English teachers and the ego.

[smuwillobrien]

Is it just me or are english teachers the most egocentric people you've ever been introduced to? No matter what I write it's a B. I spend 2 hours writing 2 paragraphs. I revise them to no end, reword things, so on and so forth.

End result? Another B. Either I give myself too much credit, or I'm right in assuming that giving a mark higher than a B is like giving away part of your ego or something.

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[Anka]

I'd go talk to him/her. Sometimes some English profs have particular schools of literary criticism they subscribe do, and your paper, for whatever reason, isn't in line with that. For example, you write a very different paper for a Marxist literary type than a Freudian. The schools are in direct conflict. You can actually give a Freudian paper to a Marxist, but you need to be sure to answer the concerns of your particular professor (e.g., different things you need evidence for).

If you want, I'd be happy to read one of your papers and see if I can pick anything up. Just PM me a sample. (okay, I admit it, I'm from the dark side and have, indeed, taken many and taught one lit course.).

Anka

 

[Centrum]

I can relate. My current English teacher believes that all spare time should be devoted to English and if you aren't an English major you suck. Awesome.

 

[Nutmeg]

I had a sitution with an English teacher who spent the whole semester telling me that I had great verbal and writing skills, and that my ability to communicate would be really helpful in grad school, and then... B- ? WTF!!!

It turns out that you couldn't get an A unless you spent a lot of time confering with the prof and getting his .02 on everything. Most people take their writing abilities very personally, and don't want or resent outside influence, and this leaves English teachers feeling superfluous. I'd suggest that if grades are what you really want, bring rough drafts to office hours well before the due date, and make your revisions based on their suggestions. It makes them feel useful and helpful.

 

[bwc77]

I've never made below an "A" on an english paper (I've already completed the english comp. requirements), but I sure can't say that about any of the sciences. Follow this advice if you want to start producing stellar papers:

(1) Always use a thesaurus to make your writing seem colorful
(2) If you aren't 100% sure that a sentence's syntax is correct, reword it
(3) Argue your point with conviction, even if you don't really believe what you are arguing (sometimes the easiest/fastest argument to write is one which you really don't believe). I had an English teacher last semester comment that my paper was arrogant and prideful, but I still got the "A"
(4) Contrary to popular opinion, be silent where the text is silent....does anyone "really" care about the opinions that a college undergraduate holds concerning an involved Faulkner piece.....your teacher is lying if he/she say that they do
(5) Supplementing your exposition of a piece of literature with historical sources makes a very strong and engaging paper
(6) Most importantly: Never deviate from your paper's thesis. If you do decide to do this, go back up to the introduction (or wherever) and include the new idea(s) within the thesis.

Be creative...

🙂

 

[smuwillobrien]

Thanks for all the excellent advice. I've got a lot of new things to consider. I can choose between actually trying to improve my writing, brown nosing or just not giving a damn.

I'll be sure to send you out copies of my word, Anka. Thanks for the offer.

 

[ForensicPath]

If you are at all familiar with the book Clockwork Orange you may know that the original publication did not include the last chapter that Anthony Burgess wrote (It wasn't in the movie either). It has since been included in current publications. Our assignment was to try and interpret the different meaning of the book that the last chapter provided (if there was any). So basically our assignment was to interpret the meaning of burgess' work and if it was changed by the publisher. I got a B on the assignment because my answer wasn't "right." When I asked why only a B (I was expecting something about my literary style of grammar or something) and he told me that he didn't think my theory was correct. Now thats just bull****. I have since described my idea to other english profs and people familiar with clockwork orange and they said that my idea was a good one and I supported it well with evidence from the book. So basically the prick gave me a B because he didn't agree.

I wish you could put an asterisk next to some courses on your med school application and say that the grade should have been higher, but you had a loser teacher. Oh well.

 

[Cerberus]

I made A's on all my papers in Lit 2 yet ended up with a B+. Ergo English teachers are subjective ******s.

My two cents

 

[bwc77]

Originally posted by Cerberus
I made A's on all my papers in Lit 2 yet ended up with a B+. Ergo English teachers are subjective ******s.

My two cents

Wow, quiet a generalization, huh? A member of the University of Washington Medical School's admission committee told an applicant who was a straight-A aerospace engineering major that he believed that english majors make the best doctors; this was in the medical admissions book written by the two cornell MD's and the U of W MD (one of them was named Stephanie Jones). By the way, I believe that the school (U of W) had a higher average gpa and mcat average than Harvard's matriculants did. I'd also rather have the subjective english ****** take my verbal reasoning section (probably the hardest one) over the physics major. My two cents.

 

[DD214_DOC]

The skills required of a physician, or the "Art of Medicine", are more related to liberal arts studies than science studies.

I will never understand the biology major premeds. How many of these people actually want to be bio majors? Why work for an entire degree in this stuff when you only need 8 courses? It boggles the mind.

 

[PrincetonRocks]

I can relate to that. English professors are just too smart and they see things in a text that I never knew existed. I have only taken 3 English courses at Princeton, but I remember a professor (who is infamous at Princeton) giving me a C on my first essay. You don't understand, but I have never recieved anything lower than an A since the 3rd grade. But, at the end of my paper, he wrote the following: If i had to grade this based on my conscience, I have to give you a C. Since I know that a C isn't going to swing well on your transcript, I'm going to buffer this grade up to an A. For every essay after that, he gave everyone in the class 2 grades---one we earned, one that is to go on our transcript.


I'm pretty strong at English. If you want me to read over your papers, email them to me.

 

[thackl]

Hey, enjineres and fizzicists are right behind those liberal arts dorks.

 

[bosco]

Originally posted by PrincetonRocks
But, at the end of my paper, he wrote the following: If i had to grade this based on my conscience, I have to give you a C. Since I know that a C isn't going to swing well on your transcript, I'm going to buffer this grade up to an A. For every essay after that, he gave everyone in the class 2 grades---one we earned, one that is to go on our transcript.

Yeah, Ivy's don't inflate grades at all!

 

[supersunny]

Originally posted by PrincetonRocks
But, at the end of my paper, he wrote the following: If i had to grade this based on my conscience, I have to give you a C. Since I know that a C isn't going to swing well on your transcript, I'm going to buffer this grade up to an A. For every essay after that, he gave everyone in the class 2 grades---one we earned, one that is to go on our transcript.


I'm pretty strong at English. If you want me to read over your papers, email them to me.

i'm speechless... i didn't believe things like that really happened. hehe..

 

[thackl]

Originally posted by bosco
Yeah, Ivy's don't inflate grades at all!

I was wondering how long that would take.

 

[ForensicPath]

Originally posted by bosco
Yeah, Ivy's don't inflate grades at all!

Wasn't Harvard under investigation recently for inflating grades?

 

[chapinsita]

Originally posted by PrincetonRocks
English professors are just too smart and they see things in a text that I never knew existed.

It's not intelligence, it's B***Sh***ing skills. The day I learned how to BS is the day I got an A. Straight A's in English ever since.

 

[Cerberus]

Originally posted by chapinsita
It's not intelligence, it's B***Sh***ing skills. The day I learned how to BS is the day I got an A. Straight A's in English ever since.

Exactly, thats what English is. English is all about taking something straighforward and trying to make it sound deep. English is about taking some story and reading into it whatever you want. Basically, I think English as a course of study is so relative that it ends up being a waste of time.

begin the hateration

 

[acretinmelon]

I took British Literature in my first semester of college because I was considering an English major. Every single freaking paper I wrote was a B+, no matter what.

Finally, I went in and sat down with the professor and said, "I don't understand why this is a B+ paper." He read it over, said, "Neither do I," and changed it to an A.

I agree: English professors are idiots. I'm never taking another English class again.

 

[bwc77]

Originally posted by Cerberus
Exactly, thats what English is. English is all about taking something straighforward and trying to make it sound deep. English is about taking some story and reading into it whatever you want. Basically, I think English as a course of study is so relative that it ends up being a waste of time.

begin the hateration

I actually agree with you. This school of thought is called reduction criticism, and people get degrees in english and practice this form of criticism. My point is that since english is so easy, why is everyone whining? Many people are like robots, and they do poor in this subject because the only thing they can actually do is manipulate a formula. How very boring. If a person can make an A+ in four different english classes (with different teachers), then much more is going on then "subjectivity" on the teachers part. On the ACT, english has always been (EVERY year) the lowest scoring national average, out of all four sections. It happened to be my highest scoring section. Sorry, but that part of the test can not be considered subjective because you must employ rules of grammar/rhetoric that you have been supposed to have been practicing all of your life. After 12 years of the subject in school (unlike any other subject), you would think that it should be so very easy. Blaming the teacher is easier than admitting you are not proficient in the subject, regardless of whether you like english or not. For those of us that are good at it, you realize it is an art just like music and is quiet fun. All the excuses are cute, though!

 

[noy]

notwithstanding the use of ee cummings style here, I can be an effective writer - and was told so by my expos teacher... she said "you are one of the few in the class who could be a writer... but I dont like what you have to say"... so she failed me... on 3 papers in a row...

at my school, the purpose of expository writing is just to extend the reach of the english department's slimy tentacles over the whole school, poisoning the atmosphere with crushed hope and discouraging bright people from thinking properly...

But, thanks to my dean, my grade for expos was ZAPPED, so its no longer a personal problem for me...

Now I read/analyze/critique on my own, without the dangerous influence of english grad students...

 

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by bwc77
On the ACT, english has always been (EVERY year) the lowest scoring national average, out of all four sections. It happened to be my highest scoring section. Sorry, but that part of the test can not be considered subjective because you must employ rules of grammar/rhetoric that you have been supposed to have been practicing all of your life.

Comparing the subjectivity of prof's who grade papers (or worse, GSI's who grade papers) to a standardized test like the ACT is pointless. I got a 13 on the VR section of the MCAT and my writing sample was a T, yet only managed a B- in my Second English course. (I got A's on my writing in many other courses that had no formula for a right answer, like philosophy and history). It doesn't change the fact that sometimes English professors often take pleasure in punishing students.

I had a GSI in one of my lab classes who gave me 3/3 on my first two lab reports. Then we had a conversation in which he--a chemistry grad student--said that chemical engineers can't write. I then told him that I was a chemical engineer, and my next lab reports took a rapid plunge to 1/3, not due to my data or analysis, but my writing style. There is a subjectivity in writing assessment, and the good experiences of a few students does nothing to erase the injustice perpetuated against many students.

I agree that there are a great many people who could stand to learn a thing or two from English professors, and many people use the existence of the injustice to justify their lack of effort in improving poor reasoning and communication skills. But in my experience, particularly in English, brown-nosing and whining have always triumphed over aptitude and hard work.

 

[DieselPetrolGrl]

* sigh*
im going to get a english minor..i mean might as well..one more stupid class left...but looking bk i wish id never even dipped my hands in that... my last english professor gave me a lower grade than my friend even though i did equal ( if not more ) amount of work ..i went to all the classes ..participated in discussions..thing many of my classmates barely did..his inconsideration has led me to avoid smiling or saying hello to him at any chance encounter ..he thinks i went from "partisipation girl " to a mute....good!

 

[Anka]

I guess this is all a function of where you go. My own experience with English was that it was real fun, and we got to exchange ideas. My professors were always open to new ideas (although you had to defend them logically).

Anka

 

[dEEpEyEs]

Unless you're going to teach English...there's no point spending 4 years of undergraduate years learning literature. Personally, I can gain about the same or more benefit from going to the library and reading some classics. Literary criticism is as close to bullsh1t as one can get. These profs. are obsolete unless they contrive some radical interpretation ....hhahahah...they seriously crack me up.

Listen, I've BSed my way through all my English classes and have NEVER gotten less than an "A"...what a waste!!!!

One funny example. I had just finished reading "The Midnight Children" by Salman Rushdie...he uses alot of Punjabi (a North Indian language) in the book to get across his multicultural upbrining to the reader. The Prof. was trying to explain the meaning of those parts written in Punjabi after reading some translations....hahaha...what he was saying was completely false...I am fluent in Punjabi. From that day on, I've given zero to nil respect to these profs....

-DE

 

[link26]

Originally posted by PrincetonRocks
But, at the end of my paper, he wrote the following: If i had to grade this based on my conscience, I have to give you a C. Since I know that a C isn't going to swing well on your transcript, I'm going to buffer this grade up to an A. For every essay after that, he gave everyone in the class 2 grades---one we earned, one that is to go on our transcript.

haha. I love this thread, and this post in particular.
You guys are pampered sons of b*tches at Princeton.
I'm gonna get a sniper rifle and "buffer" a bullet through that english professor's head. The **** he's doing is worse than a student cheating.

English is such overrated subjective bullsh*t. I'm more of a grammar person. If you can use correct grammar and write clearly, then you're a good writer. I can't stand when people say "I can't help but do this and this," when the proper way to say it is "I can't help doing this and this." A lot of english majors make this error, while at the same time, trying to sound all sophisticated.

Here's my story:
=====================================
My last semester of english at Cal was just bunk. My instructor was a graduate student chick named Dalya Sachs. She was sexy, but I hated her. I used to call her "Nutsachs." So if you ever meet her, flip her the bird. 😀
Dalya never gave an A on a paper. All my classmates were like "WTF?!?!"
If you think, just by chance, at least 1 out of 25 students should have gotten an A. We're all writers of different caliber. I got a B on the paper. There must have been better writers in the class.
She addressed the "no A's" issue by telling us a story of how she didn't get an A on a paper once. (boo hoo) With that story, we students inferred that she was getting revenge on us.

One day, Dalya showed us a paper that she wrote when she was an undergrad at Cal. She got an A- on it. We read it, and I thought it was just bullsh*t, wordy, and unorganized. I can't believe her prof gave her an A-.

=======================

Let's face it. There are excellent writers out there, like newspaper/magazine editors and english scholars. But most of us are sh*tty writers by those standards. We get A's on some essays because we get lucky. Each teacher is different too. You can bring the same paper to 2 different teachers, and you'll get 2 very different grades. This fact alone makes English pure bunk to me.

On the bright side, we won't have to bother with this English Lit bullsh*t when we're MD's. So don't let this get you down. You only need 6-8 semester hours of english.

 

[Anka]

Link,

English is about more than grammar, it is about rhetoric. Time was when you could simply take a course in rhetoric. It is a very well defined field, with guiding priciples. It is also useful, because it teaches the subjective part of arguement, as well as the artistic use of distance in an essay. But, unfortunately, it is almost impossible to get a good rhetoric class these days -- so you learn it in English. Or not, in which case you don't do very well.

Anka

 

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by Anka
Link,

English is about more than grammar, it is about rhetoric. Time was when you could simply take a course in rhetoric. It is a very well defined field, with guiding priciples. It is also useful, because it teaches the subjective part of arguement, as well as the artistic use of distance in an essay. But, unfortunately, it is almost impossible to get a good rhetoric class these days -- so you learn it in English. Or not, in which case you don't do very well.

Anka

Berkeley still offers a BA in rhetoric.

 

[Hethera]

Hi, all! Newbie here. 🙂

I loved every English class I ever took, but some of those professors are psychos! I will preface my story by saying that two of my very favorite profs were in the Lang & Lit department, and their classes were challenging but fair.

And then there was Professor Woodward.

This man could not punctuate a sentence to save his life, judging from the many emails we received from him in which the possessive word "its" had a misplaced apostrophe. Horrors! But he had a huge ego, and it so happened that he was the only professor who taught Film Criticism.

It was impossible to make an A in his class if your film critique didn't mirror his opinions on the subject. In my rough draft, I said something negative (but totally justified) about "The Grapes of Wrath," which apparently was his Very Favorite Film of All Time. There were absolutely no marks anywhere on the draft when he gave it back, but he cornered me after class and argued that it was not a hastily-produced effort to capitalize on the book's best-selling status, but a True Work Of Art.

So I changed that stupid draft and said "The Grapes of Wrath" was a cinematic masterpiece and guess what? With that one friggin' change between the first and final drafts, I made myself an A plus. I felt dirty, but I just couldn't let myself take a B in a course taught by a man whose emails bled buckets of my imaginary red ink.

 

[carrigallen]

ugh. IMO, it is unfortunate to see premedical students ragging on english. If you don't understand it, try not to judge too soon. I think that english is a discipline, with the kind of rewards that won't mean much to you if you have a particular mindset.

I like to think of english as an intangible art. the kind of emotions a single word can send quivering through you while reading a poem, or the ironic twist of a short fiction might leave with you as you drive home looking out at the twilight, are completely indefinable. English, like psych, philosophy, gives you a kind of heightened conciousness..if evaluate at it like a law case study or an immunology article, it will seem a frightful bore.

 

[link26]

Originally posted by Nutmeg
Berkeley still offers a BA in rhetoric.

I have a BA in MCB. Fortunately, I ain't going back for no rhetoric BS. pun intended.

 

[AlternateSome1]

Originally posted by bosco
Yeah, Ivy's don't inflate grades at all!

Isn't this process very similar to science profs handing out a 50% as a test grade then curving the course to a C average? It doesn't seem like its unreasonable to me when taken in that light.


~AS1~

 

[link26]

Originally posted by AlternateSome1
Isn't this process very similar to science profs handing out a 50% as a test grade then curving the course to a C average? It doesn't seem like its unreasonable to me when taken in that light.


~AS1~

it depends on how many A's are given out..... and if there even is a C average in a Princeton english class. If most people are getting C's "by conscience" and A's on their transcript...... that's just wrooong.

 

[Nutmeg]

Originally posted by carrigallen
ugh. IMO, it is unfortunate to see premedical students ragging on english. If you don't understand it, try not to judge too soon. I think that english is a discipline, with the kind of rewards that won't mean much to you if you have a particular mindset.

I like to think of english as an intangible art. the kind of emotions a single word can send quivering through you while reading a poem, or the ironic twist of a short fiction might leave with you as you drive home looking out at the twilight, are completely indefinable. English, like psych, philosophy, gives you a kind of heightened conciousness..if evaluate at it like a law case study or an immunology article, it will seem a frightful bore.

I don't think anyone here has done any ragging on English as an important part of one's education--the complaints are generally about the subjectivity and bias of the professors who grade you. I pissed and moaned about my B-, but I still think that the class which introduced me to Stephen Pinker's "The Language Instinct" was a very important class. I learned a great deal, and became a better writer, but it still feels like English teachers are responsible for about 95% of the grading along ideological lines that I've witnessed.

My psych teachers at CC always made a strong point of saying, "these are my biases, I'll try to present all sides, but check me if I start slippin'". It would be refreshing to ever hear this degree of modesty and humility in an English professor.

 

[Thundrstorm]

I do know of professors who blatantly state that they don't give As or who only give As if you spit their own opinions right back at them, but that's not always the reason when you get a B. Unlike science and math where there is usually a correct answer, writing papers takes a certain skill set that not everyone has; it takes a different kind of work than just studying or memorizing. Not everyone has the ability to pull off an A paper and I think it upsets a lot of pre-med or science students because they're so used to working hard and getting the A.


hope that didn't come off as arrogant -- not my intent.

 

[smuwillobrien]

I think that's probably the case for me, Thundrstorm. My teacher's syllabus defines a B as a technically flawless paper with little or no mechanical or grammatical errors, but that is relatively unimaginative or linear.

You are right that I'm used to working hard at getting an A, and you're also right that the classes in which I excel at are the ones where there is one correct answer with a particular "correct" method for arriving at the answer.

 

[smuwillobrien]

I originally wrote this post despising my professor for his grading scheme. Time has passed, and I've done more assignments for this teacher. It turns out that he isn't so bad after all.

We use this online system called WebCT, and he likes it when you participate on that. I check it every free minute I get, help people, answer questions and spark debates. If he posts a bonus question I answer it as well as I can (I'm 3/3!).

The last marked assignment we got back I'm now at an A-. I think that if you show you're interested in the class, show that you want to do well, and work hard at all your assignments despite the marks you've been given in the past things can change for the better.

Plus I've learned a lot of things about myself as a writer that I've never known before. Ideas are organizing themselves a lot better, and I find that I'm more specific in what I write.

Just some ideas.

 

[dynx]

I have never had a problem with writing papers but I once had a POETRY teacher with a Phd that made the class call her doctor. I thought that was quite egotistical Sorry, but if you teach poetry then you're Mr., Mrs., or professor. You wanna be called doctor then get a degree in a real field. What's strange is most of the Phds that I have met in physics and such couldn't care less if you called them doctor...but give a person a Phd in Bohemian Dance Interpretation and they INSIST on the doctor title. WTF?

 

[twinklz]

As an English major, I can wholeheartedly agree with the BS grading style of the English profs. I love writing and reading, and I'm good at it (36 reading on the ACT 13 VR) I won awards throughout high school for my writing. Heck, the only reason I ever got a research position after having had only 2 science courses was b/c the prof knew I could write extremely well. So she had me doing a lot of library research and begin writing the paper that will hopefully be published.

Get to college, and throughout my four years I never once made an A on an English paper, A-s yes, but not a single frickin' A. And I made all As in all the other disciplines (history, philosophy, etc.) Because of this, my math and science GPA is significantly higher than my overall GPA. 😡

I used to grump that if I had been a Chem major my GPA would have been much higher (don't know if thats actually the case, but its fun to pretend)😀

 

[Centrum]

My wonderful english professor informed the class today that out of 64 students: there were 9 B's, 18 C's and 37 D's/F's on our latest in class writing assignment. It's really sad when you have to pray for a B.

 

[jlee9531]

then again i took scandinavian literature and they are a bit eccentric like me so our styles matched....

got a mix of both As and Bs......depended if i was really into the book or not, which has a lot to do with it.........but yeah......

i said nothing of too much significance.......just felt like typing something 😉

 

[Nuel]

Originally posted by dynx
I have never had a problem with writing papers but I once had a POETRY teacher with a Phd that made the class call her doctor. I thought that was quite egotistical Sorry, but if you teach poetry then you're Mr., Mrs., or professor. You wanna be called doctor then get a degree in a real field. What's strange is most of the Phds that I have met in physics and such couldn't care less if you called them doctor...but give a person a Phd in Bohemian Dance Interpretation and they INSIST on the doctor title. WTF?

Again, truer words have never been spoken

 

[ItsGavinC]

I actually cannot relate to much of what is being said. I received by degree in English, and had no trouble getting A and A- grades with little or no effort.

Sure, some research papers required effort, but I would rarely write more than one draft, if that.

Sorry to hear you are all having poor experiences.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Originally posted by dEEpEyEs
From that day on, I've given zero to nil respect to these profs....

-DE

Way to generalize!

 

[Hethera]

GavinC -- ditto here, both on the grades and rarely writing more than one draft. Even though I majored in journalism, which most English professors regard as inferior, I managed to win over (almost) all of my professors.

More so than creativity, structure and flow are really important to most professors. They also aren't things that can be learned easily. Through no real merit of my own, I happen to be good at writing a fluid, well-organized paper on the first try.

I'll never forget the day one of my professors was giving a lecture on the importance of writing many drafts. I was shrinking into my seat in shame, because my slackerly attitude toward rewriting is one of my worst qualities, when Professor X held up my most recent paper and said, "Now here is an example of why writing a lot of drafts pays off." I cringed, expecting utter humiliation, only to hear him extol me for "obviously putting a lot of time and effort" into editing my work. Then he read the whole thing and commented on how everything was tied together so well. I felt horribly guilty and was incredibly glad he didn't ask me exactly how much time and effort I had put into writing my paper. 😳

Some people get Bs when they put in an A effort. Some people get As for a B effort. It's sucky, but it's true. Granted, English is more subjective than mathematics, but it all boils down to writing something that is not only creative, but cohesive, technically perfect and fluid. And, of course, that doesn't clash with the professor's pet ideas. 😉

 

[Nuel]

Originally posted by Hethera
Granted, English is more subjective than mathematics,

Kinda far-reaching . . . contrary to your opinion mathematics is not subjective. If I add one and one I get two, there is no paucity of subjectivity in that; math is about proof and solutions to problems. English, I agree, can get very subjective.

 

[Hethera]

Let me rephrase that. Mathematics is concrete; mathematics professors have been known to grade subjectively. Just because the answers are set in stone doesn't mean some profs can be real a-holes about what style of notation they prefer, how much work you should show, and what method they want you to use to arrive at your solution -- regardless of the fact that they didn't inform their students of any of this at the outset.

By the way, I'd like to mention that this is a message board, not an English class. Half the people in here type in lowercase and sentence fragments, because we're not getting graded on our message-board ramblings. Anyone who comes on here to pick apart the grammar of posts written in 20 seconds has got to be, in the kind of comparison I seem so fond of making, more anal than a tube worm.