EP Shadowing and other questions...

[shaggybill]

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Hello there. This is my first post here. I recently decided that I would like to become a doctor, and so I have been doing research like mad on the different areas of medicine. I have sort of focused in on being an EP because family is very important to me, and by being an EP, it seems I would have more time to spend with them (that is, once I have a family)

I am not in Medical School (obviously), and as of right now, I have only 37 credit hours on my college transcript. I have been on break from school for about a year now, and now I am ready to return. So as you can see, I have barely begun this arduous journey. I just had a few questions for you all, if ya dont mind.

1. EP shadowing. Do you have to have any experience to do this? I mean, can you just walk up to an EP and just say, "do you mind if I follow you around?"

2. Do EP's hate shadowers? Seems like shadowers would be an EP's worst nightmare, based on my limited knowledge of an EP's job description.

3. I have recently read "Just Trying to Save a Few Lives Here" and it seemed to me that the lady absolutely hated her job. She made out as if being an EP was the biggest mistake of her life. Do you all feel differently? Is it possible to work in the ER and not live in a chronic state of depression?

4. How do you feel about gaining only the 90 hours required before Med School, instead of obtaining a degree? I am 22 years old, and with 37 credit hours already, I, technically, would only have to go to school for 1 1/2-2 years before I could enter Med School. If I wanted to finish my degree after I completed my doctor studies, I could, but by getting the minimum 90 hours, I could save nearly 1 1/2-2 years of additional schooling. Would this be looked upon unfavourably by anyone interviewing me for Med School?

Thanks for any advice you can give me here.

 

[Hernandez]

Hello there. This is my first post here. I recently decided that I would like to become a doctor, and so I have been doing research like mad on the different areas of medicine. I have sort of focused in on being an EP because family is very important to me, and by being an EP, it seems I would have more time to spend with them (that is, once I have a family)

I am not in Medical School (obviously), and as of right now, I have only 37 credit hours on my college transcript. I have been on break from school for about a year now, and now I am ready to return. So as you can see, I have barely begun this arduous journey. I just had a few questions for you all, if ya dont mind.

1. EP shadowing. Do you have to have any experience to do this? I mean, can you just walk up to an EP and just say, "do you mind if I follow you around?"

2. Do EP's hate shadowers? Seems like shadowers would be an EP's worst nightmare, based on my limited knowledge of an EP's job description.

3. I have recently read "Just Trying to Save a Few Lives Here" and it seemed to me that the lady absolutely hated her job. She made out as if being an EP was the biggest mistake of her life. Do you all feel differently? Is it possible to work in the ER and not live in a chronic state of depression?

4. How do you feel about gaining only the 90 hours required before Med School, instead of obtaining a degree? I am 22 years old, and with 37 credit hours already, I, technically, would only have to go to school for 1 1/2-2 years before I could enter Med School. If I wanted to finish my degree after I completed my doctor studies, I could, but by getting the minimum 90 hours, I could save nearly 1 1/2-2 years of additional schooling. Would this be looked upon unfavourably by anyone interviewing me for Med School?

Thanks for any advice you can give me here.

#4: Don't count on it, I know of only 1 person who's managed to do this, most schools websites say that 100% of the students who attend have a b.s./b.a/etc

#3: While still only in medical school, I've been through the ED many times and while there are moments that suck, for the most part everyone seems to have fun, of course it may be cynical fun, but fun none the less

#2 & #1: I'd find a family practice doc. for refrences and then to also get a job as an ED tech, first hand experience and pay to boot

YMMV, advice is free, so the value of it may vary,

 

[DrQuinn]

Agreed.

1) If you know a family friend or anyone who knows any doctors, ask them. Go to your primary care doctor (or student health care clinic doc) and see if they know of any "ER docs." Or just shadow a primary care guy. Basically its all about the same except in the ER you might see cool stuff instead of tweaking someone's blood pressure medicine or adding an antidepressant.

2) I don't think I'd mind a shadow, in fact I'd probably be tickled pink by it, but then again I'm barely 1/3 of hte way through my residency. Some attendings don't like it if you're not a medical student, some don't mind. YMMV.

3) I love being in the ED, and I love the people there. We're definately a different breed, and you can pick out an ER nurse from almost any other nurse specialty. A tired adage is "we work hard, and play hard." I absolutely love EM and can't imagine being in anything else. If you took a scrutinizing eye at our forums (EM) versus any of the other specialty ones, you can see that we like to joke around, make fun of everything and everyone (stress reliever) and have varied interests.

4) Agree with Hernandez. Don't count on it. I didn't know anyone in my medical school (DO program) that didnt' have a bachelor's degree. Take summer courses if you want, they're far easier and pretty economical.

Q

 

[edinOH]

We have a whole slew of pre-med's shadowing it seems at any given time during the day shifts. I personally find it annoying. Nothing against the premed (we were all there once) it is just I feel like I need to pay them attention and take time to explain what I'm doing, etc. I feel like it slows me down. The good thing is that you will learn whole new meanings to the words "troll, **** sandwich, pillar of society" and a few others.

I got in with only 92 hours or so of undergrad. But I had significant other experiences than just highschool and college. I'm sure this played a part. I agree it is rare.

 

[shaggybill]

Thanks for the quick replies. What kind of experience do you have to have to become an ED tech? Im asking because I have absolutely no experience in the medical field.

Also, the med school I would be trying my hardest to enter is the University of Cincinnati. Their website says that a bacc is encouraged but not required; the 90 hours is required. Is this a rare exception? I guess I should email them and ask about it.

Another thing, is there an advantage to either DO or MD when one is planning on being an EP?

 

[DrQuinn]

Thanks for the quick replies. What kind of experience do you have to have to become an ED tech? Im asking because I have absolutely no experience in the medical field.

Also, the med school I would be trying my hardest to enter is the University of Cincinnati. Their website says that a bacc is encouraged but not required; the 90 hours is required. Is this a rare exception? I guess I should email them and ask about it.

Another thing, is there an advantage to either DO or MD when one is planning on being an EP?

Here it is straight from the ***** I mean horse's mouth. If you can get into an MD program, go for it. It'll make your life easier. If you have a tough time getting into medical school, or you truly believe in the DO "difference," go DO. Otherwise just go the mainstream route.

Q

 

[jjs]

I did the ED tech route prior to entering medical school...
First off, don't underestimate the process of getting into medical school. It's not impossible, but it does take definite commitment to the process. My personal story was that I had great grades and MCAT scores, but didn't get into any med schools I applied to the first time around. Deciding to apply a second time was actually a pretty tough decision, but in retrospect, the right one. What I did was take a summer EMT-Basic class at a local community college. From there I went looking for a Tech job. I think that this experience was invaluable.

1. I think it made the difference between not getting into med school my first time, and having many acceptances the second time around (I ended up going to UCLA)

2. The expereince of working in a hospital prior to medical school is very, very valuable in terms of feeling comfortable. It helps to know the terminology, the way the hospital hierarchy works (How's that one Margarita Boy, I can spell circles around you). And finally all of this translates into a much easier transition into your clincial years.

3. If you are still interested in EM after med school, previous exp. working in a department will go a long way to showing EM program directors that you have a realistic understanding of what real emergency medicine is all about, which I think is very helpful in the application process.

Most places I know of require at least emt-b to become a tech...it is a one semester course, but if you can find a summer program you can get it done in about 2 months. In addition, the EMT course will give you a good idea if you like medicine.

Finally, one last bit of advice. It is very early for you right now, so good job on getting an early start and gathering info. I personally wouldn't be in such a hurry to finish college as quickly as possible (I took 5 years). I'd find a major that you really enjoy, and do that while also taking the pre-med requirements. I had classmates who had degrees in history, spanish, mathmatics, humanities and philosophy so you obviously don't have to take one of the typical pre-med majors (molec. bio, biochem, etc). Don't rush it, though. It is a long process to become a doctor and beleive me by the time you finish the whole thing, being 30 vs. 33 isn't going to make a huge difference for you, but having had an enjoyable time while making it there will matter a great deal.

 

[Apollyon]

It is a long process to become a doctor and beleive me by the time you finish the whole thing, being 30 vs. 33 isn't going to make a huge difference for you, but having had an enjoyable time while making it there will matter a great deal.

'Democratic' and 'hierarchy' notwithstanding...

 

[margaritaboy]

I did the ED tech route prior to entering medical school...
First off, don't underestimate the process of getting into medical school. It's not impossible, but it does take definite commitment to the process. My personal story was that I had great grades and MCAT scores, but didn't get into any med schools I applied to the first time around. Deciding to apply a second time was actually a pretty tough decision, but in retrospect, the right one. What I did was take a summer EMT-Basic class at a local community college. From there I went looking for a Tech job. I think that this experience was invaluable.

1. I think it made the difference between not getting into med school my first time, and having many acceptances the second time around (I ended up going to UCLA)

2. The expereince of working in a hospital prior to medical school is very, very valuable in terms of feeling comfortable. It helps to know the terminology, the way the hospital hierarchy works (How's that one Margarita Boy, I can spell circles around you). And finally all of this translates into a much easier transition into your clincial years.

3. If you are still interested in EM after med school, previous exp. working in a department will go a long way to showing EM program directors that you have a realistic understanding of what real emergency medicine is all about, which I think is very helpful in the application process.

Most places I know of require at least emt-b to become a tech...it is a one semester course, but if you can find a summer program you can get it done in about 2 months. In addition, the EMT course will give you a good idea if you like medicine.

Finally, one last bit of advice. It is very early for you right now, so good job on getting an early start and gathering info. I personally wouldn't be in such a hurry to finish college as quickly as possible (I took 5 years). I'd find a major that you really enjoy, and do that while also taking the pre-med requirements. I had classmates who had degrees in history, spanish, mathmatics, humanities and philosophy so you obviously don't have to take one of the typical pre-med majors (molec. bio, biochem, etc). Don't rush it, though. It is a long process to become a doctor and beleive me by the time you finish the whole thing, being 30 vs. 33 isn't going to make a huge difference for you, but having had an enjoyable time while making it there will matter a great deal.

I have to agree with my man jjs. The little bit of time you gain by graduating earlier might be put toward something that you consider a 'life investment' rather than starting med school early. I took a year off between undergrad and med school, and it was the best thing I've ever done for myself. Travel, learn another language, read some classic books, work part time, or whatever. By blasting through your undergrad years you may forgo some scheduling flexibility and a time in your life that you will never have again.

I definitely think you are on the right track by trying to gain first hand experience in the medical world. Use these shadowing experiences to test yourself. There are a lot of careers in the health care field, make sure that being a doctor is the right one for you. Also ask yourself if you'd could be happy as a non-EP.

You're on the right track, and the fact that you have the foresight to ask such good questions and try to plan out your path before you run it bodes well for you. Good luck with everything!

 

[shaggybill]

Thanks again JJS and Quinn.

JJS, did you go to school full time while working as a Tech? How many hours a week did you work? I will look and see if there are any summer EMT programs around here. I was wondering myself how it would look if I applied to Med School without any experience.

 

[jjs]

How does that rule go...i before e except after v, no wait it's c. stupid, stupid mistake, I'll go write my spelling words some more.

 

[shaggybill]

Thanks Margaritaboy. I'm definitely trying to get a head start here. And being a doctor is one those things that just feels...right. I'd been racking my brain trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, and then one day I was doing some HVAC work in a hospital and it just clicked. I want to be a doctor. And I think I have finally found my calling. Unfortunately, some of my previous college grades werent the best, so Im going to have to pull in some serious grades now, among other things to make myself stand out when it comes time for Med Schools to be looking at perspective students.

One other thing, Im still not clear on if you have to be a Med Student if you want to shadow an ER doc. Could someone set this straight for me. I dont know any doctors to ask, so you all are my only source for answers.

Thanks.

 

[doc3341]

Thanks again JJS and Quinn.

JJS, did you go to school full time while working as a Tech? How many hours a week did you work? I will look and see if there are any summer EMT programs around here. I was wondering myself how it would look if I applied to Med School without any experience.

I wasnt an ER tech, but i was a CCU tech and i dont recommend working more than 24 hours a week. But thats just me

 

[Denise00]

Hello there. This is my first post here. I recently decided that I would like to become a doctor, and so I have been doing research like mad on the different areas of medicine. I have sort of focused in on being an EP because family is very important to me, and by being an EP, it seems I would have more time to spend with them (that is, once I have a family)

I am not in Medical School (obviously), and as of right now, I have only 37 credit hours on my college transcript. I have been on break from school for about a year now, and now I am ready to return. So as you can see, I have barely begun this arduous journey. I just had a few questions for you all, if ya dont mind.

1. EP shadowing. Do you have to have any experience to do this? I mean, can you just walk up to an EP and just say, "do you mind if I follow you around?"

2. Do EP's hate shadowers? Seems like shadowers would be an EP's worst nightmare, based on my limited knowledge of an EP's job description.

3. I have recently read "Just Trying to Save a Few Lives Here" and it seemed to me that the lady absolutely hated her job. She made out as if being an EP was the biggest mistake of her life. Do you all feel differently? Is it possible to work in the ER and not live in a chronic state of depression?

4. How do you feel about gaining only the 90 hours required before Med School, instead of obtaining a degree? I am 22 years old, and with 37 credit hours already, I, technically, would only have to go to school for 1 1/2-2 years before I could enter Med School. If I wanted to finish my degree after I completed my doctor studies, I could, but by getting the minimum 90 hours, I could save nearly 1 1/2-2 years of additional schooling. Would this be looked upon unfavourably by anyone interviewing me for Med School?

Thanks for any advice you can give me here.

Shaggybill i'm glad you posted this question, I am in pretty much the same situation as you i'm 22 also and have 1 1/2 yrs left to get my degree however i have non of the prereqs so i have to add another 1 1/2 yrs to get them ( adding a chem minor) i'm a financ major. I knew i wanted to be a doctor since i took my first medical skills class in the ninth grade it was basically the first of 3 classes that you took to get you cna licence, up till then i wanted to be a lawyer, glad i changed my mind on that. Choosing what you want to do with your life is hard i am glad you figured it out. I've known for a while and have been basically putting it off becouse i was scared to try, but finally i decided I couldn't live the rest of my life wondering if I could have been a doctor if had just tried. I have the same problem as you I have to pull up my grades some to. Well sorry if I rambled I know I couldn't answere any of your question since I have the same ones. Well good luck to you

p.s. It does seem to click when I did my hours in the nursing home and some in the hospital for my cna classes in high school it did feel right.
(pleas excuse spelling it's 5 am and i have been up all night)

 

[Sessamoid]

I would second the recommendation to get certified as an EMT and work in an ED somewhere. To the OP, you have the benefit of living in the city with the oldest and one of the most prestigious Emergency Medicine residency programs at Univ of Cincinatti. I'd recommend you work as a tech there at least part-time to see how emergency physicians work. You'll find some very bright doctors there, though they have the reputation of being a bit more hardcore than the average EP.

 

[VienneseWaltz]

One other thing, Im still not clear on if you have to be a Med Student if you want to shadow an ER doc. Could someone set this straight for me. I dont know any doctors to ask, so you all are my only source for answers.

Thanks.

This depends a lot on the hospital. I did it when I was an undergraduate, but that was before the HIPAA privacy regulations (which are strict about who is and is not allowed to see personally identifiable health information) were in effect. I have heard that it is much more difficult for my school to arrange shadowing now. On the other hand, I am doing research this summer (am now MSII), and my PI has an undergraduate shadowing him, and he is allowed everywhere except the operating field (as he is not allowed to scrub in).

 

[margaritaboy]

Thanks Margaritaboy. I'm definitely trying to get a head start here. And being a doctor is one those things that just feels...right. I'd been racking my brain trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, and then one day I was doing some HVAC work in a hospital and it just clicked. I want to be a doctor. And I think I have finally found my calling. Unfortunately, some of my previous college grades werent the best, so Im going to have to pull in some serious grades now, among other things to make myself stand out when it comes time for Med Schools to be looking at perspective students.

One other thing, Im still not clear on if you have to be a Med Student if you want to shadow an ER doc. Could someone set this straight for me. I dont know any doctors to ask, so you all are my only source for answers.

Thanks.

You don't have to be a medical student in order to shadow a doctor, but, as a previous poster mentioned it may be a little more difficult to approach some random doc and ask if you can tag along due to privacy/safety training concerns.

You're best bet would be to approach someone you know, or someone that knows someone that knows someone, if you get my drift. At the premed phase, you really just need any kind of medical experience. If you are interested in emergency medicine and can set up some shadowing, great. But shadowing an accommodating family practice, pediatrics, or internal medicine doc will still give you a glimpse of medicine.

When you apply to medical school, I think the interviewers will want to see that you've had some sort of experience in a clinical setting. Not having seen or been around sick patients may raise some eyebrows (how does he/she really know that they want to enter a career of patient care?).

To this end, any reasonable shadowing experience will suffice. Volunteering at camps for sick or disabled kids can also be a supplement. And as previous posters mentioned, the idea of getting a part time job in a clinic or ED, if you have the time, would also be a great start.

Remember to use these experiences to test yourself and really see if medicine is for you! Health care isn't for everyone, and there are a lot of different ways to contribute for those that choose to pursue it.

 

[Febrifuge]

Thanks for the quick replies. What kind of experience do you have to have to become an ED tech? Im asking because I have absolutely no experience in the medical field.

That's my cue!

In early 2003, my only experience was dating a med student. When I caught on that medicine might be my road as well, I began investigating by volunteering at my local hospital... and I landed in the ED. This was because I interviewed well and wanted as much patient contact as possible.

Then, after a few months of that, I wanted some training. Over a summer in a night class, I earned EMT certification. Then, everybody at the ED started asking "so, are you going to apply?" I did, they hired me part-time, and here we are. I'm starting Post-Bacc studies next year, and my MCAT will be August 2006.

 

[shaggybill]

Hey, thats more helpful than you might know. I have been trying to find summer EMT night classes here in Cincinnati, but I'm not having much luck. Any ideas where to look? It would be for next summer.

Also, when you volunteered in the ED, what kind of work did you do? And how did your job description change once you became a certified EMT? Thanks.

 

[Febrifuge]

I'm in Minnesota, but Ohio should be fairly similar: all it took was contacting the local community college. 9 weeks of summer school, taking night classes after work. 6pm to 10pm 3 nights a week, a smattering of 10-hour weekend days, and $700. (That part sucked.)

As a volunteer, I walked patients from triage back to the ED cubicles, stripped beds, wiped down beds with sanitizer, made beds, and helped out with stuff like "could you grab a warm blanket and some juice for the guy in #6?"

As a tech, I still do most of that, plus even more of the disgusting stuff like cleaning patients, hauling laundry, pre-cleaning bloody instruments before packing them up for Central Supply, wiping down spine boards from the ambulance services... and of course my very favorite job, scraping poopoo out of the inside of people's clothing and running it through the laundry, to be delivered fresh and dry to the hospital floor at the end of the shift. There's also inventory and control of patients' property.

But there are also vaguely medical things like vital signs, blood draws, glucose fingersticks, breathalyzers, crutch teaching, visual acuity checks, IV care (though we techs don't start them at my facility), some minor wound care and splinting, 02 administration... and of course, the holding of small children while various painful but medically necessary things are done to them. And it's the techs who get a weight and a rectal temp for the little ones.

Now and then we haul ass up to the blood bank with a little camp cooler and haul ass back to the trauma room, or we get called in to play a minor role in a trauma, like holding this or stabilizing that. If they need someone to to compressions, they might call on a tech, among the interns and PAs and the vast array of others in the room when there's a really cool case.

Which leads into the less-official stuff, the stuff you get to do when you've shown yourself to be competent and the PMP finds that having another person in the room is an asset. I've been the not-sterile assistant who drops stuff into a sterile field, I've been the one to apply dressings after suturing, and I've been another set of eyes looking at the ultrasound (with the understanding that crap, I dunno, man, you went to med school and I haven't yet -- but that looks like fluid to me too, a little).

In general, it's cool to have not much responsibility, but enough that it matters (and even gets noticed) that you do a good job. I have direct experience with patient contact, and with how an ED works. I'm feeling like this was a great way to make my decision (nursing would be awesome, but there's not enough science and just too much poopoo), but it's also great preparation for what's ahead.

 

[shaggybill]

Thats alot of schooling for an EMT-B. Or is it? Maybe not... what do I know?

Anyways, thanks for that post...very informative. It was all sounding awesome until the scraping poo-poo from clothes part. 🙂 I think I could handle it, though. When you take EMT-B training, do you recieve any credits that can be transfered to a degree, or is it something entirely different?

Edit: Also, what do you mean by "a smattering of 10 hour weekend days?" Are you saying that on Saturdays, you have classes for 10 hours?

 

[Emergency!]

It's been my experience in Ohio that summer classes are hard to find - especially night classes. It's hard to get people to teach them, and harder to get people to take them due to vacations, kids being off of school, etc. A lot start in March or April and then finish up in late July. August seems to be the big month that everyone wants to avoid.

Besides contacting a community college, try contacting (or looking on their website) vocational schools. Many vocational schools offer the EMT classes as part of healthcare programs, and then they offer them at night as part of their adult education course load. My previous local vocational school offered EMT-B and EMT-I courses. My current local votech doesn't offer the EMT courses, but they offer CNA and phlebotomist and medical assisting courses as part of the adult ed courses.

If you can find one place that offers EMT courses at any time of the year, give them a call. Even if they don't offer a summer course, they are usually an excellent source of info on who else offers courses and who to contact.

Amy

 

[Emergency!]

Thats alot of schooling for an EMT-B. Or is it? Maybe not... what do I know?

When you take EMT-B training, do you recieve any credits that can be transfered to a degree, or is it something entirely different?

Edit: Also, what do you mean by "a smattering of 10 hour weekend days?" Are you saying that on Saturdays, you have classes for 10 hours?

The EMT-B curriculum IS a lot of hours. (Although, if you think THAT's a lot, you should see the number of hours required in the paramedic curriculum!) See http://www.ems.ohio.gov/Education/EMT B Curriculum04.pdf for the EMT-B curriculum in Ohio. Typically, EMT-B night courses run 3-4 hours a night, 2-3 nights a week, for 3 to 4 months, with an occasionaly saturday. A lot of places use saturdays as days to do skill practice testing. The amount of hours on the saturday can vary from 4 to 10, but an 8a to 3 or 4 p schedule is common.

As far as transferring them to a degree, that all depends on where you take it. If you take the course as a credit program at a community college, it should transfer to an associates degree. It will not transfer to a four year college. If you take it as a certificate class, it probably won't transfer to a degree program as credit. Instead, they would just exempt you from taking that class for your degree. It most likely varies from community college to community college as to how that works.

Are you looking at an associates degree w/ paramedic certification?

Amy