ECT/TMS training and visiting fellowships?

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brainmedicine

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I am interested in pursuing a training/course for ECT and TMS. I appreciate learn ing your experience about which one might offer good training. I know some of my friends had attended the Duke course but I am not sure about the others. I appreciate your thoughts.

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ISEN-ECT.org
Join for membership, get the journal, and enroll in the list serv emails. Do their 1 day course at minimum at their annual meeting which overlaps with the APA conference.

I believe there are three more hands on training courses. Duke. I think one of the NYC programs has one, and possibly another one else where in the country.

Be aware, there is a bit of a political schism in ECT circles regarding lead placement of RUL in UBPW vs BF/BT in BPW, and some of these programs may preach one lead placement as gospel truth. And they may preach one device over the other as gospel truth, too.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
ISEN-ECT.org
Join for membership, get the journal, and enroll in the list serv emails. Do their 1 day course at minimum at their annual meeting which overlaps with the APA conference.

I believe there are three more hands on training courses. Duke. I think one of the NYC programs has one, and possibly another one else where in the country.

Be aware, there is a bit of a political schism in ECT circles regarding lead placement of RUL in UBPW vs BF/BT in BPW, and some of these programs may preach one lead placement as gospel truth. And they may preach one device over the other as gospel truth, too.

I enjoy your posts. If you have time would you would consider sharing the nuances such as professional satisfaction, ability to provide in conjunction with other endeavours and financial aspects of ECT that attract you to this modality?
 
It really depends on what you're looking for and your familiarity with the procedures already. I can't speak to TMS but can speak to ECT.

If you are already familiar with the procedure and feel comfortable managing patients over the course of ECT, then the ISEN course is likely sufficient. I did the ISEN course this past spring. For context, I spent about 4 months doing only ECT at my training program prior to the course. It's perfect for those that already have experience with ECT and simply need CME for credentialing purposes. In my opinion, however, it's woefully insufficient for someone who knows very little about ECT and has no actual experience with the procedure. The ISEN course is strictly didactic and is fairly limited at that. I would not feel comfortable doing ECT if that was the only formal training that I received.

If your experience with ECT is limited, I would suggest doing one of the longer-term courses that allows you to observe cases and get hands-on experience. They are more costly and occur over several days to a week, but they will give you much more in-depth training. Several academic programs have longer ECT training courses that include procedural experiences (e.g., Columbia, Emory, Michigan, Pitt... the list goes on). A couple of our faculty did the Emory course and thought it was helpful but, again, completely unnecessary if you already have experience with ECT.

Get the APA book on ECT and read it over. Though a bit old, it's a great read that dives into the specifics of ECT in a way that's fairly digestable with plenty of citations to the literature that you can look into if you want.
 
Yale has a year-long interventional psychiatry fellowship that focuses on ECT, ketamine infusion, rTMS, etc. I rotated on the service as part of my geriatrics traing and loved it. Lots of interesting pathologies and tons of opportunity to do research/publish.
 
In addition to the APA text mentioned above are there any other ECT texts that are recommended? I have a relatively light schedule the next few months before my ECT rotation and wouldn’t mind reading up on it prior to starting. I checked with the attending for that rotation and she didn’t really have any recommendations.
 
I enjoy your posts. If you have time would you would consider sharing the nuances such as professional satisfaction, ability to provide in conjunction with other endeavours and financial aspects of ECT that attract you to this modality?
Original attraction was overall under utilization of a treatment modality that simply gets results. Nothing is better than ECT for depression. I collected data with my previous practice of 64% remission, 18% response, and 18% limited / no benefits. Before I started that service I found my self frustrated not being able to offer the service to patients, who would have clearly benefited, or people routinely be re-admitted on inpatient unit. I found it professionally rewarding to see the drastic transition from severe depression to functional for most patients.

I criticize C/L strongly, despite training at a residency that is definitely a quality place to train for that fellowship, and some people criticize ECT as boring and simply pushing a button. I get what people people are saying with limited interest in ECT, just as I'm sure people might get why I say C/L is boring. For me though I find ECT to be quite stimulating with nuances of thinking about seizure threshold, medication impact on that, prognosis factors in the treatment, patient selection, lead placements, challenging cases of refractory Bipolar mania/psychosis or catatonia with +/- malignancy/NMS. Having one person who spent more days in hospitals then outside of them, go almost 2 years without a hospitalization. The ISEN-ECT journal articles and nuances of publications, I get excited about that journal. Simply put it just resonates with me, I like the articles, and seeing patients get better, and doing the procedure itself. Time flies. Also thinking about the next step after ECT, and options of continuation phase, or maintenance phase. I've had one person who had 100+ treatments over life for decades, and if ECT were messed with, that patient would relapse into depression.

However, because of CMS, it is not on an approved list be done Ambulatory Surgery Centers, and means free standing psych hospitals or regular hospitals are the options. When you set foot in a hospital, you sign up for politics, and bureaucracy. I loathe the politics, I loathe the bureaucracy. I'm in the process of trying to set up ECT/TMS/Ketamine, but its not an easy road, and I can't add much more at this point other than I'm still plinking away at getting the ECT to be a go. Financially, I was insulated from it at previous job and had no idea the renumeration, but noted my patient panel to be heavy on the medicare/medicaid, naturally. Now that I have contracts in hand, I can say ECT can pay well, but you are definitely limited by the pre amble of time/staffing resources to get the insurance auth in the first place. The heavier medicaid/medicare payer mix will pull down the better numbers of private insurance. Assume you will only get 2 procedures per hour done (if you could do 3 it could be more lucrative than med checks for sure, but +/- med checks with therapy add on codes). You also will have no shows for ECT, and also need to block treatment procedure time from normal schedule so whether the volume is there or not. Could possibly do worse than basic med checks for that total blocked time. If the volume is robust and consistently 6+ per treatment day, could pencil out as worthwhile. Other issues include patients that might have post ictal agitation and require time at bedside, which can delay exodus to go to clinic. Other issues are rotation of anesthesia and pacu nurses - less is best, and consistency is preferable - so much to talk on that subject but some hospitals that's really out of your control. Also, your outpatient practice and hospital have travel time, which means time not seeing patients, lowers your income and needs to be factored in. So financially, its possible for ECT to be quite lucrative in the right set up, but realistically in real worled, assume its the same as basic med check, and prepare yourself to be worse overall.

If you have a 100% ECT like one poster on here, then yeah, that's financially lucrative, but those set ups exist only in large groups or academia (or Kaiser?) and not a smaller community practice. So those employers won't be giving the extra money but instead putting it in the coffers of the department.
 
Original attraction was overall under utilization of a treatment modality that simply gets results. Nothing is better than ECT for depression. I collected data with my previous practice of 64% remission, 18% response, and 18% limited / no benefits. Before I started that service I found my self frustrated not being able to offer the service to patients, who would have clearly benefited, or people routinely be re-admitted on inpatient unit. I found it professionally rewarding to see the drastic transition from severe depression to functional for most patients.

I criticize C/L strongly, despite training at a residency that is definitely a quality place to train for that fellowship, and some people criticize ECT as boring and simply pushing a button. I get what people people are saying with limited interest in ECT, just as I'm sure people might get why I say C/L is boring. For me though I find ECT to be quite stimulating with nuances of thinking about seizure threshold, medication impact on that, prognosis factors in the treatment, patient selection, lead placements, challenging cases of refractory Bipolar mania/psychosis or catatonia with +/- malignancy/NMS. Having one person who spent more days in hospitals then outside of them, go almost 2 years without a hospitalization. The ISEN-ECT journal articles and nuances of publications, I get excited about that journal. Simply put it just resonates with me, I like the articles, and seeing patients get better, and doing the procedure itself. Time flies. Also thinking about the next step after ECT, and options of continuation phase, or maintenance phase. I've had one person who had 100+ treatments over life for decades, and if ECT were messed with, that patient would relapse into depression.

However, because of CMS, it is not on an approved list be done Ambulatory Surgery Centers, and means free standing psych hospitals or regular hospitals are the options. When you set foot in a hospital, you sign up for politics, and bureaucracy. I loathe the politics, I loathe the bureaucracy. I'm in the process of trying to set up ECT/TMS/Ketamine, but its not an easy road, and I can't add much more at this point other than I'm still plinking away at getting the ECT to be a go. Financially, I was insulated from it at previous job and had no idea the renumeration, but noted my patient panel to be heavy on the medicare/medicaid, naturally. Now that I have contracts in hand, I can say ECT can pay well, but you are definitely limited by the pre amble of time/staffing resources to get the insurance auth in the first place. The heavier medicaid/medicare payer mix will pull down the better numbers of private insurance. Assume you will only get 2 procedures per hour done (if you could do 3 it could be more lucrative than med checks for sure, but +/- med checks with therapy add on codes). You also will have no shows for ECT, and also need to block treatment procedure time from normal schedule so whether the volume is there or not. Could possibly do worse than basic med checks for that total blocked time. If the volume is robust and consistently 6+ per treatment day, could pencil out as worthwhile. Other issues include patients that might have post ictal agitation and require time at bedside, which can delay exodus to go to clinic. Other issues are rotation of anesthesia and pacu nurses - less is best, and consistency is preferable - so much to talk on that subject but some hospitals that's really out of your control. Also, your outpatient practice and hospital have travel time, which means time not seeing patients, lowers your income and needs to be factored in. So financially, its possible for ECT to be quite lucrative in the right set up, but realistically in real worled, assume its the same as basic med check, and prepare yourself to be worse overall.

If you have a 100% ECT like one poster on here, then yeah, that's financially lucrative, but those set ups exist only in large groups or academia (or Kaiser?) and not a smaller community practice. So those employers won't be giving the extra money but instead putting it in the coffers of the department.

Really appreciate the comprehensive reply. Overall it sounds like the driving force is professional satisfaction by providing a much needed service as opposed to a lucrative set up in most instances. I had assumed it was the cost of the equipment driving the lack of available sites but likely the mediocre physician reimbursement is a significant factor as well. If I am understanding what you have taught me it is unfortunate as this is a high risk, vulnerable population who often benefit greatly from this procedure which itself involves increased risks and greater time implications for the physician as compared to the average med check.
 
The machine cost is nominal. 20-30K depending on what you get and how many spares for leads, cables, etc. A rounding error for hospital budgets.
1) The limiting factor is psychiatrists who have interest.
2) Willing anesthesiology folks who will be giving up the 'big cases' for something that means a lot more med prep, documentation by shear volume of people, etc
3) hospital bureaucracy


Lesser so, the referral patterns of clinicians who still believe ECT is the last line on the train stop. Should be much earlier in the treatment algorithm like #3.
 
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