EM PD - Ask Me Anything

[gamerEMdoc]

Crossed the 1/2 way point with interviews. Just finished a ranked waitlist for cancellation season. Can't believe we are already at this point. I hope everyone feeling a bit more comfortable mid-Nov than they did in October anyways.

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[Doots321]

I apologize if this has been mentioned, but I haven't been able to find it in this thread. How do you look at a candidate who is couple's matching with a significant other who is not specializing in EM? Is this something to mention during the interview? Does it in any way lessen the chance of matching your program? What if said significant other has below average board scores but is applying for a less competitive residency like Peds or FM? Thanks again!

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I apologize if this has been mentioned, but I haven't been able to find it in this thread. How do you look at a candidate who is couple's matching with a significant other who is not specializing in EM? Is this something to mention during the interview? Does it in any way lessen the chance of matching your program? What if said significant other has below average board scores but is applying for a less competitive residency like Peds or FM? Thanks again!

Good question, I don't think that's been asked before. I don't really factor the significant other into the score at all. I do typically ask about it, mainly to see what the the other party is matching into. If its a residency that we don't have, then it's obviously unlikely that we are going to match the EM resident. But, if its one of our other residencies (IM, FP, Gen Surgery), then I can check with the other program to see what they think of the other party. It's very reassuring if there's a candidate that we think very highly of, and the other residency feels the same about the significant other.

None of that factors into the candidates rank score or my opinion of the EM candidate, but moreso just my personal interest of trying to predict how I think the match is going to go down and who will match with us.

 

[emthrowaway13579]

Hi, thank you for taking your time to answer all our questions! You mentioned in an above post that at the end, the faculty give input in terms of moving a candidate up or down a list. What new information are they basing that opinion on? Do post-interview communications (thank you notes, second look, etc) factor in? And how does hearing "I'm going to rank you #1" factor in to your rank list?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Hi, thank you for taking your time to answer all our questions! You mentioned in an above post that at the end, the faculty give input in terms of moving a candidate up or down a list. What new information are they basing that opinion on? Do post-interview communications (thank you notes, second look, etc) factor in? And how does hearing "I'm going to rank you #1" factor in to your rank list?

Well, the moving up/down mainly has to do with the fact that no scoring system is perfect. While I'll stand by my scoring system any day to put people around where they should be on the list, there are outliers you can't account for. Someone with decent sloes, decent grades, great board scores, but in the interview is rude and obnoxious.... they may still have an ok app score because of all the other stuff, but you are going to move that person way down, or drop them off the list. Or conversely, someone with average grades, below average board scores, one above average sloe, but the second is from your rotation, which they killed it and did amazing and you thought they were an absolute all star... that person will likely move up just because you are going to weigh your personal experience with them above what the app score spits out. But for the most part, there isn't a ton of movement drastically either way, more just special exceptions here and there.

Post-interview communication doesn't factor in to how I consider a candidate. Believe me, its encouraging to hear when someone tells us how much they'd like to match with us, but I take it with a grain of salt since I've been lied to before by students on multiple occasions. I would never rank a student higher just because they claim they will "rank me first". That's not how the match algorithm works. You rank the candidates in the order you want them, how they rank their programs shouldn't factor into your list. To do otherwise is foolish and a misunderstanding of the algorithm.

 

[Sunna12]

@gamerEMdoc when a PD has a faculty member reach out to an applicant to answer additional questions in their particular area of interest after an interview, does this indicate they will be ranking the applicant and want to answer as many questions as possible? Or would a program just try to answer any questions irregardless of how they will be ranking the applicant? Thank you!

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Chances are if the program is reaching out to you, they probably have you at least in their top half of candidates if not higher. Every program does this differently. Some actually do reach out to every candidate. Some just their top candidates. I'd imagine there are some that don't reach out at all. So it's tough to say honestly.

 

[lucid_leprechaun]

@gamerEMdoc when a PD has a faculty member reach out to an applicant to answer additional questions in their particular area of interest after an interview, does this indicate they will be ranking the applicant and want to answer as many questions as possible? Or would a program just try to answer any questions irregardless of how they will be ranking the applicant? Thank you!

Points off for irregardless.
I didn’t want to but the internet made me do it.

 

[nobaddays]

With reference to fit/personality being in your "Tier 1" deciding factors, what types of personality traits do you find common among good EM docs? Obviously everyone is different, and this is kind of a question framed in generalities. Do you notice any trends towards any certain traits?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

With reference to fit/personality being in your "Tier 1" deciding factors, what types of personality traits do you find common among good EM docs? Obviously everyone is different, and this is kind of a question framed in generalities. Do you notice any trends towards any certain traits?

Sure. People who are overbearing and have no sense of it, people who lie, people who are really arrogant, can't work easily with staff, etc. Those are easy ones to try to avoid.

Otherwise, you're mainly looking for people who are down to earth, enjoy working in a team atmosphere, good sense of humor, etc. If you are going to get your face kicked in at 2am some night with a swarm of patients, you want to do so with someone you genuinely enjoy working with as a person.

 

[nobaddays]

Sure. People who are overbearing and have no sense of it, people who lie, people who are really arrogant, can't work easily with staff, etc. Those are easy ones to try to avoid.

Otherwise, you're mainly looking for people who are down to earth, enjoy working in a team atmosphere, good sense of humor, etc. If you are going to get your face kicked in at 2am some night with a swarm of patients, you want to do so with someone you genuinely enjoy working with as a person.

Haha nice, thanks!

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Happy Thanksgiving everyone! I hope you all get the chance to take a break from application season and have a day off or two and get to celebrate a little bit.

 

[Heol]

Hello attending,

1) I am curious of how many spots down do a typical community program match at. For example, if a community program interviews 80 applicants for 8 spots and ranks 70 ppl, how likely is it for someone who ranks at #60 by the program to match there?
2) I was told that I am ranked to match by one program. If that program usually matches within their first 40 ranks, am I expected to be ranked within that range?
3) When an applicant gets off a waitlist and interviews in January, does that mean that applicant is less desirable? Sorry that this has been asked before. However, it seems to me that because I was on the waitlist and only got the interview after someone cancelled. It feels like I am just a backup to them.

Thank you so much.

 

[southerndoc]

1. Program dependent.
2. If a program RTM's you and you rank them #1, then you should have a 100% chance of matching if the NRMP works as intended. However, nothing in life is a guarantee.
3. No, it just means they didn't have a spot available at the time. We only have limited spots available for interviews. They get filled as applications get reviewed. Even if 80% of the applicants are good, we can't interview 80% of the applicants when you're getting 500-1500 applications. It's just not possible. People who get offered a wait list interview are no less desirable than someone who was offered an interview. The backups aren't waitlisted because they're so far down the line that we know we will never get to them.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Been following this thread fairly closely, so apologies if this has already been asked. Does the selection committee really look at social media accounts? On everyone? Or only those at the top of their rank list? Seems burdensome and low yield.

I don't routinely, but I occasionally do google people if they make a claim to have done something interesting in their past. For instance, if they say they were a college starting QB, or if they were on some reality show, were in some band, etc. I'll google them to verify they aren't just making stuff up.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Good questions...

1) I am curious of how many spots down do a typical community program match at. For example, if a community program interviews 80 applicants for 8 spots and ranks 70 ppl, how likely is it for someone who ranks at #60 by the program to match there?

As southern doc mentioned above, this is likely program dependent, though a good generalization is that most programs match into the middle of their list no matter who they are. Even the most desirable programs don't always match their top people, because their top people are the best of the best students, and are also the top people at other great programs lists too. I'm not sure the data exists anywhere that says exactly where the distribution of candidates come from on most programs lists. All I can tell you is about my own program. We are a community EM residency program in a rural location. Most of our match list typically comes from the top 1/3 of our list, with sometimes a few from the middle. I don't know that we've gone into the bottom 1/3 of our list since I've been there.

2) I was told that I am ranked to match by one program. If that program usually matches within their first 40 ranks, am I expected to be ranked within that range?

Ranked to match typically means that you are a guaranteed match there should you choose to be. Meaning that if a program has 8 spots, then to be ranked to match, you are in one of the 1-8 ranks.

3) When an applicant gets off a waitlist and interviews in January, does that mean that applicant is less desirable? Sorry that this has been asked before. However, it seems to me that because I was on the waitlist and only got the interview after someone cancelled. It feels like I am just a backup to them.

No. In fact there are people on my waitlist now that are better candidates than some of the people who are interviewing. You don't look at 800 applications at once and decide which are the best 80 to interview. You grant interviews on a rolling basis, first looking at the people that rotated, then looking at some geographic factors and schools you do well at matching from. And then you expand out from there. That means some of the people earlier that got through may not be as good of a candidate as someone whose app you got to later when the spots are all dried up. I have people on my waitlist right now that are absolutely stellar candidates. Granted, my expectation is when we get cancellations, most of those will decline the invite because they are great candidates and are already interviewed out by that point. But you never ever know.

 

[sunnyk123]

@gamerEMdoc

I am at a DO school and I have the opportunity to do a "fellowship" year in between year 2 and 3. This would give me the opportunity to teach and do some research. I would get a full year of tuition paid for by the school + a small stipend. Do you know how residencies would view this?

I just hope that it is clear to residencies that I am choosing to do this. I am worried that if they just glance over my residency app they might see that it took 5 years to graduate without seeing that one of those years was a chosen fellowship year in which I was paid to work for the school.

Thank you!

 

[gamerEMdoc]

@gamerEMdoc

I am at a DO school and I have the opportunity to do a "fellowship" year in between year 2 and 3. This would give me the opportunity to teach and do some research. I would get a full year of tuition paid for by the school + a small stipend. Do you know how residencies would view this?

I just hope that it is clear to residencies that I am choosing to do this. I am worried that if they just glance over my residency app they might see that it took 5 years to graduate without seeing that one of those years was a chosen fellowship year in which I was paid to work for the school.

Thank you!

I dont think anyone would look at that as a negative thing.

 

[ShowtimeKaner88]

@gamerEMdoc

I am at a DO school and I have the opportunity to do a "fellowship" year in between year 2 and 3. This would give me the opportunity to teach and do some research. I would get a full year of tuition paid for by the school + a small stipend. Do you know how residencies would view this?

I just hope that it is clear to residencies that I am choosing to do this. I am worried that if they just glance over my residency app they might see that it took 5 years to graduate without seeing that one of those years was a chosen fellowship year in which I was paid to work for the school.

Thank you!

I did a similar program at my school and I’m currently applying/interviewing in EM. Assuming you’re talking about an OMM fellowship, feel free to PM me if you’d like to talk more about pros and cons and how it’s been viewed.

 

[JennyIgotyourNumber]

In the current interview season, allopathic applicant with decent Step 1 and Step 2 CK. Lots of good interviews, so feel like a solid applicant. Due to some scheduling issues, taking Step 2 CS this week. Score expected around Feb 10.

1) When do you think programs "finish/finalize" their rank lists? Wondering if that might happen prior the score being available thus my having taken myself out of the running with some programs.

2) Advice on "navigating" this challenge, perhaps I should keep in close touch with the Coordinator at programs of particular interest so they know the score will be available prior to rank list certification?

3) Do you think any programs rank applicants without a CS score?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

1) When do you think programs "finish/finalize" their rank lists? Wondering if that might happen prior the score being available thus my having taken myself out of the running with some programs.

Early to mid February, so right around the time you are getting your score back.

2) Advice on "navigating" this challenge, perhaps I should keep in close touch with the Coordinator at programs of particular interest so they know the score will be available prior to rank list certification?

It may not be a bad idea to reach out to the coordinators at your top programs at the beginning of Feb to reassert your interest and let them know that you are awaiting your step 2 cs score and should get it prior to rank list certification, so if they require it to rank, you can forward the info to them in the coming weeks as soon as you get the score.

3) Do you think any programs rank applicants without a CS score?

We don't, by that point I've already made my decision on most candidates about where I think they stand. I'm not typically going back at the last second and checking to make sure someone has taken step cs before I rank them, if they hadn't already taken it prior to interview. I just don't really care about the CS that much. Now, if someone only had one SLOE, or if they hadn't taken (or posted) step 2 ck yet, then I make a note at the time of the interview to go back and followup later on those. I typically look during Christmas week at all the flagged apps that had missing data and update them then.

 

[sdhere1234]

I just had a quick question regarding SLOEs.

Do you rank students based on all students you've interacted with in the past? Or just based off those in the current rotation?

For instance if you had to write 3 SLOEs would it be possible for all 3 of those students to receive top 1/3 if they all excelled during their aways, or do you have to compare the 3 to each other, forcing you to give only one of those students top 1/3. Thanks.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I just had a quick question regarding SLOEs.

Do you rank students based on all students you've interacted with in the past? Or just based off those in the current rotation?

For instance if you had to write 3 SLOEs would it be possible for all 3 of those students to receive top 1/3 if they all excelled during their aways, or do you have to compare the 3 to each other, forcing you to give only one of those students top 1/3. Thanks.

You aren't just being compared to the few students that are with you. All could be top 1/3s, all could be low 1/3s, or you could have a mix of any distribution in a given small group. The SLOE author is comparing the student to their student peers from the previous academic year (question 1 and 3) as well as all of their peers that rotated this current year (questions 2 and 4). See below for more details.

There are four areas of the SLOE when it comes to ranking, each is a little different. There are other areas of the SLOE as well for things like describing the rotation, noting which month of EM it was for the student, and a comments section to discuss some of the rankings below.

The 3rd and fourth are the most important, and are typically similar and most programs answer them the same although sometimes there is variation if there is a big change in the competitiveness of the candidates that rotate from one year to another. These last two are the parts where people refer to their sloe as being top 10, top 1/3, etc. The two parts of the SLOE (1 and 3) that compare you to students of the previous year pull distribution data in from the previous academic year automatically as the eSLOE system compiles the data from the previous year and automatically inserts it for you. Here are the four ranking parts:

1. What EM grade was given. Choices are Honors, HP, Pass, Low Pass, Fail. There is then a grade distribution that is pulled in showing the number of students you wrote SLOEs on the previous year and the percent you gave in each grade category. This way, programs know how prestigious a grade like honors or HP is at your rotation, or how meaningless it is (ie places that give 90% honors).

2. Qualifications for EM. Compare the applicant to other EM applicants/peers. This is a series of 7 questions about things like level of interest, work ethic, ability to work with a team, ddx and plans, etc. You are rated in all 7 categories as above peers, at level of peers, or below peers.

3. Compared to other EM residency candidates you have recommended in the last academic year, this candidate is in the: Top 10%, Top 1/3, Mid 1/3, Low 1/3. This is also followed by the distribution of all the candidates you put in each category the last academic year showing last year how many you ranked as Top 10, top 1/3, mid 1/3, and low 1/3.

4. How highly would you estimate the candidate will reside on your rank list? Top 10%, Top 1/3, Mid 1/3, Low 1/3, Unlikely to be on our rank list. This is probably the most important question when combined with the question above. This question is comparing you to the cohort of your peers for this year, asking where the program anticipates ranking you.

Typically questions 3 and 4 agree with eachother, since there isn't that big of a difference year to year in terms of the quality of the students rotating as a whole.

I hope that helps!

 

[sdhere1234]

I hope that helps!

Extremely helpful, thank you so much.

 

[TheKMan1]

So Dr. Peter DeBlieux from LSU has written this advice for applicants about what to do for their number one program, and he says to ask them two questions:

"How would an applicant know if the program was really interested in them?"

"If an applicant is very interested in your program how should they communicate this?"

This seems kind of too aggressive to be asking a PD or unlikely to get any clear answer. Thoughts?

1) Applicant ranks program high and matches there

2) Applicant ranks program high

My opinion is that there's no need for either party to show their cards. The match system works great.

 

[amonty144]

@gamerEMdoc Hello, hope you are well! I had a question regarding showing interest in your #1 program. What are some ways that you can let them know they are your true #1 before rank list are finalized etc. An attending at a different program once told me that if I consider them my #1 then I should have my school advisor call the PD and let them know that I'll be ranking them #1 and I was serious about it etc. Is that pretty common/effective or nothing really matters as much anymore? If that is a good way to go about it, who would be an ideal person to make the call i.e. school's PD or APD or any advisor?

Thank you again for your help!!

 

[AlvinKamara]

What is EM APD?

Sent from my XT1650 using SDN mobile

Emergency Medicine Assistant (to the) Program Director

Basically, they’re deputies to the Program Director, who’s the head of a residency program.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[deleted709753]

How important is it to have leadership experience? I have okay grades, average EM step 1 (235), and probably average to above average research. But I have no leadership experience. I was thinking about applying for a position like medical student council for EMRA- a national organization. Would that be high yield and a good use of my extra time to doing something like that? Or should I not worry about it and just focus on clinical performance?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

What is EM APD?

Emergency Medicine Assistant (to the) Program Director

Ouch.

It stands for Associate Program Director in my case. The hierarchy in academics program leadership goes Assistant PD < Associate PD < PD

Not all programs have both an assistant and an associate. Some just have one. ACGME mandates you have one APD (assistant or associate) and then both if you are of a certain sized residency.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

This seems kind of too aggressive to be asking a PD or unlikely to get any clear answer. Thoughts?

My opinion is that there's no need for either party to show their cards. The match system works great.

@gamerEMdoc Hello, hope you are well! I had a question regarding showing interest in your #1 program. What are some ways that you can let them know they are your true #1 before rank list are finalized etc. An attending at a different program once told me that if I consider them my #1 then I should have my school advisor call the PD and let them know that I'll be ranking them #1 and I was serious about it etc. Is that pretty common/effective or nothing really matters as much anymore? If that is a good way to go about it, who would be an ideal person to make the call i.e. school's PD or APD or any advisor?

Thank you again for your help!!

There is no standard way of letting a program know they are your number one, and its not necessary you do so. If you feel compelled to do so you could just choose to email the PD directly. Some programs contact some of their match list via phone or email leading up to the match, some don’t. If your number one program does contact you to tell you they are planning on ranking you highly, that’s a logical time to share your intention to rank them #1.

Understand though, telling a program this shouldn’t change their opinion of you. If they think you are a mediocre candidate, they aren’t going to rank you highly just because you told them you want to be there, anymore than a program at the bottom of your list that emails you to tell you they thought you were a great candidate is all of a sudden going to jump high up on your list. Rank programs in the order you want to rank them. Programs should rank candidates in the order they want them. That’s all there is to it.

Either side that influences their list based on what the other side is saying is doing the Match incorrectly. Just rank them in the order you want them.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

How important is it to have leadership experience? I have okay grades, average EM step 1 (235), and probably average to above average research. But I have no leadership experience. I was thinking about applying for a position like medical student council for EMRA- a national organization. Would that be high yield and a good use of my extra time to doing something like that? Or should I not worry about it and just focus on clinical performance?

Do research if you want to do research, or if your school demands it. Or if you want to go to a program that really places a value on research. Do leadership if you want to be a leader in something. Don’t just do it to pad your resume. It doesn’t make that big of a difference in the application. Stuff like this makes for a nice tie breaker when comparing otherwise similar applicants, but otherwise shouldn’t make or break your application either way.

 

[JennyIgotyourNumber]

On the interview trail, twice I've been told by residents that how the residents view the applicant has a "huge" impact on where they are ranked. I imagine in the following 2 obvious ways, it can have a big impact:
1) If you make an inappropriate/rude remark, get drunk/stupid at the resident/applicant social, or otherwise act unprofessionally
2) If you rotated there, of course resident evals will have a significant impact on how the department views you, positively or negatively

Other than these examples, the only input the residents might have of an applicant would come from brief chats interview day and from the social event the night before or after the interview. Does an applicant who is very interested in the program need to be "working the room" to ensure making an impression on as many residents as possible? This doesn't sound "right" to me, since for those who didn't (1) do something unprofessional or (2) rotate there, the dominant factors for ranking would seem to be something like you have posted many times e.g. aspects the program leadership values + the impression made in interview day.

So, for those that didn't rotate, and that didn't do something unprofessional, how much does resident input factor into ranking?

 

[SpacemanSpifff]

On the interview trail, twice I've been told by residents that how the residents view the applicant has a "huge" impact on where they are ranked. I imagine in the following 2 obvious ways, it can have a big impact:
1) If you make an inappropriate/rude remark, get drunk/stupid at the resident/applicant social, or otherwise act unprofessionally
2) If you rotated there, of course resident evals will have a significant impact on how the department views you, positively or negatively

Other than these examples, the only input the residents might have of an applicant would come from brief chats interview day and from the social event the night before or after the interview. Does an applicant who is very interested in the program need to be "working the room" to ensure making an impression on as many residents as possible? This doesn't sound "right" to me, since for those who didn't (1) do something unprofessional or (2) rotate there, the dominant factors for ranking would seem to be something like you have posted many times e.g. aspects the program leadership values + the impression made in interview day.

So, for those that didn't rotate, and that didn't do something unprofessional, how much does resident input factor into ranking?

Resident input will be variably valued at each program. Some may have residents participate directly in the ROL process. Our PD will take resident feedback into account, but that input will rarely make or break an application, unless it is particularly egregious. As you pointed out, applicants who rotate at a program have many more opportunities to make a positive impression, which is why if you have a particular interest in a program it is can by very useful to try to secure a rotation at that program.

I wouldn't worry too much about swinging your potential ranking through the residents. Just be yourself, be professional, and try to find your fit.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

On the interview trail, twice I've been told by residents that how the residents view the applicant has a "huge" impact on where they are ranked. I imagine in the following 2 obvious ways, it can have a big impact:
1) If you make an inappropriate/rude remark, get drunk/stupid at the resident/applicant social, or otherwise act unprofessionally
2) If you rotated there, of course resident evals will have a significant impact on how the department views you, positively or negatively

Other than these examples, the only input the residents might have of an applicant would come from brief chats interview day and from the social event the night before or after the interview. Does an applicant who is very interested in the program need to be "working the room" to ensure making an impression on as many residents as possible? This doesn't sound "right" to me, since for those who didn't (1) do something unprofessional or (2) rotate there, the dominant factors for ranking would seem to be something like you have posted many times e.g. aspects the program leadership values + the impression made in interview day.

So, for those that didn't rotate, and that didn't do something unprofessional, how much does resident input factor into ranking?

I wouldnt worry about it. Its more that if the residents really like or dislike someone that rotated, it has a huge impact. They may want to bump someone up or down a bit from their interaction at the dinner but its not a huge change unless as stated someone does something really egregious.

 

[boomshaketheroom]

On the interview trail, twice I've been told by residents that how the residents view the applicant has a "huge" impact on where they are ranked. I imagine in the following 2 obvious ways, it can have a big impact:
1) If you make an inappropriate/rude remark, get drunk/stupid at the resident/applicant social, or otherwise act unprofessionally
2) If you rotated there, of course resident evals will have a significant impact on how the department views you, positively or negatively

Other than these examples, the only input the residents might have of an applicant would come from brief chats interview day and from the social event the night before or after the interview. Does an applicant who is very interested in the program need to be "working the room" to ensure making an impression on as many residents as possible? This doesn't sound "right" to me, since for those who didn't (1) do something unprofessional or (2) rotate there, the dominant factors for ranking would seem to be something like you have posted many times e.g. aspects the program leadership values + the impression made in interview day.

So, for those that didn't rotate, and that didn't do something unprofessional, how much does resident input factor into ranking?

Like others have said, if its just the interview the only thing that can really hurt you is standing out in a bad way. If no one notices you at a social event its fine, your interview is the part that matters. Some places have residents who interview you so obviously those opinions matter.

The other way residents can impact you is during aways, and it isnt only resident evals that can affect you. A resident who meets you and doesn't work with you can also play a role if they really like you or really dont. If multiple residents who meet you but dont work with you like you, that helps your chances, if they really don't like you, that can sink you chances in a hurry. I guess its late in the cycle for people applying now, but its always good to assume everything you do on an away is part of one big interview.

 

[ski89]

Hi @gamerEMdoc .. So I was at an interview recently and was told that one of my SLOEs, which is from a highly respected program, was a middle third SLOE. I had suspected this for a while given the types of interviews I have been getting (or rather those I have not been getting). The fact that the SLOE is middle third isn't what bothers me so much, it's that the program gave me every indication that my performance during my rotation was in the top 1/3 - And I used this information in formulating my list of programs to apply. At the end of my rotation my official evaluation stated that I was in the top 1/3 of rotators and I received comments to seem to match that such as "one of the best medical students I have worked with" and "we should actively recruit him". Not only am I at a loss as to why I was given a middle third SLOE but I am rather frustrated that my evaluation apparently misrepresented my performance and caused me to misjudge my competitiveness for certain programs.

My question for you is.. Is it even appropriate to contact the program and respectfully inquire about the apparent discrepency? Part of me thinks its mute at this point in the game but I just wanted to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

 

[Rekt]

Hi @gamerEMdoc .. So I was at an interview recently and was told that one of my SLOEs, which is from a highly respected program, was a middle third SLOE. I had suspected this for a while given the types of interviews I have been getting (or rather those I have not been getting). The fact that the SLOE is middle third isn't what bothers me so much, it's that the program gave me every indication that my performance during my rotation was in the top 1/3 - And I used this information in formulating my list of programs to apply. At the end of my rotation my official evaluation stated that I was in the top 1/3 of rotators and I received comments to seem to match that such as "one of the best medical students I have worked with" and "we should actively recruit him". Not only am I at a loss as to why I was given a middle third SLOE but I am rather frustrated that my evaluation apparently misrepresented my performance and caused me to misjudge my competitiveness for certain programs.

My question for you is.. Is it even appropriate to contact the program and respectfully inquire about the apparent discrepency? Part of me thinks its mute at this point in the game but I just wanted to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

Jesus no. This is so incredibly common. Everyone is the best medical student they worked with and they'd love to have you at their residency. Never put stock in a single thing any faculty ever says.

 

[ski89]

Jesus no. This is so incredibly common. Everyone is the best medical student they worked with and they'd love to have you at their residency. Never put stock in a single thing any faculty ever says.

I hear you and I would be inclined to agree with you, but what I am talking about is I think a little bit different. My official evaluation placed me in the "top third", not in the faculty/resident comments but in the actual grade.. Thats why i'm so confused.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Hi @gamerEMdoc .. So I was at an interview recently and was told that one of my SLOEs, which is from a highly respected program, was a middle third SLOE. I had suspected this for a while given the types of interviews I have been getting (or rather those I have not been getting). The fact that the SLOE is middle third isn't what bothers me so much, it's that the program gave me every indication that my performance during my rotation was in the top 1/3 - And I used this information in formulating my list of programs to apply. At the end of my rotation my official evaluation stated that I was in the top 1/3 of rotators and I received comments to seem to match that such as "one of the best medical students I have worked with" and "we should actively recruit him". Not only am I at a loss as to why I was given a middle third SLOE but I am rather frustrated that my evaluation apparently misrepresented my performance and caused me to misjudge my competitiveness for certain programs.

My question for you is.. Is it even appropriate to contact the program and respectfully inquire about the apparent discrepency? Part of me thinks its mute at this point in the game but I just wanted to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

Being a top 1/3 on rotation may not mean you'll be on the top 1/3 of their rank list. Let me explain. Let's say you rotate somewhere and do pretty well, and are truly one of the top 1/3 in terms of grades they give out. You have to realize that the students that rotate are only a small percentage of the people that interview at a program. So lets say you were clinically a top 1/3 on rotation, but this place routinely interviews people with two top 10 SLOEs and top tier board scores. Or maybe its a place that highly values research and the rest of your application doesn't support them ranking you in the top 1/3. Or maybe they value board scores heavily and your boards put you more into the middle of their list. Regardless, this happens. Sometimes students grade well clinically, then the program sees the rest of your application and thinks, well, they were good clinically, but there is this thing on the app that is going to knock them down, some red flag, etc. So, while you may have been one of the top 1/3 of students that rotated that year, that doesn't mean you'll necessarily be in the top 1/3 of their rank list once they know more about your whole application. The SLOE asks both questions, though programs put more emphasis on the "where will you anticipate ranking this student".

By the way, it goes both ways. I've had students that I've given grades or SLOEs out that said one thing, only to wind up ranking them much higher when you see the rest of their application. Sometimes people just don't stand out in one month, but do great elsewhere. You have to look at the entirety of the application when deciding where to rank someone. You can't just say, well they were the 10th best student out of 30 students this year, so they get ranked 10th. There may be another 70 people you interviewed, and other application factors that come to light after the rotation all come into play.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Everyone is the best medical student they worked with and they'd love to have you at their residency.

Well I agree that this is more common that I'd like it to be, but not everyone gives fake praise like this. If I write someone is the best, or one of the best, students of the year, they are basically in the top 10 of our rank list unless it later comes to light they have some horrible secret they had been hiding about their application.

This is also why a "group SLOE" where all the faculty or a core group of faculty are involved in doling out the SLOE rankings, as opposed to going with one persons opinion, is so important. When you leave it up to one person, they almost always make the evaluation too glowing, and don't factor in the potential negative opinions of other faculty. It's always better to have as many voices involved in the process so its a collective experience where people who have been supervising for some time can come together and really hash this out. It leads to way more accurate evaluations of people.

 

[Mat the coolcat]

Got ghosted this interview season by one of the places I did an away rotation and got a SLOE at. Nothing but positive feedback on the rotation, and still in contact with one of the residents there. I had several glowing moments in procedures and didactics, and was well liked by the staff and residents. While I somewhat respect them not giving rotators a false sense of importance just for the sake of rotating, I also don't understand why they wouldn't give someone a shot with a decent application, who vibed great with their crew, and worked their ass off.

I was in constant contact with the PD before ERAS season for the SLOE, and heard nothing from them since...how convenient...

Is it acceptable to ask why they chose not to interview me after the match? I'm kind of over the lack of transparency there is in this process.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Is it acceptable to ask why they chose not to interview me after the match?

I think it is, if you don't match. If you do match somewhere, then it just looks like sour grapes. But if you don't match, then their insight of why they didn't interview could be very valuable for reapplication purposes.

 

[amonty144]

@gamerEMdoc another question if you are free . Is it valuable to do a second look at a program you are really interested in like top 2? Not really for my benefit but to show the program that I'm really considering them? I think it probably doesn't change your spot on a program's rank list but some residents who have matched at certain program have done second looks so was just wondering?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I don't think it changes much at 99% of programs. A second look should only be for your benefit, to go back to a place you didn't get a chance to rotate at but really liked during the interview, to make sure that the ED, faculty, residents reflect upon how the program is presented during interview day.

 

[Mat the coolcat]

I think it is, if you don't match. If you do match somewhere, then it just looks like sour grapes. But if you don't match, then their insight of why they didn't interview could be very valuable for reapplication purposes.

Sour grapes is very accurate haha. Okay thank you!

 

[MegaBerryAtropine]

Interview season is almost over but I just had a lingering question. Does your SLOE include the grade (in a box or the comments) you got on your clerkship exam (ex: SAEM, NBME..)?

 

[Waterlover]

Interview season is almost over but I just had a lingering question. Does your SLOE include the grade (in a box or the comments) you got on your clerkship exam (ex: SAEM, NBME..)?

It depends on the program. I was told at each rotation whether the exam grade would be there or not

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Interview season is almost over but I just had a lingering question. Does your SLOE include the grade (in a box or the comments) you got on your clerkship exam (ex: SAEM, NBME..)?

Many programs note end of rotation score in the comments section. That’s what I do too. But, like the tests themself, there is no accross the board standard.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Merry Christmas everyone! I hope everyone gets at least a few days off to unwind before finishing out the last few weeks of interview season.

 

[JennyIgotyourNumber]

I've decided to do 2 second looks. Other than taking cues from the programs, and other than the specific things I want to learn/ask, I need help with the following:
How long does the visit typically last (hour-ish to hour-and-a-half-ish I've heard?)