Effect of pre-requisite courses on med school performance

[DesitnationMD]

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for those of you panicking over not having all your pre-reqs done for med school (not MCAT pre-reqs, which are much fewer) this study showed that students without the traditional premedical preparation performed at a level equivalent to their premedical classmates.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20671464

I will be starting med school in Fall 2016 and I took no upper level bio, biochem, courses and no psychology or sociology courses @ all. It was tough prepping for the MCAT, but supremely doable

 

[aldol16]

You mean except for the lower Step One scores and being more likely to take a leave of absence.

This also doesn't factor in how much harder those people have to work relative to their peers who have, say, taken courses in biochemistry and immunology. I don't advocate for one route over another, but it's always useful to keep a study's main limitations in mind.

 

[DesitnationMD]

You mean except for the lower Step One scores and being more likely to take a leave of absence.

This also doesn't factor in how much harder those people have to work relative to their peers who have, say, taken courses in biochemistry and immunology. I don't advocate for one route over another, but it's always useful to keep a study's main limitations in mind.

reading the paper, it looks like the only step exam where non-pre req students scored lower was "Step 1 scores (221 +/- 20 versus 227 +/- 19, P = .0039)" not a major difference when you look at percentiles but it does explain their preference for less competitive specialties.


from what I 've heard from people at my med school (fall 2016!) everyone works hard. they said pre-reqs might make first year a little easier, but beyond that we all end up in the same boat, working really hard because NO college education compares to MS 1 and 2.

no matter, my point was to encourage those who feel they have little to no shot if they are not bio majors or people who have taken all the pre-med coursework they can. that's all.

 

[aldol16]

reading the paper, it looks like the only step exam where non-pre req students scored lower was "Step 1 scores (221 +/- 20 versus 227 +/- 19, P = .0039)" not a major difference when you look at percentiles but it does explain their preference for less competitive specialties.


from what I 've heard from people at my med school (fall 2016!) everyone works hard. they said pre-reqs might make first year a little easier, but beyond that we all end up in the same boat, working really hard because NO college education compares to MS 1 and 2.

no matter, my point was to encourage those who feel they have little to no shot if they are not bio majors or people who have taken all the pre-med coursework they can. that's all.

See, I've heard the opposite. So people I know at a top 20 med have said that MS1 at least was less difficult than some years at our undergrad (given, it's HYP). In terms of course material, the material they learned in MS1 was easy because it focused on breadth as opposed to depth, whereas in undergrad, they had taken courses on similar topics that devoted a whole semester to studying several phenomena. So that's my input on it.

I definitely appreciate the link - I'm just trying to make the point that the study has some limitations that we should keep in mind during interpretation.

 

[DesitnationMD]

See, I've heard the opposite. So people I know at a top 20 med have said that MS1 at least was less difficult than some years at our undergrad (given, it's HYP). In terms of course material, the material they learned in MS1 was easy because it focused on breadth as opposed to depth, whereas in undergrad, they had taken courses on similar topics that devoted a whole semester to studying several phenomena. So that's my input on it.

I definitely appreciate the link - I'm just trying to make the point that the study has some limitations that we should keep in mind during interpretation.

Thanks for the kind reply! Lots of conflicting info. I guess the problem is the large variation in college difficulty, majors that pre-meds choose, etc... I can honestly say though, non of the med students I met in all my interviewing and in this past years ever told me MS 1 would be easier than college. let's hope your friends are at least a bit right and not just some cray genius, for my sake!

Have you taken the mcat yet, or decided on a school?

 

[aldol16]

Thanks for the kind reply! Lots of conflicting info. I guess the problem is the large variation in college difficulty, majors that pre-meds choose, etc... I can honestly say though, non of the med students I met in all my interviewing and in this past years ever told me MS 1 would be easier than college. let's hope your friends are at least a bit right and not just some cray genius, for my sake!

Well, it really does depend on where you went to college. I honestly doubt that a science student at, say, MIT would consider even med science classes to be more difficult than an upper-division MIT course. There may be a lot more information and the requirement for fast memorization which may make it more difficult in that sense, but I doubt that the material would be that difficult compared to the rigor with which science is taught at top universities.

 

[DesitnationMD]

Well, it really does depend on where you went to college. I honestly doubt that a science student at, say, MIT would consider even med science classes to be more difficult than an upper-division MIT course. There may be a lot more information and the requirement for fast memorization which may make it more difficult in that sense, but I doubt that the material would be that difficult compared to the rigor with which science is taught at top universities.

I get that. There is nothing conceptually difficult about medical school compared to many college majors (engineering, physics, math). I do nto expect pathology ot be conceptually more difficult than my quantum mechanics class. What I hear from almost all is that the sheer volume and speed of what you experience in ms 1/2 is what makes it so difficult. whats that cliche, "it's like drinking from a firehose"

I have friends in med school who went to yale, stanford, state schools, tech schools, and they all say it is tough, much tougher than college was. It could also be all the stress and anxiety of being around so many other people who are just as smart/educated/driven as you are, and still expecting to do so relatively well.

Have you applied yet @aldol16 , or taken the new mcat yet? Does your undergrad have a med school? Mine doesnt so i have no direct line other than friends. what is your major? You speak with so much authority and confidence I would expect you to be a classic pre-med.

 

[aldol16]

I get that. There is nothing conceptually difficult about medical school compared to many college majors (engineering, physics, math). I do nto expect pathology ot be conceptually more difficult than my quantum mechanics class. What I hear from almost all is that the sheer volume and speed of what you experience in ms 1/2 is what makes it so difficult. whats that cliche, "it's like drinking from a firehose"

That's a great quote that pretty much summarizes the whole process. Drinking water is easy. But it's the firehose part that makes it difficult.

I have friends in med school who went to yale, stanford, state schools, tech schools, and they all say it is tough, much tougher than college was. It could also be all the stress and anxiety of being around so many other people who are just as smart/educated/driven as you are, and still expecting to do so relatively well.

Not to sound like a complete dick, but I know that Yale's curriculum is not particularly difficult if you can get it. Stanford I know less about. MIT I know is difficult and so is CalTech. Because you realize that you will likely be surrounded by just as many smart people at Yale and Stanford - not all intelligent people go to med school.

Have you applied yet @aldol16 , or taken the new mcat yet? Does your undergrad have a med school? Mine doesnt so i have no direct line other than friends. what is your major? You speak with so much authority and confidence I would expect you to be a classic pre-med.

Nope. I'm a graduate student. You can probably guess my discipline from my posts. You could probably also guess my year. Most of the medical school information I know is also from friends who have applied and those who are MS2/MS3.

 

[DesitnationMD]

.....Not to sound like a complete dick, but I know that Yale's curriculum is not particularly difficult if you can get it. Stanford I know less about. MIT I know is difficult and so is CalTech. Because you realize that you will likely be surrounded by just as many smart people at Yale and Stanford - not all intelligent people go to med school.

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I dont think i ever came close to implying this. Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant. im saying that part fo the difficultly in medical school is likely that you are surrounded by a bunch fo students who are all just as intelligent, dirven and, most likely, hard working as you are in order to be there. undergrad you can have wide ranges of kids with differing intelects (and many of the ivys, mit, caltech as well) you have legacy kids, kids who can do well in college but not handle med school smart but just dont get the mcat, smart btu want to make more $, smart but just don't like medicine, etc... once all those people have been weeded out, what your left with in emd school is much stiffer competition.

i dont look at post history or try to glean details from posts, thats why i asked about your background. though from the interaction we have had I can def now see the post-grad influence and attitude. i'm a physics major, and while the stuff i study is likely much tougher than most if not all bio or med school stuff, i have met soem crazy billiant premeds in my application travels and in the premed society at my school (top 20 state school) and here on sdn.

are you applying to med school, or do you plan to go the phd route (a lot of my friends who lvoe science are gonig that route). much quicker, and takes a diff sort of mind imo than medical science. i lvoe the problem sovling and analysis of medicine, not much for basic science research or phd/academia route. the mcat was legit one of the toughest exams i ever took. I did very very well, but had to work a lot harder than i did through most of undergrad.

 

[aldol16]

you have legacy kids, kids who can do well in college but not handle med school smart but just dont get the mcat, smart btu want to make more $, smart but just don't like medicine, etc... once all those people have been weeded out, what your left with in emd school is much stiffer competition.

I think you might have a too idyllic view of who gets into medical school. But I do understand what you're trying to say.

are you applying to med school, or do you plan to go the phd route (a lot of my friends who lvoe science are gonig that route). much quicker, and takes a diff sort of mind imo than medical science. i lvoe the problem sovling and analysis of medicine, not much for basic science research or phd/academia route. the mcat was legit one of the toughest exams i ever took. I did very very well, but had to work a lot harder than i did through most of undergrad.

At this point, I'm not yet certain. I'm at a very good PhD program for my field and I have an option to either continue on this track or apply to medical school. I have to make that decision quite soon, actually.

 

[Astra]

I think you might have a too idyllic view of who gets into medical school. But I do understand what you're trying to say.



At this point, I'm not yet certain. I'm at a very good PhD program for my field and I have an option to either continue on this track or apply to medical school. I have to make that decision quite soon, actually.

Either one you choose, I know you will excell at it! You are extremely well informed and knowledgeable.

You'll be a great physician or researcher!

 

[DesitnationMD]

@aldol16 @Astra118

i agree, sharp. what field is your phd program? you seem to be on sdn all the time so i hope you are getting something out of this. is your work a lot of setup, then sitting around and waiting (cell cultures, animal experiments, models)? i dated a couple few biomolec grad students and they were always calling or texting @ like 10pm on a weekday because they had started an experiment and had 3+ hours to kill. you are a nice resource for the community, keep it up as long as you can.

 

[aldol16]

Either one you choose, I know you will excell at it! You are extremely well informed and knowledgeable.

You'll be a great physician or researcher!

Thank you!

i agree, sharp. what field is your phd program? you seem to be on sdn all the time so i hope you are getting something out of this. is your work a lot of setup, then sitting around and waiting (cell cultures, animal experiments, models)? i dated a couple few biomolec grad students and they were always calling or texting @ like 10pm on a weekday because they had started an experiment and had 3+ hours to kill. you are a nice resource for the community, keep it up as long as you can.

I'm on pretty frequently now but it'll get less and less so once things pick up. I'm not in a biological discipline so it's not so much setting up and waiting but more thinking about how to work around problems and do measurements of phenomena that are inherently difficult to measure. Thank you for your kind words. You would be surprised at how many rude people there are on here. (Think: asking for advice and then completing discounting it because it's not what they want to hear.)

 

[Astra]

Thank you!



I'm on pretty frequently now but it'll get less and less so once things pick up. I'm not in a biological discipline so it's not so much setting up and waiting but more thinking about how to work around problems and do measurements of phenomena that are inherently difficult to measure. Thank you for your kind words. You would be surprised at how many rude people there are on here. (Think: asking for advice and then completing discounting it because it's not what they want to hear.)

That is a shame people are rude to you. Frankly whenever I post a question on here, I am posting it for you to see

If people cannot handle being told they are wrong, I don't understand how they can be good physicians or researchers!

I for one, sincerely thank you for your presence.

 

[aldol16]

That is a shame people are rude to you. Frankly whenever I post a question on here, I am posting it for you to see

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions! I'm happy to answer, though by posting you will also get a variety of answers that each explain distinct aspects of the concept!

 

[EverStriving]

I'm wary of possible selection bias in this paper. How do we know the selection process for HuMed students wasn't somehow adjusted for their lack of pre-medical coursework? I.e. taking only students with very high GPA and great LORs.

I don't have access to the full paper, unfortunately.

 

[DesitnationMD]

@EverStriving Questioning data, considering limitations? Now you are thinking like an MCAT student! check it out below

If people cannot handle being told they are wrong, I don't understand how they can be good physicians or researchers!

@Astra118 as @aldol16 told me earlier in this thread, you may have an idyllic view of who/what kind of people can and do become docs.

@aldol16 yeah speaknig as a pre-med, there are quite a few idiots among us, even thoguh we have yet to earn our profl title or even admission to med school in many cases. don let them get u donw, though.

 

[EverStriving]

Questioning data, considering limitations? Now you are thinking like an MCAT student! check it out below

I could do without the condescension. Thanks for the limitations section though.

There is no mention of the selection process for HuMed students in this screenshot. Perhaps it would be in the methods section?

 

[DesitnationMD]

I could do without the condescension. Thanks for the limitations section though.

There is no mention of the selection process for HuMed students in this screenshot. Perhaps it would be in the methods section?

@EverStriving
That chip on your shoulder, take it off. I though you Cali folks were s'posed to be laid back. Too much time on the intertubes can make you cynical. That's why I left this place for a while after my MCAT.

I was paying you...get this... an actual compliment. When I started analyzing and questioning anything I read study-wise, that's when I knew I was gonna be ready for the new MCAT.