Does age matter? Or just your health matters? Have you seen surgeons starting their residency in the 40-45 age range? Will it be harder to get accepted for residency at this age range?
Entering surgery residency at 42 y old. What would be the max in your opinion?
- Thread starter saoj
- Start date
In that order: Neurosurgery (at 42!?), Vascular surgery, Orthopaedic surgery and Neonatal surgery. The latter I chose because it is the one that scares me the most... and perhaps the less competitive !? 🙂
Last edited:
Starting next week, at 36 sharp. Plan to apply this year for few schools if I feel secure about mcat or next year to make a safe bet. Neuro is 2 years more than the regular 5-year residency in surgery, right?
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2011
- Messages
- 18,577
- Reaction score
- 57
You've got quite a ways to go, you might not even want to do surgery when it's time to match.
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2010
- Messages
- 189
- Reaction score
- 61
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I was speaking with an ortho surgeon who's part of the residency committee at our school and he said that older applicants have a very tough time getting positions. He said this is because they want people that they can benefit society for the most years. Meaning, a 25 year year old grad will be able to put about 15 more years of serving the community than a 40 year-old starting residency. This is anecdotal of course, and obviously they are exceptions- but it does make sense to me. If any of you are older and are interested in surgery 110%, PA school makes more sense in my eyes because they can get cutting quicker. Go for your dreams and all, but have a back up. Good luck
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2010
- Messages
- 6,208
- Reaction score
- 36
I find it hard to believe that many programs will want to train someone in specialized surgery like that when they will be an attending until they are 50. Given the nature of the job, you could easily burn out before you even reach 65. There are enough young applicants out there that they have the luxury to pick anyone they want.
Well, nothing is easy about this profession. Trying is the only way to find out. So my understanding is that it is NOT a hard requirement to be young. It is even against the law, but of course that law is non-sense as departments are free to choose whoever they want.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 7,506
- Reaction score
- 2,717
Anecdote: NJBMD started med school at 45, started vascular surg residency at 50.
Something else to think about: look at match rates for various surg specialties on nbme.org. Gen surg is not as competitive as others (DOs and IMGs get spots).
Also: look at length of fellowship as well as length of residency. A "generalist" in urology or colorectal surgery is done after about 5 years, but that's only about half done for neurosurg etc.
Also: Basketball metaphor, think John Stockton, not Michael Jordan. Neonatal surgery is 10 years of training after med school; even a stellar 25 year old looking at that path has to be Michael Jordan. A stellar 50 year old trying to match as a top draft pick is just weird.
Also: look at your parents and siblings. Health problems? Bad knees, eyes, necks? Tremors? Age at retirement? Obesity, blood pressure, diabetes? Mental health? Be very afraid.
Also: start a projection spreadsheet for what your income and debt levels will be, assuming a quarter million in student loans. You may see that working until you're 75 isn't just something you want to do, it's something you'll have to do.
For me, I'm hoping the odds of doing uro starting at 50 are slightly better than the odds of finding a unicorn in my backyard.
Best of luck to you.
Something else to think about: look at match rates for various surg specialties on nbme.org. Gen surg is not as competitive as others (DOs and IMGs get spots).
Also: look at length of fellowship as well as length of residency. A "generalist" in urology or colorectal surgery is done after about 5 years, but that's only about half done for neurosurg etc.
Also: Basketball metaphor, think John Stockton, not Michael Jordan. Neonatal surgery is 10 years of training after med school; even a stellar 25 year old looking at that path has to be Michael Jordan. A stellar 50 year old trying to match as a top draft pick is just weird.
Also: look at your parents and siblings. Health problems? Bad knees, eyes, necks? Tremors? Age at retirement? Obesity, blood pressure, diabetes? Mental health? Be very afraid.
Also: start a projection spreadsheet for what your income and debt levels will be, assuming a quarter million in student loans. You may see that working until you're 75 isn't just something you want to do, it's something you'll have to do.
For me, I'm hoping the odds of doing uro starting at 50 are slightly better than the odds of finding a unicorn in my backyard.
Best of luck to you.
QofQuimica
Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2004
- Messages
- 18,899
- Reaction score
- 4,295
OP, you are way ahead of yourself here. It's fine to think ahead a little about you interests, but at this point, your main concern should be getting As in your postbac classes and strengthening your app for med school with appropriate ECs, LORs, etc. As others have already pointed out, you may not even want to do surgery at all by the time you reach the point of residency apps. If you do, then your age alone will not prevent you from going into surgery if you are otherwise qualified to do the job.
Also, FWIW, neonatal surgery is not a residency. You'd likely do gen surg first, then specialize in pediatric surg.
Also, FWIW, neonatal surgery is not a residency. You'd likely do gen surg first, then specialize in pediatric surg.
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2010
- Messages
- 753
- Reaction score
- 275
From what I understand pediatric surgery is the most competitive of all. Getting this fellowship as a nontrad (or trad!) will probably be harder than getting into Harvard Medical School, however, a surgery residency should be possible. I agree with Q, OP you are getting ahead of yourself. Do well now and see what doors open up when the time comes.
- Joined
- May 30, 2011
- Messages
- 1,292
- Reaction score
- 13
I've been given to understand that the vast majority of surgeons are douches. You sure you want to become a douche?
I like to begin by the end. Although my objectives can definitely change in the future, by controlled or uncontrolled forces, it never hurts to think ahead. First it happens inside your head. Then outside... 😉
Thanks for all the feedback, anyways. One of the best:
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,641
- Reaction score
- 14
It is probably possible, but it will require you to be the best of the best. Having gone through med school and residency in my 40s, I believe that to be taken seriously, we have to do everything better at this age. Knowledge, stamina, maturity, patience, humility...you have to have the whole package and understand that no matter how good you are, judgements will be made about you for reasons that have nothing to do with you as a person. Njbmd is one of the exceptional people who has succeeded in her intensely competitive field, with extraordinary dedication (and she started off as a phd).
You have to ask yourself what is driving you to surgery. Is it ego? Do you truly love being in the OR? How have you made this decision? Will you be happy with a profession that is not labeled "surgeon", if your talents and skills are better suited to another specialty?
You have to ask yourself what is driving you to surgery. Is it ego? Do you truly love being in the OR? How have you made this decision? Will you be happy with a profession that is not labeled "surgeon", if your talents and skills are better suited to another specialty?
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2008
- Messages
- 256
- Reaction score
- 2
This. You physical well-being will be at issue and at stake. You'll really need to think about both of those. It's one thing for a 28-year-old to put together a string of 110-hr weeks (yes, I know about the hour limits, but trust me on this one), it's a different story entirely for a 40 or 50 year old.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,641
- Reaction score
- 14
I know you do not mean to offend, but equating age with physical limitations is a mistake. I can string together 100 hr weeks no problem, better than most of my 30 yo coworkers, because I have the good fortune of excellent health and the good judgement to not drink to excess on my nights off.
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2008
- Messages
- 256
- Reaction score
- 2
You are right; I do not mean to offend. I have noticed, however, that the 45 year olds I know have less stamina and worse physical endurance than they did at 25. Or 35. I believe the research backs up my personal observations. It is of course possible for an above-average 45 year old to outperform the average 28 year old, no argument there. But just a moment of candor: are you *sure* you haven't noticed any diminution in your physical well-being since 28?
The other point I wanted to make is that a terrible work load takes a bigger toll on an older person. So maybe you can do it, but it costs you more. Look at you, it sounds like you had to give up drinking to excess on your nights off... (come on, it's a joke).
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2006
- Messages
- 7,506
- Reaction score
- 2,717
I'm definitely not equating age with health - I'm also fortunate at 45. My age peers get exhausted just listening to what I do.
My suggestion is that pursuit of a surgical career starting after age 40 needs to include a diligent assessment of physical assets and liabilities. For example, if you've been carrying around 50-100 extra pounds since you were a teenager, you can't just lose weight (as if that were simple!) and be a fit teenager again - your knees and back aged double time for 20 years. If all of your siblings have arthritis in their hips, you have to assume you will too, and that's a legitimate factor in standing around for long periods of time. With these issues, you could practice from 25-45 before you fall down, but 45-65 could be a train wreck.
I keep thinking about the ~75 year old professors I've had, and the older surgeons I know, folks still enjoying their jobs and making huge contributions to their instutitions. You know what they have in common? Tidy waists. No belly. Even if they've had knee or hip replacements, they still hike and bike and stuff. I think about this a lot - am I realistically going to still want to be outdoors, climbing things, on my days off during intern year at age 50?!? Yikes.
Best of luck to you.
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2011
- Messages
- 95
- Reaction score
- 0
To add to this, and (disclaimer) im by no means a "certified advice giver" on these forums considering im just a freshman non trad, but common sense would immediately trigger an alarm in my head if I were in your shoes. If you go through gen surgery residency and then go on to specialize, you'll be somewhere around 49 years old. I don't know what your financial situation is, nor do I know how much money you'll be able to put towards medical school, but if you were to live to be 70 yrs old (somewhere around the median life expectancy), would you even have your loans paid off? If not, that would be a bad burden to bestow upon your family. All power to you if you wanna do it, but I think people your age who decide to go through w it are at a significant disadvantage when it comes to "getting back to the black" financially.
Nevertheless, im not toooo much behind you. If I actually make this happen, ill be hitting residency when im 34-35. These are definitely things I think about though when it comes to my financial security, as well as the well-being of my family.
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,641
- Reaction score
- 14
Dr mid, i completely agree with you that individual health is a big factor, more than the age itself.
Dotdash, i have noticed that i can no longer go out dancing until 3 am and then go to work at 7. But that's about it.
The biggest deal with starting a career at 45 is that by the time you are 20 years in, you will certainly be at the point where age will make a difference. I see many of my surgeon peers retiring in their mid 60s, and it's not because they hate their work.
Dotdash, i have noticed that i can no longer go out dancing until 3 am and then go to work at 7. But that's about it.
The biggest deal with starting a career at 45 is that by the time you are 20 years in, you will certainly be at the point where age will make a difference. I see many of my surgeon peers retiring in their mid 60s, and it's not because they hate their work.
