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vikingsfan

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Boston Globe
October 7, 2006
Pg. 1

Army-Financed Doctor Granted Objector Status

By Brian MacQuarrie, Globe Staff

An anesthesiologist whose medical training was financed by the Army must be discharged from the Army Reserve as a conscientious objector, a federal judge ruled yesterday.

Dr. Mary Hanna, for whom the Army paid approximately $184,000 to attend the Tufts University School of Medicine, had been scheduled to report to active duty Tuesday at Fort Bliss, Texas. Last December, as she neared the end of her residency at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, Hanna notified the Army that her renewed religious beliefs were now incompatible with military service.

An Army review board last month rejected Hanna's request after considering whether Hanna, a captain, objected to service in the armed forces on sincere religious grounds, or whether she sought to evade her commitment.

In yesterday's ruling, US Judge Nancy Gertner discounted as ``irrelevant to impermissible to unsubstantiated" the conclusions of an Army chaplain who urged, in part, that Hanna's application be rejected because her Coptic Orthodox faith does not teach pacifism.

``I find that the Army improperly denied Hanna's application for CO status," Gertner wrote.

Court-ordered reversals of the conscientious objector review board are rare, said Louis Font, Hanna's attorney. Since the Iraq war began, no more than 31 conscientious objector applications have been approved in a calendar year, according to Army data.

``I am grateful that the court recognized that what the Army did was illegal," Font said. ``She believes that her prayers have been answered."

US Attorney Michael J. Sullivan described Gertner's decision as ``regrettable." In a statement, Sullivan said, ``A doctor is a precious resource for the military. By granting Dr. Hanna's conscientious objector application, the court will cause the Army to lose not only the money it paid for her education, but also the eight years of time that her anesthesiology education took."

Hanna's attorney said his client will repay the government the money it spent on her education, plus interest.

Hanna, 30, of Somerville, had enlisted as an undergraduate at UCLA in 1997. She received an Army-paid scholarship to attend medical school, and in exchange she agreed to eight years of service -- four years of active duty and four years in the reserves.

As part of the application process, she declared that she was not a conscientious objector. In her application for objector status last December, Hanna said a revitalization of her Coptic Orthodox beliefs, which included pacifism, prevented her from fulfilling her commitment to the Army.

``I believe that it is my responsibility as a Christian to always strive to make this community a reality, in which people are bound by love, unity, and peace," Hanna wrote in the application. ``I believe that I betray these moral and religious principles by participating in war in any way."

In her request, Hanna said she had no strong convictions about the war when she enlisted. However, Hanna said, her faith became revitalized after the 2003 death of her father, a former Egyptian military officer.

Font said Hanna had received an e-mail from a colonel that informed all Army anesthesiologists that they could expect to be deployed to Iraq for much-needed medical duty.

Gertner ruled that the Army review board had no ``basis in fact" for rejecting Hanna's application on Sept. 15 by a 2-1 vote. The judge wrote that the board had relied heavily on an Army chaplain who concluded that the Coptic Orthodox Church endorses military service, and that Hanna was inconsistent because she worked at a hospital that performs abortions.

Despite the chaplain's conclusions, and a psychiatrist's report that described Hanna as insincere, the Army's initial investigating officer recommended that her application be approved. That recommendation was endorsed through several levels up the chain of command, including by a brigadier general, until it reached the review board, which has final say.

In voting against Hanna's application, the president of the review panel wrote: ``Applicant has shown that she is a devout Coptic Christian but has failed to show that she sincerely meets the CO criteria. Her statements are logical but lack passion and sincerity. They appear as repetitious rather than personally held beliefs."

According to the chaplain assigned to the board, the statements of a priest that the Coptic Orthodox Church ``does not teach pacifism leads me to believe that there is more to Capt. Hanna's position than merely religious conviction. Also, her timing is too convenient with the completion of her schooling and her entry" to active duty.

Gertner, however, wrote that ``the evidence in the record does not show Hanna to be inconsistent or insincere in her beliefs."
 
I bet this cost a pretty penny lawyer wise.

In the end, the army and her are better off. I'm not her judge, but can certainly understand the desire to leave the military bad enough to have even looked this up to see what it meant. In the end, I could not compromise my intergrity, and just let my jaywalking to the talking.
 
Let the discussion begin

US Attorney Michael J. Sullivan described Gertner's decision as ``regrettable." In a statement, Sullivan said, ``A doctor is a precious resource for the military. By granting Dr. Hanna's conscientious objector application, the court will cause the Army to lose not only the money it paid for her education, but also the eight years of time that her anesthesiology education took."

As a born again Pagan and servant of the Goddess since 1985, I shall not comment on the religious aspects of this person's conscientious objector status. I am not a Coptic Orthodox Christian (or any other flavor), and shall not judge her.

However...

U.S. Attorney Sullivan stated that "a doctor is a precious resource for the military."

Funny, having been a military physician for 15 years of my life, and a board-certified anesthesiologist for 11 years in the military, I really NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER felt that way.

Did I say "EVER" yet?

I felt like a pawn.

A peon.

A dot on the org chart.

Less than a nurse in promotion potential: http://www.medicalcorpse.com/Truthhurts4.ppt

A peg to be plugged into wherever AFPC felt like putting an "anesthesia provider".

When I announced my intention to leave the USAF after 15 years toward retirement...

No one called me into his/her office to dissuade me.

Not my Absentee Landlady O-6 Anesthesiologist Flight Commander, who spent the better part of the last decade of her "service" to our country doing anything but showing up for work...

Not my ex-ophthalmologist, gifted retinal surgeon final Squadron Commander, who said, and I quote, "Well, I guess you spent a lot of time thinking about this decision" before signing my papers...

And especially not my rabidly evangelical Catholic Medical Group Commander, who seemed extremely relieved to rid himself of a Pagan LtCol member of the 89th MDG "Spiritual Wellness Committee", so that he could continue his jihad to Christianize the U.S. Air Force: (see page 11) http://www.milarch.org/news/newsletters/NL050600.pdf

Precious?

Ha!

Worthless, they mean.

Nuff said,

--
R
 
I can't decide which side I want to take on this one. One side of me wants to pounce on her and call her a liar and all sorts of other bad things, but when she throws in there that she's going to pay back the money plus interest I'm somewhat pacified.

I have no idea what the 'coptic' religion is so I can't comment on that, but I feel it's a little shady that all the sudden she's bringing this up after receiving an email. I agree that it must have cost a pretty penny for that lawyer work though.
 
"Uhhhh? You mean they really want me to be IN the Army, and go to war....? Well, I really don't like war, and, yeah, I'll pay all the money back, eventually. And I'm a tree-hugging, God fearing, Southern Baptist, Catholic, Atheist,
Islamic, Pagan, Buddhist, Wiccan, Coptic Christian, whatever I can be that doesn't believe war is right, and I mean it. You all know that there were no Coptics were lobbing bombs at Israel in 1967. Let's just all get along and live in love, unity, and peace."

Pretty good gig for her. It works a lot better for the almost board certified anesthesiologist ready to make $300,000+ than it does for the disgruntled 18 year old recruit. Ahhh, the priviledged life.
 
How does this work when in our contract it explicitly states that there is no "pay-out" option??
Maybe this wasn't in her contract?


Now I see all the tree-hugging hippie docs doing this... sad story for those who wanted a billet and a scholarship but couldn't get it, and the soldiers that needed her.
 
So what if she is a concientious objector? She's going into the military as a DOCTOR. Not a rifle-person. She will be saving lives, even though she wears a uniform. This judge sounds like a fool to me.
 
So what if she is a concientious objector? She's going into the military as a DOCTOR. Not a rifle-person. She will be saving lives, even though she wears a uniform. This judge sounds like a fool to me.

I agree....she was to be a doctor, and was unlikely to be committing crimes against humanity.😉
 
So what if she is a concientious objector? She's going into the military as a DOCTOR. Not a rifle-person. She will be saving lives, even though she wears a uniform. This judge sounds like a fool to me.


It's OK to say "rifleman." There are no female infantrymen (infantrypeople) so you're not offending anybody.
 
It's OK to say "rifleman." There are no female infantrymen (infantrypeople) so you're not offending anybody.
Every Marine's a rifleman, and there are female Marines. They don't serve in infantry battalions, but they carry rifles, and sometimes need them.

We have female soldiers, too.


Re: the conscientious objector

Why not require her to serve out her time in the Public Health Service or at a VA hospital? There are many ways she could serve her country, as she promised to do, without being part of the war machine she has suddenly decided she loathes.
 
Every Marine's a rifleman, and there are female Marines. They don't serve in infantry battalions, but they carry rifles, and sometimes need them.

We have female soldiers, too.


Re: the conscientious objector

Why not require her to serve out her time in the Public Health Service or at a VA hospital? There are many ways she could serve her country, as she promised to do, without being part of the war machine she has suddenly decided she loathes.

absolutely, she signed on the line, she should do her time.
 
I agree....she was to be a doctor, and was unlikely to be committing crimes against humanity.😉

Not that they don't ask: http://www.medicalcorpse.com/poisonedpizza.html

And not that current DoD policy doesn't set up an explicit two-track system, wherein some docs can be assigned to a "Professional Provider-Patient treatment relationship" (Geneva Convention and Hippocratic Oath rules apply), whereas others can be assigned, at the whim of the Commander, to "Non-Treatment Activities" (assisting with torture; psych evals of prisoners to break their wills, etc.). See my page on DoD Instruction 2310.08E, dated June 6, 2006, here: http://www.medicalcorpse.com/torturepolicy.html

Nevertheless...

It is my personal opinion that this person should have figured out whether or not she wanted to be in the military, with all that that entails, before she signed on the dotted line and received hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of training. I feel that her actions have dishonored her, and, by association, all military anesthesiologists who did the time they owed their government (11 years + 4 year residency = 15 years for me). 99% of the time, no one in the military will be asking anesthesiologists how to poison pizzas or harm people (intentionally, vs. bringing them to harm due to inadequate medical/nursing/support/infrastructure capabilities of devolving MTFs...but I shan't "hijack" this thread to elaborate further). As others here state, she should have sucked it up, done her time, and then gotten out. Going back on her word to the U.S. government and taxpayers was more wrong than any probable harmful, non-medical, anti-Hippocratic action she would likely have been asked to perform.

Six years ago, the situation would have been cut and dried. Docs would never be asked to commit crimes against humanity and their medical oaths by assisting in torture, etc. But then, six years ago, I still thought I was staying in for a career.

BTW, for what it's worth, a very brief Google search yielded the following Mennonite newsletter, which documents a strong pacifist tradition in the Coptic Orthodox church: http://www.mcc.org/peace/pon/PON_2006-02.pdf#search=""Coptic Orthodox" pacifism"

I guess the military Chaplain who argued that Coptic Orthodox folks don't have such a tradition was not smart enough to type ["Coptic Orthodox" pacifism] into his web browser. Or perhaps he just had a religious/military ax to grind, and knew that his role as a Chaplain would gain him instant credibility as a witness ([rolling eyes] because we all know that men [especially men] of the cloth would never do anything unethical, such as lying under oath or abusing chil... you get the point.).

Afterthought: despite what a (hack) "precious resource" (spit) the military claims physicians to be, if she had simply taken the lesbian route, she would have been kicked out with zero fanfare and zero resistance by today's exceedingly reactionary, evangelical, fire and brimstone military hierarchy.
Look at the dozens of highly trained translators at DLI who have been kicked out (some of whom were Arabic language experts): http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A29683-2003Dec2?language=printer

The military has a desperate need for linguists, but not so desperate that they are willing to overlook sexual orientation.

The military has a desperate need for physicians, so much so that they will fight claims of religious/moral opposition to military service. And yet we still pay lip service to the concept of U.S. support for freedom of religion...oh, yeah, that's only overseas.

An interesting double standard, yes?

Good thread topic!

--
R
 
Not that they don't ask: http://www.medicalcorpse.com/poisonedpizza.html

And not that current DoD policy doesn't set up an explicit two-track system, wherein some docs can be assigned to a "Professional Provider-Patient treatment relationship" (Geneva Convention and Hippocratic Oath rules apply), whereas others can be assigned, at the whim of the Commander, to "Non-Treatment Activities" (assisting with torture; psych evals of prisoners to break their wills, etc.). See my page on DoD Instruction 2310.08E, dated June 6, 2006, here: http://www.medicalcorpse.com/torturepolicy.html

Nevertheless...

It is my personal opinion that this person should have figured out whether or not she wanted to be in the military, with all that that entails, before she signed on the dotted line and received hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of training. I feel that her actions have dishonored her, and, by association, all military anesthesiologists who did the time they owed their government (11 years + 4 year residency = 15 years for me). 99% of the time, no one in the military will be asking anesthesiologists how to poison pizzas or harm people (intentionally, vs. bringing them to harm due to inadequate medical/nursing/support/infrastructure capabilities of devolving MTFs...but I shan't "hijack" this thread to elaborate further). As others here state, she should have sucked it up, done her time, and then gotten out. Going back on her word to the U.S. government and taxpayers was more wrong than any probable harmful, non-medical, anti-Hippocratic action she would likely have been asked to perform.

Six years ago, the situation would have been cut and dried. Docs would never be asked to commit crimes against humanity and their medical oaths by assisting in torture, etc. But then, six years ago, I still thought I was staying in for a career.

BTW, for what it's worth, a very brief Google search yielded the following Mennonite newsletter, which documents a strong pacifist tradition in the Coptic Orthodox church: http://www.mcc.org/peace/pon/PON_2006-02.pdf#search=""Coptic Orthodox" pacifism"

I guess the military Chaplain who argued that Coptic Orthodox folks don't have such a tradition was not smart enough to type ["Coptic Orthodox" pacifism] into his web browser. Or perhaps he just had a religious/military ax to grind, and knew that his role as a Chaplain would gain him instant credibility as a witness ([rolling eyes] because we all know that men [especially men] of the cloth would never do anything unethical, such as lying under oath or abusing chil... you get the point.).

Afterthought: despite what a (hack) "precious resource" (spit) the military claims physicians to be, if she had simply taken the lesbian route, she would have been kicked out with zero fanfare and zero resistance by today's exceedingly reactionary, evangelical, fire and brimstone military hierarchy.
Look at the dozens of highly trained translators at DLI who have been kicked out (some of whom were Arabic language experts): http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A29683-2003Dec2?language=printer

The military has a desperate need for linguists, but not so desperate that they are willing to overlook sexual orientation.

The military has a desperate need for physicians, so much so that they will fight claims of religious/moral opposition to military service. And yet we still pay lip service to the concept of U.S. support for freedom of religion...oh, yeah, that's only overseas.

An interesting double standard, yes?

Good thread topic!

--
R


The ethics debate of religion/antiviolence could have been avoided and nobody would even have an argument if this doctor had call the government out on the carpet (munching...)

Maybe the next great, or only great, reformation of military physicians will come from a same sex Las Vegas homosexuality erotic ball at the MGM grand. Then, after dismissing or inprisoning all parties, the military will be left to replace them all at better salary and better work environments. Who is going to call Steve Wynn and set this up?
 
Maybe the next great, or only great, reformation of military physicians will come from a same sex Las Vegas homosexuality erotic ball at the MGM grand. Then, after dismissing or inprisoning all parties, the military will be left to replace them all at better salary and better work environments. Who is going to call Steve Wynn and set this up?

The ironic part is that if we had fired all of the alternate-lifestyle CRNAs at Travis between 1994-2000, we could have reliably run between 2-3 rooms/day, rather than 7.

Just military hypocrisy, that's all...and changing times.

Pretty soon a New Testament will be an issue item during COT, and Air Force officers will be required to undertake PRE (Professional Religious Education) in addition to PME.

--
R
 
The ethics debate of religion/antiviolence could have been avoided and nobody would even have an argument if this doctor had call the government out on the carpet (munching...)

Maybe the next great, or only great, reformation of military physicians will come from a same sex Las Vegas homosexuality erotic ball at the MGM grand. Then, after dismissing or inprisoning all parties, the military will be left to replace them all at better salary and better work environments. Who is going to call Steve Wynn and set this up?

Will this route work for married people with children? Can I come out of the closet and be reborn at the same time so I can claim C.O and gay/lesbianism - or are they mutually exclusive? The military Chaplain would say I am not christian because I am "gay" and I'd still be stuck in... Oh well just a thought...
 
Not that they don't ask: http://www.medicalcorpse.com/poisonedpizza.html

Nevertheless...

99% of the time, no one in the military will be asking anesthesiologists how to poison pizzas or harm people (intentionally, vs. bringing them to harm due to inadequate medical/nursing/support/infrastructure capabilities of devolving MTFs...but I shan't "hijack" this thread to elaborate further).
R



i must be the "special one" since I fall into the 1% of time:laugh:
 
i must be the "special one" since I fall into the 1% of time:laugh:

I always told you you were special. Now Our Fine Merkin GOB Aggie Flight Commander absentee landlord, he was plain stupid.

--
R
 
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