Engineering majors...............

[mattorama]

Engineering is not much harder then most other majors and is in no way the hardest. I say this as someone who has had several years of engineering classes (including those "hardest ever" EE classes) at a top 10 engineering school. Granted, I may not finish my engineering degree (as I picked up Bio two years ago when I decided to go premed...I will graduate in bio in Dec. and have the option of finishing up engineering in the spring), but I have had more then enough classes. I will admit that engineering did bring down my GPA at the beginning, but only because I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life and was going through things half-heartedly. Since then, my grades have been all As. The only engineers I ever hear complain about how hard it is are those who do poorly. I know plenty of 3.9+ engineers who would NOT claim that engineering is the most difficult. If you know how to do some simple problem solving and manipulate equations, engineering isn't bad. Heck, I found out from friends in the physics and math dept. that engineers are openly mocked by their profs since they usually have almost no understanding of the math/physics they use. I guess that is fine since engineers are NOT scientists...it isn't their job to know the intricite detials behind the science they use (same goes for physicians). Engineers just don't realize their place in the whole scheme of things.

Don't get me wrong, engineering is a great major, but just realize that nobody outside of engineering holds engineers up on a pedestal. The "engineering as the ultimate major" crap is completly internal to engineering departments. I didn't figure this out until after I picked up Bio and started taking classes in other departments. Admissions boards are highly unlikly to give "engineer" points as my engineering advisor likes to claim (kind of funny...the actual pre-med advisor says that schools don't elevate engineers above any other majors...once again, the whole internal to engineering thing). So, unless you end up with a doc at your interview with an engineering background, I doubt anyone will care. Good Luck

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[mosfet]

I never said that engineering is "THE HARDEST" major in the world or anything. I don't know about how favorably an eng degree looks with the adcoms. But all I know is pre-med classes are a joke compared to engineering. Yeah, you are right about the fact that there are 3.9+ gpa engineers, but ask them how hard they worked to get that gpa. If they didn't work hard then pre-med classes will definitely be a walk in the park for them. I know there are much harder majors than engineering and med school (for instance, CS theory, PH.D level Phyics, and other high level math majors). But pre-med?? Come on, gimme a break!!!

 

[mosfet]

I never said that engineering is "THE HARDEST" major in the world or anything. I don't know about how favorably an eng degree looks with the adcoms. But all I know is pre-med classes are a joke compared to engineering. Yeah, you are right about the fact that there are 3.9+ gpa engineers, but ask them how hard they worked to get that gpa. If they didn't work hard then pre-med classes will definitely be a walk in the park for them. I know there are much harder majors than engineering and med school (for instance, CS theory, PH.D level Physics, and other high level math majors). But pre-med?? Come on, gimme a break!!!

 

[mattorama]

Originally posted by mosfet
I never said that engineering is "THE HARDEST" major in the world or anything. I don't know about how favorably an eng degree looks with the adcoms. But all I know is pre-med classes are a joke compared to engineering. Yeah, you are right about the fact that there are 3.9+ gpa engineers, but ask them how hard they worked to get that gpa. If they didn't work hard then pre-med classes will definitely be a walk in the park for them. I know there are much harder majors than engineering and med school (for instance, CS theory, PH.D level Physics, and other high level math majors). But pre-med?? Come on, gimme a break!!!

I think it depends on the classes some. But honestly, my junior/senior lvl ME classes took less time and effort then say, biochem or organic. That may be because I am fast at problem solving. There isn't much material in engineering, it is just a matter of being able to come up with a solution to a problem. The solutions to these problems, despite popular belief, has more to do with having "memorized/practiced" different techniques then creative thinking (creative thinking is almost solely left to abstract math/philosophy/theoretical physics...or research/design). Memorization is memorization be it rote learning of reaction mechanisms or doing a bunch of homework problems to be able to "memorize" how to solve different heat/mass transfer problems. The only difference is that engineering requires some math ability to manipulate equations.

What do you consider pre-med classes? Is it just the two semesters of intro bio/organic? I guess my school doesn't have a "pre-med" major so maybe things are different at my school. I admit though that an engineering degree CAN be more difficult to get then most majors if one only fulfills the minimum requirements. At my school there is almost zero flexibility in an engineering curriculum while in the sciences there is MUCH MUCH flexibility. You can graduate with a degree in math without ever going beyond simple engineering type applied math (calc, diff eq, non-abstract linear algebra, discrete, etc..). Or, you can do as a friend of mine did and take grad lvl abstract math classes for half of his undergrad math major. Same goes for nearly every other major. So in that case, as a whole, engineers may have a slightly harder time just because they can't "dilute" their degree. Try taking some upper level classes in other departments including liberal arts (gasp!). Take an upper lvl analytical philosophy class or two and see what you think. It isn't fair to compare intro bio/chem classes with non-intro engineering classes. Of course the engineering will be more difficult. Compare upper lvl bio (maybe a class in bio-informatics or x-ray crystallography) with upper lvl engineering and I think you will see the difficulty lvls about the same. Same could be said for (nearly) any other major.

 

[thackl]

I was surprised how many ex-engineering pre-meds I met at TPR last spring. Most of them had the same story; got out of engineering to get the GPA up for med school.

I disagree about engineering being memorization/practice only. The ones at my school who did that watched their grades go down as the material became more complicated because they did not understand.

Try processing for silicon from begining to end in a wafer fab and tell me about memorization....... or how about complicated heat transfer and metalurgical issues related to High Temp Operating Life tests in burn-in ovens. You must know electrical, mechanical, heat transfer, fluid dynamics, metalurgy, moldflow, statistics and much more. Too much to memorize for sure.

 

[jberg4]

If all engineers did was memorize then we'd be in big trouble. How do you get a metal hip replacement by memorizing and rearranging equations? You better know all about the material you working with, all about the body, and how the two will interact. Not so trivial when it comes down to getting the thing perfect so the patient doesn't have chronic pain anymore.

Anyone who's had to go through a Capstone Biomedical Senior Design Project knows my pain. And they know that even though putting together a few formulas down on paper isn't that hard, getting an actual product built under FDA regulations is extremely difficult. Or try to develop your own voice recognition detector by charaterizing the sound waves of words and sylables, as was one of the project assigned in my electrical instrumentation class. Engineering on paper may just be calculations , but engineering in real life is not such an exact science. This is what makes it difficult.

On a side note, I have appeciation for all subjects and the unique abilities you need to be successful in each. I would considered doing a thesis on Plato or something to be challenging. But what makes engineering a little more profound is that the skills you learn are a little more diverse. In bioengineering we combine math, science, engineering, medicine, writing and presentation skills.

And one more thing. I think people do respect engineers more than your typical bio major. When I tell most people I'm a bioengineer I can see their head spin. They may not know much about the major, but they know that it is difficult.

 

[mattorama]

Considering I never completly "got out of engineering" (just added bio and made it my main focus...I am only three classes away from my engineering degree which I may or may not finish this spring) and the fact that my engineering grades went UP after I had something to work for (from nearly all Bs to all As), I think I have some idea what I am talking about. I don't think I fit your standard story.

I agree that engineering isn't standard rote memoriztion like anatomy, but repeatedly solving similiar problems in homework is I think sort of a form of memorization, just not quite as obvious as normal rote. That is how engineering classes work. Do the homework correctly and you will be fine on the exams. Engineering is nice because there really isn't anything to study outside of doing your homework. I could be wrong about all of this though....just one man's experience and opinion.

 

[mattorama]

Originally posted by jberg4
If all engineers did was memorize then we'd be in big trouble. How do you get a metal hip replacement by memorizing and rearranging equations? You better know all about the material you working with, all about the body, and how the two will interact. Not so trivial when it comes down to getting the thing perfect so the patient doesn't have chronic pain anymore.

Anyone who's had to go through a Capstone Biomedical Senior Design Project knows my pain. And they know that even though putting together a few formulas down on paper isn't that hard, getting an actual product built under FDA regulations is extremely difficult. Or try to develop your own voice recognition detector by charaterizing the sound waves of words and sylables, as was one of the project assigned in my electrical instrumentation class. Engineering on paper may just be calculations , but engineering in real life is not such an exact science. This is what makes it difficult.

On a side note, I have appeciation for all subjects and the unique abilities you need to be successful in each. I would considered doing a thesis on Plato or something to be challenging. But what makes engineering a little more profound is that the skills you learn are a little more diverse. In bioengineering we combine math, science, engineering, medicine, writing and presentation skills.

And one more thing. I think people do respect engineers more than your typical bio major. When I tell most people I'm a bioengineer I can see their head spin. They may not know much about the major, but they know that it is difficult.

I agree that "real world" engineering isn't much about memorization, but how much of that do you get as an undergrad? I have had basic design courses/engineering projects (a big one in a vibration control class), but most of an engineers education is basic on paper stuff (at my school). Of course in the real world you move on to creative thinking, but this is true of all majors. A biologist/chemist may do quite a bit of rote memorization while a student, but once in a lab it is all about creative thinking. But we aren't talking about real world experience, we are talking about school. In the same way engineers have design projects, other majors have research projects both of which require some practicing of creative thinking, but overall an undergrad education is about bookwork. I think I am going to retire from this thread now...best of luck in med school

 

[noy]

Engineering is certianly the most difficult of majors in the BROAD sense - even succesful engineers who try/switch to other disciplines report engineering as more difficult, and other who try engineering courses (or are afraid to) report it as being the toughest...

Now, this may be due to the coursework, fundamental concepts, imbicile administrators, TA's who speak no English, or general lack of social skills amongst students and faculty, but engineering remains the hardest. Even within engineering there is the 'spectrum', from Chem E & EE to Mech E, civil, ceramic, industrial, etc...

Does this automatically make you a better medical student candidate? No. But it shows that you are different, and can be used as a lens to look at your undergraduate experience.

Does it even mean engineers are smarter? No (perhaps I think we are anyway, though)...

So take it from those of us who went through the whole shebang, years of this from the weedout two-thirds-will-switch courses to the capstone stay-in-the-lab-all-night courses, its as tough as it gets as an undergrad...

And for those of use trying to go MD/PhD in engineering, well, it is somewhat necessary

 

[OrthoFixation]

As a BSME with a Masters in Environmental Engineering, I can relate to the grade depression felt in the engr college. But difficulty is more a function of aptitude for a particular subject combined with hours studying. Some things come to people easier than others.

For me, Vibrations was the toughest. For a friend, it was Heat Transfer which I personally loved and thought was easy. I had several EE courses and aced them while being totally disgusted by the content. But it sure makes Rt=R1+R2+... and V1=V2=V3 a walk in the park.

Then again, my masters program was much easier than the undergrad stuff. But we were all more committed and didn't reallly have any slackers. The lowest grade I saw was a C. My grad GPA was 3.75, while undergrad was 3.22. Undergrad would have been lower, but I was bolstered by 2 years spent majoring in Comp Sci w/ Bus minor. Engineering was definately harder.

Within engineering, I think that Industrial is by far the easiest, but most others are pretty consistently hard. At our school, they called Engineering the Pre-Business department!

Kudos to those that had 3.5+ as that is an accomplishment. For me, I was too busy chasing skirts and bhonging beers.

Let's hope those adcoms better give us a +.25 GPA or so nudge for our years of suffering. Some degrees are just as tough, like Chemistry, Physics, Mathmatics...but it is a short list.

Engineers better have people skills or you're toast

Whoever said engineering knowledge won't apply to medicine....what have you been smoking? Somehow I think knowledge of materials, stress, levers, articulations, fluids, valves, et al have an excellent application in the body. Wouldn't EE have applicatons in neurology? Civil in concrete? OK maybe not all engineers. But most would and the problem solving mentality is worth gold.

Good luck

 

[OrthoFixation]

PS. Anyone heard about the three engineers in a bar fighting over why GOD was this or that discipline of engineer?


The EE said, GOD is an electrical engineer. Just look at the nervous system, the brain, the control mechanisms. No other explanation, it is so complex and so fast.


The ME said, you've got to be kidding, look at all the levers, joints, articulations, fluid systems, valves, filters, pumps, etc. GOD was certainly a mechanical engineer.


The CivE said, GOD was absolutely a civil engineer. Who else would put a waste treatment facility immediately adjacent to a recreation area!

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Let's give "hard" a meaning in the context of undergraduate major-- percentage of the entering population at a top 10 university that isn't MIT or Caltech that would be incapable of completing this major with an A-/B+ (3.5) average in classes that count towards the major. On this basis, I would say,

(1) Mathematics
(2) Physics
(3) Chemical Engineering
(4) Aeronautical Engineering
(5) Rest of engineering, including Computer Science with at least half coursework in theoretical CS, but excluding Industrial Engineering
(6) Industrial Engineering
(7) Chemistry
(8) Statistics
(9) Biology
(10) Geology
(11) Philosophy
(12) Social Sciences (Econ, Psych, etc.)
(13) Humanities (English, History, Anthropology, Languages, Poly Sci, etc.)

 

[Can U Feel It?]

Originally posted by WatchingWaiting
Let's give "hard" a meaning in the context of undergraduate major-- percentage of the entering population at a top 10 university that isn't MIT or Caltech that would be incapable of completing this major with an A-/B+ (3.5) average in classes that count towards the major. On this basis, I would say,

(1) Mathematics
(2) Physics
(3) Chemical Engineering
(4) Aeronautical Engineering
(5) Rest of engineering, including Computer Science with at least half coursework in theoretical CS, but excluding Industrial Engineering
(6) Industrial Engineering
(7) Chemistry
(8) Statistics
(9) Biology
(10) Geology
(11) Philosophy
(12) Social Sciences (Econ, Psych, etc.)
(13) Humanities (English, History, Anthropology, Languages, Poly Sci, etc.)

I pretty much agree w/ that list, however I would have to move Math down to about #6. Upper-Level Math Courses are a lot easier than Calc & Diff-Eq.