Epidemiology PhD without MD?

[InATree]

Hello,

I think I am interested in pursuing a PhD in epidemiology for the purpose of doing medical research. But looking online at epidemiology PhD programs, most of them seem to focus on epidemiology methology without ever teaching the sciences (genetics, etc.) that you'd be applying that methodology *to*.

So where do non-MD epidemiology researchers get their training in biological sciences?

(Also, is it possible to just take year 1 and 2 of MSTP and skip 3 and 4 if you're really, really sure you don't want to be a doctor and see patients?)

Edit: Also, are there decent job prospects out there for an epidemiology PhD with no MD, or would going that route be seriously shooting myself in the foot?

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[dap]

Hello,

I think I am interested in pursuing a PhD in epidemiology for the purpose of doing medical research. But looking online at epidemiology PhD programs, most of them seem to focus on epidemiology methology without ever teaching the sciences (genetics, etc.) that you'd be applying that methodology *to*.

So where do non-MD epidemiology researchers get their training in biological sciences?

(Also, is it possible to just take year 1 and 2 of MSTP and skip 3 and 4 if you're really, really sure you don't want to be a doctor and see patients?)

Can you be more specific about what info you have been looking at and what kind of research you want to do? Epidemiology methodology is not necessarily "applied to the sciences e.g. genetics." Depending on what kind of research you want to do, the point of the methodology is more often to be applied to "epidemiological problems." Do you want to do field research? Work for something like the CDC's Epidemiology Intelligence Service? Do you want to work on things like drug resistance transmission? Depending on what kind of research you are interested in you may pick up a lot of the "other things" during your PhD research and in fellowships/post-docs/other training opportunities.

You don't want to apply to an MSTP or MD/PhD program unless you really want to do both. First of all, if you are not able to convey that you are applying to an MSTP program with the goal of becoming a physician-scientist, you aren't going to get accepted (and lying your way through the admissions process is generally not advised). You will also need to have clinical experience, motivations, etc. Yes, there are certainly research-only MDs and MD/PhDs, but you would be competing for acceptance with people who are highly qualified, and who are also highly motivated (at least at this point) to do both. The spots are just too valuable for committees to give them to people who aren't going to finish.

Edit: Also, are there decent job prospects out there for an epidemiology PhD with no MD, or would going that route be seriously shooting myself in the foot?

Again, depending on what kind of work/research you want to do (not just what kind of degree you want to have) you might look at combining the PhD with an MPH. You might also seriously just consider the MPH. Many Masters of Public Health programs have Epi as a possible focus. Most epidemiologists (broadly construed) do not have an MD.

Try to forget about the degree briefly and just describe what kind of work or research you want to do afterwards, and what kind of research, clinical, or epi-related work you have done so far. That may help us give you some better info and opinions.

 

[InATree]

Thank you for your suggestions/questions -- that does help clarify what I'm thinking about!

I want to study diseases for which the causes are not yet fully known/understood. Particularly mental illnesses (although that interest is certainly not exclusive).

I *also* want a reasonable certainty of being able to find employment in my field doing research or research-related activities. If I were to do a PhD in genetics or neuroscience, those are both fields where the supply of PhD-holders greatly exceeds the demand -- the stats I've heard sound like about 15% eventually become tenured professors, 30% make it in industry research, and the rest float from postdoc to postdoc for a while and then eventually have to reinvent themselves/go into medical sales/etc. because they can't get jobs in research... that scares me!

Being in a field where I can have reasonable hope of eventually being a PI (in industry or academia) would be wonderful, but as a "plan B" I'm also open to the possibility of being a data-wrangler for people doing research (if such a career exists) -- I get a bizarre enjoyment from statistics and Matlab.

My background is zoology (completed premed curriculum but don't want to be a doctor) and some computer science. Since graduation, I've been working in IT, but not enjoying it -- I would much *much* rather be reading and learning about biology-related topics instead of server maintenance and firewall configuration.

 

[BrightandClear]

I want to study diseases for which the causes are not yet fully known/understood.

You've essentially defined epidemiology right there, the study of causes, characteristics and patterns of disease. It's all unknown to varying degrees.

Most of the tenured faculty in the pop health department at my school are PhDs. Of the MDs that I know of, they no longer practice (at all, not speaking of the typical 80/20 physician scientist route). However, I know our MSTP is increasingly enrolling students who plan to do their PhD in epi or clinical research. I have no idea what the rate of PhDs going into faculty positions is, but the field is definitely a growing one.

 

[InATree]

Thank you.

What I still don't understand is where epidemiologists get their medical/biological knowledge. Program curricula seem to be full of design and methodology courses, but no genetics/pathophysiology/etc. -- so where do epidemiologists learn the background info necessary for doing studies in a subject area?

 

[BrightandClear]

Epidemiological research does not necessarily require in-depth medical education. Many epidemiologists focus on the social/behavioral/environmental determinants of disease. Our epi program does offer elective courses in the biological basis of disease, molecular epidemiology, population health genetics, etc. etc.

 

[InATree]

That's what makes me still a little confused as to whether epidemiology is the field I should be going into... I want to do research looking to link diseases to biological/developmental factors, not to whether you're stressed at work or eating enough vegetables... can an epidemiologist do biological/developmental research and be viewed as having credibility by researchers in other disciplines?

Eg. when the occasional ground-breaking study comes out that says "we've found a very strong link between disease A and gene B", is that more likely to be designed/written/run by an epidemiologist, or a geneticist? Or a study that says "we've found a sub-population of patients with depression have certain endocrine abnormalities" -- would that be more likely to be the work of an epidemiologist or a biopsychologist/neuroscientist?

 

[justgo]

First, Epidemiology is a very saavy way to have a great academic career. Everyone needs Epi folks to do analysis that they can't do on their own. They can get a lot of publications much more quickly than basic science folks who create the data sets from which analysis is done....but everyone cares about the results right, so the Epi guys are very close to that.

However, after studying Epidemiology I was certain it wasn't for me! You might consider doing a masters and getting some of it out of your system. You might also look at computation biology, bioinformatics, or "systems biology".

My experience has been that epidemiologist consult on basic science study design that is carried out by a "bench scientist", then they do the data analysis. With a PhD in Epi you rarely see people with a manipulative wet lab.....you might see populations sampling and testing of samples (which might include genomics etc), but you don't *generally* see folks doing gene identification and the like at the bench.

This is not to say that it couldn't be done. But my opinion is that you should focus on what you like. Are you interested in the ANALYSIS of data or the PRODUCTION of data. That's a simple first question to guide where you head I think.