Ethical dilemma

[maximuum]

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I'm curious as to what you guys think about the ethical issues in this case (front page of CNN.com):
The planned execution of a man convicted of raping and murdering a 17-year-old girl was delayed until Tuesday night after two anesthesiologists refused to participate because of ethical concerns.

With the execution scheduled for 12:01 a.m. Tuesday, defense lawyers requested a stay from the federal judge who last week ordered San Quentin State Prison to have an anesthesiologist on hand to minimize Michael Angelo Morales' pain as he was put to death by lethal injection. A second anesthesiologist was retained as a backup.

Although U.S. District Judge Jeremy Fogel denied the motion, both anesthesiologists withdrew, citing ethical concerns raised by his ruling.

The exact wording of the judge's order was not immediately available, but the anesthesiologists issued a statement through the prison saying they were concerned about a requirement that they intervene in the event that Morales woke up or appeared to be in pain.

"Any such intervention would clearly be medically unethical," said the doctors, who have not been identified. "As a result, we have withdrawn from participation in this current process."

The American Medical Association, the American Society of Anesthesiologists and the California Medical Association all opposed the anesthesiologists' participation as unethical and unprofessional.

Prison officials rescheduled the execution for 7:30 p.m. Tuesday and said they would employ a different technique: administering a fatal overdose of barbiturate in lieu of the three-drug cocktail typically used in lethal injections.

Morales' attorneys had argued that the three-part lethal injection cocktail used in California and 35 other states violated the Eighth Amendment prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment. They said a prisoner would feel excruciating pain from the last two chemicals if he were not fully sedated.

Fogel refused to derail the execution. But he gave prison officials two options: retain the doctors to ensure Morales would be properly anesthetized, or forgo the paralyzing and heart-stopping drugs and overdose him on a sedative. With the anesthesiologists withdrawing, prison officials said they would use the second option.

 

[NoSz]

I am not all an anesthesiologist, but I have been thinking about this case a lot.

From what I remember about anesthetics, tonight Mr. Morales will go through the different stages of anesthesia with thiopenthal, including stage 2 with random movements, uncoordinated breathing pattern and other unsightly and frightening occurences. Nobody would have seen this if he had been given a paralyzing agent. Will this now make a normal side effect of anesthesia seem unusual and cruel? Is that the intent? Does this make death penalty unacceptable?

I am against death penalty, but somehow it strikes me as very strange to care that much about the 5 minutes (ok, up to an 1 hour) the convicted will go through before he is put to death anyway.
If you believe in hell this should just add an infinitesimal amount of pain and suffering to your indefinite time in hell. If you don't believe in hell he will soon be dead anyway and not be able to remember or care.

Maybe a precise shot in the neck like in China would be less cruel?

Maybe death penalty is cruel under all circumstances and it does not really matter how it happens.

 

[seattledoc]

I'm not following the story but find it interesting that there is a concern that the inmate is aware. Are they using skimpy doses of pentothal, I'd think they would use a continuous drip? Are they concerned about side effects of too big a dose of pentothal in their three-drug cocktail? Why not just use excessive amounts of all three? I guess they use pentothal, some sort of NMB, and potassium? Figure out the correct dose of each and add a couple of zeros to each one. Their goal is death right?

As for the anesthesiologists walking out, didn't they screen these guys? You'd think they would have asked them the critical questions to make sure they wouldn't walk out and site ethical reasons. It sounds like the whole thing was botched.

 

[j fizz]

Frrom the ASA web site:

http://www.asahq.org/news/asanews21606.htm

 

[Noyac]

OK, I wasn't going to bring this up but what the hell. Someone will if I don't.

Get a CRNA. They don't take the oath and therefore there is no moral/ethical dilemma. Unless they disagree with the death sentence.
I could just see this guys family sueing the anesthesiologist for malpractice.

What do you say Nitecap, I'll bet you are just the person for the job.



Seriously, this just shows how little the lay pubic and the legal system really knows about medicine all together.

 

[Anasazi23]

From what I remember about anesthetics, tonight Mr. Morales will go through the different stages of anesthesia with thiopenthal, including stage 2 with random movements, uncoordinated breathing pattern and other unsightly and frightening occurences. Nobody would have seen this if he had been given a paralyzing agent. Will this now make a normal side effect of anesthesia seem unusual and cruel? Is that the intent? Does this make death penalty unacceptable?

A lot less painful to watch than this:

...raping and murdering a 17-year-old girl

👎

Sorry, I'm all out of sympathy.

 

[bullard]

I wasn't going to bring it up either, but I've heard CRNAs typically _are_ retained for lethal injection. Surprised to hear they had anesthesiologists lined up for this.

OK, I wasn't going to bring this up but what the hell. Someone will if I don't.

Get a CRNA. They don't take the oath and therefore there is no moral/ethical dilemma. Unless they disagree with the death sentence.
I could just see this guys family sueing the anesthesiologist for malpractice.

What do you say Nitecap, I'll bet you are just the person for the job.

Seriously, this just shows how little the lay pubic and the legal system really knows about medicine all together.

 

[toughlife]

Why not try to be a bit more creative? See attachment.

 

[Idiopathic]

Whether or not you believe in the death penalty (I dont, but I think if you are going to do it, it should be as painful, gruesome, and freely viewable as possible), you must admit that there are not many more sanctioned services that are less medically ethical, as far as a physician is concerned. I dont blame these guys, regardless of the oath (although that is an easy way out)

 

[jetproppilot]

I'm curious as to what you guys think about the ethical issues in this case (front page of CNN.com):
The planned execution of a man convicted of raping and murdering a 17-year-old girl was delayed until Tuesday night after two anesthesiologists refused to participate because of ethical concerns.

With the execution scheduled for 12:01 a.m. Tuesday, defense lawyers requested a stay from the federal judge who last week ordered San Quentin State Prison to have an anesthesiologist on hand to minimize Michael Angelo Morales' pain as he was put to death by lethal injection. A second anesthesiologist was retained as a backup.

Although U.S. District Judge Jeremy Fogel denied the motion, both anesthesiologists withdrew, citing ethical concerns raised by his ruling.

The exact wording of the judge's order was not immediately available, but the anesthesiologists issued a statement through the prison saying they were concerned about a requirement that they intervene in the event that Morales woke up or appeared to be in pain.

"Any such intervention would clearly be medically unethical," said the doctors, who have not been identified. "As a result, we have withdrawn from participation in this current process."

The American Medical Association, the American Society of Anesthesiologists and the California Medical Association all opposed the anesthesiologists' participation as unethical and unprofessional.

Prison officials rescheduled the execution for 7:30 p.m. Tuesday and said they would employ a different technique: administering a fatal overdose of barbiturate in lieu of the three-drug cocktail typically used in lethal injections.

Morales' attorneys had argued that the three-part lethal injection cocktail used in California and 35 other states violated the Eighth Amendment prohibition on cruel and unusual punishment. They said a prisoner would feel excruciating pain from the last two chemicals if he were not fully sedated.

Fogel refused to derail the execution. But he gave prison officials two options: retain the doctors to ensure Morales would be properly anesthetized, or forgo the paralyzing and heart-stopping drugs and overdose him on a sedative. With the anesthesiologists withdrawing, prison officials said they would use the second option.

Call me cynical. I believe in the judicial system. If dude's gotten this far, chances are he killed the poor, helpless adolescent.

And as an aside, give ANYONE 2 sticks of propofol/thiopental/etomidate and they're not gonna remember a thing.

Sign me up!!!!!

And afterwards I'm gonna go to Taco Bell, get a cuppla Mexican Pizzas with no meat and a Mountain Dew. Then I'm going home to get some rack time.

I dont understand the ubiquitous empathy for murderers/rapists in this country.

Ya gonna give me the power to euthanize human threats to me/my wife/my kids?

I'll take you up on it every time.

 

[jetproppilot]

"Any such intervention would clearly be medically unethical," said the doctors, who have not been identified. "As a result, we have withdrawn from participation in this current process."
.

Sorry, raping and killing an adolescent female is, at least in my book, unethical as well. Our nation will be better off, richer, and safer without you.

Use all the esoteric, litiginous avenues you want, Charles Manson analogue.

IMHO, those two anesthesiologists f ucked up.

And once you have children, and a wife, and realize that the risk of falling victim to one of these sick f ucks is REAL, you'll be ready and willing to push the plunger into his sick, demented, groveling vein.

 

[Trisomy13]

I dont understand the ubiquitous empathy for murderers/rapists in this country.

Neither do I.

Nor do I understand the lack of empathy for the innocent person who can be wrongly convicted and murdered.

We could argue but we'll never agree. 😉

 

[jetproppilot]

Neither do I.

Nor do I understand the lack of empathy for the innocent person who can be wrongly convicted and murdered.

We could argue but we'll never agree. 😉

Nice try.

The ratio of "the dude did it"/the dude didnt do it" is VERY high. Very, very, very few misses.

I'll push the plunger. Tomorrow. For free.

No, I'll actually slip the security guard a C-note on the way to the chamber.

 

[jetproppilot]

I am not all an anesthesiologist, but I have been thinking about this case a lot.

From what I remember about anesthetics, tonight Mr. Morales will go through the different stages of anesthesia with thiopenthal, including stage 2 with random movements, uncoordinated breathing pattern and other unsightly and frightening occurences.

Gimme a break. You sound like a Fox Network, dramatic reporter.

I've been in the anesthesia biz ten years, and I've NEVER seen a patient elicit FRIGHTENING OCCURENCES , as you so eloquently put it, after an induction dose of thiopental.

Take your grandstanding, propaganda filled, no-knowledge posts to I-wanna-be-a-reporter-that-makes-a-dramatic-story-no-matter-what.com.

 

[Trisomy13]

Nice try.

The ratio of "the dude did it"/the dude didnt do it" is VERY high. Very, very, very few misses.

I'll push the plunger. Tomorrow. For free.

No, I'll actually slip the security guard a C-note on the way to the chamber.

no "try". that would imply i am attempting to persuade you to assume my position on this topic.

we have different views. "very, very, very few misses" to me means non-zero. not good enough for me.

as i pointed out... we'll never agree here. was just offering my view.

 

[jetproppilot]

no "try". that would imply i am attempting to persuade you to assume my position on this topic.

we have different views. "very, very, very few misses" to me means non-zero. not good enough for me.

as i pointed out... we'll never agree here. was just offering my view.

Again, even if you are unaware of it, your reply is full of politically motivated issues.

And if you refute this, answer this question.

Youre a heart surgeon. One of the best. Even so, the operation risks a 4-5% mortality rate.

If it were up to you, since the risk isnt ZERO, no CABGs would take place in the US.

 

[MedicinePowder]

Sorry, raping and killing an adolescent female is, at least in my book, unethical as well. Our nation will be better off, richer, and safer without you.

Use all the esoteric, litiginous avenues you want, Charles Manson analogue.

IMHO, those two anesthesiologists f ucked up.

And once you have children, and a wife, and realize that the risk of falling victim to one of these sick f ucks is REAL, you'll be ready and willing to push the plunger into his sick, demented, groveling vein.

bottom line the dude should pay the consequences because anyone who goes around killing and raping others gives up his rights. however, we do not become doctors to kill another human under the pretense of revenging on behalf of society. the thought is disappointing for the profession. when little kids reply: "doctor", when asked what they want to be when they grow up, we are doing a tremendous diservice and mocking the beautiful profession medicine is.

hang the guy by the nutz for all i care, but doctors have no role and should have no role in the punishing.

 

[militarymd]

Nice try.

The ratio of "the dude did it"/the dude didnt do it" is VERY high. Very, very, very few misses.

I'll push the plunger. Tomorrow. For free.

No, I'll actually slip the security guard a C-note on the way to the chamber.

2 c-notes.

 

[militarymd]

The medical profession is NOT what it was 20 to 30 years ago. Everything about it has changed.......we are no longer the paternalistic figure who patients listen to without question....we've become just another cog in the wheels of the health care machine.

Our roles HAVE changed.....so why should it not include administering anesthesia drugs in a non-medical setting.

 

[freshity]

just because the roles of physicians have changed over the last few years (obviously, things change, roles change, etc.--doesn't mean you need to erase the previous lines and essentially lose your footing), where will you draw the line to what you are now sanctioned to do as a physician? do you administer anesthesia to yourself and your honey while hanging out on the couch at home? do you euthanize your own pets and loved ones when the time has come? really, where do you now draw that line with that sort of reasoning? seems like you could change everything about what you do if that is your excuse.

 

[Monty Python]

Sorry, raping and killing an adolescent female is, at least in my book, unethical as well. Our nation will be better off, richer, and safer without you........And once you have children, and a wife, and realize that the risk of falling victim to one of these sick f ucks is REAL, you'll be ready and willing to push the plunger into his sick, demented, groveling vein.

1. The perpetrator raped and killed the teen AFTER torturing her for hours.

2. I'm not going to get into philosophical arguments for/against capital punishment, nor abortion. Yet consider this: anesthesia is provided for abortion. Yet it's not provided for executions. A double standard here?

3. Personally I think Aspect missed a great PR and marketing opportunity for the BIS here (tongue in cheek).

4. Thieves in the Middle East have their hand severed in public. Steal again, lose the other hand. Push drugs and die at the hands of the state. I guess there's no ACLU, PETA, etc over there. Nor are there heinous criminals lounging around prison for decades, getting three hots and a cot and free medical care, all at the taxpayer's expense.

5. Maybe England had it right in the early 1800s: put all serious criminals on a boat, sail to an Australian harbor, and let them swim ashore and survive or die in the wilds.

 

[Noyac]

So really, why do you need an anesthesiologist to push the drugs? We are trained to bring our pts to the brink of death and then bring them back safely and comfortably. Anyone can take them to death if they are not going to be returning. Just give them 2 sticks of pentothal and their done. Add some NMB if you want to be sure. Personally Jet, I don't want to do it whether I believe in the death penalty or not. Maybe I feel this way cause I don't have kids and if this bastard had done this to my wife, more than likely he wouldn't have made it this far. But if he had, I'd be the first in line to push the vecuronium only.
I'm just confused as to why they need an anesthesiologist.
I also agree with your critizism of the "Wantabe Journalist". Stop sensationalizing the issue. Nothing you described is accurate NoSZ. They don't have random movements unless you give them a smaller dose and then stimulate them. If you want to call respiratory arrest uncoordinated breathing then you are sensationalizing the event. I could go on but you get the point I hope.

 

[Monty Python]

.........I'm just confused as to why they need an anesthesiologist........
.

The felon's attorney successfully argued that the perp "might" feel pain during the dying process, and this violated the Constitutional part of "no cruel and unusual punishment." Therefore, the judge mandated the presence of an anesthesiologist to ensure no pain was felt.

 

[Trisomy13]

Again, even if you are unaware of it, your reply is full of politically motivated issues.

And if you refute this, answer this question.

Youre a heart surgeon. One of the best. Even so, the operation risks a 4-5% mortality rate.

If it were up to you, since the risk isnt ZERO, no CABGs would take place in the US.

Sorry, not having it.

the 4-5% mortality rate is a risk the patient agrees to when he consents to surgery.

the scenarios are different. the person who dies during a failed surgery designed to save him dies under vastly different circumstances than the person who dies at the hand of another man purposefully taking his life.

and of course my reply is full of "politically motivated issues". capital punishment is a political issue. with all due respect... "duh!"

i'll let you have the final say here b/c i staked out my stance on this issue years ago. i'm a hippy child of the 70's. 😀

 

[VentdependenT]

Wait a minute,

You are KILLING A MAN but you DONT want him to feel PAIN.

WTF kind of logic is that?

 

[Frank Rizzo]

To0 bad Cali doesn't use the firing squad. They still use it as an option in Utah and Idaho. Sounds like a good choice to me!!! I have no empathy for these people nor am I concerned about what pain they might feel upon lethal injection. Something tells me the teenager probably felt a little more pain than he will experience.

Actually, I think the Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome approach would be a good choice. "TWO MAN ENTER, ONE MAN LEAVE, TWO MAN ENTER, ONE MAN LEAVE!" Pair murderers up and let them fight to the death. The winner lives long enough to see someone put a bullet in his head.

 

[Monty Python]

Wait a minute,

You are KILLING A MAN but you DONT want him to feel PAIN.

WTF kind of logic is that?

The same logic as the Supreme Court ruling capital punishment is Constitutional, but lower courts stating the sensation of pain during the capital punishment was, in and of itself, cruel and unusual punishment and therefore a violation of the Constitution.

This is why attorneys have to spend three years in law school, simply to become talented in such ways of thinking.

 

[sleepwithme]

"an eye for an eye would leave the whole world blind" - Gandhi, who was shot and forgave his killer before he died.
our "correctional facilities" have a 75% re-incarceration rate. so what corrections are we making. In Texas, they spend 18000$ per inmate, only 7000$ per student. Now we are punishing a killer by killing him? Why not feed him one meal a day, and make him watch steven segal movies, not have any communication with the world, including internet, except for religious books?
"You can tell a great deal about a society by the way they treat their
elderly, their prisoners and their pets." Unknown

 

[sleepwithme]

Again, even if you are unaware of it, your reply is full of politically motivated issues.

And if you refute this, answer this question.

Youre a heart surgeon. One of the best. Even so, the operation risks a 4-5% mortality rate.

If it were up to you, since the risk isnt ZERO, no CABGs would take place in the US.

ok i have read a LOT of your posts, jetpropilot, and 90% of the time i agree.
but this is F-ing stupid..
comparing a heart patient who ate too much mcdonalds and needs surgery to someone who was convicted as a killer (in the same court of law that refuses to open up the kennedy assassinations, the hurrican katrina scandal, and that let OJ go free) is ridiculous.
I agree - protect family at all costs. but why not build a more efficient prison system and have a better appeals process? make DNA testing mandatory before an execution?
executing even one man wrongly for a murder is a crime by the government. just imagine that your wife was untimely at the scene of a crime and accused of murder.. then u would be on my side of the argument.
i also have an inkling that you are not only protecting ur family's safety, but ur family's money (aka republican - tax cuts, higher deficit, disregard for medicare, etc)

 

[Danger Man]

Nor do I understand the lack of empathy for the innocent person who can be wrongly convicted and murdered.
😉

Sorry, Trisomy. Mr. Morales admitted to said crime and I do believe that regardless of political standpoint, no one wishes to see an innocent person wrongly convicted and murdered--reason why all capital cases undergo automatic appeal. Hard to give empathy to someone who takes the life of someone truly innocent.

 

[rn29306]

From what I remember about anesthetics, tonight Mr. Morales will go through the different stages of anesthesia with thiopenthal, including stage 2 with random movements, uncoordinated breathing pattern and other unsightly and frightening occurences.

Etomidate and myoclonus aside, the progression of anesthetic depth with IV induction agents is so rapid that entering stage 2 for any perceptible time is pretty much a non-issue. Correct?

Thiopental dosages can result in an isoelectric EEG so I don't even see how this is an issue either. And so what if he does? I'm on the he's-a-piece-of-**** bandwagon here.

 

[sleepwithme]

no doubt he is a piece of stanky, airplane food ****, but do we lower ourselves as a society and commit a murder?
then should we murder doctors that are negligent to patients and end up killing them?
we all know of horror stories where perfectly healthy pts undergo electives and die.. should we kill these plastic surgeons/anesthesiologistS?

 

[sleepwithme]

no doubt he is a piece of stanky, airplane food produced ****, but do we lower ourselves as a society and commit a murder?
then should we murder doctors that are negligent to patients and end up killing them?
we all know of horror stories where perfectly healthy pts undergo electives and die.. should we kill these plastic surgeons/anesthesiologistS?

 

[dogbone65]

Why do people insist on giving mercy to these pieces of ****? How many times did that poor girl plead for mercy while he was torturing and raping her? He wasn't too concerned about mercy then! Make him dead and make it hurt!

 

[Trisomy13]

Sorry, Trisomy. Mr. Morales admitted to said crime and I do believe that regardless of political standpoint, no one wishes to see an innocent person wrongly convicted and murdered--reason why all capital cases undergo automatic appeal. Hard to give empathy to someone who takes the life of someone truly innocent.

Stop apologizing, my feelings won't be hurt on this forum. 😉

A problem I have with this reasoning is that although this case seems open and closed, not all cases are, and leaving the law as it stands leaves the door open for future mistakes, i.e. murdering the wrong person.

It's important to separate the emotions of this particular case and look at the big picture. Surely this man deserves to die, but his death perpetuates the law that can condemn an innocent man to death. I'm not okay with that. What we are doing is the great old American habit of fixing the problem at it's end stage. The entire prison system needs reformed from the bottom up. Plenty of problems with racial disparities in sentencing, overcrowding, inflated minimum sentences for minor players in the drug trade, etc. Start solving these problems and there will be more money and space to house serious criminals for life, without squeezing the common taxpayer.

Hardly sounds like a topic for an anesthesiology forum. And I am doing a lousy job at staying out of this discussion.

Have at it. 🙂

 

[Monty Python]

........The entire prison system needs reformed from the bottom up. Plenty of problems with racial disparities in sentencing, overcrowding, inflated minimum sentences for minor players in the drug trade, etc. Start solving these problems and there will be more money and space to house serious criminals for life, without squeezing the common taxpayer.

The above recommendations need to include realization for:

1. the taxpayers will not approve tax increases simply for prisons; perceived for continued coddling of the prisoners.

2. Racial disparities in sentencing are due to juries (selected and approved by the opposing attorneys) or by the judges (appointed by elected officials, or elected themselves). The sentencing guidelines are made by the legislature, ie, elected officials.

Utilize the power of the ballot box to fix this problem. It all boils down to the voter.

 

[Trisomy13]

The above recommendations need to include realization for:

1. the taxpayers will not approve tax increases simply for prisons; perceived for continued coddling of the prisoners.

I'm not suggesting tax increases to coddle prisoners. Ideally with restructure and reform would come smaller budgets for prisons, not larger.

2. Racial disparities in sentencing are due to juries (selected and approved by the opposing attorneys) or by the judges (appointed by elected officials, or elected themselves). The sentencing guidelines are made by the legislature, ie, elected officials.

Racial disparities in imprisonment go far beyond the jury and judge, and start at the level of our nation's love affair with race and the stigma of drug abusers, and how this is played out through law enforcement at the lowest levels.

 

[sleepwithme]

trinity - i can not agree more "Utilize the power of the ballot box to fix this problem. It all boils down to the voter." remember they plan on cutting medicare funding to continue the war in Iraq
as for increasing taxes for prisons, there would not be a need if we penalized 18 year olds caught with a personal of some weed with community service, drug education, etc rather than hard time. the money saved on jailing minor drug offenses can be used to truly punish the criminals, see trisomy's post. also, maybe we can stop funding these white collar prisons that people like martha stewart stay in with cable tv, swimming pools, basically a life that I am working my As* off to earn, but she gets on my tax dollar for making insider trading.
while we are at it, can we get a shout out for education? i'd much rather have angry, poor, EDUCATED hoodlums on the streets that could possibly contribute to society in some way.. fund public education! see the harlem chess team of early 1990's for further inspiration

 

[Danger Man]

while we are at it, can we get a shout out for education? i'd much rather have angry, poor, EDUCATED hoodlums on the streets that could possibly contribute to society in some way.. fund public education! see the harlem chess team of early 1990's for further inspiration

I agree that money is needed for education. However, little can replace a parent or, preferably, parents who emphasize and deeply care about their child's education. Countless examples can be found of children from poor backgrounds who do very well because of a parent who emphasized education and discipline similar to your example of the Harlem chess team.

Parents need to turn off the computer, unplug the TV, throw out the damn ipod, trash the playstation, drive by (rather than thru) the McDonald's and sit down and read their young child a book. I know I am old-fashioned, but these new ways don't seem to be working all that well now do they???

 

[wcostell]

So we're kind of off subject. We're talking about Anesthesiologist administering the death penalty. I'm not sure how I feel about the existence of a death penalty. There is no mercy in me for the people who have done the things that earn them this honor. Maybe a fault of mine. Either way, I think charging an Anesthesiologist with administering the lethal dose is a slap in the face of our chosen specialty. Are we not doctors? Did we not also take the vow to "Do no harm?"
The administration of these drugs when the goal is death is not a task that requires a higher than average IQ and over a decade of preparation. With a little effort, we could train a monkey to do it. We are not in the killing people business. If they want it done, they should train and pay a Death Penalty Tech.

 

[hoop_jumper]

Personally I feel an MDA has much more experience in this area since 98% of you have atleast 5-10 confirmed patient kills as residents alone.

Get a CRNA. They don't take the oath and therefore there is no moral/ethical dilemma. Unless they disagree with the death sentence.
I could just see this guys family sueing the anesthesiologist for malpractice.

What do you say Nitecap, I'll bet you are just the person for the job.



Seriously, this just shows how little the lay pubic and the legal system really knows about medicine all together.

 

[seattledoc]

Hoop Jumper,
That post was friggin' funny! Can we just end this tired thread on hoop jumper's high note?
peace

 

[bubalus]

I wonder how much the gig pays. Easy way to supplement a resident's salary.