm planning to start as soon as my secondaries are done. I'm also just thinking about targets, e.g. 60 hours of X EC by December, etc.

Again, I don't see what possible benefit you gain from waiting to start volunteering.

Stop worrying about a specific number of hours. No one can give you some magical number of hours (there isn't one). Start volunteering regularly. Keep volunteering regularly.

 

[blackroses]

.

 

[Prometheus123]

An editorial isn't going to help you and it won't get into press by the time you need it to anyway.

Yeah, that makes sense. Out of curiosity, do you think a real paper would be significantly better?

 

[blackroses]

This stands as a great example of why you wait to apply until you have a strong application that you're happy with - otherwise you spend half your application cycle stressing about ways to try to game the system.

 

[Prometheus123]

Again, I don't see what possible benefit you gain from waiting to start volunteering.

Stop worrying about a specific number of hours. No one can give you some magical number of hours (there isn't one). Start volunteering regularly. Keep volunteering regularly.

True, it's just that I'm already volunteering about 12 hours a week to ongoing commitments, my in-laws are living with us until mid-August, and I haven't finished my secondaries yet, so I'm leary of taking on more commitments before I'm ready.

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

Yeah, that makes sense. Out of curiosity, do you think a real paper would be significantly better?

Are you aware of the process that goes into publishing a peer-reviewed paper? Even if you magically had one written and ready to submit right now, it can still take weeks to months to be peer reviewed and slated for publication, let alone actually published.

 

[Goro]

Yeah, that makes sense. Out of curiosity, do you think a real paper would be significantly better?

Yes, but it's not going to save a mediocre app. BTW, most Adcoms, especially at the public schools and many private ones (outside of the research powerhouses) put place that much emphasis on research? Look up the wise @gonnif's posts in this subject.

But, you ask, why do so many pre-meds do research?

For one, it's a good idea to know something about the scientific process, but I suspect the main reason is "everybody else is doing it".

 

[Prometheus123]

This stands as a great example of why you wait to apply until you have a strong application that you're happy with - otherwise you spend half your application cycle stressing about ways to try to game the system.

Point taken, although I'm not stressing, just thinking about what's in my power and planning for the future.

 

[blackroses]

True, it's just that I'm already volunteering about 12 hours a week to ongoing commitments, my in-laws are living with us until mid-August, and I haven't finished my secondaries yet, so I'm leary of taking on more commitments before I'm ready.

If you're volunteering 12 hours a week, then continue doing that.

 

[Prometheus123]

Are you aware of the process that goes into publishing a peer-reviewed paper? Even if you magically had one written and ready to submit right now, it can still take weeks to months to be peer reviewed and slated for publication, let alone actually published.

Yes, I am aware of this, I'm just asking.

Yes, but it's not going to save a mediocre app. BTW, most Adcoms, especially at the public schools and many private ones (outside of the research powerhouses) put place that much emphasis on research? Look up the wise @gonnif's posts in this subject.

But, you ask, why do so many pre-meds do research?

For one, it's a good idea to know something about the scientific process, but I suspect the main reason is "everybody else is doing it".

I've heard this before, but wasn't sure if it was true. Glad to hear it confirmed but someone whose expertise I trust. In that case, I'll do the editorial anyway just because it's on my bucket list.

 

[Prometheus123]

If you're volunteering 12 hours a week, then continue doing that.

For sure, I will. Based on the popularity of Angela Duckworth's grit research right now, I suspect that many ADCOMs will place greater weight on a few longer-term, sustained commitments than lots of shorter-term "hey let's add another thing to the ol' EC list" kinds of activities.

 

[Dr. Stalker]

Unfortunately, only certain ECs/activities are worthy of an update, here are some off the top of my head:
1. Paper PUBLISHED - not submitted
2. Winning a nobel prize
3. Updated transcript/MCAT score

Not worthy
1. starting a job
2. started volunteering
3. changed __ hours into 100 hrs of ___ activity
4. started shadowing ___ physician

While you're welcome to update any medical school with any of those items listed above (even in the not worthy column) keep in mind ad-coms will e-mail you back saying "THANKS its been added to your file!!" but it will, likely, hold 0% impact on you winning an interview or an acceptance!

 

[Goro]

For sure, I will. Based on the popularity of Angela Duckworth's grit research right now, I suspect that many ADCOMs will place greater weight on a few longer-term, sustained commitments than lots of shorter-term "hey let's add another thing to the ol' EC list" kinds of activities.

I'm glad you brought that up. Many of the SDNers who got into Top Schools (as in Harvard/Stanford class) have shared with me their stats and ECs and the commonality is that they had hundreds if not 1000s of clinical and/or non-clinical volunteering. Now, it wasn't mere quantity of the ECs, it was the quality. So do one thing and do it well. And love what you do and do what you love.

 

[Dr. Stalker]

I'm glad you brought that up. Many of the SDNers who got into Top Schools (as in Harvard/Stanford class) have shared with me their stats and ECs and the commonality is that they had hundreds if not 1000s of clinical and/or non-clinical volunteering. Now, it wasn't mere quantity of the ECs, it was the quality. So do one thing and do it well. And love what you do and do what you love.

Best advice. Enough of this bs of pre-meds volunteering/doing an activity for the bare minimum 100 hours cause they hate it; get out there and do something for your community you love, something you won't log your hours incessantly for!

 

[Goro]

Best advice. Enough of this bs of pre-meds volunteering/doing an activity for the bare minimum 100 hours cause they hate it; get out there and do something for your community you love, something you won't log your hours incessantly for!

When we see box checkers at interview, we can spot them right away. No enthusiasm, for starters. That's all I'll share.

 

[Prometheus123]

I'm glad you brought that up. Many of the SDNers who got into Top Schools (as in Harvard/Stanford class) have shared with me their stats and ECs and the commonality is that they had hundreds if not 1000s of clinical and/or non-clinical volunteering. Now, it wasn't mere quantity of the ECs, it was the quality. So do one thing and do it well. And love what you do and do what you love.

When we see box checkers at interview, we can spot them right away. No enthusiasm, for starters. That's all I'll share.

I'm very happy to hear this! I've long suspected that what may get me in this cycle, despite the underdog nature of my application, is this, the fact that I've demonstrated grit and perseverance, and my passion is obvious to anyone who talks to me. My hours volunteering at my hospital aren't that impressive yet, but I just completed 213 hours yesterday, and I won't stop.

The best part is that I'm the only trainer for my unit who's still volunteering, so every single shift now I'm training someone, which I love doing. So I'm passing down all my little tricks to the entire new roster of volunteers. That's right: all our volunteers are going to be asking patients if they can turn their lights on during the day, handing out sleep masks in the evening, recommending that people order the fish and not the cheesecake, putting two extra pre-opened and tied bags in the laundry hampers to make it easier for staff to take out of the laundry more frequently to reduce back strain, etc. I realize these things are so insignificant that they essentially don't matter at all, but I take satisfaction in doing and spreading them anyway because they might make a small difference once in a while.

 

[Prometheus123]

@gyngyn @LizzyM @Medic741

I'm glad you brought that up. Many of the SDNers who got into Top Schools (as in Harvard/Stanford class) have shared with me their stats and ECs and the commonality is that they had hundreds if not 1000s of clinical and/or non-clinical volunteering. Now, it wasn't mere quantity of the ECs, it was the quality. So do one thing and do it well. And love what you do and do what you love.

Unfortunately, only certain ECs/activities are worthy of an update, here are some off the top of my head:
1. Paper PUBLISHED - not submitted
2. Winning a nobel prize
3. Updated transcript/MCAT score

Not worthy
1. starting a job
2. started volunteering
3. changed __ hours into 100 hrs of ___ activity
4. started shadowing ___ physician

While you're welcome to update any medical school with any of those items listed above (even in the not worthy column) keep in mind ad-coms will e-mail you back saying "THANKS its been added to your file!!" but it will, likely, hold 0% impact on you winning an interview or an acceptance!

First check to see if the school(s) even take updates. Many don't accept them at all. Some accept them only after an interview. For those that do accept them, don't bombard them with updates. Wait and accumulate some really meaty items for updates. It's probably early to be updating at this point. Have you even been verified? Start working on your secondaries. You might be able to include your "update" information on your secondaries. And that would be great.


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A "Herculean effort" might make a difference, but the amount of hours/commitment that would make a difference are not likely to be accumulated if you haven't even submitted your secondaries yet. Include it in secondaries if you can.

Otherwise, wait until around Christmas time, then send an update to schools you haven't heard from only if you have significant additions to your application - by significant, I mean your benchmark for updating should be whether something will make a difference in getting you admitted or not. A research paper accepted for publication. Previously had 20 hours of volunteer experience and you did another 200 since you submitted your app. Previously iffy grades and you got A's in challenging science courses this semester.

Every school differs in how to submit updates (or if they even accept them), but many schools have a limit as to how many updates can be sent. It's better to send one update with multiple activities than 3-4 little updates throughout the semester.

Also.

It's July. Most schools haven't started even extending interviews yet. It's not the time to go into panic mode. Worry about sending the update after you're published. Who knows, by then you may have a few interviews to your name.

I guess I'm confused why you wouldn't just start now to rack up as many hours as possible. You know that this is the weak point of your application. What possible benefit do you gain from waiting as long as possible to start fixing it?

2 x 0 = _?

0. And with Goro's additional skepticism about the differentiating-power of research, now it's 2 x 0 x 0 = 0. I accept the futility of thinking this could change things for this cycle. But I'll start doing them ASAP anyway because a) I want to tutor people in ESL (languages and teaching are fun for me) and write this editorial (major bucket-list item), and b) because it will set me up for success for next cycle if necessary.

By the way, regarding my karmic debt to people like you and others on this forum, I've been passing down the amalgamation of your advice down to my starry-eyed premed volunteer trainees. (I'm now the sole trainer on my units at the hospital, all the old trainers except me seem to have quit and we've got a ton of new people, so all my shifts are training shifts now.) My most recent trainee has only finished gen chem and knew nothing about the application process, but I could see her passion and her dedication. She was driven. My gut told me she would make herself into a great doctor one day. So I told her the basics of the cycle, and I told her everything you've all told me that I wish I'd known when I started preparing.

Interestingly, when we talked about personal statements, her main reasons for pursuing medicine were compelling but problematic in the same ways that mine are. I passed down your advice about that too and steered her towards safer waters.