Elective Rotation Crash Course

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Blondbondgirl

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Hey guys-

I am an American studying in Germany preparing for an elective rotation in the states-I haven't yet confirmed which rotation, but it is definitely non-surgical (probably neurology or family medicine). Clinical experience here and patient work-ups are SO DIFFERENT! I have American textbooks and Lord knows I am caught up on my Grey's/Scrubs/ER but I need a crash course as an "outsider".

So pretend an alien, fluent in English, showed up for a 4th-year rotation. What is your advice? What is the basic structure of the day? What is expected of her?

Thanks a Latte!:hardy:

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From my experience talking with people attending European medical schools (and with that as the caveat -- I haven't actually done rotations there), the biggest difference seems to be the role you are expected to take on the team. Namely, you are expected to make yourself part of the team. And to complicate matters, for you, it doesn't always happen naturally -- you are just supposed to figure it out. Usually third year is all about adjusting to this and figuring out the seemingly impossible task of making yourself part of the team when no one tells you what you're supposed to do. Doing this as a fourth year won't be fun.

If you do an inpatient rotation, you can expect to have anywhere from 3 to 7 patients (more on busy services), for which you will take primary responsibility. You should expect to write their admit note as well as daily progress notes, and both will be cosigned by your intern or resident. You may also be expected to dictate their discharge summaries (ask "how do I dictate here?" and they'll tell you whether there is a system where you can dictate it vs. an MD having to do it). You should write their orders to be cosigned by a resident or intern. Because the RNs won't be calling you directly at most hospitals, you should start each day by giving the RNs your number and asking them to call you if anything comes up with your patients. Really stay on top of this, because it's embarrasing not to know major events with your patients (and even though no one thought to tell you, everyone expects you to magically know). If this is an audition rotation, you should pay attention to the way your residents and interns are presenting and model your presentations after them. Make sure you get early feedback from more than one person about your presentations, as cultural differences probably affect this dramatically, and much of your attending evaluation comes from your presentations. Also get feedback on your notes, since this is another easy way to evaluate you. Finally, you should do little mini-presentations on topics of interest (preferably relevant to a question that came up discussing one of your patients) -- 10 minutes tops, single sided hand out for everyone on the team. One presentation every week or two should be sufficient. Run it by your chief resident before you do it to make sure the topic is good and so they can say to the attending "Oh, I think Blondbondgirl has a presentation on X! Do you want to hear it now?"

As far as the structure of the day, on my neurology rotation I arrived about 6:00, rounds were 7:00 to about 10 a.m. The period from 10-12 is the "hour of power" where you can get things done easily -- scheduling radiology studies, calling consults (who will often give you a very hard time if you call them after noon for anything other than an urgent issue), writing orders, placing notes on charts, talking to the nurses regarding what the plan is for the day, etc. 12-1 was a conference, then on non-call days finishing up work, dealing with issues that came up during the day, until done with work usually around 5 or 6 p.m., sign out to the on call team. If on call, obviously mix admitting in with all of this (try to see any new patient within 30 minutes of getting report, and have a note and preliminary orders by 1 hour from getting report) and you take sign out instead of giving it (although on many services as the med student you won't be expected to cross cover, on some you are and this is torture). If you are not cross covering anyone formally, talk to your intern or resident and see how you can help them with cross cover -- even little things like putting in IVs or drawing blood or putting in NG tubes can really take a lot of the load off them.

As a fourth year, people want to see you acting at the level of an intern they want on their team. So, anything the intern is doing for his patients, you should be doing for yours. You won't always know the plan, but you are expected to look it up quickly and have some kind of plan by the time you present to your resident (unless there is something urgent/patient decompinsating, in which case you should bump it up quickly).

I've only spent 7 weeks on outpatient, so I can't help you much with the fam med thing -- maybe someone else can give you some pointers there.

Best,
Anka
p.s. If your sick, you should go in anyway. If your team isn't going home yet, you don't go home. And don't sit there asking if you can go home.
 
p.s. If your sick, you should go in anyway.

The part of me that wants to do infectious disease just shuddered at reading this. If you are legitimately sick (temp above 101.4, phlegm, chills, the works), for the love of god do not come in, your colleagues and patients will thank you.
 
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It always amazes me, people who work as hard as anka describes...Actually it pisses me off....what is the point other than to make the other students look bad...God knows the residents rarely have any say in your grading, and the attendings aren't on the floor enough to know whether or not you're working hard...You should work hard enough so that the residents don't hate you, but all this ambitious krap and staying in the hospital overtime just makes life tough for everyone else...And no, as a student you are rarely actually helping work get done, mainly because everyone above you still has to check in....You can do the work of a lab tech/nurse, sure, but whatever.

Most of your grade is just how well you can present patients and how well you participate in any of the teaching experiences you get with attendings and directors.....Staying in the hospital all those extra hours volunteering scut just takes away from your study time and your ability to actually know what the heck you're doing and how best to manage your patients. Sure, you'll pick up by osmosis from what the residents are doing, but unless you're at a really good hospital, half the time the residents are going to be poorly qualified for you to learn anything from anyway...You have to learn some on your own and draw your own conclusions instead of just blindly accepting the commonly practiced protocols (usually ordering countless unnecessary lab tests/imaging)if you want to eventually become a really good physician, and part of that entails studying and reading review articles, etc.
 
I believe Anka was describing the "ideal" M4. Sure reality will probably be different, but it is good a model to shoot for. Although I am still an M3, it is my understanding that M4s should function much more on the intern level. Scardshizzles is generally correct with the "work smarter, not harder" approach, but make sure that you appear to work hard even if you are not. However, you'll proabably work hard simply because of the unfamiliar system.
 
If you are a visiting student you do still have to do these things? I hear sometimes things are very intense here in the states but my other friends they take it easy a lot for sure! :D It is not as you seem I do not think. We round on patients but then it is OK to just follow the residents for the day and learn from them. This is good I think.
 
God knows the residents rarely have any say in your grading,

That may have been the case at your medical school but both in residency and fellowship, not only did the attendings ask for housestaff input into medical student evaluations (which did comprise part of their grade as well as whether or not they passed the rotation), but we were also asked to evaluate the medical students.

and the attendings aren't on the floor enough to know whether or not you're working hard.[/B]..

Which is exactly the reason why the ask the housestaff what the students are *really* like, how hard they work, etc. Residents spend a lot more time with students than attendings.
 
That may have been the case at your medical school but both in residency and fellowship, not only did the attendings ask for housestaff input into medical student evaluations (which did comprise part of their grade as well as whether or not they passed the rotation), but we were also asked to evaluate the medical students.



Which is exactly the reason why the ask the housestaff what the students are *really* like, how hard they work, etc. Residents spend a lot more time with students than attendings.


Well I think there is some truth to that depending on the hospital...more times than not that takes too much work to collaborate on, and so it winds up being easier to more or less assign random grades...by random I mean based on a small sample size of interaction with the student...At hospitals more directly a part of the medical college, they probably do have systems in place that make sure to try to include housestaff input. B

ut again, it is probably rare that much time is spent on evaluating students, and if you know how the system works wherever you are, it isn't too hard to try to make an impression on a few important people and otherwise just do a decent amount of work around everyone else without overdoing it. And I think it is easier to make an impression with an intelligent observation/discussion with an attending regarding a patient/case, than working your butt off. 3rd and 4th year should really be more about learning and about deciding what field you might have an interest in....you can't really do either of those by spending 17 hours/day in a hospital working your butt off the entire time. It's annoying to the rest of us and it's not making you a better physician...it may be helping your grade somewhat, but it probably isn't necessary for honors and it might hurt your chances if you then don't do as well on the shelf.
 
Then that is bad because many residents are unhappy people. I think they take this out on students. I follow them in the hospital but sometimes they become very irritated for no reason. So I worry many times that they are grading me if that is true. But since I am just visiting it matters much less probably.
 
Then that is bad because many residents are unhappy people. I think they take this out on students. I follow them in the hospital but sometimes they become very irritated for no reason. So I worry many times that they are grading me if that is true. But since I am just visiting it matters much less probably.

They're in a bad mood because they're in a hospital for waaay too many hours. Which is part of my point, if you work that hard as a student you're going to be in a pretty lousy mood, probably self medicating with ritalin, coffee and speed. And I don't think that kind of mood is particularly conducive towards your making a good decision whether you like a field of medicine or not.
 
Thanks guys, this is helping alot. Anka's replied had scared the schnitzel out of me because

1-Germans are crack-addicts for theory (especially pathophysiology), so if someone expects me to know what treatment schemes with exact dosages I should start in the US or start various procedures alone....:eek: I do not feel qualified and do not want to put patients at risk. I am a quick learner and willing to work, but I hope it is feasible to ask to shadow the first week only to get a feel for the rhythm in the states.

2- "p.s. If your sick, you should go in anyway. "
That is just inhuman and irresponsible. I am so glad most everyone else sees it that way.

And now for my humble ramblings-if you get a chance, do a rotation in Europe. You would be amazed how different the philosophy is-frustrating, but fascinating!!
 
1-Germans are crack-addicts for theory (especially pathophysiology), so if someone expects me to know what treatment schemes with exact dosages I should start in the US or start various procedures alone....:eek: I do not feel qualified and do not want to put patients at risk. I am a quick learner and willing to work, but I hope it is feasible to ask to shadow the first week only to get a feel for the rhythm in the states.

You will never be expected (nor permitted for that matter) to do any procedure unsupervised or without instruction. However, attendings (especially surgeons) love to pimp students on pathophys, so you're still going to have to stay on top of that. What can I say, you're a medical student.

Blondbondgirl said:
2- "p.s. If your sick, you should go in anyway. "
That is just inhuman and irresponsible. I am so glad most everyone else sees it that way.

Without saying which hospital this occurred at, I have heard of residents and attendings that still come to work looking deathly ill and even perform surgery with a hoarse throat and sneezing. Anka's advice is really geared towards someone that is treating this as an audition rotation (i.e. you're trying to impress so you have a good chance of eventually matching at that hospital). As a foreign medical grad, your performance at an audition rotation will probably be the single most important determinant of where they rank you. So what's the best way to impress? Do as they do. Be an intern (even better, if you can).
 
Thanks guys, this is helping alot. Anka's replied had scared the schnitzel out of me because

1-Germans are crack-addicts for theory (especially pathophysiology), so if someone expects me to know what treatment schemes with exact dosages I should start in the US or start various procedures alone....:eek: I do not feel qualified and do not want to put patients at risk. I am a quick learner and willing to work, but I hope it is feasible to ask to shadow the first week only to get a feel for the rhythm in the states.

No body expects you to know that stuff out of the box, but they do expect you to be able to look it up in about 10 minutes (try uptodate... it's your friend, will outline the tx and dosages). As far as starting procedures on your own, you're going to be supervised, but you should at least pick up how to prepare the room and patient for the procedure (i.e., the third time you're doing a lumbar puncture with your resident, you should be able to get everything you need together at the bedside, have a consent form ready, then call your resident and tell them you're ready to start, get the patient positioned while they're on their way over, etc.). I wouldn't ask to shadow -- you'll get the rhythm fast enough by dancing to it, and your residents are going to keep a much closer eye on you the first week anyway. That said, don't be an idiot. If you aren't comfortable with something, talk to your resident. If you have a patient you think is even the least bit unstable, call your resident.

Best,
Anka
 
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Anka's advice is really geared towards someone that is treating this as an audition rotation (i.e. you're trying to impress so you have a good chance of eventually matching at that hospital). As a foreign medical grad, your performance at an audition rotation will probably be the single most important determinant of where they rank you. So what's the best way to impress? Do as they do. Be an intern (even better, if you can).

Exactly. If you're just doing it to hang out in the states for a bit and see a different system, relax, have fun, shadow a bit, etc. If you're trying to get a job, act like the person the interns want to have as their intern when they are residents -- and trust me, no resident wants to do the intern's job when they have to take a day off because their sick. Put a mask on, wash your hands frequently, wear gloves before touching anyone if what you have is a cold. If you have pertussus, you gotta stay home.

Anka
 
As a 3rd yr I consider my primary job is to learn from the patients and help out the residents/attendings. I also make it a point to leave (w/ permission) whenever I am done so that I can get some studying done. Many residents/attendings forget that we are there to learn and try to keep us busy with their scut work or keep us sitting around twiddling our thumbs. While it may seem rude to remind them of our primary responsibility, I always made it a point to mention that I wanted to study in the evening until they would get the idea. Some may argue that this is a good way to get a bad eval, but I havent gotten a bad one so far, I get more time to study/play and I am not irritable and angry w/ life! 4th yr might be different, but many aproblem can be dealt w/ by playing the Foreign Student card
 
so what are rotations like in europe, blondbondgirl?
 
The part of me that wants to do infectious disease just shuddered at reading this. If you are legitimately sick (temp above 101.4, phlegm, chills, the works), for the love of god do not come in, your colleagues and patients will thank you.

Another student on my floor called in sick yesterday and my attending flat out said that if she were that student's attending, she would fail him.
 
Another student on my floor called in sick yesterday and my attending flat out said that if she were that student's attending, she would fail him.

That is ridiculous. I would love to see an attending legitimately send a student running a fever and hacking up junk from his lungs into a neutropenic patient's room. That attitude is archaic. At my school, we are told time and time again that if you are REALLY sick, it is a flat out liability for you to show up and work.
 
That is ridiculous. I would love to see an attending legitimately send a student running a fever and hacking up junk from his lungs into a neutropenic patient's room. That attitude is archaic. At my school, we are told time and time again that if you are REALLY sick, it is a flat out liability for you to show up and work.

I'm going to guess that you haven't begun rotations yet. For the most part, clerkship sites don't give a rats behind what any given medical student's school policy is. Whatever residents put up with at the hospital you are at... you should be willing to do the same. If this is an audition rotation/sub-I, then nothing short of terminal illness should keep you away from the hospital. If anything, make them tell you to go home... otherwise, ALWAYS show up.

Btw, I've noticed that the attending's usually don't care one way or the other. Its usually the chief resident that brings up attendance as an issue. It also may depend on the rotation you're on. A low maintenance outpatient ped's rotation is probably not going to be that big of a deal if you call in sick. But a Q3 overnight obstetrics service? Any no-show is going to ruffle a lot of feathers.
 
And as you can see from the preceding discussion -- if you are sick and you are trying to get a job (i.e., it's an audition rotation), you should probably go in to be on the safe side. Your resident will send you home if he/she thinks you are too sick to work.

Best,
Anka
 
I'm going to guess that you haven't begun rotations yet.

You guess wrong, buddy. I'm just goin' by what I've seen and experienced on the wards. I have yet to run into a situation where a student was hurt by, and I'll say this again, a legitimate sick day because it is the correct thing to do for, and I'll say this again too, patient safety. Some sniffles? You drag your a$$ in. Meningitis? I'm thinking you should stay home. However, if you're sick enough to miss work, you're sick enough that you need to be seen by a doctor and the legitimate part comes by you bringing a note saying you were busted down sick. It's not under my control if you work with a bunch of d-bags.
 
You guess wrong, buddy. I'm just goin' by what I've seen and experienced on the wards. I have yet to run into a situation where a student was hurt by, and I'll say this again, a legitimate sick day because it is the correct thing to do for, and I'll say this again too, patient safety. Some sniffles? You drag your a$$ in. Meningitis? I'm thinking you should stay home. However, if you're sick enough to miss work, you're sick enough that you need to be seen by a doctor and the legitimate part comes by you bringing a note saying you were busted down sick. It's not under my control if you work with a bunch of d-bags.

Well, best of luck in securing that highly competitive family practice residency. :cool:
 
Well since someone asked...

We are required to do 4 "Famulaturen" = 1-month-electives between our 5th and 10th semester-we aren't allowed to do them during the semester (that's what lectures on internal medicine, ENT, GYN, etc. are for as well as occasional days on the floor, shadowing a doc) So it depends a lot on whether you know the doc you are taking the elective with (from class or your doctoral thesis) but usually you pretty much shadow all day.

One big difference is that nurses here usually aren't qualified to draw blood and it is generally the doctor's responsiblity, which is pushed onto the students. The old joke around here is that the 2 things you learn as a med student are how to draw blood and how to hold still in the OR (we get to hold things). I have been lucky to be with some great docs who let me assist surgeries and procedures, but you have to be insistent. We aren't really evaluated and there are no tests involved, so you are free to learn and stay as long as you can.

Unfortunately, you don't get your own patients (with the exception of an occasional admission) until your last year- "praktisches jahr". You have 4 months of internal med, 4 months of surgery, and 4 months of an elective. At the end of our PJ we have both the written and oral/practical final exam (like step 2) so that's when we really need to study. We usually aren't paid for this last year (unless you go to switzerland or an underserved area in Germany) but after that we go right into residency (they did away with their internship a few years ago).

So you are really thrown into cold water here as a resident. You have WAY more theory than in the American system, but they expect you to learn the practical stuff as a resident. ("you can train a monkey to do surgery") The other problem is that the residency is not as well organized in the states in that ultimately only the attendings are responsible for your education, no older/more experienced residents are required to help you, teach you or be responsible for you. I think it is kind of scary.

That's just my experience so far...
 
Hi Blondbondgirl, I did medical school in Germany, too, and am now in residency in the US. Giving presentations on rounds was one of the things I found most different between the American versus the German way services are run. We didn't really learn "the one correct way to present a patient" in medical school (but rather had different preprinted forms on each ward or at least at each hospital), and I don't know if you have had the same experience.
However, as a MS on an American hospital team, you're expected to present all newly admitted patients and the ones you prerounded on during rounds every day, and some attendings may get upset if you don't follow their template for doing this. Some seem to think their presentation template is the only valid one, so ask your intern/resident in the beginning what order you should follow. In general, I can recommend the book "First Aid for the Wards". Ideally, you should be able to present your patients without having to look at your notes (but local custom may vary).
 
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