EMT-B Certification vs. EMS Experience on Med School App

[KD1655]

Hi All,

Last week I started teaching at an accelerated (3 days a week, 8 am-5 pm for 6 weeks) EMT-B class. I was talking to the students and I was suprised to learn that about 50% of the class were from big name colleges (Ivy League, Bucknell, Georgetown, etc.) and *suprise, suprise* were pre-meds. The resounding attitude among them was that they were doing the EMT certification "just for my resume and application" and had no actual intention on working EMS anywhere post-certification. My question is, does EMS experience actually mean anything on a med school application? I am currently about mid way through with my PhD (researching traumatic brain injury) with the intention of applying to medical school after completing the PhD; I have been working EMS on the side in both a part-time, paid capacity and as a volunteer. I would hate that my EMT-B certification with 8 years of experience (5+ as a paid EMT in a busy system) would be looked upon the same way as Joe Shmoe's EMT-B certification with 0 years of experience. Thanks.

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[docB]

Here's my take on EMS as a CV builder as well as a link to a lengthy discussion where people argue that I'm wrong.

As for your specific question some ad coms might weight your experience and their "experience" similarly. That's because most ad coms don't have a clue about EMS. So the same ignorance that makes EMS a much less valuable CV builder than these premeds think might also make the ad com lump you in with them.

 

[jwk]

Hi All,

Last week I started teaching at an accelerated (3 days a week, 8 am-5 pm for 6 weeks) EMT-B class. I was talking to the students and I was suprised to learn that about 50% of the class were from big name colleges (Ivy League, Bucknell, Georgetown, etc.) and *suprise, suprise* were pre-meds. The resounding attitude among them was that they were doing the EMT certification "just for my resume and application" and had no actual intention on working EMS anywhere post-certification. My question is, does EMS experience actually mean anything on a med school application? I am currently about mid way through with my PhD (researching traumatic brain injury) with the intention of applying to medical school after completing the PhD; I have been working EMS on the side in both a part-time, paid capacity and as a volunteer. I would hate that my EMT-B certification with 8 years of experience (5+ as a paid EMT in a busy system) would be looked upon the same way as Joe Shmoe's EMT-B certification with 0 years of experience. Thanks.

You're finishing a PhD researching traumatic brain injury, and you're worried how EMS experience is going to affect your med school application? Why?

 

[EMS5]

Seriously. PhD especially in that specific area trumps EMS anyday. If you're involved with EMS, it should absolutely be out of "I want to", not "hey this looks good on an application", more so than the average pre-med applicant.

 

[KD1655]

Although I am finishing a PhD in TBI research, I continue to stay active in EMS, both teaching and on the streets. I am not doing the PhD nor EMS as an "CV builder". I do both because I love them and their objectives. I love my research because I hope that it could one day be utilized to help our troops in combat and I love EMS and fire because where else do patients invite you into their home or place of comfort at their worst times and you have an opportunity to "make their day".

 

[DitchDoc73]

EMT-B on an app is dime a dozen...Too many people have it just to have it. During my interviews I had one adcom say that EMT/Medic means nothing unless you have the years of experience to go along with it. Ultimately it is the patient care experience that matters...

 

[COMedic2Doc]

EMT-B on an app is dime a dozen...Too many people have it just to have it. During my interviews I had one adcom say that EMT/Medic means nothing unless you have the years of experience to go along with it. Ultimately it is the patient care experience that matters...

Definitely agree on this, great post DitchDoc. EMT-P (a few steps above an EMT-B) means nothing without having the experience to back it up. In order to get that experience, you have to sacrifice in other areas, which may actually be more valuable than the experience portion of your application. Good grades, research, and proving that you care about humanity is many times wayyyy more valuable than saying "I'm a Paramedic".

I've had a PA/Health Careers Advisor (very, very active in the admissions community in CO) describe having Paramedic experience as this, it can be misinterpreted as not being able to do the slower, more routine clinical rotations such as Primary Care.

For any pre-med student considering EMT-B, EMT-I, EMT-P as part of their application, decide based on personal reasons for doing so, not based on well it will look great on an application. All of these are expensive (especially Paramedic programs), and will take time to achieve something worthwhile talking about in an interview.

 

[KD1655]

As an undergraduate, I worked essentially full time in EMS in order to support my education. As a sophomore and junior, I worked as for a semi-busy suburban municpal system run by the town's police department. As a senior, I worked for a uber-busy urban system. I would have to agree with the above post that other areas of my potential application suffered, i.e. I had very little research experience as a senior pre-med in college, albeit I was an engineering major. It was not until during the latter part of my senior year when I really gave research (especially trauma-related) a try that I fell in love with it and decided to pursue the MS and ultimately the PhD prior to med school.

Also, I just remembered a rather informal conversation that I had with the Dean of Admissions at the local medical school. When I told him that I was an EMT, he asked me what was my most memorable call. I answered with a "war story" about a pediatric trauma arrest that I had a couple months back. At that point, he told me that I had good EMS experience because those that just take the EMT course for the sake of taking the EMT course usually say something like, "all of the calls seem to be so similar, I don't really have a most memorable." I am also hoping the fact that I am actually teaching new, prospective EMTs as part of an established program will look favorably to a medical school.

 

[EMS5]

I would definitely have to agree that a lot of students who say "oh well I've got an EMT maybe I'll just go ahead and do the paramedic" don't take into consideration the financial impact. It is typically two years (4 semesters) of classes, mine were arranged as 3 hours lecture, 4-5 hours lab, 4-6 hours clinical per week throughout the two years. In addition to those hours that were scheduled, we were required to have precepted rides with a paramedic (75 or 100?). This will impact the student's work schedule, and all the while they will be paying for this (it isn't cheap).

 

[COMedic2Doc]

I would definitely have to agree that a lot of students who say "oh well I've got an EMT maybe I'll just go ahead and do the paramedic" don't take into consideration the financial impact. It is typically two years (4 semesters) of classes, mine were arranged as 3 hours lecture, 4-5 hours lab, 4-6 hours clinical per week throughout the two years. In addition to those hours that were scheduled, we were required to have precepted rides with a paramedic (75 or 100?). This will impact the student's work schedule, and all the while they will be paying for this (it isn't cheap).

Wow, that's quite a bit less than our program's requirements. Our didactic was 8 hours a day (with labs thrown in as well, occasionally) three days a week for one year or the other option was giving up your soul for six months of continuous, hard hitting time devoted to Paramedic School (needless to say the main ones going to that were those that were sponsored by a Fire or County EMS system). We had to have 250 hours of in-hospital clinical time (OR, ER, ICU), something like 750 hours of field internships, and another 25 hours at least of outside care setting experience (nursing homes, etc). The financial impact was huge for me, $6,000 just for tuition. From what I've heard EMT-Basic is now up to like $800 per course, which definitely isn't cheap.

To KD 1655: Yeah I totally sympathize, I don't have much research time, but a huge amount of direct patient care experience. Just want to get my degree finished, and get accepted to a Medical School program somewhere (probably DO, mainly due to age and my approach to medicine). I like the Admissions Dean's response to your EMS experience, because it really is too true that a lot of newly certified EMTs can't talk about a specific call or have anything ingrained in their memories of lessons learned, etc.

 

[EMS5]

Wow. My program was a bit lacking in retrospect. I didn't feel like I had spent enough time in a clinical setting, but thankfully I had a great field preceptor. I would say most students got through our program with 600-700 hours total time in the intermediate/CRT year, and maybe 300 more in the paramedic year.

 

[Handinhand]

EMT-B on an app is dime a dozen...Too many people have it just to have it. During my interviews I had one adcom say that EMT/Medic means nothing unless you have the years of experience to go along with it. Ultimately it is the patient care experience that matters...

I'm doing EMT-B while in undergrad, and will have racked up 1500-2000 hours of volunteer time over 2-3 years working for a neighboring town to where I go to school. Is that the experience you're speaking of?

I'm actually going back to class in the spring for Intermediate Tech, so in my year off I will be working on my service as a crew chief. Also, I will be the vice president of our EMS Association for 2011-2012.

I really love EMS. I'd like to go into EM, and in addition to working in the ER, also work on an air ambulance. Also, I would love to be a medical director for a big, very active EMS association.

 

[docB]

Also, I would love to be a medical director for a big, very active EMS association.

Why?

 

[sammy911]

I'd like to think that my paramedic experience has given me an edge over my fellow applicants; however, it's the EMS career experiences I've had that have made me want to pursue medical school not the other way around. So heres to all of us (less than perfect stats) medics out there getting in...I have my first interview scheduled for Nov and I plan to get more invites!

 

[xnfs93hy]

You're finishing a PhD researching traumatic brain injury, and you're worried how EMS experience is going to affect your med school application? Why?

Any pre-med worth his or her salt in that class would actually utilize the certificate. I'm currently enrolled in a class and have NO idea why you would go through everything (even if a squad is paying your way) just to stick it on your AMCAS application. Unless you utilize your EMT-Basic certificate (and show adcoms that you did so), medical schools will NOT care. Do you know what they'll say?

"Oh, look, he received an EMT certificate. Cool beans. Didn't utilize it? Oh. Ok. Moving along, now..."

I'm trying to transfer to some of those schools that you mentioned and, quite frankly, really upset at the fact that a lot of your students are just in the class for the resume bling.

 

[xnfs93hy]

Hi All,

Last week I started teaching at an accelerated (3 days a week, 8 am-5 pm for 6 weeks) EMT-B class. I was talking to the students and I was suprised to learn that about 50% of the class were from big name colleges (Ivy League, Bucknell, Georgetown, etc.) and *suprise, suprise* were pre-meds. The resounding attitude among them was that they were doing the EMT certification "just for my resume and application" and had no actual intention on working EMS anywhere post-certification. My question is, does EMS experience actually mean anything on a med school application? I am currently about mid way through with my PhD (researching traumatic brain injury) with the intention of applying to medical school after completing the PhD; I have been working EMS on the side in both a part-time, paid capacity and as a volunteer. I would hate that my EMT-B certification with 8 years of experience (5+ as a paid EMT in a busy system) would be looked upon the same way as Joe Shmoe's EMT-B certification with 0 years of experience. Thanks.

The former would hold much more weight than that of Joe Schmoe's.

To address the boldface claim: Yes, it could count as volunteer/paid work experience, clinical involvement, and a great EC. Moreover, it's definitely something you could mention on your personal statement and on your AMCAS EC list (go into detail to show the admission committee that you actually utilized your cert.). Remember, though, that prehospital is a totally different field.

 

[jedimaster]

Hi! I am a first year at a podiatry school. I volunteered as an EMT-B for 6 years. I think EMS experience does count for something. I got asked about it during all of my interviews, and they always seemed impressed when I said how long I volunteered for. Just getting an EMT-B certification and no actual experience probably is a bonus over other similar students who don't have that, but about 5 others in my class are also EMT's and they each have around 3 years of experience. I would say that admissions committees want to see a significant amount of time doing any activity whether it is EMS or something else. The fact that you are an instructor will also help you a lot, since not only do you have a lot of experience and clinical knowledge but you have enough to teach others. Adding in your PhD research you are golden and as long as your grades are good you should get in anywhere you want. I am also from NJ. Good luck!

 

[Dwindlin]

Hi! I am a first year at a podiatry school. I volunteered as an EMT-B for 6 years. I think EMS experience does count for something. I got asked about it during all of my interviews, and they always seemed impressed when I said how long I volunteered for. Just getting an EMT-B certification and no actual experience probably is a bonus over other similar students who don't have that, but about 5 others in my class are also EMT's and they each have around 3 years of experience. I would say that admissions committees want to see a significant amount of time doing any activity whether it is EMS or something else. The fact that you are an instructor will also help you a lot, since not only do you have a lot of experience and clinical knowledge but you have enough to teach others. Adding in your PhD research you are golden and as long as your grades are good you should get in anywhere you want. I am also from NJ. Good luck!

I don't know about podiatry school, but medical schools won't be impressed with any EMS certifications unless you have some significant experience to go with it.

 

[jedimaster]

I agree with you. I don't think they will be impressed by it unless you have at least 2 or 3 years of experience in EMS.

 

[Lawsonc]

Wow, that's quite a bit less than our program's requirements. Our didactic was 8 hours a day (with labs thrown in as well, occasionally) three days a week for one year or the other option was giving up your soul for six months of continuous, hard hitting time devoted to Paramedic School (needless to say the main ones going to that were those that were sponsored by a Fire or County EMS system). We had to have 250 hours of in-hospital clinical time (OR, ER, ICU), something like 750 hours of field internships, and another 25 hours at least of outside care setting experience (nursing homes, etc). The financial impact was huge for me, $6,000 just for tuition. From what I've heard EMT-Basic is now up to like $800 per course, which definitely isn't cheap.

To KD 1655: Yeah I totally sympathize, I don't have much research time, but a huge amount of direct patient care experience. Just want to get my degree finished, and get accepted to a Medical School program somewhere (probably DO, mainly due to age and my approach to medicine). I like the Admissions Dean's response to your EMS experience, because it really is too true that a lot of newly certified EMTs can't talk about a specific call or have anything ingrained in their memories of lessons learned, etc.

Your internship and rotations/didactic training levels are national standard, but by no means is that the top end of Paramedic training in the United States. The program I am going to right now has me at 2200 hours and I am still waiting on 3 more field intubations before I am complete. Our competing school has most students complete 3000+ hours of field internship over a year long period and many students end up graduating with 50+ field intubations, 1000 Ivs, Surgical airway skills, etc. It is extremely discouraging and depressing to read that if and when I do decide to go to medical school I will be lumped into the mass majority of unaccredited medic mill Paramedics. Hopefully for the sake of our profession, the accreditation process that is going on right now will weed out the obvious bad apples. As EMS professionals we have to strive to improve the profession, medicine is not a trade school topic, it is for the best of the best, be it book smart or street smart.

This is my first post and already I have read and learned much, thanks for the input and the hours of information I will have to sift through.

 

[Claren]

... The program I am going to right now has me at 2200 hours and I am still waiting on 3 more field intubations before I am complete. Our competing school has most students complete 3000+ hours of field internship over a year long period and many students end up graduating with 50+ field intubations, 1000 Ivs, Surgical airway skills, etc.

Those are impressive statistics. What schools are these ?

 

[MedicFL]

Your internship and rotations/didactic training levels are national standard, but by no means is that the top end of Paramedic training in the United States. The program I am going to right now has me at 2200 hours and I am still waiting on 3 more field intubations before I am complete. Our competing school has most students complete 3000+ hours of field internship over a year long period and many students end up graduating with 50+ field intubations, 1000 Ivs, Surgical airway skills, etc. It is extremely discouraging and depressing to read that if and when I do decide to go to medical school I will be lumped into the mass majority of unaccredited medic mill Paramedics. Hopefully for the sake of our profession, the accreditation process that is going on right now will weed out the obvious bad apples. As EMS professionals we have to strive to improve the profession, medicine is not a trade school topic, it is for the best of the best, be it book smart or street smart.

This is my first post and already I have read and learned much, thanks for the input and the hours of information I will have to sift through.

You will actually be grouped into every other EMT/Paramedic as most adcoms do not know the difference. On a side note if you have medic students graduating with 50+ intubations is huge as the average paramedic even in a busy system is getting less than 5 a year.

 

[Claren]

You will actually be grouped into every other EMT/Paramedic as most adcoms do not know the difference. On a side note if you have medic students graduating with 50+ intubations is huge as the average paramedic even in a busy system is getting less than 5 a year.

The number is less impressive; I've done 50+ tubes at my program, as well. In the OR. What is -very- impressive is that he is saying those are all field tubes.

Also, 3000+ hours over the course of one year is 60 hours of clinicals a week, or not quite three 24 hour shifts a week. Again, what programs are these ?

 

[MedicFL]

The number is less impressive; I've done 50+ tubes at my program, as well. In the OR. What is -very- impressive is that he is saying those are all field tubes.

Also, 3000+ hours over the course of one year is 60 hours of clinicals a week, or not quite three 24 hour shifts a week. Again, what programs are these ?

I guess I should clarify 50+ field intubations.

 

[Lawsonc]

Harbor View (Medic 1), which as of next year will be a 4 year degree program, if it is not already (this starting fall). A preceptor who went through 3 years ago walked out with 49 tubes.

Central Washington University Bachelors in Paramedicine program.

I've been told Tacoma Community College (2 year program) also goes above and beyond the hours for internship, but have lower exit requirements for skills (in comparison to Harbor View and CWU) due to lack of clinical sites in recent years.


In addition- Medic 1 is an anomaly, our school competes with them and we are a 4 year, but our clinical and field sites do not have nearly as many intubations, even with RSI being a standard procedure across the board in WA. Many of us have gone over the "minimum exit" requirements, of 20 Hospital and 5 Field, but no one will come close to what the students and medics in King County will do in a year long period.

 

[Lawsonc]

The number is less impressive; I've done 50+ tubes at my program, as well. In the OR. What is -very- impressive is that he is saying those are all field tubes.

Also, 3000+ hours over the course of one year is 60 hours of clinicals a week, or not quite three 24 hour shifts a week. Again, what programs are these ?

We start our internship in November (1 month after school starts) and are expected to do 2-3 shifts a week while going to school 4 days a week in the fall and then 2-3 days a week in the winter and spring. Most students finish in July, some will go till august to complete Skills.

In addition- I thought of something else, in no way do I think any of these programs are any better because of their long internship and more demanding requirement of skills. A monkey can intubate, start an IV, put someone on a monitor, etc. I wouldn't think a medical school admission board/persons would or should be impressed by how many people you have intubated. It was just to make a point that there are some schools that have more hands on time and require more then the national standard for graduation. Critical thinking skills and understanding of the body and your treatments is what makes a good medic and medical professional. These programs also seem to do a good job of teaching that part and that is what makes the difference. I didn't want anyone thinking I praise my program and the Medic 1 program just based on the skills, that would be an insult to some very well known programs.

 

[Dayzie]

I see this topic's a few weeks out of date, but I hope you don't mind me jumping in.....

I just finished my EMT-B in July, and I'm heading straight into EMT-I at the community college this month along with taking full time courses at the university...... I picked EMS because I need a job, and I wanted a way to get my clinical experience in, network with doctors, and get paid while doing so. I'm expecting to work in an ER and possibly special events with the ambulance companies. It's not a resume builder, in my eyes, but a way for me to combine interests and still keep the cats in kitty litter while I'm finishing out my undergrad (which is still three years away, at least.)

Can any of you offer advice on how to maximize this opportunity? It seems like you're saying 2-3 years experience is ideal, and that should be easy enough. I've signed up with the state's DMAT, and I've already gotten in some shadowing time as a result of asking the ER docs if they'd let me come back. I realize this route makes getting any undergraduate research in rather tricky, if not impossible, but I can't keep living off of loans this early in the game and EMS seemed like a good idea. Plus, if I end up blowing my shot at medical school, I wouldn't have any problems at all with sticking with it as a career.

Edited to add: I have gone through all of the other threads, and I don't want this to be a dead horse I'm beating here.... I'm not asking whether EMS will "help" my chances or make it seem like I'm doing it to bide my time until I can run off to something I think is bigger and better - that's not the case. I have a genuine interest in patient care, and I come from a family of EMTs, one of whom ended up a nurse later on. I grew up admiring the work, and it just felt like a natural thing to go into since I need to work my way through the rest of school in any case. I prefer the continuity of care side of things over trauma, and have thoroughly loved the time I've spent in the ER. I'm only looking for advice on how to maximize my experience. 🙂 Thanks in advance.

 

[Dwindlin]

I see this topic's a few weeks out of date, but I hope you don't mind me jumping in.....

I just finished my EMT-B in July, and I'm heading straight into EMT-I at the community college this month along with taking full time courses at the university...... I picked EMS because I need a job, and I wanted a way to get my clinical experience in, network with doctors, and get paid while doing so. I'm expecting to work in an ER and possibly special events with the ambulance companies. It's not a resume builder, in my eyes, but a way for me to combine interests and still keep the cats in kitty litter while I'm finishing out my undergrad (which is still three years away, at least.)

Can any of you offer advice on how to maximize this opportunity? It seems like you're saying 2-3 years experience is ideal, and that should be easy enough. I've signed up with the state's DMAT, and I've already gotten in some shadowing time as a result of asking the ER docs if they'd let me come back. I realize this route makes getting any undergraduate research in rather tricky, if not impossible, but I can't keep living off of loans this early in the game and EMS seemed like a good idea. Plus, if I end up blowing my shot at medical school, I wouldn't have any problems at all with sticking with it as a career.

Edited to add: I have gone through all of the other threads, and I don't want this to be a dead horse I'm beating here.... I'm not asking whether EMS will "help" my chances or make it seem like I'm doing it to bide my time until I can run off to something I think is bigger and better - that's not the case. I have a genuine interest in patient care, and I come from a family of EMTs, one of whom ended up a nurse later on. I grew up admiring the work, and it just felt like a natural thing to go into since I need to work my way through the rest of school in any case. I prefer the continuity of care side of things over trauma, and have thoroughly loved the time I've spent in the ER. I'm only looking for advice on how to maximize my experience. 🙂 Thanks in advance.

I think you are confused as to what continuity means. Continuity is antithesis of EM/EMS.

As to your questions, I doubt you will be able to seriously support yourself working part time EMS only without loans. In my area, working part time is good for some throw around cash and that's about it.

My EMS experience absolutely helped me network though.

 

[Dayzie]

Nah, I know what it means. I was using it to clarify why I prefer the ER to an ambulance service. It might not have been the best choice of words, but I'm not sure what better word would have sufficed - it's not long term care, of course, but there is a higher degree of continuity to it than just getting somebody to the ER. I get to see what happens after they get there, and stay with them through to their next steps. That's what I like rather than the "thrilling" bits.

Also, being able to support myself fully doing any part time job is unlikely. I'd rather be doing something I like and that furthers my interests than something completely unrelated to medicine, and it's something I could see myself sticking with should the med school aspirations not work out for me. I won't get out of this without plenty of loan damage - I just want to mitigate it.

 

[tremulousNeedle]

Hi All,

Last week I started teaching at an accelerated (3 days a week, 8 am-5 pm for 6 weeks) EMT-B class. I was talking to the students and I was suprised to learn that about 50% of the class were from big name colleges (Ivy League, Bucknell, Georgetown, etc.) and *suprise, suprise* were pre-meds. The resounding attitude among them was that they were doing the EMT certification "just for my resume and application" and had no actual intention on working EMS anywhere post-certification. My question is, does EMS experience actually mean anything on a med school application? I am currently about mid way through with my PhD (researching traumatic brain injury) with the intention of applying to medical school after completing the PhD; I have been working EMS on the side in both a part-time, paid capacity and as a volunteer. I would hate that my EMT-B certification with 8 years of experience (5+ as a paid EMT in a busy system) would be looked upon the same way as Joe Shmoe's EMT-B certification with 0 years of experience. Thanks.

Let me tell you a little about my past so you can put my message into context. I am currently an emergency medicine resident and a flight physician. I have interviewed applicants to my residency program and have 2 years of experience interviewing medical school applicants. I was an EMT with pre-hospital, ED, and educational experience.

Any reputable medical school will not view your years of service the same way as the student that simply obtained certification to pad their application. I was admittedly a novice to the process when I started interviewing medical students, but even I could sniff out application padding amongst committed and meaningful experiences. It didn’t bode well for the student who listed EMT license on their application and then didn’t do anything with it. Admissions committee representatives are looking for commitment to service and professionalism. A few long-term meaningful experiences far outweigh a resume full of solitary, isolated experiences (these are still good, but they need to be combined with the former). Your long-term, multifaceted career in pre-hospital health will serve you well if you choose to apply to medical school; just don’t forget to jump through the other hoops of the application process that can be found elsewhere on this site. Good luck