Residency Matching at 50+ years old

[ntds]

Overview

Age: Mid 40s
Background: First Gen, White Male
Education: Non-science
Work: unrelated to healthcare
cGPA: 2.75 upward graduate work trend, after premed could be close to 2.9, but won't breach 3.0
sGPA: 2.50 after premed coursework, this should be in the 3.25-3.50 range
MCAT: not taken yet
ECs: just getting started
Areas of interest: EM, IM, FM, and Psychiatry

If I do all things right, raise GPA in a DYI post-bac, strong MCAT, confirm passion through ECs, get admitted to DO program (Caribbean is off the table), I am extremely concerned about not matching.

It's simply not enough to get into medical school at my age. There will not be much time left to do more research, volunteering, graduate work, etc. to match 2 years later.

Based on my research, the common thread for not matching seems to be weak Step scores and/or unrealistic matching goals.

I am not finding enough anedoctal information on non-traditional older matching candidates.

I imagine there are very few, which may explain things.

Are there any place to track success and failure of DO or MD matching based on an applicant's age?

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[Rapsidy]

I know Goro often says that some of his best students are the ones in their 30’s and 40’s, so by that high praise I would also assume that those students also have relatively good match rates. If your interests don’t change drastically, you aren’t looking at the most competitive specialities either which helps.

I think you’ll find that many programs would value the experience of someone who is older and has had a career or multiple jobs before being in medical school because we know how to get along with others in a work environment and have wisdom that comes with experience and age.

I don’t have exact data for you, but I wouldn’t let this fear of not matching be the thing that holds you back.

 

[xffan624]

Overview

Age: Mid 40s
Background: First Gen, White Male
Education: Non-science
Work: unrelated to healthcare
cGPA: 2.75 upward graduate work trend, after premed could be close to 2.9, but won't breach 3.0
sGPA: 2.50 after premed coursework, this should be in the 3.25-3.50 range
MCAT: not taken yet
ECs: just getting started
Areas of interest: EM, IM, FM, and Psychiatry

If I do all things right, raise GPA in a DYI post-bac, strong MCAT, confirm passion through ECs, get admitted to DO program (Caribbean is off the table), I am extremely concerned about not matching.

It's simply not enough to get into medical school at my age. There will not be much time left to do more research, volunteering, graduate work, etc. to match 2 years later.

Based on my research, the common thread for not matching seems to be weak Step scores and/or unrealistic matching goals.

I am not finding enough anedoctal information on non-traditional older matching candidates.

I imagine there are very few, which may explain things.

Are there any place to track success and failure of DO or MD matching based on an applicant's age?

I think the first question would be. Can you get into medical school? Your GPA is low to start with and you're suddenly assuming that you will have nothing but academic excellence (with difficult coursework) and a strong MCAT?

In regards to not having having the time to deal with an unsuccessful match, not matching is not like not getting into medical school. The things you would do to correct a medical school application and a unsuccessful match cycle are not the same. I would say that if you're able to get your academic ducks in a row well enough to get a medical school to take a shot on you (a feat in itself), then you're likely to have a success in the match regardless of your age. Would you match as well as a young applicant? Probably not, but lacking red flags you're unlikely to not match. If you have them, you're probably more likely to not match (i.e. the margin for error is smaller for an older applicant, but that's just my guess).

 

[My Name is Blakeeee]

I hate to be that type of person, but I don't think it is financially wise to continue forward. By the time you finish medical school plus residency, you'll be mid-50s close to your early 60s with 6 figure debt attached to your name. How long you plan on practicing is another question you'd have to ask yourself.

 

[gyngyn]

We had a fellow in his late 40's not match into IM.
He did a year of research and got into a program the following year.

 

[esob]

I know of two applicants from this cycle who are around that age and matched. Both were reasonably competitive specialties and were interviewed at arguably the top programs in their respective fields. That said, there is no official accounting of age in the match data AFAIK (unlike medical school matches). However, a 3.5 as an older ORM is likely to get you radio silence from most medical schools unless you have something phenomenal to go with it (90th percentile MCAT, professional athlete, etc.). I'll be honest, I know a lot of non-trad docs and med students and all of them applied with phenomenal GPAs, MCAT, or both. Hence, a genuine question to consider is if you are able to get your GPA or MCAT above the median matriculant because I think most older applicants feel that your app needs to be stronger numerically than other matriculants.

 

[chssoccer7]

I know of two applicants from this cycle who are around that age and matched. Both were reasonably competitive specialties and were interviewed at arguably the top programs in their respective fields. That said, there is no official accounting of age in the match data AFAIK (unlike medical school matches). However, a 3.5 as an older ORM is likely to get you radio silence from most medical schools unless you have something phenomenal to go with it (90th percentile MCAT, professional athlete, etc.). I'll be honest, I know a lot of non-trad docs and med students and all of them applied with phenomenal GPAs, MCAT, or both. Hence, a genuine question to consider is if you are able to get your GPA or MCAT above the median matriculant because I think most older applicants feel that your app needs to be stronger numerically than other matriculants.

Is this 3.5 GPA for radio silence number accurate? Many non-trads who return to college after a bad first stint are unlikely to have much higher than a 3.5 unless they dropped out immediately. I had one bad semester (couple Cs and an F) before dropping out ~10 years ago and even now with 60 additional credits at a 4.0, I'm still only at a 3.55.

 

[Rapsidy]

Is this 3.5 GPA for radio silence number accurate? Many non-trads who return to college after a bad first stint are unlikely to have much higher than a 3.5 unless they dropped out immediately. I had one bad semester (couple Cs and an F) before dropping out ~10 years ago and even now with 60 additional credits at a 4.0, I'm still only at a 3.55.

I was accepted with to my state MD school with a cumulative GPA of less than 3.0 if you don’t include my masters degree which was a 4.0. Nothing I could have done would have raised it higher since I had so many credits under my belt at that point. I had a semester in undergrad where my gpa was 1.25.

It’s about what you’ve done with your time in between those bad years and how you’ve improved yourself since then.

 

[chssoccer7]

I was accepted with to my state MD school with a cumulative GPA of less than 3.0 if you don’t include my masters degree which was a 4.0. Nothing I could have done would have raised it higher since I had so many credits under my belt at that point. I had a semester in undergrad where my gpa was 1.25.

It’s about what you’ve done with your time in between those bad years and how you’ve improved yourself since then.

This is consistent with what i've heard as well, I was just thrown off by the radio silence number thrown out. I think I have a fairly decent x-factor, uncommon at the very least (although when I toured my state school when I mentioned my x-factor they told me of a current M3 who has the exact same one). Hopefully i'll find out they liked him so much they wanted another when this cycle rolls around!

 

[bob12364747474]

Look at it from a PD’s perspective: Why match someone who’s likely going to have a <20 year career over a fresh grad that’s likely to have a 45+ year career?

 

[esob]

Is this 3.5 GPA for radio silence number accurate? Many non-trads who return to college after a bad first stint are unlikely to have much higher than a 3.5 unless they dropped out immediately. I had one bad semester (couple Cs and an F) before dropping out ~10 years ago and even now with 60 additional credits at a 4.0, I'm still only at a 3.55.

as a caveat, my experience is with Texas applicants only, but I now know a fair amount of people who completed academic fresh start (AFS) and either

A) had applied the previous cycle to both in-state and OOS schools with the same application (except for a ~3.5 gpa) and got zero interviews. They completed AFS (only valid for Tx schools) and reapplied the next cycle with great results, including multiple II's and multiple pre-matches.
or
B) Same scenario, except they just went straight to AFS but also applied OOS. Again, great success with Tx schools and not even a single OOS interview. This includes a URM that applied to HBCU's. It also includes a few veterans.

So, there is probably some element of bias against TX residents there. Still, too many Texans go to school in other states for that bias to be the sole determining factor that a 3.5 doesn't get a single interview, but the same application with a 4.0 gets multiple acceptances.

 

[esob]

Look at it from a PD’s perspective: Why match someone who’s likely going to have a <20 year career over a fresh grad that’s likely to have a 45+ year career?

This argument doesn't factor in for most people. I've heard it rebuffed by PDs and ADCOMS multiple times because any number of circumstances can cause a "traditional" applicant to exit their career early. It also contributes to the diversity component of class/cohort composition. PDs care about team players that show up for work, which is something most non-trads have already demonstrated that they can do.

 

[bob12364747474]

This argument doesn't factor in for most people. I've heard it rebuffed by PDs and ADCOMS multiple times because any number of circumstances can cause a "traditional" applicant to exit their career early. It also contributes to the diversity component of class/cohort composition. PDs care about team players that show up for work, which is something most non-trads have already demonstrated that they can do.

Fair point, but more likely than not the trad applicant will work longer than someone aged 40-50 coming into residency. There are also plenty of trad applicants with the same team player characteristics with the added potential of working much longer. Nothing against non trads in general, but for someone like op who will come out of med school aged 50 it’s fair to say it’ll be weighed heavily when PDs are composing rank lists

 

[SpoiledMilk]

PD's do look at age when it comes to surgical specialties where hand dexterity might raise concerns as one ages, but likely not so much in primary care fields and other non-surgical specialties.

N=1 Two classes before me, a veterinarian late 50s-early 60s, graduated near the top of the class. They continued to practice throughout medschool which included operations on non-human patients. They applied to neurosurgery and received interviews. I happened to rotate through the same NSGY department and the chief resident acknowledged interviewing them, but passed on them because of the number of years required for graduation as well as the hand thingy. The applicant secured an anesthesiology residency instead.

 

[chssoccer7]

Fair point, but more likely than not the trad applicant will work longer than someone aged 40-50 coming into residency. There are also plenty of trad applicants with the same team player characteristics with the added potential of working much longer. Nothing against non trads in general, but for someone like op who will come out of med school aged 50 it’s fair to say it’ll be weighed heavily when PDs are composing rank lists

What exactly do you mean by "plenty of trad applicants with the same team player characteristics"? I don't think the vast majority of trad applicants have held down a full-time job for various years. Some have, but from what i've seen it's not typical.

 

[bob12364747474]

What exactly do you mean by "plenty of trad applicants with the same team player characteristics"? I don't think the vast majority of trad applicants have held down a full-time job for various years. Some have, but from what i've seen it's not typical.

What I mean is that plenty of trads have had long term commitments such as volunteering, research, and clubs that have taught them to be team players. I don't think it's neccessary to have been in the workforce for many years at a full time job to understand what being a team player is and become good at it.

I want to emphasize that my argument is not trads vs non trads by any means, as both have their advantages/disadvantages when applying to school/residency. My point is only that op's advanced age will be more of a detriment than their years working are an advantage, which may make it more difficult for them to match (as they're already worried about).

 

[chssoccer7]

What I mean is that plenty of trads have had long term commitments such as volunteering, research, and clubs that have taught them to be team players. I don't think it's neccessary to have been in the workforce for many years at a full time job to understand what being a team player is and become good at it.

I want to emphasize that my argument is not trads vs non trads by any means, as both have their advantages/disadvantages when applying to school/residency. My point is only that op's advanced age will be more of a detriment than their years working are an advantage, which may make it more difficult for them to match (as they're already worried about).

I guess this is where I diverge, having both had a prior career and also doing long term volunteering and clubs, I can tell you that there was very little learning to be part of a real team going on in volunteering/clubs as compared to my prior career. There are just way too many different things you deal with at a job vs. showing up once or twice a month for volunteering/clubs. I think you can show a little bit of it, but the two aren't on the same playing field (completely just my opinion, though).

However, I definitely do agree that age also has it's disadvantages when you get to extreme ends of the spectrum for starting a new career like OP is at. On the flip side, I have heard many physicians that are 1-2 years out of residency talking about their plans for not continuing in the field and what they want to do next, so I think PDs planning on who may or may not practice longer is probably not a safe bet.

 

[esob]

What I mean is that plenty of trads have had long term commitments such as volunteering, research, and clubs that have taught them to be team players. I don't think it's neccessary to have been in the workforce for many years at a full time job to understand what being a team player is and become good at it.

I want to emphasize that my argument is not trads vs non trads by any means, as both have their advantages/disadvantages when applying to school/residency. My point is only that op's advanced age will be more of a detriment than their years working are an advantage, which may make it more difficult for them to match (as they're already worried about).

Not to incite a flame war, but there is nothing that an individual can volunteer for that is equivocal to a tour of duty (or two). Perhaps that seems like the exception, but a ton of non-trads are veterans. Other non-trads I know have done everything from working as another healthcare professional (Pharmacist, PT, PA) to college professors with PhD's to Olympic athletes. In the evolving environment of medicine, where professionalism is now a regularly tested component, it's hard to fathom a volunteering activity that would be on par with someone who has spent a decade as a professional. Real-world jobs are not equivocal to volunteering/fast food jobs.

 

[Myopicvisions]

Overview

Age: Mid 40s
Background: First Gen, White Male
Education: Non-science
Work: unrelated to healthcare
cGPA: 2.75 upward graduate work trend, after premed could be close to 2.9, but won't breach 3.0
sGPA: 2.50 after premed coursework, this should be in the 3.25-3.50 range
MCAT: not taken yet
ECs: just getting started
Areas of interest: EM, IM, FM, and Psychiatry

If I do all things right, raise GPA in a DYI post-bac, strong MCAT, confirm passion through ECs, get admitted to DO program (Caribbean is off the table), I am extremely concerned about not matching.

It's simply not enough to get into medical school at my age. There will not be much time left to do more research, volunteering, graduate work, etc. to match 2 years later.

Based on my research, the common thread for not matching seems to be weak Step scores and/or unrealistic matching goals.

I am not finding enough anedoctal information on non-traditional older matching candidates.

I imagine there are very few, which may explain things.

Are there any place to track success and failure of DO or MD matching based on an applicant's age?

Hey there,

Please dont let any

Overview

Age: Mid 40s
Background: First Gen, White Male
Education: Non-science
Work: unrelated to healthcare
cGPA: 2.75 upward graduate work trend, after premed could be close to 2.9, but won't breach 3.0
sGPA: 2.50 after premed coursework, this should be in the 3.25-3.50 range
MCAT: not taken yet
ECs: just getting started
Areas of interest: EM, IM, FM, and Psychiatry

If I do all things right, raise GPA in a DYI post-bac, strong MCAT, confirm passion through ECs, get admitted to DO program (Caribbean is off the table), I am extremely concerned about not matching.

It's simply not enough to get into medical school at my age. There will not be much time left to do more research, volunteering, graduate work, etc. to match 2 years later.

Based on my research, the common thread for not matching seems to be weak Step scores and/or unrealistic matching goals.

I am not finding enough anedoctal information on non-traditional older matching candidates.

I imagine there are very few, which may explain things.

Are there any place to track success and failure of DO or MD matching based on an applicant's age?

I think your first concern should be meeting the criteria for medical schools to take a look at your application.

What is your narrative? What makes you stand out? The very questions that every single applicant should be thinking about.

There are other ways to get into medical school.

Post bacc linkage programs that actually give you a conditional seat.
You will hear a lot of people tell you that you cant. Ignore them all.

 

[ElTacoGrande]

I would guess FM/IM/Peds, prob neurology/psych/anaesthesiology would be fine, surgery tough ?

Don't let anyone tell you you can't, TMDSAS data show a number of 40-50 yr olds getting accepted. 60+ usually not.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

Look at it from a PD’s perspective: Why match someone who’s likely going to have a <20 year career over a fresh grad that’s likely to have a 45+ year career?

I think this is an exaggeration. A cursory glance shows most are estimated to be working around the ~33 year mark give or take a couple. And the average matriculation age is no longer 22, but edging closer to 25.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

Overview

...
Areas of interest: EM, IM, FM, and Psychiatry
...

FM continually has many unfilled spots, post-SOAP, year to year, so I think it would be virtually impossible to not match. Hell, the last I saw you only need COMLEX not even step 1 or 2.

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I would be surprised.


Money? Ignore anyone talking about that, seriously. Unless you have folks who are relying on you right now for financial support, but given this is the path you want we can assume you have things cleared with your family.

FM salary you will still have at minimum 15 years of working by 65, and since you are exceptionally non-trad, I'm guessing you wouldn't want to quit anytime soon. That's millions of dollars. And FM has tons of loan repayments / forgiveness programs. Whoever thinks that starting late is bad financially, i'm sorry but respectfully needs a reality check compared to the average US citizen. As a resident you will still be making the median/average salary (or close to it).

Best luck on your path!

 

[gyngyn]

FM continually has many unfilled spots, post-SOAP, year to year, so I think it would be virtually impossible to not match. Hell, the last I saw you only need COMLEX not even step 1 or 2.

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I would be surprised.

Sadly, every year, even US applicants to FM fail to match.
They are very focused on fit.

 

[Myopicvisions]

I would guess FM/IM/Peds, prob neurology/psych/anaesthesiology would be fine, surgery tough ?

Don't let anyone tell you you can't, TMDSAS data show a number of 40-50 yr olds getting accepted. 60+ usually not.

Is that because of the lack of 60 year olds in medical school?

FM continually has many unfilled spots, post-SOAP, year to year, so I think it would be virtually impossible to not match. Hell, the last I saw you only need COMLEX not even step 1 or 2.

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I would be surprised.


Money? Ignore anyone talking about that, seriously. Unless you have folks who are relying on you right now for financial support, but given this is the path you want we can assume you have things cleared with your family.

FM salary you will still have at minimum 15 years of working by 65, and since you are exceptionally non-trad, I'm guessing you wouldn't want to quit anytime soon. That's millions of dollars. And FM has tons of loan repayments / forgiveness programs. Whoever thinks that starting late is bad financially, i'm sorry but respectfully needs a reality check compared to the average US citizen. As a resident you will still be making the median/average salary (or close to it).

Best luck on your path!

Or you can be offered a scholarship which pays for school.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

Sadly, every year, even US applicants to FM fail to match.
They are very focused on fit.

this reminds me of a recent parody I saw where a program director was interviewing a potential intern for SOAP. They asked 'so, tell me why you think you didn't match?' Then the graduate replied 'first, tell me why you didn't fill?'