Entry Level Pharmacist in Texas: $85,000 ($40/hour)

[Secret_Informant]

I can’t say I want that job... even if it came with 6 weeks of PTO and 10% 401k matching, 85k is just too low. In my area, pharmacists who work M-F 9-5 make 100k-125k depending on benefits. Most chains here are unionized (although corporate ceaselessly tries to dissolve the unions.) Pharmacists need to fight back. It’s a shame that APhA doesn’t fight for and protect pharmacists the way AMA does for physicians.

No they don't and the American Pharmacists Association (APhA) has not done so for years. That is one reason why I do not deal with them as an organization: they are a waste of time and effort. Anyone who is not a pharmacist can see through their vague articles and nonspecific data. I think most people join to get a discount on professional liability insurance, but ASHP offers their own as well.

Since I already decided on this profession as a career, which professional organizations would you recommend joining?

Specifically, what is your opinion on joining: ACCP, ASHP, AMCP, and ASCP? I've heard good things about ASCP and ACCP, but I heard bad things about ASHP, AACP, and of course APhA.

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[Secret_Informant]

What would you do to improve the situation? Higher PCAT and GPAs? Longer programs? Required residencies?

All three ideas I would approve of with the following details:

1. 3.5 GPA for all entering candidates, including Science and overall. Mine was a 3.2 overall, but my MS GPA was 3.64 overall with a 92nd percentile PCAT. All prerequisites must be recent (within 3-5 years time).
2. Require entry into an internship within the first professional year, NOT JUST ROTATIONS. If the student cannot secure an internship of any kind (research, pharmacy, or otherwise), then the student is automatically removed from the program. Extending the program length will only prolong the suffering. Furthermore, not everyone achieves a residency. ASHP negotiations for more residency programs are not going well.
3. Keep the total student loan burden BELOW $200,000 in aggregate including private and federal loans for EVERY STUDENT.
4. Require PCAT for ALL ACPE-Accredited pharmacy programs (regardless of whether or not the school is public or private) with an 85th percentile and above for ALL entering candidates in ALL sections of the exam.
5. At least 2-3 years experience as a Pharmacy Technician or other health professional. I had 2.5 years in a hospital pharmacy before I applied and worked as a cashier in an independent pharmacy for 3 years.
6. Mandate schools to provide realistic job placement data for all of their graduates within 5 years after graduation, including those that took longer to pass their exams. One failed the Florida MPJE 4 times before passing on the fifth (AND FINAL) try one year after graduation; he still (somehow) found three pharmacist jobs which is odd to me.

ALL SIX REQUIREMENTS MUST BE MET PRIOR TO CONSIDERATION. NO EXCEPTIONS!

RDT Class of 2018.
USF Taneja College of Pharmacy

I want credit for this to go to me directly.

 

[UTCOP11]

All three ideas I would approve of with the following details:

1. 3.5 GPA for all entering candidates, including Science and overall. Mine was a 3.2 overall, but my MS GPA was 3.64 overall with a 92nd percentile PCAT. All prerequisites must be recent (within 3-5 years time).
2. Require entry into an internship within the first professional year, NOT JUST ROTATIONS. If the student cannot secure an internship of any kind (research, pharmacy, or otherwise), then the student is automatically removed from the program. Extending the program length will only prolong the suffering. Furthermore, not everyone achieves a residency. ASHP negotiations for more residency programs are not going well.
3. Keep the total student loan burden BELOW $200,000 in aggregate including private and federal loans for EVERY STUDENT.
4. Require PCAT for ALL ACPE-Accredited pharmacy programs (regardless of whether or not the school is public or private) with an 85th percentile and above for ALL entering candidates in ALL sections of the exam.
5. At least 2-3 years experience as a Pharmacy Technician or other health professional. I had 2.5 years in a hospital pharmacy before I applied and worked as a cashier in an independent pharmacy for 3 years.
6. Mandate schools to provide realistic job placement data for all of their graduates within 5 years after graduation, including those that took longer to pass their exams. One failed the Florida MPJE 4 times before passing on the fifth (AND FINAL) try one year after graduation; he still (somehow) found three pharmacist jobs which is odd to me.

ALL SIX REQUIREMENTS MUST BE MET PRIOR TO CONSIDERATION. NO EXCEPTIONS!

RDT Class of 2018.
USF Taneja College of Pharmacy

I want credit for this to go to me directly.

#1 does not make sense... So 3.5 from community college gets in before 3.0 from a more competitive university?
#2 just like people can't get jobs do you think it will be easier to get internships? Aren't internship hours already required with those with tech hours getting waivers.
#3 most student loans are high because of how students choose to live their lives not pure tuition. Starbucks everyday, expensive campus apartments..... these things add up.
#5 doesn't make sense at all in the real world . To be a doctor work as an MA first? To be a Veterinarian be a vet tech that is PURE NONSENSE.
In general you are setting yourself as some standard for admission and it doesn't make sense to me. Some people no matter how smart or what experiences they have should not do certain jobs. I know a lot of techs that have gone on the pharmacy school that I can see killing people in the future.
It is simple supply and demand..... For years people have been going to pharmacy schools because of the career benefits: salaries/stability and that caused the problem. Yes there are too many schools especially substandard ones but people have to apply/attend for them to stay in business. Right now the system is self correcting, messing pharmacists up in the process and it won't just be retail. Hospital salaries increased to keep up with retail, what do you think will happen to those salaries when retail salaries are in the gutter and every one has a residency?

TODAY- Pharmacy, retail pharmacy especially, is a sunk ship not just for new grads but for everyone. WAG is already terminating experienced more costly pharmacists and replacing them with new grads. Even if you get a higher hourly rate you get less hours spread over 5 days creating a situation of 32 hrs @54/hr = 43/hr. Don't forget that they are cutting cost so you are lucky if you have anything more than a 1:2 pharmacist/tech ratio, immunizations, dumb calls you make for metrics, waiters and all other BS things that you as a PharmD are required to do. All this while some none health professional tries to dictate what you do while all responsibilities fall on your license.

SO FOR ALL YOU THINKING ABOUT PHARMACY SCHOOL- DON'T GO IF YOU ARE IN IT FOR MONEY CAUSE ITS NOT THERE
FOR ALL THOSE IN PHARMACY SCHOOL- BE PREPARED FOR POST GRADUATION WORLD/JUMP SHIP IF YOU HAVE OPTIONS
FOR THOSE PRACTICING- LET US ALL TRY TO SURVIVE

 

[deleted562805]

Isn't that what they plan to do with the PCOA? When I took the exam as a third year, scores didn't really matter and were just used for us to gauge how we were doing compared to the national average. But our school administration claimed that at some point they will be a part of residency applications, similar to Step exams.

I guess but the PCOA of the NAPLEX is not challenging enough unlike BCPS or PSAP questions

 

[deleted562805]

All three ideas I would approve of with the following details:

1. 3.5 GPA for all entering candidates, including Science and overall. Mine was a 3.2 overall, but my MS GPA was 3.64 overall with a 92nd percentile PCAT. All prerequisites must be recent (within 3-5 years time).
2. Require entry into an internship within the first professional year, NOT JUST ROTATIONS. If the student cannot secure an internship of any kind (research, pharmacy, or otherwise), then the student is automatically removed from the program. Extending the program length will only prolong the suffering. Furthermore, not everyone achieves a residency. ASHP negotiations for more residency programs are not going well.
3. Keep the total student loan burden BELOW $200,000 in aggregate including private and federal loans for EVERY STUDENT.
4. Require PCAT for ALL ACPE-Accredited pharmacy programs (regardless of whether or not the school is public or private) with an 85th percentile and above for ALL entering candidates in ALL sections of the exam.
5. At least 2-3 years experience as a Pharmacy Technician or other health professional. I had 2.5 years in a hospital pharmacy before I applied and worked as a cashier in an independent pharmacy for 3 years.
6. Mandate schools to provide realistic job placement data for all of their graduates within 5 years after graduation, including those that took longer to pass their exams. One failed the Florida MPJE 4 times before passing on the fifth (AND FINAL) try one year after graduation; he still (somehow) found three pharmacist jobs which is odd to me.

ALL SIX REQUIREMENTS MUST BE MET PRIOR TO CONSIDERATION. NO EXCEPTIONS!

RDT Class of 2018.
USF Taneja College of Pharmacy

I want credit for this to go to me directly.

Also students if they do not match should be allowed to do a gap year like medical residents who do not match since Phase 2 of the pharmacy residency caters only to local applicants. first two years should be book work and last two years rotations like medical school

 

[Hedgehog32]

Also students if they do not match should be allowed to do a gap year like medical residents who do not match since Phase 2 of the pharmacy residency caters only to local applicants. first two years should be book work and last two years rotations like medical school

What do you mean when you say that Phase 2 of the pharmacy residency match only caters to local applicants? Can't you apply to any open positions during phase 2?

 

[deleted562805]

What do you mean when you say that Phase 2 of the pharmacy residency match only caters to local applicants? Can't you apply to any open positions during phase 2?

You can apply to open positions in Phase 2. But do not get discouraged if they only select local applicants. That’s what someone who did not match in Phase 1 and tried Phase 2 told me.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

What do you mean when you say that Phase 2 of the pharmacy residency match only caters to local applicants? Can't you apply to any open positions during phase 2?

You can apply to open positions in Phase 2. But do not get discouraged if they only select local applicants. That’s what someone who did not match in Phase 1 and tried Phase 2 told me.

Historically there have only been 1-2 weeks between match day of Phase 1 and when you have to submit rankings for the second match in Phase 2. This means that programs who don't match with a candidate during Phase 1 find themselves logistically challenged because they would need to:

1) Collect and review apps
2) Screen applicants they like
3) Conduct interviews with finalists

all within 2 weeks. Since it is virtually impossible to tell someone to buy a plane ticket to interview with you in less than one week's notice, many programs either just interview local candidates or do interviews over Skype.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Historically there have only been 1-2 weeks between match day of Phase 1 and when you have to submit rankings for the second match in Phase 2. This means that programs who don't match with a candidate during Phase 1 find themselves logistically challenged because they would need to:

1) Collect and review apps
2) Screen applicants they like
3) Conduct interviews with finalists

all within 2 weeks. Since it is virtually impossible to tell someone to buy a plane ticket to interview with you in less than one week's notice, many programs either just interview local candidates or do interviews over Skype.

Thanks, that makes sense. So I'm guessing that if I find myself without a residency position in March and decide that I want to participate in Phase 2 of the match, I'll need to focus on applying to programs that clearly state that they hold Skype/phone interviews?

 

[Hels2007]

Driving to the interview is always an option. While few would go for a 20-hour drive, just about everyone can handle 6 hours or even 10 hours. I would cast a broader geographic net. Also, try to find something about each program that genuinely interests you. No one wants to hear "well, I need a job" as the response to "why did you apply for this particular position".

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Thanks, that makes sense. So I'm guessing that if I find myself without a residency position in March and decide that I want to participate in Phase 2 of the match, I'll need to focus on applying to programs that clearly state that they hold Skype/phone interviews?

You should call up each program and inquire directly. No program is going to post those details online, nor will most programs have an established method of handling the situation, since I would think that no program goes into match day "not expecting to match."

 

[Hedgehog32]

You should call up each program and inquire directly. No program is going to post those details online, nor will most programs have an established method of handling the situation, since I would think that no program goes into match day "not expecting to match."

Believe it or not, I did randomly come across a couple programs just now that state on their websites that Phase 2 interviews are done by phone or Skype.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Driving to the interview is always an option. While few would go for a 20-hour drive, just about everyone can handle 6 hours or even 10 hours. I would cast a broader geographic net. Also, try to find something about each program that genuinely interests you. No one wants to hear "well, I need a job" as the response to "why did you apply for this particular position".

So far, I've applied to 8 programs total but might add in a few more just to be safe. I'm mostly applying to smaller/medium-sized community hospitals since I don't have any research experience on my application (aside from a project I did way back in undergrad) since I figure I have the best chances of matching at one of those facilities.

 

[Hels2007]

So far, I've applied to 8 programs total but might add in a few more just to be safe. I'm mostly applying to smaller/medium-sized community hospitals since I don't have any research experience on my application (aside from a project I did way back in undergrad) since I figure I have the best chances of matching at one of those facilities.

Any reason you applied to only 8? Since I've never actually looked into it, I have no idea how many people generally apply for... but my gut instinct would have been at least 10. Just to be safe. Is there a downside to applying to more programs, like application fees or something?

 

[Hedgehog32]

Any reason you applied to only 8? Since I've never actually looked into it, I have no idea how many people generally apply for... but my gut instinct would have been at least 10. Just to be safe. Is there a downside to applying to more programs, like application fees or something?

It does cost more money to add additional programs beyond 4, but honestly, I think part of why I'm reluctant to apply to too many programs (aside from the issue of traveling expenses) is because of my general ambivalence towards doing a residency. I think deep down, I can tell that I don't really "want" to do one, and yet I know that if I want a future doing anything other than retail pharmacy, I'm basically obligated to do one.

I actually heard from another student the other day who is doing a rotation at the hospital network I used to work as an intern for, and she said that immediately after one of the residents finished giving a presentation the other day, she broke down in front of everyone on the podium and started crying due to being overwhelmed from the schedule, workload, etc. It's just hard to get motivated to put myself through that sort of thing, especially since over half of the residents from their most recent graduating group still haven't found jobs. I kind of feel like I'm forcing myself to do something I don't want to do.

 

[Sine Cura]

For comparison, in 1985 pharmacists' median weekly earnings of $600 corresponds to $31,200 across 2080 hours. This is equivalent to $73,327.25 in 2018 dollars.

Retail pharmacists are typically required to do much more these days than compared to even 10 years ago.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1986/09/rpt1full.pdf
$31,200 in 1985 → 2018 | Inflation Calculator

$40 an hour in 2020 is almost approaching the inflation-adjusted rate for 1985!

$83,200 in 2020 → 1985 | Inflation Calculator

The 2.54% inflation rate means $83,200 in 1985 is equivalent to $34,590.09 in 2020. This inflation calculator uses the official US consumer price index.

www.in2013dollars.com

 

[Secret_Informant]

#1 does not make sense... So 3.5 from community college gets in before 3.0 from a more competitive university?
#2 just like people can't get jobs do you think it will be easier to get internships? Aren't internship hours already required with those with tech hours getting waivers.
#3 most student loans are high because of how students choose to live their lives not pure tuition. Starbucks everyday, expensive campus apartments..... these things add up.
#5 doesn't make sense at all in the real world . To be a doctor work as an MA first? To be a Veterinarian be a vet tech that is PURE NONSENSE.
In general you are setting yourself as some standard for admission and it doesn't make sense to me. Some people no matter how smart or what experiences they have should not do certain jobs. I know a lot of techs that have gone on the pharmacy school that I can see killing people in the future.
It is simple supply and demand..... For years people have been going to pharmacy schools because of the career benefits: salaries/stability and that caused the problem. Yes there are too many schools especially substandard ones but people have to apply/attend for them to stay in business. Right now the system is self correcting, messing pharmacists up in the process and it won't just be retail. Hospital salaries increased to keep up with retail, what do you think will happen to those salaries when retail salaries are in the gutter and every one has a residency?

TODAY- Pharmacy, retail pharmacy especially, is a sunk ship not just for new grads but for everyone. WAG is already terminating experienced more costly pharmacists and replacing them with new grads. Even if you get a higher hourly rate you get less hours spread over 5 days creating a situation of 32 hrs @54/hr = 43/hr. Don't forget that they are cutting cost so you are lucky if you have anything more than a 1:2 pharmacist/tech ratio, immunizations, dumb calls you make for metrics, waiters and all other BS things that you as a PharmD are required to do. All this while some none health professional tries to dictate what you do while all responsibilities fall on your license.

SO FOR ALL YOU THINKING ABOUT PHARMACY SCHOOL- DON'T GO IF YOU ARE IN IT FOR MONEY CAUSE ITS NOT THERE
FOR ALL THOSE IN PHARMACY SCHOOL- BE PREPARED FOR POST GRADUATION WORLD/JUMP SHIP IF YOU HAVE OPTIONS
FOR THOSE PRACTICING- LET US ALL TRY TO SURVIVE

I understand everything you are posting. TranslationalRPh suggested improvements, so I provided suggestions.

The obvious answer to the job question is: do not look into retail or community pharmacy as it has been a sinking ship for 5-10 years longer than this post was made (metaphorically speaking at the bottom of the ocean with little hope of surfacing at this point). What about those that specialized as community pharmacy residents or those in community pharmacy management (PGY2)? Will they be the next Alex Barker, PharmD or will they own their own business long after their "excitement" has died?

Pharmacists and students have known this for awhile. Negative posts are more frequent after 2018 as compared to before I was in pharmacy school (2014); furthermore, residency-trained and/or clinical pharmacists seem either immune to these effects or have less to deal with than their retail pharmacy/community pharmacy counterparts. That is what the posts on this forum are implying.

There are the chosen few that found a specialty pharmacy job even though they did not pass their MPJE for Florida until 1.5 years after graduation; from your post, I am surmising those occurrences are rare. People still think retail is not clinical due to the emphasis on dispensing rather than service provision you alluded to, which is why these pharmacists are trapped behind employer and license expectations. Regulations have obviously not kept up with the way pharmacists are trained.

"We are training for jobs that do not exist yet." That is what my pharmacy school dean told us in 2014. Employers are so stuck with tradition that they forget pharmacy, which is why remote positions are hard to come by and the majority of pharmacists do not like retail (at least those that can fake it long enough). The pharmacists are limited in what services they can perform despite their education and training. Provider status will just create more problems; we need a better strategy.

ASHP is already undergoing negotiations for residency programs. Do you honestly think every pharmacy graduate will have a residency with such a low program growth rate? I doubt the residency program growth rate and the student graduation rate will meet for the next 2-3 decades (20-30 years), yet individuals without residencies still gain clinical and specialty positions.

Most pharmacists posting to this forum will not be alive by the time the residency growth rate reaches the graduation rate. In case you were not following, ASHP did not meet their goal of having 100% of graduates in a residency by 2020. It is 2020 now and we did not see that happen. Furthermore, most clinical pharmacists have a pharmacy practice residency and greater specialization, but not all of them do. It has been said on this forum time and time again: residencies do not guarantee jobs. Residencies guarantee training opportunities. Most residents with their profiles posted on LinkedIn gain clinical positions while there are a few residents that scramble for jobs and end up taking retail, which is a slap in the face to their "arduous" training.

It has been said on this forum time and time again: pharmacy residencies do not guarantee jobs. Pharmacy residencies guarantee training opportunities. Some residents, like my preceptor, had to work in WAG after her residency in Ambulatory Care pharmacy; this was before the state of the market now and she checked all the boxes: Rho Chi, Kappa Epsilon, work experience, research, poignant letter of intent, glowing letters of recommendation, etcetera. Some had to work for a few years before becoming professors AFTER the residency in Pharmacy Practice. Most professors are not posting their residency training anymore on LinkedIn to protect themselves and their careers. She was also an adjunct professor to start, not a full-time professor. She's tenured now, but it took a long time.

I do have a few questions though:

1. Why not set yourself up for remote pharmacist positions; they do exist?
2. What suggestions do you have for correcting this oversaturation problem?
3. Why work for retail in the first place if people know the market is that bad, even for an initial job?

I am interested in your evidence-based suggestions; we can agree that complaints are moot. Complaints are all over social media, even here.

 

[UTCOP11]

To me it’s pointless to make suggestions to “correct” the problem. Unfortunately it is something that has to run its course, this is not the first profession that has seen a boom then a fall and it will not be the last. It’s an employers dream to have over saturation and the only way it will correct is simply when the profession loses it’s attraction(unfortunately). Making it harder to get into pharmacy school won’t stop people from applying but not getting paid enough will. Schools are in it for money, do we think they will just cut class size to help the profession? I went through pharmacy school with professors/deans predicting saturation but my same school has opened up two more campuses. What the profession is experiencing is the correction to over saturation. It’s not just retail, it’s harder to get clinical positions as well, it’s harder to get a residency and being residency trained doesn’t mean you won’t be in WAG/CVS. I know a few residency trained top 5 school graduates in this position. Also, many hospitals are now capping the growth of pharmacists that made it in without a residency. So I imagine when those individuals leave their positions, residency will become a minimum requirement. Maybe when all the older pharmacists who lost $ in the past recession finally strengthen their portfolios enough to retire we can get a bunch of new openings. The jobs can not be created as much as national graduation rates and salaries will continue to drop in this employers market. Unfortunately, with PBMs and low reimbursements it is harder for independents to survive. I personally know 3 independents that sold to WAG and are now staff pharmacists. Expanding pharmacist roles can’t solve all the problems either because there are people already doing those jobs that are more skilled / trained In those areas than we are.

Personally, I got an industry position after graduation but did retail because of my family dynamics. I am no longer in retail and happy I left but pharmacists with better qualifications have tried to get out and failed so I lucked out. I now have a regulatory role, I took a pay cut but I work 9-5 no weekends, all the holidays you can think of, work from home 50% of the time and love it. I feel like I am being treated as a human being, I never realized just how much my life was out of balance until I left and looking back I can not imagine being in my pharmacy manager position again even with my higher salary. No holidays because I was in the high volume store that was always open, no lunch breaks, hard to just take a restroom break, working late with an alternating schedule made it hard to see my husband. The work was hard because it’s not just about you as a health profession, it was about customer service Burger King style, which is not how healthcare should be. We should be empowered to make decisions that are purely about patient safety and outcomes not script count all the while having our budgets cut. But that was my norm then. I fought hard to not take a pay cut but in the end I make more than what retail pharmacists make with the new rates/hour cuts with a much higher quality of life.

My point was and still is that the profession is changing. This is not a complaint but a statement about the current state of pharmacy. Gone are the days of the 120k+ salary, with abundant jobs and bonuses. That ship has sailed, it sucks but that’s life. Those of us that have been in it for a while have to adjust to it and maybe some who are thinking of it won’t. I do not believe that people should stop being pharmacist, but the high compensation that attracted so many regardless of passion is not there anymore.

The “good” pay kept us quiet/complacent when we didn’t get lunches, were understaffed and dealt with all the corporate nonsense. We live in a world retail pharmacies write articles lauding themselves for providing uninterrupted lunches, a right that every working person should have(the techs have it). Maybe the one good thing that will come of this is that the money won’t be worth the crap we go through and everything will change from there.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

It does cost more money to add additional programs beyond 4, but honestly, I think part of why I'm reluctant to apply to too many programs (aside from the issue of traveling expenses) is because of my general ambivalence towards doing a residency. I think deep down, I can tell that I don't really "want" to do one, and yet I know that if I want a future doing anything other than retail pharmacy, I'm basically obligated to do one.

I actually heard from another student the other day who is doing a rotation at the hospital network I used to work as an intern for, and she said that immediately after one of the residents finished giving a presentation the other day, she broke down in front of everyone on the podium and started crying due to being overwhelmed from the schedule, workload, etc. It's just hard to get motivated to put myself through that sort of thing, especially since over half of the residents from their most recent graduating group still haven't found jobs. I kind of feel like I'm forcing myself to do something I don't want to do.

Ask yourself this simple question:

Would you rather have a 1 year contract job (residency) that gives you guaranteed exposure to doing different things via several rotations but doesn't guarantee you a job afterwards, or a 6 month-1 year contract job (found through using a staffing agency) that might teach you one skill only and also doesn't guarantee a job after? It's a no-brainer in my opinion.

 

[Yaksha]

Oh definitely. I've been told from my superiors to stay away from TX due to saturation and salary, and proof is in the pudding. That's all I was saying.

It has gotten exponentially worse nationwide since then, and every year will continue to

I'm trying to applying for WAGS PIC position in Houston, TX,; however they do not post their salary or pay/hour on the application. Do you know how much PIC in Houston, TX range at? I know now a days its pretty low (i'm guessing).

 

[Lexington2012]

Lol, what kind of job? And where?
I live in Dallas and it's super saturated for years.

This is scary. My dad was making 80k as a pharmacist in the late 90s, and 80k had much higher purchasing power back then.