PhD/PsyD Enrolled in the PsyD online program: Looking for a study partner

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Hi
I will be starting with PsyD in Jan 2020. I would like a study partner/group for mutual support and guidance. Is anyone doing a similar program interested? In-person/skype/WhatsApp

location: Sunnyvale/Santa Clara/South San Jose (CA)

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Hi
I will be starting with PsyD in Jan 2020. I would like a study partner/group for mutual support and guidance. Is anyone doing a similar program interested? In-person/skype/WhatsApp

location: Sunnyvale/Santa Clara/South San Jose (CA)
May I ask why you have decided to enroll in an online PsyD program?

I am sorry to deliver this message, but getting licensed and working in this field will be incredibly difficult, even in CA where APA-accreditation is not statutorily required. The vast majority of training as a psychologist is hands-on (e.g. shadowing your supervisor as they conduct clinical interviews/testing/therapy; then performing the same while your supervisor watches you and gives direct feedback, etc.) Testing materials are very expensive and access to them is restricted - you won't get this training online, and it's the only thing that distinguishes psychologists from master's degree level therapists. It is difficult to imagine you would get anywhere near the appropriate number of hours to qualify for an internship, let alone get into an internship coming from an online program. Internships are required for licensure in California. Most internships require that you attended an APA-accredited program. The majority of students who start online programs drop out before they are finished, or do not go one to pass the licensing exam. You can look up the exam pass-rate for your program, let me know if you need the link and I will provide it. This choice has a high risk of being financially ruinous. You are in a major metropolitan area - it would make far more sense in terms of your financial well-being to obtain a mental health degree in person somewhere (San Jose State?) Online psychology degrees are not well-regarded, despite what their marketing materials tell you. They are a rip-off at best, and a scam at worst.
 
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Hi, Thanks. You raised a valid concern. I thought carefully about it and went through a whole list of schools available for me.

I already have a Master's in Psychology. I want to go for a higher degree than the one I already do. MFT programs would be repetitive of things I earlier did during masters. Besides, the doctorate has greater chances for employability. After consulting a life coach and career counselor, they assured that employers are aware that online education is the future. There is no need to be skeptical about it (unless it is a bad program)

The university I am opting for has a low fee, has approachable advisors and is regionally approved and has good reviews. Also, I might not wait for the last year to look for an internship. I have already begun to contact the network I could work with. I am aware that licensure requires proper field-work. But, The APA approved schools are far more expensive, have really bad reviews and also are far from my home to travel on a daily basis and also do not have a full guarantee for internships. Chances of employment are low even with APA and the high amount of fees. I am eliminating the debt. While I will still have a scope of license, private practice and employment too.

Finally one has to be good at what they do. I have worked in the UK and in my home country where I have had hands-on experience in a variety of clinical settings as a Psychologist (Masters is sufficient as per their rules). I have had rigorous training, supervision and dealt with difficult clientele in prestigious institutions. That said, I am counting on my efforts of 9 years and volunteer work I did at Stanford university too.

If the PsyD plan turns out uglier than I thought, I guess with all the training of 4-5 years I might do at least something?

.




May I ask why you have decided to enroll in an online PsyD program?

I am sorry to deliver this message, but getting licensed and working in this field will be incredibly difficult, even in CA where APA-accreditation is not statutorily required. The vast majority of training as a psychologist is hands-on (e.g. shadowing your supervisor as they conduct clinical interviews/testing/therapy; then performing the same while your supervisor watches you and gives direct feedback, etc.) Testing materials are very expensive and access to them is restricted - you won't get this training online, and it's the only thing that distinguishes psychologists from master's degree level therapists. It is difficult to imagine you would get anywhere near the appropriate number of hours to qualify for an internship, let alone get into an internship coming from an online program. Internships are required for licensure in California. Most internships require that you attended an APA-accredited program. The majority of students who start online programs drop out before they are finished, or do not go one to pass the licensing exam. You can look up the exam pass-rate for your program, let me know if you need the link and I will provide it. This choice has a high risk of being financially ruinous. You are in a major metropolitan area - it would make far more sense in terms of your financial well-being to obtain a mental health degree in person somewhere (San Jose State?) Online psychology degrees are not well-regarded, despite what their marketing materials tell you. They are a rip-off at best, and a scam at worst.
 
Thanks again. I see your genuine concern. The License rate of my online program is really low. It is a little appalling to know about access to testing materials. But, let me check if I can make up for it, using friends back home who use them often.

May I ask why you have decided to enroll in an online PsyD program?

I am sorry to deliver this message, but getting licensed and working in this field will be incredibly difficult, even in CA where APA-accreditation is not statutorily required. The vast majority of training as a psychologist is hands-on (e.g. shadowing your supervisor as they conduct clinical interviews/testing/therapy; then performing the same while your supervisor watches you and gives direct feedback, etc.) Testing materials are very expensive and access to them is restricted - you won't get this training online, and it's the only thing that distinguishes psychologists from master's degree level therapists. It is difficult to imagine you would get anywhere near the appropriate number of hours to qualify for an internship, let alone get into an internship coming from an online program. Internships are required for licensure in California. Most internships require that you attended an APA-accredited program. The majority of students who start online programs drop out before they are finished, or do not go one to pass the licensing exam. You can look up the exam pass-rate for your program, let me know if you need the link and I will provide it. This choice has a high risk of being financially ruinous. You are in a major metropolitan area - it would make far more sense in terms of your financial well-being to obtain a mental health degree in person somewhere (San Jose State?) Online psychology degrees are not well-regarded, despite what their marketing materials tell you. They are a rip-off at best, and a scam at worst.
 
After consulting a life coach and career counselor, they assured that employers are aware that online education is the future. There is no need to be skeptical about it (unless it is a bad program)

Hi, I'm a licensed psychologist who has served on hiring and admissions panels, so I can give you insight on the employer perspective as well as that of a member of the psychology profession.

Unfortunately, you have been given some extremely misleading advice. I'm not sure why you did not seek advice from a member of the profession you are trying to enter (i.e., a psychologist and not a life coach or a career counselor - how would they know?). However, you have an opportunity to get out now. The path that you're on will render you unemployable in many places, and as you've learned, is unlikely to lead to licensure at all.

I'm not saying these things to be provocative. You're fortunate that you've not yet started, so you can still change your plans. I urge you to do so.
 
Hi,
Thanks. You do not give jobs to those who have earned a license and are good at their work... only because they did an online degree?



Hi, I'm a licensed psychologist who has served on hiring and admissions panels, so I can give you insight on the employer perspective as well as that of a member of the psychology profession.

Unfortunately, you have been given some extremely misleading advice. I'm not sure why you did not seek advice from a member of the profession you are trying to enter (i.e., a psychologist and not a life coach or a career counselor - how would they know?). However, you have an opportunity to get out now. The path that you're on will render you unemployable in many places, and as you've learned, is unlikely to lead to licensure at all.

I'm not saying these things to be provocative. You're fortunate that you've not yet started, so you can still change your plans. I urge you to do so.
 
and here. we. go.
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After consulting a life coach and career counselor, they assured that employers are aware that online education is the future. There is no need to be skeptical about it (unless it is a bad program)

Several professionals on this board would disagree. Granted, we don’t hold the esteemed title of “life coach.”

Were any of these “career counselors” trying to enroll you in the online program?
 
Hi,
Thanks. You do not give jobs to those who have earned a license and are good at their work... only because they did an online degree?

Correct, and I will explain why. Because I know that a reputable doctoral program in clinical psychology will require thousands of hours of face-to-face training, supervision, and clinical experience in a variety of practica. No online program can replicate that. Doctoral training is very much like a full time job. One learns best by doing the work, closely supervised, and preferably in an environment that resembles a future work setting. I would feel no differently if I were weighing in on the decision to hire a nurse or physician or other healthcare professional.

For the record, some of my grad school classmates also came in with master's degrees and prior work experience, and they didn't get to skip classes or jump the line. There really is that much more to learn and experience.
 
OP, if you didn't already know it, you've just learned that there is a contingent of licensed psychologists that look down on online PsyD degress. Hmm, "look down" isn't strong enough of a description; They LOATHE online PsyD degrees with a fire and passion that is truly something to behold.

I am taking the same online PsyD path as you, but I have already worked out the details--I already have my post PsyD California internship and employment lined up. I am not worried that people here would toss my application in the trash--I am not seeking an internship/employment with their agency. Also, I couldn't care less if online bullies look down on me 🙂. I think it's funny, actually. That said, if it bothers you, then you should consider aborting your plans.

Should you pursue on online PsyD degree that isn't APA accredited? I wouldn't presume to tell you yes or no, because I don't know your situation. For me it was a no-brainer, but my situation is unique. It's safe to say I'm not your average online PsyD student. I do believe that many online PsyD students don't do their homework and then are surprised/blindsided to learn about the hurdles that await them down the road. My suggestion to you is to not totally ignore what people here say, but take it all with a grain of salt. Most importantly, talk to prospective internship sites/employers now to determine if they will accept your degree. Don't wait until you are halfway through with your program or later to find out that it's going to be a dead end. Any path is fraught with risks--know what the risks are with this one by reaching out to potential internship/employment sites now to make sure your degree won't be an obstacle. That is all.
 
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Thanks again. I see your genuine concern. The License rate of my online program is really low. It is a little appalling to know about access to testing materials. But, let me check if I can make up for it, using friends back home who use them often.
Psychology is a great field, however there are no shortcuts. Best case scenario is that you’ve been misled. Worst case scenario is you’ve been exploited and taken advantage of by a predatory program that knows full well that it has little to no chance of helping you meet your career goals. I’m truly sorry that this happened to you within the context of my field. Please- get out of this before you end up losing more money and time.
 
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OP, if you didn't already know it, you've just learned that there is a contingent of licensed psychologists that look down on online PsyD degress. Hmm, "look down" isn't strong enough of a description; They LOATHE online PsyD degrees with a fire and passion that is truly something to behold.

I am taking the same online PsyD path as you, but I have already worked out the details--I already have my post PsyD California internship and employment lined up. I am not worried that people here would toss my application in the trash--I am not seeking an internship/employment with their agency. Also, I couldn't care less if online bullies look down on me 🙂. I think it's funny, actually. That said, if it bothers you, then you should consider aborting your plans.

Should you pursue on online PsyD degree that isn't APA accredited? I wouldn't presume to tell you yes or no, because I don't know your situation. For me it was a no-brainer, but my situation is unique. It's safe to say I'm not your average online PsyD student. I do believe that many online PsyD students don't do their homework and then are surprised/blindsided to learn about the hurdles that await them down the road. My suggestion to you is to not totally ignore what people here say, but take it all with a grain of salt. Most importantly, talk to prospective internship sites/employers now to determine if they will accept your degree. Don't wait until you are halfway through with your program or later to find out that it's going to be a dead end. Any path is fraught with risks--know what the risks are with this one by reaching out to potential internship/employment sites now to make sure your degree won't be an obstacle. That is all.
It’s not bullying to give honest feedback as a professional in the field.

I’ll never understand why someone would want to get into this field with a degree that requires them to worry/wonder/inquire if it’s an obstacle or not.

At any rate, this thread will be interesting.
 
Now, I thought this was the kinder, gentler more woke SDN psych forum. Do we not want our online PsyD students and colleagues to feel welcome here?
 
Just stop.
No one ever said that honest feedback and dialog was a problem. This is a straw man if I ever saw one.


No, it's a question to ponder. What perspectives are welcome here. @Contextual Model clearly feels that the community is not giving those enrolled in online programs a fair shake. Are you not taking that feedback seriously?
 
I’ll repeat what I’ve said:

It is likely an error to assume one can give less effort as others and receive the same benefit.

Psychologist give up 5-7 years of their lives, earning potential, and very geographic location in order to get where they want to be. They will likely look down on someone who is trying to not sacrifice those things, regardless of licensure.

@Sanman not everyone agreed to those terms. Some accepted the consequences long ago. You should know, oldest poster here.
 
No, it's a question to ponder. What perspectives are welcome here. @Contextual Model clearly feels that the community is not giving those enrolled in online programs a fair shake. Are you not taking that feedback seriously?

Actually yes, I am taking that perspective seriously, as we all should. Taking it seriously does not mean we agree with it, but it does mean that we respond with honest feedback.
This is qualitatively different than the other thread, in which posters voiced concern that certain demographics led to different responses (vs the content of their posts).
But this exchange is now derailing the thread.
 
Actually yes, I am taking that perspective seriously, as we all should. Taking it seriously does not mean we agree with it, but it does mean that we respond with honest feedback.
This is qualitatively different than the other thread, in which posters voiced concern that certain demographics led to different responses (vs the content of their posts).
But this exchange is now derailing the thread.

Well, I'd argue the demographics here bias the responses as well since just about none of us have been through an online program. We all went to brick and mortar schools. It is simply that there aren't the voices here to make the opposing argument with the exception of one poster in the community.
 
Well, I'd argue the demographics here bias the responses as well since just about none of us have been through an online program. We all went to brick and mortar schools. It is simply that there aren't the voices here to make the opposing argument with the exception of one poster in the community.
It's late and my brain is foggy, but the difference as I see it is a) going to an online school is a choice, vs. gender which is not a choice, and b) there are strong data behind the arguments against online schools. Also, your use of "kinder, gentler" and "woke" (a term I loathe) implied that the other thread was going in that direction vs. asking for a discussion. Which goes back to a point I made in that thread that I've never been looking personally for empathy, kindness, or gentleness, but to be invited to partake in serious discussion without disparagement or dismissal.
 
I’ll repeat what I’ve said:

It is likely an error to assume one can give less effort as others and receive the same benefit.

Psychologist give up 5-7 years of their lives, earning potential, and very geographic location in order to get where they want to be. They will likely look down on someone who is trying to not sacrifice those things, regardless of licensure.

@Sanman not everyone agreed to those terms. Some accepted the consequences long ago. You should know, oldest poster here.

Absolutely. But for those who did, I am curious how inclusive we should be as a community. Is just gender demographics that matter? Racial demographics? Or where you go to school and the type of education that is received?

If we are going to be inclusive that should extend to all groups. If you're an equal opportunity offender, offend away IMO.
 
OP, if you didn't already know it, you've just learned that there is a contingent of licensed psychologists that look down on online PsyD degress. Hmm, "look down" isn't strong enough of a description; They LOATHE online PsyD degrees with a fire and passion that is truly something to behold.

The only thing I loathe about online psychology doctoral degrees (PsyD or PhD) is the predatory nature of their marketing tactics. The marketing is quite misleading, and the tuition and fees are generally out of step with accredited programs.

Otherwise, I don't "loathe" such programs. I know that they are simply not equivalent to training programs that require 5-7 years of full time, on-site training. The facts speak for themselves; unfortunately prospective students seldom know what they don't know. But there are many threads on this topic, and I won't belabor the point because others have made it more thoroughly and it's all just a board search away.

I am taking the same online PsyD path as you, but I have already worked out the details--I already have my post PsyD California internship and employment lined up.

Your situation sounds unusual, certainly not representative of most applicants to online programs. I'm not sure how you pulled off a pre-emptive offer of employment, but best of luck to you.
 
Absolutely. But for those who did, I am curious how inclusive we should be as a community. Is just gender demographics that matter? Racial demographics? Or where you go to school and the type of education that is received?

If we are going to be inclusive that should extend to all groups. If you're an equal opportunity offender, offend away IMO.

Y'all take this... somewhere else.
 
FWIW...online training does not fit well with the field bc of the intense hands-on learning required, in addition to the learning that occurs outside of the classroom that has not yet been replicated by online programs.

A more practical consideration is that licensure will be an uphill battle. If a person can get licensed, then they have to convince employers to take a chance on them when a plethora of applicants from traditional programs are also applying. Add in that California is over-saturated with licensed clinicians (MA/MS/PhD/PsyD), it is definitely not advisable to pursue online training.

I’m just one person, but i’m also in a hiring position and i’d trust a masters trained and licensed person from a traditional program over anyone with online training. It’s not worth the risk when there are plenty of applicants.

I hope you consider all of the different opinions on here bc many of us are out and practicing and are trying to help you avoid a very costly mistake.
 
It's late and my brain is foggy, but the difference as I see it is a) going to an online school is a choice, vs. gender which is not a choice, and b) there are strong data behind the arguments against online schools. Also, your use of "kinder, gentler" and "woke" (a term I loathe) implied that the other thread was going in that direction vs. asking for a discussion. Which goes back to a point I made in that thread that I've never been looking personally for empathy, kindness, or gentleness, but to be invited to partake in serious discussion without disparagement or dismissal.

But isn't disparagement and dismissal from others regarding the online training model from an OP that never asked for opinions regarding their choice in training exactly what is happening here? I'm sure the OP appreciates the opinions of people in the real world, but those opinions were never solicited. Hence the reason I was curious about inclusion.
 
OP, if you didn't already know it, you've just learned that there is a contingent of licensed psychologists that look down on online PsyD degress. Hmm, "look down" isn't strong enough of a description; They LOATHE online PsyD degrees with a fire and passion that is truly something to behold.

I am taking the same online PsyD path as you, but I have already worked out the details--I already have my post PsyD California internship and employment lined up. I am not worried that people here would toss my application in the trash--I am not seeking an internship/employment with their agency. Also, I couldn't care less if online bullies look down on me 🙂. I think it's funny, actually. That said, if it bothers you, then you should consider aborting your plans.

Should you pursue on online PsyD degree that isn't APA accredited? I wouldn't presume to tell you yes or no, because I don't know your situation. For me it was a no-brainer, but my situation is unique. It's safe to say I'm not your average online PsyD student. I do believe that many online PsyD students don't do their homework and then are surprised/blindsided to learn about the hurdles that await them down the road. My suggestion to you is to not totally ignore what people here say, but take it all with a grain of salt. Most importantly, talk to prospective internship sites/employers now to determine if they will accept your degree. Don't wait until you are halfway through with your program or later to find out that it's going to be a dead end. Any path is fraught with risks--know what the risks are with this one by reaching out to potential internship/employment sites now to make sure your degree won't be an obstacle. That is all.
Ok, let's say that you're really "not your average online PsyD student" and that you have all these things worked out.

What happens if the internship site closes or that they just decide to not provide the training before you're able to start? Or maybe they just can't stay open for whatever reason even if you've already started there? How are you going to find another site for an internship?

What happens if your employer is a huge jerk and you can't stand to work for them, they are engaging in unethical behavior or illegal activities (e.g., Medicare fraud), or they just aren't financially solvent and shut down? How will you find another employer that will accept your non-standard training? Even if you can find an employer, how can you ensure that you won't be taken advantage of (e.g., taking a huge cut of your reimbursements), because employers know that your non-standard training limits your opportunities?

What if you want to move out of state for some reason (e.g., partner got a new job; your kid has to go to the Mayo Clinic because they have some rare, chronic illness)? How are you going to get licensed in other states with your non-standard training?

Also, would you be willing to tell every patient upfront that you have an online degree from an unaccredited program? If not, why not?
 
But isn't disparagement and dismissal from others regarding the online training model from an OP that never asked for opinions regarding their choice in training exactly what is happening here? I'm sure the OP appreciates the opinions of people in the real world, but those opinions were never solicited. Hence the reason I was curious about inclusion.
No, the OP got honest & respectful responses from a variety of perspectives. It’s not disparaging to offer an unsolicited opinion on a public message board. But let’s stop this tangent, ok?
 
No, the OP got honest & respectful responses from a variety of perspectives. It’s not disparaging to offer an unsolicited opinion on a public message board. But let’s stop this tangent, ok?

We can stop with the tangent. However, I continue to see parallels between this and the other thread. But, it is good to know that unsolicited opinions that might upset the OP or other readers are okay on a public message board.
 
I’ll repeat what I’ve said:

It is likely an error to assume one can give less effort as others and receive the same benefit.

Psychologist give up 5-7 years of their lives, earning potential, and very geographic location in order to get where they want to be. They will likely look down on someone who is trying to not sacrifice those things, regardless of licensure.

@Sanman not everyone agreed to those terms. Some accepted the consequences long ago. You should know, oldest poster here.

PsyDr, I totally get it. If you knew the details of my situation, you'd likely resent me even more. I'm already making six figures in my job during the two years it's taking me to complete my PsyD program, which will cost me about 30 grand. You are right that I'm making a fraction of the sacrifice of those giving 5-7 years of blood, sweat, and tears, not to mention depressed earnings during that time. Heck, I'd be resentful, too. I'll take a hit as an unlicensed psychologist for a couple of years when I'll make mid 90k, but then my earnings will begin to surpass my current income by around 15-20 grand a year once I get licensed. For me, this whole PsyD thing is an entirely financial calculation--I could give a rat's azz about anybody calling me doctor.

But I'm really not writing to the regular posters on this board, I'm writing to the OP and the countless lurkers that are only getting one perspective from this board on the risks and benefits of online PsyD degrees. Color me cynical regarding claims of concern for online psyd students welfare. Please.
 
PsyDr, I totally get it. If you knew the details of my situation, you'd likely resent me even more. I'm already making six figures in my job during the two years it's taking me to complete my PsyD program, which will cost me about 30 grand. You are right that I'm making a fraction of the sacrifice of those giving 5-7 years of blood, sweat, and tears, not to mention depressed earnings during that time. Heck, I'd be resentful, too. I'll take a hit as an unlicensed psychologist for a couple of years when I'll make mid 90k, but then my earnings will begin to surpass my current income by around 15-20 grand a year once I get licensed. For me, this whole PsyD thing is an entirely financial calculation--I could give a rat's azz about anybody calling me doctor.

But I'm really not writing to the regular posters on this board, I'm writing to the OP and the countless lurkers that are only getting one perspective from this board on the risks and benefits of online PsyD degrees. Color me cynical regarding claims of concern for online psyd students welfare. Please.

I'm curious what you will do if you are unable to be licensed as a psychologist. Are you already licensed at the master's level?
 
OP, if you didn't already know it, you've just learned that there is a contingent of licensed psychologists that look down on online PsyD degress. Hmm, "look down" isn't strong enough of a description; They LOATHE online PsyD degrees with a fire and passion that is truly something to behold.

I am taking the same online PsyD path as you, but I have already worked out the details--I already have my post PsyD California internship and employment lined up. I am not worried that people here would toss my application in the trash--I am not seeking an internship/employment with their agency. Also, I couldn't care less if online bullies look down on me 🙂. I think it's funny, actually. That said, if it bothers you, then you should consider aborting your plans.

Should you pursue on online PsyD degree that isn't APA accredited? I wouldn't presume to tell you yes or no, because I don't know your situation. For me it was a no-brainer, but my situation is unique. It's safe to say I'm not your average online PsyD student. I do believe that many online PsyD students don't do their homework and then are surprised/blindsided to learn about the hurdles that await them down the road. My suggestion to you is to not totally ignore what people here say, but take it all with a grain of salt. Most importantly, talk to prospective internship sites/employers now to determine if they will accept your degree. Don't wait until you are halfway through with your program or later to find out that it's going to be a dead end. Any path is fraught with risks--know what the risks are with this one by reaching out to potential internship/employment sites now to make sure your degree won't be an obstacle. That is all.

This reply is more for the OP than for Contextual but OP be cautious because plans like the above rely on a lot of assumptions to work out. A few things to keep in mind:

1) many sites that used to accept non-APA applicants are changing their standards to only accept people from APA accredited schools and APA accredited internships. Thus the available employment opportunities may shrink. Some people who are in hiring positions now that promise future jobs or are ok with online programs may not be in those positions once you get to that stage.

2) many people say, “that’s fine, I will work for my own or someone else’s private practice.” There will be a recession at some point in the near future and the private practice market is likely to take a hit so money may be tight or positions may disappear altogether for a while. When recessions hit many people go back to school,so there may be more competition and saturation of applicants for jobs.

3) having one place to pin your employment hopes on seems risky because what if your interests change during school or during your career, the position is cut due to finances or funding, or the job is a nightmare?

*On a side note, I would not want to work somewhere that was ready to offer/promise me a job post licensure when I was still in the middle of a degree program before they are able assess my skills and competencies as a doctoral level provider. This either means that they think my skills are fine now and see a doctoral degree as only a piece of paper (which is scary) or they assume I’ll be a perfectly competent doctoral practitioner without completing an education that meets the field’s training standards (which seems incredibly risky). I’d worry that a place that makes hiring decisions like this is likely to have some other possibly shady things going on or be providing an extremely low standard of care.
 
We can stop with the tangent. However, I continue to see parallels between this and the other thread. But, it is good to know that unsolicited opinions that might upset the OP or other readers are okay on a public message board.

The only actual parallels between this and the other thread that I see is that 1) female posters such as @StellaB , @MamaPhD , and @Psycycle are over-functioning to demonstrate how to model the skill of helping the comparatively ignorant poster and 2) @Sanman is dying to call attention to himself with mean, pseudo-contrarian, and self-indulgent comments. [shrug!]
 
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PsyDr, I totally get it. If you knew the details of my situation, you'd likely resent me even more. I'm already making six figures in my job during the two years it's taking me to complete my PsyD program, which will cost me about 30 grand. You are right that I'm making a fraction of the sacrifice of those giving 5-7 years of blood, sweat, and tears, not to mention depressed earnings during that time. Heck, I'd be resentful, too. I'll take a hit as an unlicensed psychologist for a couple of years when I'll make mid 90k, but then my earnings will begin to surpass my current income by around 15-20 grand a year once I get licensed. For me, this whole PsyD thing is an entirely financial calculation--I could give a rat's azz about anybody calling me doctor.

But I'm really not writing to the regular posters on this board, I'm writing to the OP and the countless lurkers that are only getting one perspective from this board on the risks and benefits of online PsyD degrees. Color me cynical regarding claims of concern for online psyd students welfare. Please.

If you're already making six figures, why are you e tven bothering with another degree? Psychology isn't exactly a high paying field unless you're highly specialized (e.g. neuro) with a lot of experience. Also, the median salary for psychologists isn't even $90k so I have no idea where you're getting that figure from.

Depending on the state, it will be difficult/near impossible for you to get licensed without graduating from an appropriately (read: APA) accredited program, but go off.
 
PsyDr, I totally get it. If you knew the details of my situation, you'd likely resent me even more. I'm already making six figures in my job during the two years it's taking me to complete my PsyD program, which will cost me about 30 grand. You are right that I'm making a fraction of the sacrifice of those giving 5-7 years of blood, sweat, and tears, not to mention depressed earnings during that time. Heck, I'd be resentful, too. I'll take a hit as an unlicensed psychologist for a couple of years when I'll make mid 90k, but then my earnings will begin to surpass my current income by around 15-20 grand a year once I get licensed. For me, this whole PsyD thing is an entirely financial calculation--I could give a rat's azz about anybody calling me doctor.

But I'm really not writing to the regular posters on this board, I'm writing to the OP and the countless lurkers that are only getting one perspective from this board on the risks and benefits of online PsyD degrees. Color me cynical regarding claims of concern for online psyd students welfare. Please.

Most of us don’t resent people who make good money and we make good money ourselves. Many of us don’t respect clinicians who make money off of wasting patients’ time and money by providing a low standard of care because it was a better “financial decision” for the clinician.
 
The only actual parallels between this and the other thread that I see is that 1) female posters such as @StellaB , @MamaPhD , and @Psycycle are over-functioning to demonstrate how to model the skill of helping the comparatively ignorant poster and 2) @Sanman is dying to call attention to himself with mean, pseudo-contrarian, and self-indulgent comments. [shrug!]

Always appreciate your insightful and helpful contributions to recent threads.
 
Your situation sounds unusual, certainly not representative of most applicants to online programs. I'm not sure how you pulled off a pre-emptive offer of employment, but best of luck to you.
You are quite right about my unusual circumstances and not being representative of most students. That is why I wouldn't encourage others to take the online psyd route without knowing more about their situation. Heck, I'd probably even try to discourage most from doing it. But make no mistake, risks and costs should inform any path-choice--and that includes brick and mortar programs. A brick and mortar program for me, for example, would make zero sense. Regarding the path I'm on, it's also true that any number of events could torpedo my plans, however improbable they might be. If my psyd plan doesn't come to fruition, it wouldn't significantly impact my life, happiness, and prospects going forward.
 
A little off topic but this is concerning online programs. I don't think online PsyD are a good idea in terms of licensure and career opportunities and being a good clinician. What I find crazy is how an RN with no RN experience anymore does an online PMHNP program.The tests are open book and open notes. Then when you graduate in 2 years with 500 clinical hours you can get a job around the $150-250k range. Meanwhile psychologists go to school for 5-8 years and the first job offer they receive will not be in that $150-250k range. F&%$ing insane if you ask me.
 
Many of us don’t respect clinicians who make money off of wasting patients’ time and money by providing a low standard of care because it was a better “financial decision” for the clinician.
Mindful, you make an important self-serving assumption here, one that is devoid of the facts around this case and also one that is not supported by the psychotherapy outcome literature. It's ironic that brick and mortar APA types aren't familiar with the research that undermines their own self-interested biases. Deliciously so.

Listen, I get that this is painful. How can it not be? But slandering others for providing substandard care with no basis, empirically or otherwise, isn't a good look for you.
 
Mindful, you make an important self-serving assumption here, one that is devoid of the facts around this case and also one that is not supported by the psychotherapy outcome literature. It's ironic that brick and mortar APA types aren't familiar with the research that undermines their own self-interested biases. Deliciously so.

Listen, I get that this is painful. How can it not be? But slandering others for providing substandard care with no basis, empirically or otherwise, isn't a good look for you.

JFC, man. You are bringing a jello knife to a nuclear war. Don’t do this. I’m sure it feeds your ego to stand up for your own choices, but it harms young students who want to believe that they are exceptional enough to overcome a truly toxic level of debt.
 
Mindful, you make an important self-serving assumption here, one that is devoid of the facts around this case and also one that is not supported by the psychotherapy outcome literature. It's ironic that brick and mortar APA types aren't familiar with the research that undermines their own self-interested biases. Deliciously so.

Listen, I get that this is painful. How can it not be? But slandering others for providing substandard care with no basis, empirically or otherwise, isn't a good look for you.

Huh? I didn’t mention anything about you. I was referring to the general concern of professionals in our field that patient care will be negatively impacted by clinicians in our field who received poorer training because it was more financially viable or convenient for the clinician.

In terms of assumptions, I counted at least 3 incorrect ones that you made about me in your post chastising me for making assumptions about you (that I didn’t make) :claps:. In fact the post was a reply to your post in which you made many assumptions about us, such as that we resent you for your income and your choice to pursue a less rigorous training path.

And sure- I’ll bite. For the sake of everyone’s enlightenment- please post a link to the studies that show that clinicians who get on-line doctorates practice evidence based therapies at equivalent rates and get outcomes across diagnoses and settings that are equivalent to those who get doctorates from APA accredited B&M programs.
 
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JFC, man. You are bringing a jello knife to a nuclear war. Don’t do this. I’m sure it feeds your ego to stand up for your own choices, but it harms young students who want to believe that they are exceptional enough to overcome a truly toxic level of debt.
Jello knife, good one!

Listen, I agree that it makes zero sense to incur toxic levels of debt to get any psychology degree, online or otherwise. Indeed, many people are inflicting self-harm in the form of debt that will negatively impact their lives for DECADES. The constant message from this forum warning prospective students about crippling debt has served an important public service.
 
I personally know two people who pursued online PsyD’s from California southern university. One of them was unanimously kicked out of my state school PhD program for falsifying medical records, and practiced as a masters level clinician with fake online reviews written by his wife that made it sound like he was a psychologist. The other was my dental hygienist. As she was nearing completion of the program, she has never heard of the WAIS. Tells me all I need to know.
 
And sure- I’ll bite. For the sake of everyone’s enlightenment- please post a link to the studies that show that clinicians who get on-line doctorates practice evidence based therapies at equivalent rates and get outcomes across diagnoses and settings that are equivalent to those who get doctorates from APA accredited B&M programs.
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Ah, to my knowledge, no research has compared the treatment outcomes of B&M students vs online students, so that remains an open question. My argument is that b&m phds have no evidence to claim treatment outcome superiority over clinicians with any other type or level of training, including online psyd trainees. For example, I've never seen any evidence that phd's produce better outcomes than master's level clinicians. I've seen studies finding no differences, but none that found superior outcomes for psychologists. If you know of any, I'd sure love to see them because I've scoured the databases and have come up dry.

But I have found the following studies, basically reviews of the relevant literature:

After a review of the relevant literature comparing the effect sizes of amount and type of training, Beutler et al., (2004) concluded that "no clear pattern of effects were observable..." (p. 239).

After his review, uber-psychotherapy outcome researcher (and my hero) Wampold (2017, p. 59) stated that "Generally...the profession of the therapist (e.g. psychology, psychiatry, social work, professional counseling) does not predict outcome."

Miller, Hubble and Chow (2018) take it even further after their review in challenging the effects of rigorous psychotherapy training by concluding that "Study after study reveals that degreed professionals perform no better than students" (p. 2).

Last, but not least, in the most pointed critique of psychologist training, Malouff (2011) reviewed the literature and succinctly concluded that "Overall research findings provide little support for the idea that typical professional training of psychologists leads to better outcomes for their psychotherapy clients" (p. 29). Ouch! Hey Malouff, couldn't you soften it at least a little bit? But no--he then piles on with "There appears to be no evidence to suggest that coursework and research completion, which make up a great deal of required psychology training, have any value to future psychotherapy clients of the students" (p. 30). I also recommend Ladany's (2007) entertaining review of the same topic. His article had me laughing out loud.

None of this is to say that the above conclusions are the final word on the matter. Yet, I haven't found any reviews of the outcome literature (or any individual studies for that matter) arguing for superior outcomes for psychologists. Yet, psychotherapy outcome research is messy and controversial. Moreover, research comparing outcomes of clinicians with different training backgrounds really hasn't been thoroughly investigated. On considering the "...dearth of research investigating client outcomes across counselor training levels...", Nyman et al., (2011) speculated that "It may be that researchers are loathe to face the possibility that the extensive efforts involved in educating graduate students to become licensed professionals results in no observable differences in client outcome" (p. 12).

Thus, although there is no research investigating outcomes of b&m vs online clinicians that I'm aware of, given the dreary findings comparing psychologists' outcomes with everybody else (e.g. paraprofessionals, students, master's level clinicians), what would be the evidentiary basis for claims that b&m psychologists generate superior treatment outcomes over primarily online-trained psychologists? Maybe the evidence will exist someday, but until it does, and in light of the above research findings, I'm skeptical of psychologists' claims of treatment outcome superiority over anybody. Like I said, if anyone here has any relevant outcome research to the contrary, I'd genuinely love to see it.

I really don't expect to persuade the minds of regular posters on this board; I'm not that naive. But for the many lurkers, and surely there are many, I hope to present a divergent viewpoint from the majority at SDN. Who knows, maybe I'll post again some day if they don't ban me from the site 😛.

Beutler et al. (2004). Therapist Variables. In Bergin and Garfield's handbook of psychotherapy and behavior change, 5th ed.

Ladany, N. (2007). Does psychotherapy training matter? Maybe not. Psychotherapy: Theory, Research, Practice, Training, 44(4), 392-396.

Malouff, J. (2012). The need for empirically supported psychology training standards. Psychotherapy in Australia, 18(3), 28-32

Miller, S. D., Hubble, M. A., & Chow, D. (2018). The question of expertise in psychotherapy. Journal of Expertise, 1(2), 121-129.

Nyman, S. J., Nafziger, M. A., & Smith, T. B. (2010). Client Outcomes Across Counselor Training Level Within a Multitiered Supervision Model. Journal of counseling and development, 88, 204-209.

Wampold, B. E. (2017). What should we practice? A contextual model (hey look! contextual model! get it?) for how psychotherapy works. In T. Rousmaniere, R. K. Goodyear, S. D. Miller, & B. E. Wampold (Eds.), The cycle of excellence: Using deliberate practice to improve supervision and training (pp. 49-67). Hoboken, NJ: Wiley.
 
It's always nice to wake up to entertaining presents on the board.

OP, I am also on the team that goes over new psychologist hires. You would be ineligible for any position in our hospital system. We are a majority of the healthcare delivered in the state after our recent merger. Additionally, we have a local online program. I've never actually seen their graduated independently perform psychology here. One reason being that it is incredibly hard for them to meet waiver requirements for our state board. I have seen some working as techs though. Seems like an expensive degree to get to top out at 40k.
 
As someone who did a good portion of my training in California, I also want to add that the market there is particularly over-saturated. You're more likely to get employed there because California has a more relaxed view of non-traditional programs (IMO) but I'm guessing that the jobs won't pay particularly well and getting supervised experience for licensure may be difficult. Plus, you always run the risk that you're competing with other people who also want to live in California and have a more traditional training background.
 
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