Einstein vs. Case (CWRU) vs. Dartmouth

[userxpy]

Hi everyone, any input in this decision is appreciated

Einstein pros:
- chance to live in NYC / be close to Manhattan
- really nice students and faculty
- have done a lot of reaching out since interview
- strong reputation on East Coast
- Montefiore seems like a great medical center
- 1.5 year pre-clinical curriculum

Einstein cons:
- further from family (Illinois)
- Bronx area seems to be boring / not much to do?
- lower ranked (39)


Case pros:
- affiliated hospitals (Cleveland Clinic, university hospital, etc)
- highest ranked (25)
- exams very spread out
- closer to family

Case cons:
- Cleveland seems boring / not much to do
- not sure how PBL and working in groups so frequently would be for my learning style
- traditional 2 year pre-clinical curriculum


Dartmouth pros:
- ivy league reputation
- really enjoyed my interview day with the faculty
- liked the curriculum

Dartmouth cons:
- lower rank?
- super far from family
- not big fan of rural area where Dartmouth is
- match list not as strong as other two

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[SpreadKindness20]

Would choose Case based on the pros and cons you've laid out.

They're all good schools for sure, but Case rises pretty far above the other two in reputation in medicine (and hospital affiliates). Re: PBL, you're going to find that at almost any school these days. Case might do it more, but you're not going to escape group learning by choosing another place. Would also add, as someone deciding whether or not to stay close to family myself, there are a lot of advantages during the stress of med school to knowing that your family is nearby and can help out when the going gets tough.

 

[wondervisions]

Disregard rankings/reputations, go with your gut.

 

[userxpy]

Disregard rankings/reputations, go with your gut.

Don't they matter though?

 

[wondervisions]

Don't they matter though?

Not at that level, not really

 

[betablocker7]

Congrats on great schools! Once you leave the T20, the reputation advantage dropoff is steep (in regards to the most competitive specialties or the tippytop ivory tower academic centers for residencies) so should be less of a consideration between these schools. Case and Einstein have better match lists and both have great medical centers. If you like the Midwest and want that support network, Case makes sense. If you want to take the chance to live in NYC and explore an exciting city, Einstein would be the way to go.

 

[squids82]

Congrats on great schools! Once you leave the T20, the reputation advantage dropoff is steep (in regards to the most competitive specialties or the tippytop ivory tower academic centers for residencies) so should be less of a consideration between these schools. Case and Einstein have better match lists and both have great medical centers. If you like the Midwest and want that support network, Case makes sense. If you want to take the chance to live in NYC and explore an exciting city, Einstein would be the way to go.

Case is definitely in the upper echelon of schools though. They have a very solid match list, especially when you consider the College Program (disclaimer: I am considering CCLCM).

I think this line of thinking isn't very accurate in strict USNWR rankings since that would also exclude places like Baylor from being top-tier (which it very clearly is).

 

[userxpy]

Case is definitely in the upper echelon of schools though. They have a very solid match list, especially when you consider the bunny training Program (disclaimer: I am considering CCLCM).

I think this line of thinking isn't very accurate in strict USNWR rankings since that would also exclude places like Baylor from being top-tier (which it very clearly is).

What's the bunny training program?

 

[StaphOnly.]

That's the U'niversity Program. SDN is currently swapping out certain words with Easter-themed ones since it's A'pril Fools!

 

[squids82]

That's the U'niversity Program. SDN is currently swapping out certain words with Easter-themed ones since it's A'pril Fools!

I was actually referring to C’ollege Program but same idea!

 

[DermResidentYear3]

Case, 100%. Just not even close. The other schools' affiliations simply don't compare to those of Case (especially the Cleveland Clinic). Plus, you'd be close to your family so that's an added bonus (You may not understand how huge that is now, but you will later lol). Case's match list is insane. I just don't see any compelling reason to pick the other two.

 

[userxpy]

Case, 100%. Just not even close. The other schools' affiliations simply don't compare to those of Case (especially the Cleveland Clinic). Plus, you'd be close to your family so that's an added bonus (You may not understand how huge that is now, but you will later lol). Case's match list is insane. I just don't see any compelling reason to pick the other two.

Einstein's match list seemed quite impressive also to me. What do you think of it?

 

[pierty]

I always find it funny how much people - specifically on this site, not elsewhere- view US News rankings with any semblance of credibility (also funny how many Case and NY schools are getting “x vs y threads”; I guess they are sending out plenty of acceptances now)

Rankings do not matter - one bit. No PD checks them, ever.

Reputation of your school is different; on the margins, it seems to provide potentially a slight buffer if you under-perform, but the echo chamber here (mainly, the anxious - and anxiogenic - pre-meds that amplify each other’s misled opinions in a “blind leading the blind” ordeal) over-estimate this effect constantly. Schools with great reputations (Hopkins, Emory) have students that SOAPed in recent years. Even more telling - schools with incredible reputations that accrue students with lower baseline statistics/less sociopathic “gunners”, or bias toward regions without as many “top programs” - UWashington, UCLA, UCSD, Northwestern - have match list trends that are equal or worse to schools that are outside the “holy” T20 that pre-meds oogle over. These are not anomalies, but consistent trends over several years of matches. Neither are they reflections of teaching quality at these institutions - they are just differences in the philosophy for student recruitment, which also reflects in differences in student preferences come match time.

Regardless, none of this matters to you. All 3 of these schools are viewed as excellent institutions with excellent reputations in academic medicine. Geisel a bit less so, as it is a much smaller research institution than the other 2, but all 3 consistently have many students match into top residencies. For accuracy, there is a slight difference throughout the past 5 years between Einstein/Case and Dartmouth students matching to the most competitive IM programs, but this difference is not very substantial, and likely reflects regional bias and student accrual.

All schools seem rather far from your family. I would attend the revisits, if you still can, and try to get a feel for the culture/community of each school, any unique opportunities that align with your interests that they might provide, and how you would ultimately feel being there for 4 years.

Med school is tough. Find the place that makes it easiest for you, and you will perform the strongest (and potentially enjoy yourself a bit while you‘re there).

 

[pierty]

Case, 100%. Just not even close. The other schools' affiliations simply don't compare to those of Case (especially the Cleveland Clinic). Plus, you'd be close to your family so that's an added bonus (You may not understand how huge that is now, but you will later lol). Case's match list is insane. I just don't see any compelling reason to pick the other two.

Majority of Case students staying in Ohio don’t match at CC (some years, I believe none have even matched; I would have to look back at the data), but instead at UH. Great hospital on par with Montefiore, but not nearly as competitive as CC. I think this is where some of the warped perception comes.

Match outcomes are great between all 3, less at Geisel, but again this could easily be due to the large amount of non-trads looking to match at the place they shipped their family to at the age of 30-something rather than 26.

 

[wondervisions]

I always find it funny how much people - specifically on this site, not elsewhere- view US News rankings with any semblance of credibility (also funny how many Case and NY schools are getting “x vs y threads”; I guess they are sending out plenty of acceptances now)

Rankings do not matter - one bit. No PD checks them, ever.

Reputation of your school is different; on the margins, it seems to provide potentially a slight buffer if you under-perform, but the echo chamber here (mainly, the anxious - and anxiogenic - pre-meds that amplify each other’s misled opinions in a “blind leading the blind” ordeal) over-estimate this effect constantly. Schools with great reputations (Hopkins, Emory) have students that SOAPed in recent years. Even more telling - schools with incredible reputations that accrue students with lower baseline statistics/less sociopathic “gunners”, or bias toward regions without as many “top programs” - UWashington, UCLA, UCSD, Northwestern - have match list trends that are equal or worse to schools that are outside the “holy” T20 that pre-meds oogle over. These are not anomalies, but consistent trends over several years of matches. Neither are they reflections of teaching quality at these institutions - they are just differences in the philosophy for student recruitment, which also reflects in differences in student preferences come match time.

Regardless, none of this matters to you. All 3 of these schools are viewed as excellent institutions with excellent reputations in academic medicine. Geisel a bit less so, as it is a much smaller research institution than the other 2, but all 3 consistently have many students match into top residencies. For accuracy, there is a slight difference throughout the past 5 years between Einstein/Case and Dartmouth students matching to the most competitive IM programs, but this difference is not very substantial, and likely reflects regional bias and student accrual.

All schools seem rather far from your family. I would attend the revisits, if you still can, and try to get a feel for the culture/community of each school, any unique opportunities that align with your interests that they might provide, and how you would ultimately feel being there for 4 years.

Med school is tough. Find the place that makes it easiest for you, and you will perform the strongest (and potentially enjoy yourself a bit while you‘re there).

As a Case student, I agree wholeheartedly. Go to the school where you will be happiest and makes financial sense. Whichever you choose, you will end up with an MD from an excellent school that will get you wherever you want to go, assuming you're willing to put in the work.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Case. It just has a better reputation and overall is a stronger program as well.

 

[pierty]

As a Case student, I agree wholeheartedly. Go to the school where you will be happiest and makes financial sense. Whichever you choose, you will end up with an MD from an excellent school that will get you wherever you want to go, assuming you're willing to put in the work.

OP, I think you are seeing a snippet of why Case students do “so well.” It isn’t the first time I’ve heard that great attitude from one - and I am certain you will find similar students at Dartmouth and Einstein.

Case. It just has a better reputation and overall is a stronger program as well.

Not sure what metric you are using to gauge this. I actually know several alums from Case, Einstein, and Dartmouth all doing incredible things at “high” places. I also find that the classmates who talk less about the perceived “reputation” of their programs/residencies tend to do quite strong - and appear much happier - than many of their classmates.

Op, are you interested in a career in academic medicine? Piecemeal perspectives from one anonymous person or another doesn’t really provide much insight, but some prominent physician scientists (in collaboration with Doximity) did an unbiased analysis about medical grad success and published it in the AAMC official journal. They took data from 60 years to compile a “research ranking” of medical schools based on outcomes. I don’t normally advise reading rankings too often (especially USNWR, which really mean nothing) because your success isn’t defined by your classmates, but this one is at least: entirely objective, has a massive cohort (almost 700,000 graduates) so is fairly accurate, and can at least tell you where you’ll likely find many of the most motivated, industrious, and gifted students in the country going into academic medicine. Anyways, all 3 schools in your list make the top 25 (table 3):

What Makes a Top Research Medical School? A Call for a New... : Academic Medicine

ised the quality of medical education, the educational processes that produce the physicians who provide the best patient care and conduct the best biomedical research have not been identified. Comparative analyses are powerful tools to understand the differences between institutions, but they...

journals.lww.com

All to be taken with a grain of salt. Wondervisions gave you excellent advice - mine would just be to follow it.

 

[biff_webster16]

Montefiore is an awful system (current employee) and Einstein treated its students poorly during COVID - arguably the worst among the NYC schools. I'm going to Dartmouth but if I were you I would choose Case for the reasons you've laid out.

 

[pierty]

Montefiore is an awful system (current employee) and Einstein treated its students poorly during COVID - arguably the worst among the NYC schools. I'm going to Dartmouth but if I were you I would choose Case for the reasons you've laid out.

I have no idea how Einstein treated it’s students throughout COVID, but you are an employee at Montefiore, starting medical school next cycle? Seems strange.

 

[biff_webster16]

I have no idea how Einstein treated it’s students throughout COVID, but you are an employee at Montefiore, starting medical school next cycle? Seems strange.

How is this strange?

 

[pierty]

How is this strange?

You come off with the authority (speaking about the hospital) as if you are a resident, when it seems you are pre-med.

I generally advise students to be very careful listening to other pre-meds for advice, particularly on SDN. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve seen students “popping-in” to vs. forums to sway an applicant away from a school, because they are on the WL/hoping for an interview at that school.

I’m not ascribing this to you, but if I were in a student’s place deciding between schools, I would take everything with a hefty grain of salt.

 

[ThatSerb]

Montefiore is an awful system (current employee) and Einstein treated its students poorly during COVID - arguably the worst among the NYC schools. I'm going to Dartmouth but if I were you I would choose Case for the reasons you've laid out.

what is so bad about montefiore?

 

[biff_webster16]

You come off with the authority (speaking about the hospital) as if you are a resident, when it seems you are pre-med.

I generally advise students to be very careful listening to other pre-meds for advice, particularly on SDN. I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve seen students “popping-in” to vs. forums to sway an applicant away from a school, because they are on the WL/hoping for an interview at that school.

I’m not ascribing this to you, but if I were in a student’s place deciding between schools, I would take everything with a hefty grain of salt.

"Speaking as if a resident" give me a break. It would "seem" I am a pre-med because it says so right under my username.

 

[biff_webster16]

what is so bad about montefiore?

There has been a lot of bad blood between leadership and staff and things have only gotten worse over the last several months. Montefiore hasn't honored its contracts with its nurses and hasn't provided previously agreed to raises leading to nursing strikes at multiple affiliate hospitals despite paying travelers $10k/week well into the spring last year. I don't want to get too specific for some obvious privacy reasons but the way they've treated "VIPs" during COVID has never sat right with me - allowing borderline admission COVID+ executives and higher ups to request (and receive) ICU beds when they didn't want to be on the general medicine floor, ignoring visitation rules and securing antibody treatments before other patients could get them. The vaccine rollout has gotten much better but it was a mess in the early winter with hospitals giving vaccinations to VIPs in city government before most employees - especially unit clerks and the environmental services staff. Does this necessarily affect students, house staff and attendings? Likely not. That being said, I would take a hard look at working with an organization that treats staff as expendable.

Edit: I'm clearly not the expert here but I'll also throw out that many of the docs I work with who trained at other NY institutions (e.g. NYP, Mount Sinai) just shake their heads at a lot of what Montefiore does and say stuff like "this wouldn't fly at xyz hospital."

 

[pierty]

There has been a lot of bad blood between leadership and staff and things have only gotten worse over the last several months. Montefiore hasn't honored its contracts with its nurses and hasn't provided previously agreed to raises leading to nursing strikes at multiple affiliate hospitals despite paying travelers $10k/week well into the spring last year. I don't want to get too specific for some obvious privacy reasons but the way they've treated "VIPs" during COVID has never sat right with me - allowing borderline admission COVID+ executives and higher ups to request (and receive) ICU beds when they didn't want to be on the general medicine floor, ignoring visitation rules and securing antibody treatments before other patients could get them. The vaccine rollout has gotten much better but it was a mess in the early winter with hospitals giving vaccinations to VIPs in city government before most employees - especially unit clerks and the environmental services staff. Does this necessarily affect students, house staff and attendings? Likely not. That being said, I would take a hard look at working with an organization that treats staff as expendable.

Edit: I'm clearly not the expert here but I'll also throw out that many of the docs I work with who trained at other NY institutions (e.g. NYP, Mount Sinai) just shake their heads at a lot of what Montefiore does and say stuff like "this wouldn't fly at xyz hospital."

Interesting - unfortunately, this terrible treatment is widely prevalent at the big hospitals, especially those that are considered very strong programs (I.e, you mentioned New York Presbyterian; they also have specialized VIP treatment. Look at MGH, UCSF, Georgetown, and many others, and you will find very similar disproportionate treatment of “VIP” people and mal-treatment of nurses in some departments. It’s terrible).

You can also look at the attendings at some of these institutions. NYP-Col had many malicious actors, including an OB-GYN that was sexually assaulting his patients, including the wife of the previous presidential candidate Andrew Yang.

This is the unfortunate truth of medicine - the embedded hierarchy, and consistent denigration and mistreatment of the lower rungs, are absolutely rampant everywhere. This is changing, though - painfully slowly, but it is changing.

I’m honestly not sure your experience would be that different if you were at the other NY institutions. But my instinct wouldn’t be to single out Montefiore; I’ve just heard similar experiences everywhere.