Elephant In The room?

Discover Your Odds of Getting into Medical School
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nonniesmile

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Considering the time and money required to get through medical school, meager backend residency pay, high liability insurance and the lost income under Obamacare:
Is an M.D. still worth it for a mid-life career changer, 30+?
Is the potential income loss over 8 years worth it in this economy?
What good is making 300k/yr if $200k/yr is handed over to insurance?
Why spend several years incurring debt and losing income, for an end goal salary equivalent to a nurse, accountant or computer programmer...all these attained with a 4 year education?

Please advise.
 
Medical School Loans: 300k
Lost income for 4 years: 200k

Having a job you love: Priceless




Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile app. Blame Siri if the spelling or grammar are bad.
 
deekle said:
medical school loans: 300k
lost income for 4 years: 200k

having a job you love: Priceless




sent from my iphone using sdn mobile app. Blame siri if the spelling or grammar are bad.
Click to expand...

+7
 
From a strictly numbers point of view, it doesn't make sense, especially if you had a good paying job before med school. But this is a forum with people in their 30's, 40's, 50's, and maybe a few even older, who decided it is more important to be happy doing what we want than to be practical. You only live once.
 
nonniesmile said:
Considering the time and money required to get through medical school, meager backend residency pay, high liability insurance and the lost income under Obamacare:
Is an M.D. still worth it for a mid-life career changer, 30+?
Is the potential income loss over 8 years worth it in this economy?
What good is making 300k/yr if $200k/yr is handed over to insurance?
Why spend several years incurring debt and losing income, for an end goal salary equivalent to a nurse, accountant or computer programmer...all these attained with a 4 year education?

Please advise.
Click to expand...

You are overestimating the amount of money going towards liability insurance.

You are also overestimating the amount of motivation money has for a career changer.
 
fortunately I have none of these practical concerns as I'll live better on student loans than I do on a lab tech salary. BUT, yes, financially there are significant issues with this path once your 30+. However, as others have expressed, it's not entirely about the money. You're fooling yourself (or too young and idealistic for the non-trad forum) if you say finances don't matter at all, but I agree that given the percentage of our lives we will spend working, almost no financial compromise should deter you from medicine it's what you're truly passionate about.

*disclaimer, I don't have kids to support yet, and I'm sure that's a whole different tub of worms.
 
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nonniesmile said:
Considering the time and money required to get through medical school, meager backend residency pay, high liability insurance and the lost income under Obamacare:
Is an M.D. still worth it for a mid-life career changer, 30+?
Is the potential income loss over 8 years worth it in this economy?
What good is making 300k/yr if $200k/yr is handed over to insurance?
Why spend several years incurring debt and losing income, for an end goal salary equivalent to a nurse, accountant or computer programmer...all these attained with a 4 year education?

Please advise.
Click to expand...

What good is 100k+ salary at 26 years old if you hate your job and would rather cut your own eyes out than continue down that career path for the next 40+ years?

This pursuit is better, to me, for me. And no, the numbers don't add up, that's why they had little to nothing to do with my decision.
 
rguil15 said:
What good is 100k+ salary at 26 years old if you hate your job and would rather cut your own eyes out than continue down that career path for the next 40+ years?

This pursuit is better, to me, for me. And no, the numbers don't add up, that's why they had little to nothing to do with my decision.
Click to expand...

100k+ salary at 26 is great if you love to travel, have kids, want a vacation home, etc. I'm pretty tired of living on 1.5 crap salaries as both I and my fiance have spend time in graduate school- we want to think about a family, travel together, etc, but have to put it all off because we simply can't afford it. That said, I agree, the numbers had nothing to do with my decision either, because honestly, they're pretty scary.
 
nonniesmile said:
What good is making 300k/yr if $200k/yr is handed over to insurance?
Why spend several years incurring debt and losing income, for an end goal salary equivalent to a nurse, accountant or computer programmer...all these attained with a 4 year education?
Click to expand...

First of all, $200k for malpractice seems an overestimate. Even if it were that bad...for most people, $100k/year is VERY good money. A lot of people, even at 30, make little more (or even a little less) than a resident's salary to begin with!
Most computer programmers I know who make money on that scale have a graduate degree, and I'm pretty sure nurses are not paid on an equivalent scale to doctors (depending on specialty, of course).

Every job has a range of possible salaries, and if you get caught up comparing the top 5% of accountant's salaries to the average doctor's salary, it's going to mislead you.

http://www.payscale.com/education/benefit-of-college-education
http://www.profilesdatabase.com/resources/2011-2012-physician-salary-survey

Scroll down to see the 'best-paying' 4-year degrees. The average starting salaries are $45k-$65k, and while they do increase, you only get salaries comparable to half (to overestimate malpractice costs) of a starting doctor's income after YEARS of experience.

So while people with very well paying jobs at age 30, might not find it worthwhile salary-wise, I think that we tend to forget that doctors make enough money that even if it's less lucrative than it used to be, it still puts most other incomes to shame.
 
wanderedtoolong said:
fortunately I have none of these practical concerns as I'll live better on student loans than I do on a lab tech salary. BUT, yes, financially there are significant issues with this path once your 30+. However, as others have expressed, it's not entirely about the money. Your fooling yourself (or too young and idealistic for the non-trad forum) if you say finances don't matter at all, but I agree that given the percentage of our lives we will spend working, almost no financial compromise should deter you from medicine it's what you're truly passionate about.

*disclaimer, I don't have kids to support yet, and I'm sure that's a whole different tub of worms.
Click to expand...

you're*

--

Agreed with everyone else said. Go become a PA.
 
I think the physician's salary is exaggerated. If all the time and effort put towards becoming a doctor was focused on another career, one could reach similar financial state - especially when considering long-term investments. Putting back 20-30% of one's income (assuming $50-70k) into a well managed portfolio in their early 20s brings in some significant retirement figures.

Unless I land some very high paying surgery job, I doubt I make the business case close. Like others have said, though, this isn't about the money. It's about doing something that will make me happy - something I can go home at night and feel like I've done something I can be proud of.
 
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200K for med mal? Seriously? Here are the latest rates ffrom ISMIE, an Illinois med mal company that insures over 50% of all doctors in Illinois:

http://www.ismie.com/coverages/Documents/rate-chart-2011.pdf

As you can see, for the typical $1M/$3M limits, you'd have to be a neurosurgeon practicing in Chicago to break the 200,000 mark. And IL is generally considered one of the "worst" medmal states in the country, whatever that means.

You're exaggerating. And your reference to "obamacare" is entirely presumptive. So relax! If you want to do medicine, you can probably put food on a nice fancy table.

Not every nurse, accountant, computer programmer can climb the pyramid - it's a pyramid afterall, not a rectangular skyskraper. Sure, you might make over 100k in one of those fields...but, you might not. The nice part of medicine is just about any doctor can make a pretty good living.
 
100k @ 26 in engineering/programming? Possible, but only for the top performers in the field. You should compare those guys to medicine's specialists a couple of years out of residency.
 
didanawisgi said:
I think the physician's salary is exaggerated. If all the time and effort put towards becoming a doctor was focused on another career, one could reach similar financial state - especially when considering long-term investments. Putting back 20-30% of one's income (assuming $50-70k) into a well managed portfolio in their early 20s brings in some significant retirement figures.

Unless I land some very high paying surgery job, I doubt I make the business case close. Like others have said, though, this isn't about the money. It's about doing something that will make me happy - something I can go home at night and feel like I've done something I can be proud of.
Click to expand...

Every person thinks that they can be that person who succeeds at a high level, but the truth is that very few will. Most people will hit a brickwall in their respective field. Medicine sets the floor very high which makes it extremely attractive.

Secondly, you can eschew the malpractice insurance by being employed by a hospital group.
 
I am 28 and I'm not in engineering or programming and make that (I work for Pfizer Oncology with a BA). Also, it's not reserved to only top performers in my field. Granted, I do live in the Bay Area, so I'd likely make somewhat less in other parts of the country.

Making 100k is really not that hard. What is very hard is finding something you are excited to wake up and do every day of your life!

LoLCareerGoals said:
100k @ 26 in engineering/programming? Possible, but only for the top performers in the field. You should compare those guys to medicine's specialists a couple of years out of residency.
Click to expand...
 
nonniesmile said:
... and the lost income under Obamacare ...
Click to expand...

Please explain what you mean, and where you are getting this. I'm not trying to be argumentative; it's something that I've heard from several people, but I have never been able to find anything that substantiates the claim at all.
 
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What do you expect people to say? We have no idea what the philosopher kings have in store for us and have little control -- or recourse -- either way. Suffice to say the future has looked brighter for medical providers...
 
abolt18 said:
The physicians I've spoken with have said the loss of income is in decreased reimbursements from Medicaid and Medicare treatments. I honestly don't know how all the business aspect of medicine works so I couldn't tell you what's changing that affects it, but they have said it's a big cut to their salary.


P.S. The "you're" situation was driving me crazy also. I'm glad someone pointed it out 😀
Click to expand...

This is true but primary care is supposed to be getting income increases. They are just shifting incentives around to make more people go into primary care.
 
So embarrassed about the grammar mistake. I should not post on SDN after two glasses of wine.
 
Well, you can always make some educated assumptions based on alternatives and run the PV of future earnings. It's not that hard - throw out some numbers.

Reasonable assumptions are going to support that MD's still are doing well financially compared to other professions - even considering the debt and forgone income. How long they maintain that advantage going forward is the big question.
 
OP, please do not post the same thread in multiple forums. Choose one forum and just post it once. I have merged your two threads together here.

To answer your question, my advice is that you not go to medical school. Financially, it is almost certainly not worth it, and the older you are, the less financial sense it makes to change careers to medicine. Whether it is worth it in the sense of personal fulfillment is in the eye of the beholder. From what you've posted, my guess is that it's not going to be worth it to you. There's nothing wrong with that; it's far better to realize it now than to realize it in five years when you're drowning in six figure debt.
 
nonniesmile said:
Considering the time and money required to get through medical school, meager backend residency pay, high liability insurance and the lost income under Obamacare:
Is an M.D. still worth it for a mid-life career changer, 30+?
Is the potential income loss over 8 years worth it in this economy?
What good is making 300k/yr if $200k/yr is handed over to insurance?
Why spend several years incurring debt and losing income, for an end goal salary equivalent to a nurse, accountant or computer programmer...all these attained with a 4 year education?

Please advise.
Click to expand...

For a better day to day lifestyle, more status, more money, focus your energy on getting into a really top ranked business school. Then if you really want to be in medicine you can go run a hospital or healthcare center, or even a nonprofit.

Most of the early and mid career physicians I know are upper middle class and working very hard (granted, it's a bit skewed toward people in academics, but only a bit), whereas the people who went to B school are posting Facebook posts from Fiji or the Maldives, and I'm positive they didn't work nearly as hard on trying to get into school, as they were the ones out partying while the premeds were studying orgo.

And I don't want to be too political or inflammatory, but if Obamacare is not to your liking, then you can focus on trying to follow in Romney's career footsteps. Business school has lots of people in their 30's.
 
alamo4 said:
For a better day to day lifestyle, more status, more money, focus your energy on getting into a really top ranked business school. Then if you really want to be in medicine you can go run a hospital or healthcare center, or even a nonprofit.

Most of the early and mid career physicians I know are upper middle class and working very hard (granted, it's a bit skewed toward people in academics, but only a bit), whereas the people who went to B school are posting Facebook posts from Fiji or the Maldives, and I'm positive they didn't work nearly as hard on trying to get into school, as they were the ones out partying while the premeds were studying orgo.

And I don't want to be too political or inflammatory, but if Obamacare is not to your liking, then you can focus on trying to follow in Romney's career footsteps. Business school has lots of people in their 30's.
Click to expand...

I think the "just go to B-school" argument is overplayed. An upper tier B school is a heavy investment and the odds that you are a filthy rich I-Banker or CEO are low. Your odds at nice earnings are still greater in medicine as it's very realistic to pull a 200k+ salary in any area (including low cost of living areas) of the country. Your average B-school guy isn't going to pull that off anywhere he/she likes and is likely in their late late 30s before they pull in that kind of cash and must live near a high cost of living metro area to command it.

Of course, I'm talking general rules, not anecdotes of B-school success stories. There are plenty of anecdotes of successful plastic surgeons, dermatologists etc. pulling in 7 figures to offset those - so let's call those a wash.

Also, let's not act like the high earners from B-school have a walk in the park lifestyle. The high earners typically spend several years working 70/80 hours week in a Wall Street like environment slaving away for the man at investment houses and consulting firms It's tough work and, in theory, you don't get the self-satisfaction you would in medicine helping people through their illness. Being a bond daddy or selling executives on long term strategy can make you feel like an empty soul...

Long though short, you probably have a higher earnings potential in finance if you are highly intelligent and have a smooth-operator personality. This is a pretty rare combo and most of the folks that go to B-school spend their lives in middle-management and may make it to executive level if they are lucky.

The top 5-10% of doctors may not earn as much as their business/finance counterparts, but if you want better odds at making nice money, being respected, having some autonomy, etc., medicine is still a great way to go. Of course, we could see drastic changes over the next decade or two, but that remains to be seen.
 
Not sure I agree with this. My undergrad tracks internal stats. At under 30, there are a lot of top tier grads that went to my undergrad making 200k+ (mostly in NY so I don't disagree with the low cost area part).

You can be very successful in anything you love to do and are good at. If you go into law wanting to be a doctor, you'll resent each day and hate it.

Pick something you love. If you haven't found it yet, it's ok. Take some time off. Last thing you want to be is stuck in a profession you hate. Money will come and money will go.

rollwithit said:
Your odds at nice earnings are still greater in medicine as it's very realistic to pull a 200k+ salary in any area (including low cost of living areas) of the country.
Click to expand...
 
Interestingly enough, I was reading in the Wall Street Journal/NY Times (?) yesterday about the anticipated shortage of doctors: by 2025, it is estimated (according to this article, I don't remember what the source is), that there will be a shortage of 100,000 doctors in the U.S.

I'm wondering how this will affect the future of physicians: Obviously, job security will be huge, but will the economic outlook improve? For example, will there be a chance of getting subsidized loans again? Will there be higher incentives for certain specs/locations (higher than already are)? Higher pay :laugh:? Anything to offset the shortage? More residencies?

Very interesting - what the future will bring. The context of the article was about the shortage under Obamacare.
 
wookiewookie said:
Interestingly enough, I was reading in the Wall Street Journal/NY Times (?) yesterday about the anticipated shortage of doctors: by 2025, it is estimated (according to this article, I don't remember what the source is), that there will be a shortage of 100,000 doctors in the U.S.

I'm wondering how this will affect the future of physicians: Obviously, job security will be huge, but will the economic outlook improve? For example, will there be a chance of getting subsidized loans again? Will there be higher incentives for certain specs/locations (higher than already are)? Higher pay :laugh:? Anything to offset the shortage? More residencies?

Very interesting - what the future will bring. The context of the article was about the shortage under Obamacare.
Click to expand...

Doctor Shortage Likely to Worsen With Health Law http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/29/h...many-us-communities.html?_r=3&ref=todayspaper
 
nonniesmile said:
Considering the time and money required to get through medical school, meager backend residency pay, high liability insurance and the lost income under Obamacare:
Is an M.D. still worth it for a mid-life career changer, 30+?
Is the potential income loss over 8 years worth it in this economy?
What good is making 300k/yr if $200k/yr is handed over to insurance?
Why spend several years incurring debt and losing income, for an end goal salary equivalent to a nurse, accountant or computer programmer...all these attained with a 4 year education?

Please advise.
Click to expand...

I disagree with all the doom and gloom BUT the reason why pre-med students make the sacrifice when the end salary is "equivilent to a nurse, accountant or computer programmer" is because we would NEVER want to be a computer programmer or an accountant. Im in sales right now and I'd NEVER want to do this for one more second than I had to. It's not all about money, its about having a passion and enjoying your life. And for me personally being a computer programmer or a nurse or an accountant wouldn't do it for me.
 
I've thought a lot about the topic of this thread. I'm a nontrad and will enter medical school at 28. Financially, is it irresponsible to enter medical school at my age?

I feel like I'm in an odd position. I feel like I'm pretty smart but don't have a lot of career options. I work as a lab tech making ~10.50/hr and my previous job was in the armed services [incidentally I worked as a corpsman and loved my job. I always dreamed of some day becoming a doctor].

Taken together I'm not exactly Mr. Career budding with opportunity.... heh. I think being a physician would be very satisfying to me but sometimes the constant media attention that physicians catch, which is often times very political, and mention of 'cuts' and 'doom & gloom' gets me down. If I can keep my debt @ 100k would medical school be a wise investment for me?
 
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@ pseudo,

I'm the same age as you and often worry about the same things....however, I think if the debt can be kept relatively reasonable, given that demand is and will be much greater than the supply (by the time we are practicing), and if we can live below our means for a few years to pay off the debt, I think it is a fine decision. I think that great job security, enjoying what you do and having a job that matters equates to a sense of freedom that is not found in many other fields.
 
I guess you're right. It all comes down to opportunity cost if looking at it all from a strictly financial point of view. I don't have any connections that could land me in a job that pays much better than my job that I have now. Even if I really worked at it, in this economy, I will be lucky to reach the 40k mark a few years from now. In contrast, If I get in medical school without a hitch I'll be 32 by the time I'm done and get to work towards a career as a medical doctor.

Given my options it looks like medical school is the best thing for me to do.

wookiewookie said:
@ pseudo,

I'm the same age as you and often worry about the same things....however, I think if the debt can be kept relatively reasonable, given that demand is and will be much greater than the supply (by the time we are practicing), and if we can live below our means for a few years to pay off the debt, I think it is a fine decision. I think that great job security, enjoying what you do and having a job that matters equates to a sense of freedom that is not found in many other fields.
Click to expand...
 
rollwithit said:
I think the "just go to B-school" argument is overplayed. An upper tier B school is a heavy investment and the odds that you are a filthy rich I-Banker or CEO are low. Your odds at nice earnings are still greater in medicine as it's very realistic to pull a 200k+ salary in any area (including low cost of living areas) of the country. Your average B-school guy isn't going to pull that off anywhere he/she likes and is likely in their late late 30s before they pull in that kind of cash and must live near a high cost of living metro area to command it.

Of course, I'm talking general rules, not anecdotes of B-school success stories. There are plenty of anecdotes of successful plastic surgeons, dermatologists etc. pulling in 7 figures to offset those - so let's call those a wash.

Also, let's not act like the high earners from B-school have a walk in the park lifestyle. The high earners typically spend several years working 70/80 hours week in a Wall Street like environment slaving away for the man at investment houses and consulting firms It's tough work and, in theory, you don't get the self-satisfaction you would in medicine helping people through their illness. Being a bond daddy or selling executives on long term strategy can make you feel like an empty soul...

Long though short, you probably have a higher earnings potential in finance if you are highly intelligent and have a smooth-operator personality. This is a pretty rare combo and most of the folks that go to B-school spend their lives in middle-management and may make it to executive level if they are lucky.

The top 5-10% of doctors may not earn as much as their business/finance counterparts, but if you want better odds at making nice money, being respected, having some autonomy, etc., medicine is still a great way to go. Of course, we could see drastic changes over the next decade or two, but that remains to be seen.
Click to expand...


Top 5-10% is very very very elite company!! The doctors I know all make 140-220k/yr working at hospitals the only ones that make really good money own their own practice or have jumped ship to a "urgent care" setting.

I personally have no urge to be on the business side I just want to practice and make a difference I would do it for no pay increase over my 88K now......I just need to get into medical school!!!!:luck:
 
Salary < 200k seems fairly low for physicians as the average hospitalist earned >200k last year. Are you sure your numbers are accurate? It's funny the difference in salary ranges you hear about doctors. Some say physicians earn 90k. Some say they earn 200k. Some say they earn 300k. Some say this is all after malpractice. Others say these are before malpractice. I get the sense alot of people are misinformed or there is a HUGE range even within specialties.




RNNPMD said:
Top 5-10% is very very very elite company!! The doctors I know all make 140-220k/yr working at hospitals the only ones that make really good money own their own practice or have jumped ship to a "urgent care" setting.

I personally have no urge to be on the business side I just want to practice and make a difference I would do it for no pay increase over my 88K now......I just need to get into medical school!!!!:luck:
Click to expand...
 
pseudosquam said:
Salary < 200k seems fairly low for physicians as the average hospitalist earned >200k last year. Are you sure your numbers are accurate? It's funny the difference in salary ranges you hear about doctors. Some say physicians earn 90k. Some say they earn 200k. Some say they earn 300k. Some say this is all after malpractice. Others say these are before malpractice. I get the sense alot of people are misinformed or there is a HUGE range even within specialties.
Click to expand...

Both primary care the other physiatrist just breaks 200K or so he says. The two ER guys I know are making $$$$$ they opened a urgent care you would think they are giving away free Ipads or something....This is in the south...
 
Interesting about urgent care.

RNNPMD said:
Both primary care the other physiatrist just breaks 200K or so he says. The two ER guys I know are making $$$$$ they opened a urgent care you would think they are giving away free Ipads or something....This is in the south...
Click to expand...
 
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