EM starting salary

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nm825

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What kind of salary could a fresh out of residency EM doc make? AAAMC says 230k is average, but then I see that Medscape poll pegged average EM salary at 300k, and I've heard EM isn't really a specialty where pay rises that much. Suppose that this person is willing to go anywhere in the country, what kind of salary can they expect?
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nm825 said:
What kind of salary could a fresh out of residency EM doc make? AAAMC says 230k is average, but then I see that Medscape poll pegged average EM salary at 300k, and I've heard EM isn't really a specialty where pay rises that much. Suppose that this person is willing to go anywhere in the country, what kind of salary can they expect?
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n b4 someone tells you to use the search function.
 
TimesNewRoman said:
n b4 someone tells you to use the search function.
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I have used the search function, and there's a dearth of information about STARTING EM salaries. If I was asking about just EM salaries in general, I wouldn't have started a thread on it.
 
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nm825 said:
What kind of salary could a fresh out of residency EM doc make? AAAMC says 230k is average, but then I see that Medscape poll pegged average EM salary at 300k, and I've heard EM isn't really a specialty where pay rises that much. Suppose that this person is willing to go anywhere in the country, what kind of salary can they expect?
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asking the graduating EM residents at your institute would be a good starting point
 
nm825 said:
I've heard EM isn't really a specialty where pay rises that much.
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nm825 said:
there's a dearth of information about STARTING EM salaries.
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But there is a lot of info about salary in general which, by your own statement, is likely to be very similar to a starting salary.
 
I am a graduating resident. I went on 6 interviews last summer/fall, and I can tell you what I was offered as starting pay.*

The average STARTING pay that I was offered was about $240,000/year + benefits.
The average that I was told the docs at these shops make AFTER 2-3 YEARS (once moving up in seniority / making partner) was about $350,000/year + benefits.
*All of these interviews were in very desirable places. All with mountains and nice weather. None were rural.

So from what I gathered, the pay that EM physicians make does go up significantly, but fast. And once it goes up... once you make partner... it stays pretty steady at that point if you stay in the same group and are consistent with how many patients you see, etc.
 
A good friend of mine working at a small community hospital in southern California recently became an attending 3 years ago and has been earning around 150k/year + benefits. He doesn't seem to work much though and has not yet made partner. He's putting in about 9 shifts a month, 12 hours in a 13-bed ED with pretty good working environment.
 
pandahunter said:
A good friend of mine working at a small community hospital in southern California recently became an attending 3 years ago and has been earning around 150k/year + benefits. He doesn't seem to work much though and has not yet made partner. He's putting in about 9 shifts a month, 12 hours in a 13-bed ED with pretty good working environment.
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That's like 115/hr. Isn't it too low?
 
pandahunter said:
It's southern California, though. Sunshine tax.
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Yeah. I have been living in SoCal ever since I came to this country and, if given a choice, I won't leave, even if that means I'd need to sacrifice serious cash for it.
 
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Rates are all over the place in the country like every other profession. I am confident all of the averages quoted (esp for EM) is skewed. I am sure they ask every EM doc what they make.

What they should do is ask ONLY full time ED docs (atleast 30hrs/wk) what they make. Alot of EM docs I know work Urgent care, work 6 shifts a month, work on FSEDs. Throw these people in with full timers, then you may get only 250k/yr.

But when people ask what EM docs make, they assume that the pay is equivalent to full time work. Otherwise what is the point of asking what a person makes if you do not assume that they are full time.

I know in the South, EM docs would work for no Less than 200/hr (benefits taken into account) at a hospital based ED which works out to about 350k for 12 hr shifts, 12 shifts a month. And this is the low end of the scale and in including ALL cities including the big cities even Austin.

I know many that have contract rates at 300+/hr.
 
emergentmd said:
Rates are all over the place in the country like every other profession. I am confident all of the averages quoted (esp for EM) is skewed. I am sure they ask every EM doc what they make.

What they should do is ask ONLY full time ED docs (atleast 30hrs/wk) what they make. Alot of EM docs I know work Urgent care, work 6 shifts a month, work on FSEDs. Throw these people in with full timers, then you may get only 250k/yr.

But when people ask what EM docs make, they assume that the pay is equivalent to full time work. Otherwise what is the point of asking what a person makes if you do not assume that they are full time.

I know in the South, EM docs would work for no Less than 200/hr (benefits taken into account) at a hospital based ED which works out to about 350k for 12 hr shifts, 12 shifts a month. And this is the low end of the scale and in including ALL cities including the big cities even Austin.

I know many that have contract rates at 300+/hr.
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Texas is the south? That is the first time I recall hearing that. I thought Texans were proud to state that they are Texan, and NOT southern. When I lived in South Carolina (which IS in the south), it wasn't near $350K for 144.
 
Apollyon said:
Texas is the south? That is the first time I recall hearing that. I thought Texans were proud to state that they are Texan, and NOT southern. When I lived in South Carolina (which IS in the south), it wasn't near $350K for 144.
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Last I checked the map, it was in the south. Let me check again. Yeah, still south. Let me google. Yup said its in the south.

When you lived in S. carolina, you were robbed by the partners/CMG. Sorry to tell you that you were robbed and made to work for slave wages. Glad you brightened up and got a decent deal
 
The Daniel Stern survey gives starting salaries. I just had it up earlier today, let me pull it up again.

50th percentile with <4 years experience is total compensation of $279.

And who up there is saying full-time is more than 30 hours a week? Forget that. Who wants to work that much.

15 eights is 120 hours a month, or about 28 hours a week. If you can't live on that you have a spending problem, not an earning problem. At $250/hour that's $360K. Even at $150/hour that's $216K. You can have a very nice life on $216K a year. I thought I had money coming out of my ears with half that much.
 
emergentmd said:
Last I checked the map, it was in the south. Let me check again. Yeah, still south. Let me google. Yup said its in the south.

When you lived in S. carolina, you were robbed by the partners/CMG. Sorry to tell you that you were robbed and made to work for slave wages. Glad you brightened up and got a decent deal
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I don't know why you are being such a ****. I would wager your vast salary that the vast majority of people, if asked to name a southern state (Family Feud style), would NOT say "Texas" first.

However, you are correct that the partners robbed me blind. Anyways, they got their comeuppance, when the group, being as large as it was, just did not get the contract renewed (instead of the hospital buying it out). Instead of selling for $100million, the hospital got it for free!
 
While I agree with most of emergentmd's post, I'll second that Texas is not considered part of the South by most southerners. Google also thinks Oklahoma is part of the south. A lot of this probably depends on perspective. From the state of Washington, I'm sure a large portion of the country appears to be in the southeast.
 
TimesNewRoman said:
Lol. It's kind of like being in New Orleans....you're pretty sure you're still in the US, but not 100%.
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As for NO, just remember that it is "the most northern city in the Caribbean", and it all comes into focus. (Or not.)
 
Speaking of TX, I just got back from taking that infernal JP exam at the little PearsonVue site after cramming last night. I've rescheduled it about 4 times now because I keep picking up shifts. 92, pretty easy but would have certainly failed it without that online prep site. Highly recommend.
 
Hercules said:
While I agree with most of emergentmd's post, I'll second that Texas is not considered part of the South by most southerners. Google also thinks Oklahoma is part of the south. A lot of this probably depends on perspective. From the state of Washington, I'm sure a large portion of the country appears to be in the southeast.
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Where I grew up, Washington was to the South and East.
 
Hercules said:
While I agree with most of emergentmd's post, I'll second that Texas is not considered part of the South by most southerners. Google also thinks Oklahoma is part of the south. A lot of this probably depends on perspective. From the state of Washington, I'm sure a large portion of the country appears to be in the southeast.
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I think his mistake was saying "the" south in a way that confuses the region of The South with the direction to the south (big T/S vs little t/s). The South is a distinct region that definitely doesnt include Texas (hell, it might not even include 2/3 of florida), but there is a trend in payment across the whole southern half of the country (minus Cali, basically) that I think he was referring to.
 
xBODOMx said:
I'd just like to get some realistic numbers. I know things will change several years from now, but it's nice to have some realistic idea of numbers. I've always grown up very poor and am not a big spender on anything. My main focus is in EM. I think the difference for us is, we'll be graduating with much more debt than you guys who are currently attendings/leaving residency soon. For me, I calculated my debt to about 300k upon graduation, not including interest accured during residency.
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You didn't read post #7? That post has bona fide info that you're seeking for. Idk how it would get any better than that. Many ppl in the current entering class is on the same boat as you are. More debt will just take longer to pay off. I'll echo @The White Coat Investor's wisdom words - live like a resident until your debt is paid off.
 
Texas is a large state. Most would say Texas is part of the South. However, some would say East Texas is part of "the South," and West Texas is part of "the Southwest."
 
TimesNewRoman said:
Texas is Texas. Period.
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What he said.

Also you can google search the articles written by Barb Katz in ACEPNow. she does a 2 part article about compensation and also location every year in the fall. She used to publish in another journal but seen publishing in ACEPNow for last couple of years. YMMV.
 
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xBODOMx said:
I'd just like to get some realistic numbers. I know things will change several years from now, but it's nice to have some realistic idea of numbers. I've always grown up very poor and am not a big spender on anything. My main focus is in EM. I think the difference for us is, we'll be graduating with much more debt than you guys who are currently attendings/leaving residency soon. For me, I calculated my debt to about 300k upon graduation, not including interest accured during residency.
Click to expand...

Just a plug, but for all the financial stuff, the White Coat Investors page is a good place to start. You can probably take the averages for what they are worth. When you are job shopping, you are in a speciality that is in demand and, if you are willing to work anywhere, you could probably do more (and vice versa). Even with your degree of debt, you are in a position to easily pay it off and live comfortably unless you make a lot of stupid financial to add to your debt right out of the gate. When you consider the average salary/year basically almost equals the total amount of your overhead, you aren't in bad shape. (Unless something drastically changes in medicine in this country, etc).
 
Second the recommendation to read WCI. There is a superb guest post from this morning describing two different approaches to debt combined & negotiated. How much you make certainly matters, but not as much as how you live. There is an incredible amount of freedom just in knowing that you are choosing to live well under your monthly paycheck, paying bills "a month ahead", holding a multi-month emergency fund, and rapidly closing the gap on debt. It's even better when you become debt-free.

In EM -- start smart. Try to moonlight your last year. Read Barb Katz's columns. Build your emergency fund, get your basic insurances, hammer your debt... Just go read WCI. There's even a book now.

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/debt-free-vs-430k/
 
Also -- that didn't entirely answer your question -- I interviewed all over the country and had offers ranging from 200k-300+k with decent quality of life, at least one location that averaged around 450k per doc report (they were happy with their QOL). And one of the higher-end places included an unusually large ~100k bonus, but the golden bracelet was a 5 year contract instead of a 1-2 year repayment clause. The distribution reflected both the group type and the location distributions that one could predict from MGMA data and, more easily, from Barb Katz's columns. The main difference between first-year-out and partnership is ownership options (savings, pre-tax options, shares, etc) and potentially a higher rate of pay -- those details all depend on group setup.
 
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