Employment contract negotiation

[Parts Unknown]

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Any advice on getting a lawyer to help with the process? I assume it would be preferable to find one who practices in the state in which the group operates.

I have seen the MedAccord website, although 4% of your first year salary seems like highway robbery.

 

[pathstudent]

Any advice on getting a lawyer to help with the process? I assume it would be preferable to find one who practices in the state in which the group operates.

I have seen the MedAccord website, although 4% of your first year salary seems like highway robbery.

If you need a lawyer to understand the contract or don't trust the people hiring you, then it is probably not a job worth taking.

 

[Parts Unknown]

If you need a lawyer to understand the contract or don't trust the people hiring you, then it is probably not a job worth taking.

Not having a couple of hours of legal help for one of life's biggest decisions makes about as much sense as marrying Kevin Federline without a prenup.

 

[yaah]

Some GME offices have lawyers that they send their residents to for contract questions. If they don't have one, they might have a list of people.

If you need a lawyer to understand the contract or don't trust the people hiring you, then it is probably not a job worth taking.

This is not really true (well, of course you should be able to trust the people that hire you) - contracts are legal documents and much of it can be difficult to understand, especially if you haven't seen them before. The group hiring you should be able to explain most of what's in it - many things are standard in contracts. Groups have to protect themselves against strange situations like the person they hire not being truthful, or turning out to be a poor choice of hire, etc.

 

[pathstudent]

Some GME offices have lawyers that they send their residents to for contract questions. If they don't have one, they might have a list of people.



This is not really true (well, of course you should be able to trust the people that hire you) - contracts are legal documents and much of it can be difficult to understand, especially if you haven't seen them before. The group hiring you should be able to explain most of what's in it - many things are standard in contracts. Groups have to protect themselves against strange situations like the person they hire not being truthful, or turning out to be a poor choice of hire, etc.

That's my point. If it isn't simple, that's a serious red flag.

 

[yaah]

Yeah, but it's also a serious red flag if it's too easy to understand. That implies the group might be bush league and ripe for a takeover or squeeze-out by someone with real brains or business sense. Lots of contracts seem complicated to the uninitiated, but if you show anyone who has seen a lot of them, they will say that it is pretty standard.

 

[Parts Unknown]

That's my point. If it isn't simple, that's a serious red flag.

Regardless, the freshly trained pathologist is walking into a situation of which he/she is supremely ignorant: contract law, with all of it's legalese and delightful state-level idiosyncrasies.

Either the contract was written by lawyers, in which case an experienced lawyer on your side can help make sure it's fair, comprehensive, and reasonable for the local standards. A lawyer may also raise some issues you had not thought of, like negotiating that the group pay for your subspecialty boards.

Or, the contract was written by pathologists. God forbid. In this situation I would consider an experienced lawyer to be indispensable, in order to avoid some seriously ugly surprises down the road.

I find it mildly amusing that half of this board is dedicated to complaining that our profession is getting systematically pillaged, and you're advice for contract negotiations is for me to eat a handful of roofies and go in with my pants down. Thanks, you have been so very helpful.

 

[Pathwrath]

If you need a lawyer to understand the contract or don't trust the people hiring you, then it is probably not a job worth taking.

I actually agree with this. My first contract was long and detailed and required a lawyer to sift through the bull$hit. In retrospect, it was a huge red flag. My second--permanent--job's contract was a masterpiece of clarity and simplicity by comparison.

Complicated contracts presume complicated relationships. Not a good start to a longterm partnership, IMO.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Complicated contracts presume complicated relationships. Not a good start to a longterm partnership, IMO.

When I have been in the biz for awhile, and I have some perspective on this issue, I have no doubt that I will agree with you. For the record, I am hoping that any contract I survey will be the picture of simplicity. I sincerely hope that a decent lawyer would give me assurance in 10 minutes or less.

However, neither myself nor the vast majority of my colleagues has any significant experience with this side of practicing pathology (something that existing groups harp on quite a bit, as I recall). Forgive me for being cautious when I'm preparing to do something that is utterly foreign to me.

 

[Pathwrath]

When I have been in the biz for awhile, and I have some perspective on this issue, I have no doubt that I will agree with you. For the record, I am hoping that any contract I survey will be the picture of simplicity. I sincerely hope that decent lawyer would give me assurance in 10 minutes or less.

However, neither myself nor the vast majority of my colleagues has any significant experience with this side of practicing pathology (something that existing groups harp on quite a bit, as I recall). Forgive me for being cautious when I'm preparing to do something that is utterly foreign to me.

Like I wrote, I got a lawyer for my first one, too. Get legal advice if you feel you need it. You realize that you can edit contracts yourself, right? Even when we bring our (decent) lawyer in to draft new documents, we edit his boilerplate as we see fit.

Contract stipulations really don't come into play as much as you'd think. You are not guarenteed a lifetime of money and bliss by signing a piece of paper. If they don't want you for partner, you're going to be gone, regardless. Where contracts do come in handy is smoothing exits. Think pre-nups. Make sure your tail is paid (better yet, insist on occurrence-based) and that you are not geographically restricted after you say good-bye. Personally, if their initial contract screws you should the relationship sour or if it benefits them to detailed excess, I'd think long and hard before signing with that group. No lawyer or protracted contracting can make up for lousy partners.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Like I wrote, I got a lawyer for my first one, too. Get legal advice if you feel you need it.

Yes, I feel that I will need it. The point of this entire thread is to find advice on obtaining that help. So far I haven't received any.

 

[Pathwrath]

Yes, I feel that I will need it. The point of this entire thread is to find advice on obtaining that help. So far I haven't received any.

I received medical employment contract lawyer referrals from the bar association where the job was located, called the referrals, and picked the firm that I liked best.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I received medical employment contract lawyer referrals from the bar association where the job was located, called the referrals, and picked the firm that I liked best.

Perfect, thank you!

 

[yaah]

Yes, I feel that I will need it. The point of this entire thread is to find advice on obtaining that help. So far I haven't received any.

Did you talk to the GME office where you are training?

 

[Parts Unknown]

Did you talk to the GME office where you are training?

Oops, my bad. I did receive some advice. Once again indignation gives way to sheepishness.

I will contact them on Monday.

 

[deschutes]

Probably a little circuitous, but physician financial planners (who may offer a free first consultation) often are affiliated with medical employment contract lawyers.

 

[TMZ2007]

Our GME office just had a conference last week on contract negotiations: top 10 things to know before you sign, recruitment incentives, etc. It was helpful I thought. The law firm giving the talk offered advice (an initial read-through and one round of suggestions/changes) for a flat-rate $500, which seemed reasonable enough for such a big decision.

 

[pathstudent]

Our GME office just had a conference last week on contract negotiations: top 10 things to know before you sign, recruitment incentives, etc. It was helpful I thought. The law firm giving the talk offered advice (an initial read-through and one round of suggestions/changes) for a flat-rate $500, which seemed reasonable enough for such a big decision.

A flat rate of 500 seems more reasonable than 2% of the contract. That would work out to be around $4000 for something that probably wouldn't take more than a couple hours of the lawyer's time in total. Even better would be to find a law school friend or a pathologist who had been around the block, to explain it to you. It isn't like they are negotiating for you. You just need to understand what you are signing.

 

[LADoc00]

Any advice on getting a lawyer to help with the process? I assume it would be preferable to find one who practices in the state in which the group operates.

I have seen the MedAccord website, although 4% of your first year salary seems like highway robbery.

4% of your TOTAL yearly salary?! WTF! That is insane.

Why would you do that when you merely get a local attorney to look the contract over at their hourly wage of 200-300. Wouldnt take more than 2 hours of their time max.

 

[DrYoda]

None of you guys have lawyer friends you can have look at contracts?

It wasn't a physician contract (I'm a med student), but last time I had my lawyer do that kind of quick paperwork thing I payed him in ~$15 of beer.

*runs back to med student sub-forums*

 

[LADoc00]

None of you guys have lawyer friends you can have look at contracts?

It wasn't a physician contract (I'm a med student), but last time I had my lawyer do that kind of quick paperwork thing I payed him in ~$15 of beer.

*runs back to med student sub-forums*

Good point. You people should have gone to college, right? You should have had at least one friend/roommate who made their way into the legal profession. Im assuming every friend you had wasnt sociology or premed...if so, then you fail at friending people