Egotistical doctors--born or made?

[NYgirl2]

I had the chance to work as a "patient-care worker" (CNA)this past weekend at a hospital near my med. school. (I got a quick CNA license a few months back so I could make some extra cash and get extra experience.) I worked for the first time this weekend. (I will only work once a month.) My experience with the patients and their families was great.

However, to some of the doctors and residents working that weekend, I was just another peon. I blend in with the CNAs, techs, RNs, all those considered "below" these doctors. Seriously, as a med. student I never get this. Is this how many doctors treat others who aren't considered equals? I didn't announce to everyone that I was a med. student. (Those working close with me knew I was, so I could get a better learning experience.) But I shouldn't have to announce it to everyone just so I get treated decently. I was talked to rudely at times, ignored, and I don't mean to start any arguments, but the women were even worse!

I know not all women and all doctors are like this, but this was extremely disappointing to see at the hospital I was at.

Just an experience worth noting. I hope other hospitals aren't like this, but I know there are conceited doctors everywhere. Do they go into it knowing they are like this or does all that schooling just go to their head? I can't imagine treating anyone as "below" me. 😡

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[NYgirl2]

And I even know a few of the doctors went to school where I did (NYU School of Medicine) and were a few years ahead of me...those jerks.

*venting*

 

[McGillGrad]

You have to remember that for everyone besides the medical students and doctors, it is not a learning environment, it is just a job.

When you become a MD, you will probably be curt with the ancillary staff to make sure you take care of the patients. You would be wasting your time teaching a tech about something only medically trained people would appreciate (or even understand).

And women are vicious to other women, especially if they are hot. Get used to it.

 

[NYgirl2]

You have to remember that for everyone besides the medical students and doctors, it is not a learning environment, it is just a job.

When you become a MD, you will probably be curt with the ancillary staff to make sure you take care of the patients. You would be wasting your time teaching a tech about something only medically trained people would appreciate (or even understand).

True. I'll have to shrug it off, but yeah. It sucked.

And women are vicious to other women, especially if they are hot. Get used to it.

Wow. I must be really hot....😉

 

[docB]

So as to the OP's question "Are they born or made?" I say it's both. Medicine is perceived by many as a field that confers a high degree of respect and awe in the public. Doctors are sometimes depicted in movies and pop culture as being rich, infallable, and so on. Even the pop culture references that show some of the hardships and self doubt inherent in the profession still depict that self doubt as being reconciled by the end of the episode. And every doc is stunningly good looking.

So that's the bait that attracts people who crave that type of adulation or want to justify an existing self image. If they take the bait they get put through a grueling, dehumanizing system to eliminate any remaining social skills and compassion. Even if you were a person who was polite to the CNAs before it's likely to be gone by the time you're on your 30th hour and the only thing standing between you and 20 minutes of sleep or a trip to the bathroom is that you can't find a guiac card.

So you combine a field that looks attractive to people with personality disorders and then make the training reveal, cultivate and amplify those personality disorders and voila - you have bastards in white coats by the thousands.

Same reason why there are so many schizophrenics in the military.

 

[NYgirl2]

So that's the bait that attracts people who crave that type of adulation or want to justify an existing self image. If they take the bait they get put through a grueling, dehumanizing system to eliminate any remaining social skills and compassion. Even if you were a person who was polite to the CNAs before it's likely to be gone by the time you're on your 30th hour and the only thing standing between you and 20 minutes of sleep or a trip to the bathroom is that you can't find a guiac card.

You've got that right. I can see your point there, though there's still no excuse for the bastards.

So you combine a field that looks attractive to people with personality disorders and then make the training reveal, cultivate and amplify those personality disorders and voila - you have bastards in white coats by the thousands.

Same reason why there are so many schizophrenics in the military.

Put ever-so-eloquently. I couldn't have said it better myself. Basically the medical field attracts crazies? Uh oh...I didn't think I was one, though I do have my quirks.😀

 

[NYgirl2]

So DocB, how do you not let it get you down? I'm sure you deal with these jerks even though you are an attending, or don't you? I've lurked on this site long enough to see doctors bashing doctors. Are most of the docs. you work with pompous jerks too or is it other depts.? Just get your job done, care for your pt., go home and forget socializing with coworkers the solution?

 

[gng930]

They're usually made. In fact, it's a required class at many medical schools. 😉😛

 

[Faebinder]

I think they are 90% made and 10% born. The power infrastructure of medicine makes it such that the higher ups.. (chairmen, directors) piss off lower folks (attendings) who piss off lower folks (chief or senior residents) who piss off lower folks (interns and students).

It's a highly pressured field and i am unsure how much more pressure it can take. Many are working more hours for less pay and higher debit. It just seems like nothing is easy or simple anymore. Exams, boards, license applications, hospital privilages, research, paying debit, low RVUs... and the list goes on about so many obstacles to become an established physician and its pressuring personalities and attitudes.

 

[docB]

You've got that right. I can see your point there, though there's still no excuse for the bastards.

Put ever-so-eloquently. I couldn't have said it better myself. Basically the medical field attracts crazies? Uh oh...I didn't think I was one, though I do have my quirks.😀

But that's the thing. It doesn't just attract jerks. It makes the jerks worse and jerkifies people who started out normal.

I am shielded from a lot of the overt hostility because I am an attending. However I do frequently get into it with consultants who have... ahem... issues. As you have noted the people who get it the worst are the non physicians. For example all the EPs I work with are cool to me but some of them can get very testy with nurses, techs and so on. It's an unattractive trait.

 

[yaah]

What I find fascinating is some of the most egotistical and obnoxious people in residency and afterwards are those who did the most complaining as med students. Somehow once they get the MD, they forget all their previous experiences. Sad. The good news (if you want to call it good news) is that those who maintain professional attitudes and pleasant dispositions will generally be more respected and admired by those around them. The idiot's best hope is to get "grudging" respect from others if they become well known in the field or are talented. But, sadly and seemingly unbeknownst to them, they could be so much MORE respected if they had any interpersonal skills or tact. Too many people treat their jobs as full out competitions.

But don't think it is limited to MDs - there are many nurses and ancillary staff out there with equal personality issues.

 

[dutchman]

those who maintain professional attitudes and pleasant dispositions will generally be more respected and admired by those around them...

The idiot's best hope is to get "grudging" respect from others if they become well known in the field or are talented. But, sadly and seemingly unbeknownst to them, they could be so much MORE respected if they had any interpersonal skills or tact..

👍

 

[buckley]

doctors have humogous egos to mask their insecurity. the bigger the ego, the more insecure. that's how i saw it with my attendings. they are usually the ones who feel they have sacrificed so much and think the world owes them BIG time...

 

[Faebinder]

doctors have humogous egos to mask their insecurity. the bigger the ego, the more insecure. that's how i saw it with my attendings. they are usually the ones who feel they have sacrificed so much and think the world owes them BIG time...

Very insightful.

 

[smq123]

Just an experience worth noting. I hope other hospitals aren't like this, but I know there are conceited doctors everywhere. Do they go into it knowing they are like this or does all that schooling just go to their head? I can't imagine treating anyone as "below" me. 😡

I wonder whether I will become like this.

I actually really like a lot of nurses. Many of them at my hospital are excellent and kind. And I like to think that I'm a relatively nice person.

But, on surgery and gyn rotations, I would constantly get yelled at by scrub techs and receptionists. Yelled at for stupid stuff, too - touching the fax machine (???), standing next to the wrong trashcan (????), for "not using my indoor voice." (Exact words - totally serious. And I wasn't even talking loudly!). The only way I can survive a 6 hour operation without going postal on a nasty and condescending scrub tech is if (gulp) I say to myself: "10 years from now, I will be an attending. You will still be only a scrub tech. Enjoy your pathetic little power-trip now, but I'll be an MD someday and you won't."

Am I proud of this survival mechanism? No. Does it work? Beautifully - which is all I care about right now. But I wonder how many other residents survived surgery with a similar mechanism. And I wonder how many attendings carried that philosophy over.

If any nurses are reading this (and I know you do!), please don't take offense. Like I said, a lot of nurses are excellent. Quite a few have been really great with students. But it's amazing how much one bad encounter with a scrub nurse can change your perspective.

 

[Long Dong]

I wonder whether I will become like this.

I actually really like a lot of nurses. Many of them at my hospital are excellent and kind. And I like to think that I'm a relatively nice person.

But, on surgery and gyn rotations, I would constantly get yelled at by scrub techs and receptionists. Yelled at for stupid stuff, too - touching the fax machine (???), standing next to the wrong trashcan (????), for "not using my indoor voice." (Exact words - totally serious. And I wasn't even talking loudly!).

I feel you. I'm just the intern but I still get yelled at and get that how did you ever become a doctor look by everybody. I mean everybody from the RT for standing in his way near the head of the bed, to the Rad Tech for accidently bumping into the portable xray, to the desk clerk for sitting in her chair, to the ED nurse for not knowing were the lub or consent forms are, to the janitor for putting my trash in trash can without a bag in it, to the resident for not knowing what is common knowledge for him and those in his field or for not loving being in the hospital as much as him, and yes even the 4th year med student looks at me like I'm a ******* for not knowing the logisitics of that hospital or rotation. I survive all this by saying to myself I'm just rotating threw this month and next year I'll be working towards being an expert in my choosen field, in the mean time all those angry people can bite me. Of course I'm super duper pleasent to them externally though.

 

[Bertelman]

I was talked to rudely at times, ignored...

As you progress through your training, this will no doubt happen with more frequency. Something to consider is the high stress level associated with working in a hospital. Inherent to that reality is the fact that at any given time, you are unaware of what the other person is enduring, the conversation that person just had, or the bad news they are about to deliver to a patient.

Keeping that in mind, understand that 9/10 times you are treated poorly, it is not personal. They don't look at you and decide to act out. You are anonymous, and that has nothing to do with being a CNA/med student/janitor/intern. You just happen to be in the way of where we are going (the next train wreck). This behavior is limited to those underneath the person dishing the insult only because anyone at an equal/superior level would exact revenge or push back. Believe me, I've wanted to ignore a Sr resident or attending much more often than a CNA. But I know what that would mean for my career.

The best way for you to understand this is to do what you are doing, that is work as someone that is invisible. You'll be able to see all manner of people interact with others. Nurses who are normally very friendly to each other will raise their voices or talk behind backs. That's how you relieve stress. Then the very next day, they'll work side by side and have a great time. That's because they have learned to separate the realities of their jobs with the friends they have made.

Here's the kicker- why did you single out doctors in your post? No doubt you've been degraded by nurses, too. You might be looking for some recognition from these physicians, or some validation of the job you are doing. Unfortunately, few physicians will provide that, certainly not in a hospital setting where you are one of a hundred other CNAs. Granted, no one should berate you, but get used to being ignored. Physicians are just trying to survive their own hectic day, and most aren't too concerned about stroking other's feelings as they trudge along.

If you really want to earn someone's respect in a hospital, just do the best job you possibly can. That's all that is expected. Sooner or later, that job will be acknowledged. You may even gain a few friends along the way. But by and large, the work of a CNA is ignored by physicians, because there are so many more machinations up the food chain to worry about. We just expect that job to be done, and don't really care how that is accomplished. That means the people doing so are transparent.

Lesson: Don't take any tongue lashing personally, from anyone in the hospital. I've received enough of them from nurses. I can only do my best. If you think highly of yourself, you will understand when the person on the other end was out of line. You'll gain someone's respect when they realize that they treated you poorly, you ignored them, then went about your business and did exactly what they thought you were incapable of accomplishing. They will STFU, and you'll feel better about yourself.

If you are looking for validation, you'll never find it at a hospital outside of the Volunteer Office.

 

[swpm]

Same reason why there are so many schizophrenics in the military.

Um, what?

Maybe you could argue that the military attracts people with, and reinforces the traits of, some personality disorders. But schizophrenia? 😕

 

[jessica84]

What I find fascinating is some of the most egotistical and obnoxious people in residency and afterwards are those who did the most complaining as med students. Somehow once they get the MD, they forget all their previous experiences. Sad. The good news (if you want to call it good news) is that those who maintain professional attitudes and pleasant dispositions will generally be more respected and admired by those around them. The idiot's best hope is to get "grudging" respect from others if they become well known in the field or are talented. But, sadly and seemingly unbeknownst to them, they could be so much MORE respected if they had any interpersonal skills or tact. Too many people treat their jobs as full out competitions.

But don't think it is limited to MDs - there are many nurses and ancillary staff out there with equal personality issues.

Definitely agree. I'm glad the OP mentioned this because it reveals that there are many decent people right here on this thread going into the medical profession who don't agree with that type of behavior.

I've seen rude behavior (pointing in all directions) in my clinicals (from various lines of work) and it just makes me cringe. DocB was right. It is a very unattractive trait to say the least. I saw a woman resident completely bash a female med. student in front of nurses, doctors, students, patients-basically everyone who was around (and it's a crowded floor). I head the entire thing, and and it was entirely inappropriate. It was something she could have approached her about in private. She did it in such a manner that you knew she was getting a power trip from it-raising her voice and looking around to see if everyone was watching-and then raising her voice louder.

The doctors and nurses who are polite and even-tempered have my deepest respect and are highly valued by staff and patients.

Bertleman made a good post too (as did others.) See there are some good docs. and future docs. out there! Thank goodness....🙂

 

[sharmei17]

They are mostly made 🙂

😕Born? i don't think so.. that's cruel.. those stupid genes..

 

[herpes]

yeah

 

[deleted4401]

I think there is a bit of a recall bias. You remember bad experiences more vividly than good ones.

Many doctors are really nice people - to patients, staff, techs, janitors, and to other physicians - definitely in my specialty. Also, there are general surgeons, med-oncs, ENTS that I work with that are nicer than kindergarten teachers and you'd be more than happy to have them over your house for dinner or out for a drink.

Many med students start out nice and end up nice. Keep your eyes open - you'll meet them. They are polite to EVERYONE and just as disgusted as you are when people mistreat those "below" them.

-S

 

[McGillGrad]

herpes

yeah, doctors think they're the ****. it doesnt matter what kind of doctor, MD, PhD, or whatever. i think it is made , not born. it's like people who win the lotto, the money changes them... like how people become doctors, that changes them. they think people "lesser" than them are not human beings...

to all the doctors out there who think they're the ****... in the end, we are all human beings... we all ****.. but don't deserve to be treated like ****...

 

[docB]

Um, what?

Maybe you could argue that the military attracts people with, and reinforces the traits of, some personality disorders. But schizophrenia? 😕

The military winds up getting lots of schizophrenics. Young people who are having trouble in school, can't hold a job, etc. get pushed toward the military. Once in these fragile people don't do well with all the stress and get worse. Look at all the vets who are schizophrenic. Look at all the vets who are homeless. Every guy on the freeway ramp with a sign claims to be a vet and many aren't. However, a third of all homeless men are vets. Half are mentally ill and half are addicted. It's similar to medicine attracting and grooming jerks.


http://www.nchv.org/background.cfm

 

[Misterioso]

I'm getting tired of people demanding doctors be all humble...to appease those who didn't spend 4 years in undergrad, 4 years in med school, and 3+ years in residency to get to where they are. If anybody on this planet is entitled and deserves to have an ego it's doctors, especially badass surgeons who accomplish something more meaningful in one week than most people do in their entire lifetime. As long as you can back it up, go ahead and have a massive ego. People will try to shame you into coming down to their level by accussing you of being "insecure" (which they accuse anybody who carries themself as if they're better than them), but you take the high road and go on about your badass self.

 

[Blake]

I'm getting tired of people demanding doctors be all humble...to appease those who didn't spend 4 years in undergrad, 4 years in med school, and 3+ years in residency to get to where they are. If anybody on this planet is entitled and deserves to have an ego it's doctors, especially badass surgeons who accomplish something more meaningful in one week than most people do in their entire lifetime. As long as you can back it up, go ahead and have a massive ego. People will try to shame you into coming down to their level by accussing you of being "insecure" (which they accuse anybody who carries themself as if they're better than them), but you take the high road and go on about your badass self.

Badass misterioso strikes again ! Oh well.

 

[kamehame]

I hope the OP and everyone else in this thread who is unrealistic has made sure that each and every person that they have ever come into contact with -- be it the guy at the bus stop or the janitor at their workplace or even people in cars next to them on the highway -- know that they are special individuals. Otherwise, apparently, you're just egotistical.

 

[Tired]

I hope the OP and everyone else in this thread who is unrealistic has made sure that each and every person that they have ever come into contact with -- be it the guy at the bus stop or the janitor at their workplace or even people in cars next to them on the highway -- know that they are special individuals. Otherwise, apparently, you're just egotistical.

Or you can come to SDN and post really meaningful things like, "Everybody in the hospital is a member of the team, and no one job is more important than another!" Those are my favorites.

 

[kamehame]

People who say stuff like that are (either one or both of) the following:

(1) Insignificant people who desperately need to believe that they are important in order to get through the day. Because if they realized how insignificant they were, they'd kill themselves in a lonely back room of the hospital.

(2) People who desperately need to believe that they are compassionate and base this on the fact that they have blinded themselves to reality and can mouth pointless platitutes that they never actually follow through on. These people are the ones who hold benefit concerts or who sleep on grates in the winter for one day to experience what homeless people go through, as if any of that changes anything. Hilariously, these people are actually more disconnected from the people they profess to care about than everyone else.

Most people on SDN fall into category (2).

 

[AmoryBlaine]

However, I have a hard time getting too angry at MDs who are egotistical. I have had a few contacts with a Nsurgeon at my institution who is a total prick, he clearly believes he is God.

So what? In his little area of the brain he is probably one of the best surgeons in the world. If my future child had a tumor in that area you'd better believe I'd be booking an appointment with Dr. Jerkface.

MDs do not always have time to have friendly interaction with all the ancillary staff (although we should always try to be cordial). Also, as a medical student you should know how interested the nursing/ancillary/secretarial staff are in making us feel welcome!

 

[Tired]

(1) Insignificant people who desperately need to believe that they are important in order to get through the day. Because if they realized how insignificant they were, they'd kill themselves in a lonely back room of the hospital.

(2) People who desperately need to believe that they are compassionate and base this on the fact that they have blinded themselves to reality and can mouth pointless platitutes that they never actually follow through on. These people are the ones who hold benefit concerts or who sleep on grates in the winter for one day to experience what homeless people go through, as if any of that changes anything. Hilariously, these people are actually more disconnected from the people they profess to care about than everyone else.

In other words:

(1) allnurses.com
(2) studentdoctor.net

 

[kamehame]

Bingo, my young padawan.

 

[MossPoh]

I can tell which people will be pricks before they are even at that level. Remember the innately elitist premed jack asses? They exist. I humor them. Many were raised being told they are the best and brightest...and are completely infallible. Their complains are legit complains..yours aren't. It happens on every level. Just take it with a grain of salt and move on. Everyone is an a$$hole at some point in their life, some just are larger percentage of their life. My mother was a rads tech for a very long time...if she ever HEARD of me mistreating ANYONE, I would get my butt kicked all over the place. Some people weren't raised like that...oh well. I'll just be really passive aggressive towards the $h!theads.