Exaggerating/lieing on your application?

[Mediokyua]

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Ok so in terms of volunteering in a hospital, most places give you many choices:
-Clerical
-Booking
-Library
-Gift shop
-Greeting

And then you have the other ones (actual hands-on)
-Reading to children
-Pushing patients
-Children programs


Do people usually do clerical work or something simple like greeting/booking, and then exaggerate on their applications? Someone can volunteer at a major hospital near them and can easily just choose "clerical work". Then on their application they can exaggerate and talk about patient contact and all the likes, when infact, it really isn't that true.

Or maybe they have 100 hours of clerical work, and around 30 hours of direct patient contact but they make it out to seem like 130 hours of just pure patient contact? Is this common?

I am not one to do this, but I have a physical injury (cast and broken bone) so I was going to volunteer in some form (typing on computer), and exaggerate. BUT...because I hate the idea of lieing, I would actually volunteer 7-8 hours a day for a few weeks during the summer (even if it's after I get accepted to med school) to make up for the exaggeration, that is just the person I am.

What do you guys think? Thanks a lot!

 

[Appless]

best not to lie but you would be fooling yourself if many dont do this every year and get in. Unless it seems unreasonable most schools are too bsuy to check every little activity. And if you are a decent liar, chances are red flags wont be raised at an interview. I had a friend who cheated and lie about all his hospital volunteering hours, hes currently entering his 3rd yr of med school. **** happens, but a better question is, is it worth it? No because if you are caught consider it a blacklist. Not to mention schools can report this to other schools.

 

[Mediokyua]

Thanks for the response Elijah-

How exactly does someone get caught? If someone volunteers around 100-200 hours at a hospital, 3-4 years from now when they apply, if the Admissions decide to call the hospital and confirm it, how would the hospital remember the activity they did? Do they keep files on you?

If they did keep files though, I'm guessing it's just the amount of hours you volunteered, etc. Basically, how would the hospital remember if you either did "clerical work" or something clinical such as "helped assist children and patients"?

 

[Narmerguy]

Pretty much you can say what you like until you get caught. Whether your conscience is enough to stop you beforehand or the fear of getting caught, hopefully something precludes most students from doing this. However, I know for a fact that many do. And even if it's not that drastic, almost all students exaggerate their experiences somewhere in their app. Just have to live with the game.

 

[Appless]

Thanks for the response Elijah-

How exactly does someone get caught? If someone volunteers around 100-200 hours at a hospital, 3-4 years from now when they apply, if the Admissions decide to call the hospital and confirm it, how would the hospital remember the activity they did? Do they keep files on you?

If they did keep files though, I'm guessing it's just the amount of hours you volunteered, etc. Basically, how would the hospital remember if you either did "clerical work" or something clinical such as "helped assist children and patients"?

That was my point the chances are they wouldnt know, period. most hospitals dont keep in depth records on the volunteers, which is why its easy to lie. If you want to do it i doubt anyone would question it im just saying if you are worried about it dont do it. Whether you lied or not the experience you are talking about isnt going to make or break your app one way or the other. Volunteering in a hospital can mean many things and its very easy to just say part of your duties were clerical in addition to patient contact blah blah i learned how doctors can heal patients and I want to help people blah blah blah...and its done. Your situiaton isnt something to worry about.

 

[fishbait63]

Would you seek a recommendation from the program, the local hospitals will give any volunteer with over 100 hours a nice recommendation?
I don't know if your hospital is going to do that and moreover I don't know what is in the recommendation but if you say hey I did all or most my time with patients and they're talking about how you were a great and one of their best greeters....

 

[starfishprime]

"If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough."

 

[tdittyx2x3]

"If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough."

This applies to just about everything in life. In business, sports, etc. Everyone remember A-Rod slapping that glove at first base in the 2004 playoffs? Pathetic actually.

--

By all means play the game, but just don't be purposefully misleading.

 

[SnarkLA]

"If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough."

That's definitely true, but I have to say, if your forced into a clerical or similar position where you aren't getting patient interaction, be proactive, and join a program (switch hospitals) where you can. Its probably to late for a lot of people, but I have to say if your working a clerical position to get into medical school, its going to be a harsh reality when/if you do.

 

[MadEvans]

"If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough."

👍

If good BSing isn't in the job description of an MD, it should be. What you're describing sounds like BS, not lying*. Lying is worse, by the way.

But, I agree with SnarkLA, too.

 

[Klemptor]

Or maybe they have 100 hours of clerical work, and around 30 hours of direct patient contact but they make it out to seem like 130 hours of just pure patient contact? Is this common?

I am not one to do this, but I have a physical injury (cast and broken bone) so I was going to volunteer in some form (typing on computer), and exaggerate. BUT...because I hate the idea of lieing, I would actually volunteer 7-8 hours a day for a few weeks during the summer (even if it's after I get accepted to med school) to make up for the exaggeration, that is just the person I am.

What do you guys think? Thanks a lot!

If you truly hate the idea of lying, don't lie. A physical injury does not give you an excuse to lie. Volunteering for longer hours doesn't make up for anything.

Honestly, fear of getting caught shouldn't be what stops you - not wanting to be dishonest should be.

I don't mean to be harsh, but come on.

 

[futureboy]

👍

If good BSing isn't in the job description of an MD, it should be. What you're describing sounds like BS, not lying*. Lying is worse, by the way.

But, I agree with SnarkLA, too.

If you assert something, and it's not true, you are lying. BSing=exaggerating=lying.

 

[futureboy]

If you truly hate the idea of lying, don't lie. A physical injury does not give you an excuse to lie. Volunteering for longer hours doesn't make up for anything.

Honestly, fear of getting caught shouldn't be what stops you - not wanting to be dishonest should be.

I don't mean to be harsh, but come on.

Agreed.

 

[MossPoh]

I know people that lied about extreme things and got in. That being said, I'd be lying if I said I didn't use very selective words on my application. It wasn't lying but it is similar to what you do on a resume. You make things sound much more important than they are and use those strong verbs. Some of the stuff was unintentional. I volunteered and did things before I was premed. I didn't keep mental track of how many hours or anything. I just did them. So, it was an estimate and I probably overestimated.

 

[witness23]

i'm sure many people do, I, however, undersold myself. I think that hurts too. Just try to enjoy your activities as you go along and be proactive. Make it show on paper. I bet a lot of these hospitals would rather have clerical help than these random pre-med volunteering positions. Firefox also has a sick spell checker.

 

[dw2158]

Firefox also has a sick spell checker.

random? but i totally agree!

 

[PlaceboEffect]

random? but i totally agree!

I think he's referring to the fact that "lying" is not spelled "lieing".

 

[dw2158]

I think he's referring to the fact that "lying" is not spelled "lieing".

oh! i'm dumb. yeah, lieing just looks terrible. not sure how OP managed to miss that...

 

[Tin Man]

"If you're not cheating, you're not trying hard enough."

I would say the complete opposite. If you feel the need to cheat in order to get into medicine when there are people who are qualified to be in medicine without cheating, then you really aren't working hard enough at all. That IS the definition of cheating, after all. I seem to be doing okay, and I can honestly say I haven't cheated all the way here. Not because I have some straight-arrow morality, mind you, but because I really haven't had to at all. Why have you?

To the OP. Are you not planning on asking the volunteer people for a letter of recommendation? If you put down that you have done 130 hours of patient contact (which is impressive when compared to many pre-med students), and you DON'T get a letter from the people who can vouch for how awesome you are to have spent that much time in such an important position, that would definitely send up some red flags. Especially if you have letters from people who wouldn't rank near the importance of a volunteer coordinator who oversaw you having so much clinical experience.

A lot of these admissions guys are selected purely for their ability to pick out details like that. And it's only going to take a single red flag raised in order to make your entire application completely worthless. You just need to decide whether or not that is a risk you want to take.

 

[chiz2kul]

i'm sure many people do, I, however, undersold myself. I think that hurts too. Just try to enjoy your activities as you go along and be proactive. Make it show on paper. I bet a lot of these hospitals would rather have clerical help than these random pre-med volunteering positions. Firefox also has a sick spell checker.

And Google Chrome!! I love chrome!!

 

[Mediokyua]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

And yeah, I personally wasn't planning on just getting 130 hours of just clerical, I am going to go in sometime next week and ask the coordinator if it's okay for me to just do clerical work for a bit, and then switcfh up once my legs are fine, that was my main decision. The hospital requires you to choose a specific duty and they're pretty specific, so hopefully I can switch 🙂

About the recommendation- Do most people get a recom. from the hospital/center in which they volunteered at? Most of the time you are just left to do your own work on your own (like a shadow) and nobody really notices you...even if you take the initiative to lend yourself out ("need help with that?"), you go unnoticed for a good part. How exactly does this work?

I was under the impression you would just get a basic letter stating the days/hours you worked, and that comes out to like 4-5 lines...a recommendation seems harder

 

[Adamarama]

Just to add my two cents -- if you are morally opposed to lying, and it seems like you are, then you should avoid doing so. It's generally very visible if you're uncomfortable, and that's when the red flags will come up. On the other hand, if you can stomach throwing out a good bit of BS, then go for it. You certainly won't be the only one.

I think the best skill I ever learned from theatre and creative writing was how to lie my face off without giving anything away. I should probably be ashamed of my personal statement

 

[MedStudentWanna]

I am not one to do this, but I have a physical injury (cast and broken bone) so I was going to volunteer in some form (typing on computer), and exaggerate. BUT...because I hate the idea of lieing, I would actually volunteer 7-8 hours a day for a few weeks during the summer (even if it's after I get accepted to med school) to make up for the exaggeration, that is just the person I am.
What do you guys think? Thanks a lot!

I think you're trying to justify your lying and want the rest of us to tell you it's OK, as if you're being noble by volunteering over the summer to make up for your lie.

 

[Cardiac]

To the OP. Are you not planning on asking the volunteer people for a letter of recommendation? If you put down that you have done 130 hours of patient contact (which is impressive when compared to many pre-med students), and you DON'T get a letter from the people who can vouch for how awesome you are to have spent that much time in such an important position, that would definitely send up some red flags. Especially if you have letters from people who wouldn't rank near the importance of a volunteer coordinator who oversaw you having so much clinical experience.

Honestly, I'm not sure that volunteer coordinators rank very highly on the list of recommenders. If you're involved in school and other extracurriculars, you should have letters written by people at least at the professor level, I would think. I had at least that many volunteer hours, but didn't even consider getting the coordinator to write a letter - it seemed kind of pointless.

 

[Climberak]

My general rule when applying: don't do anything that could later bite you in the butt. Karma sucks.

 

[DrQuack247]

My general rule when applying: don't do anything that could later bite you in the butt. Karma sucks.

whats karma?

it sounds like something a child would believe

 

[dw2158]

whats karma?

it sounds like something a child would believe

LMGTFY.

 

[FutureInternist]

whats karma?

it sounds like something a child would believe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_name_is_earl

 

[DrQuack247]

LMGTFY.

o cool

so is there any word for the opposite

Because when i lie, cheat, and steal, good things happen to me afterwords, such as getting better grades on exams, getting into better medical schools, being admired by my peers, and gaining the trust of my friends.

 

[buccsmf1]

Cheaters suck..... but I don't believe in karma. Had a kid that I took a ton of classes with over our 4 year in college and I must have caught him cheating 5-10 times. He actually got caught cheating in our o-chem lab, I think they allowed him to complete the lab but lowered his grade by 2 letters. He was just one of those douches that wouldn't do his work and then he'd pressure quiet/insecure people into helping him out, or he'd just outright copy their work

..... and of course he gets into the best medical school in the state.

 

[DrQuack247]

Cheaters suck..... but I don't believe in karma. Had a kid that I took a ton of classes with over our 4 year in college and I must have caught him cheating 5-10 times. He actually got caught cheating in our o-chem lab, I think they allowed him to complete the lab but lowered his grade by 2 letters. He was just one of those douches that wouldn't do his work and then he'd pressure quiet/insecure people into helping him out, or he'd just outright copy their work

..... and of course he gets into the best medical school in the state.

and dont think he wont become more successful and make more dollars than you

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Thanks for the response Elijah-

How exactly does someone get caught? If someone volunteers around 100-200 hours at a hospital, 3-4 years from now when they apply, if the Admissions decide to call the hospital and confirm it, how would the hospital remember the activity they did? Do they keep files on you?

If they did keep files though, I'm guessing it's just the amount of hours you volunteered, etc. Basically, how would the hospital remember if you either did "clerical work" or something clinical such as "helped assist children and patients"?

Several things:
1.There are PLENTY of hospitals around that offer more than clerical work, you just have to look harder. There are 3-4 just around where I live that let you get direct patient contact by doing all sorts of cool things with oversight from a nurse. Have you tried looking at any university hospitals around? Those are probably a good place to start.

2. I don't know about the hospital you're at, but the hospital I'm at does in fact keep records on their volunteers, pretty detailed ones too. Every day you have to report the hours and specific task as well as who you did it with, mostly because the hospital I'm at know what premeds are there for. Maybe yours is different, who knows. I wouldn't risk it.

3. Lying means you wont be able to ask for a LOR.

4. If you have 3-4 years left to apply like you said, and you got a different task as soon as your leg healed (which I'm guessing won't be taking more than 3-4 years 😛 ) then you for sure have the time to find a different hospital/clinic, or even a different task. Have you tried talking to the volunteer coordinator? If you're only spending 3 months doing clerical stuff and 3 years doing clinical stuff, then you're not lying anymore.

 

[Mediokyua]

Yeah Lucious, that's exactly correct-

I'm not going to do clerical work forever lol, just until I can actually walk and carry patients around. Until then, it's sit-down things such as clerical work, and reading/playing games with children, things you can do without actually having to move around too much. Once I can actually walk around without having my leg hurt I would move onto using my EMT cert. for the morning time, and then during the daytime over the weekends just work in the ER department doing the "dirty" work mixed in with general stuff like taking vitals and stuff I have learned from courses.

I would figure out how to make the clinical hours longer than the clerical in one way or another lol, it might take extra time but working really long hours for a week or two straight should get me up there if I put in the time and effort

 

[Climberak]

o cool

so is there any word for the opposite

Because when i lie, cheat, and steal, good things happen to me afterwords, such as getting better grades on exams, getting into better medical schools, being admired by my peers, and gaining the trust of my friends.

Funny, 'cause when you get caught you get a lower grade, get kicked out of that better medical school, and lose the respect of your peers afterwards. But please don't take my word for it, go ahead and keep on trying it if you haven't already.

Secondly, do you need to cheat to get the admiration and trust of your friends and piers?

 

[sushichopstickz]

Please don't taint the medical field. No one wants a lying/exaggerating doctor. Do your own work. Write your own experience(s) as accurately & honestly as possible. Remember, "write to express, not to impress."

 

[Appless]

Please don't taint the medical field. No one wants a lying/exaggerating doctor. Do your own work. Write your own experience(s) as accurately & honestly as possible. Remember, "write to express, not to impress."

Thats awesome advice. Adcoms sometimes are impressed just by seeing someone whos truly genuine and not some insane pre med. Though im sure someone will call me a ***** for saying so 😉

 

[CoolWhipp]

o cool

so is there any word for the opposite

Because when i lie, cheat, and steal, good things happen to me afterwords, such as getting better grades on exams, getting into better medical schools, being admired by my peers, and gaining the trust of my friends.

So, the plan is to cheat to get into medical school. Then when you get in, you're going to study your a** off?

 

[Narmerguy]

Thats awesome advice. Adcoms sometimes are impressed just by seeing someone whos truly genuine and not some insane pre med. Though im sure someone will call me a ***** for saying so 😉

Well you are 76...

 

[DrQuack247]

Funny, 'cause when you get caught you get a lower grade, get kicked out of that better medical school, and lose the respect of your peers afterwards. But please don't take my word for it, go ahead and keep on trying it if you haven't already.

Secondly, do you need to cheat to get the admiration and trust of your friends and piers?

Don't be jealous because some can lie to be successful. Everyone has his/her own strengths.

 

[pandoraaj009]

Having integrity means risking the possibility that you might not get into med school based on your actual record. You are saying yes to integrity, and no to "the easy way." If you choose to present a false image of yourself, so be it.

The pressure is intense, so I completely understand the temptation to lie on apps. People justify it by citing the possible benefits--

Because when i lie, cheat, and steal, good things happen to me afterwords, such as getting better grades on exams, getting into better medical schools, being admired by my peers, and gaining the trust of my friends

This person is robbing themselves of the immensely fulfilling experience of hard work. I DID volunteer, and I loved it. It was incredibly satisfying. When I look back at A's I earned in hard classes, I think about the things I learned, the self-discipline I had, etc.

It takes a lot of courage--more than a lot of people have--to face the world as a totally vulnerable, genuine person. I'm certainly not perfect at it. It's risking being judged on how competent you actually are as a pre-med, and the possibility of being rejected because of that. It's really scary. But at the same time, don't disrespect yourself by lying--that's saying that you're not good enough on your own merit. If your app doesn't get it, have the humility and self-respect to believe you can do something about it.

Honesty is risking that, yes, you might not reap the benefits

such as getting better grades on exams, getting into better medical schools, being admired by my peers, and gaining the trust of my friends

but you'll have gained something far better. Be honest for it's own sake, and let the chips fall where they may. Trust that you can handle whatever life throws at you--be it a rejection letter, or an acceptance to your dream school.

 

[bamtuba]

Be honest for it's own sake, and let the chips fall where they may. Trust that you can handle whatever life throws at you--be it a rejection letter, or an acceptance to your dream school.

👍

As a someone who got into their "dream school" for undergraduate work, and having taught high school students, I can say from experience that you really don't want to misrepresent yourself during the interview process.

The thing people tend to forget (or just choose to ignore) is that YOU ARE INTERVIEWING THE SCHOOL AS WELL! The idea of being a "good fit" during the application process is for YOUR protection as well as THEIRS. It is important to remember that you are making decisions now that will impact the rest of your career and you certainly don't want to tell school Y that you LOVE research if you don't, or that you REALLY want to serve rural communities just to meet their mission statement. Most adcoms will see right through you during the interview, but worse yet they might not!

OP, if you haven't had a lot of experience with actual clinical pt. contact, avoid saying that you have. Its one of those things people want to see that you have done so that they know that YOU KNOW what you will be getting yourself into for the next X number of years.

Work hard, be yourself, and have the maturity to faithfully represent what you are really all about during this process. (That's the real secret to how most people get into their dream schools with mediocre MCAT/GPA)

Good

 

[rotatedline]

I would say the complete opposite. If you feel the need to cheat in order to get into medicine when there are people who are qualified to be in medicine without cheating, then you really aren't working hard enough at all. That IS the definition of cheating, after all. I seem to be doing okay, and I can honestly say I haven't cheated all the way here. Not because I have some straight-arrow morality, mind you, but because I really haven't had to at all. Why have you?

To the OP. Are you not planning on asking the volunteer people for a letter of recommendation? If you put down that you have done 130 hours of patient contact (which is impressive when compared to many pre-med students), and you DON'T get a letter from the people who can vouch for how awesome you are to have spent that much time in such an important position, that would definitely send up some red flags. Especially if you have letters from people who wouldn't rank near the importance of a volunteer coordinator who oversaw you having so much clinical experience.

A lot of these admissions guys are selected purely for their ability to pick out details like that. And it's only going to take a single red flag raised in order to make your entire application completely worthless. You just need to decide whether or not that is a risk you want to take.

Hold on. I have over 200 hours of intense patient contact where I was also responsible for training new volunteers, but I do not have a letter from the volunteer coordinator. You're saying that this will throw up a definite red flag for admissions? I have trouble believing that.

 

[sshashid87]

I think along the same lines as the poster above me, I have ~200 hrs (if I include summer before college started, 150 if not) from my main clinical volunteering place (all in escort, no leadership positions), and I'm not getting a letter because I did not work for a single minute with the volunteer coordinator (those were the clerical type jobs anyway) and the most she could say is "He did this many hours...I guess that's good" (also, my hospital uses a rolodex to keep track of hours so I don't even know if she'll have a correct count). I know it'll be completely impersonal compared to the doctor I shadowed, who knows me really well and I only spent 80 hrs with him. I don't think lack of an LOR will be viewed negatively unless you have no LORs from clinical experiences whatsoever, but if you lie about contact experience what are you gonna say in interviews? I don't think this is a good idea, because you're either going to be spurting out a complete/rehearsed lie, or you are going to be digging for info on the spot, and in either case the interviewer will probably be able to see through it. Do some patient stuff when you get your cast off, send update letters and such, and you'll be better off, but the decision is yours I guess.

 

[DocDrakeRamoray]

To the OP. Are you not planning on asking the volunteer people for a letter of recommendation? If you put down that you have done 130 hours of patient contact (which is impressive when compared to many pre-med students), and you DON'T get a letter from the people who can vouch for how awesome you are to have spent that much time in such an important position, that would definitely send up some red flags. Especially if you have letters from people who wouldn't rank near the importance of a volunteer coordinator who oversaw you having so much clinical experience.

A lot of these admissions guys are selected purely for their ability to pick out details like that. And it's only going to take a single red flag raised in order to make your entire application completely worthless. You just need to decide whether or not that is a risk you want to take.

I would say that a poorly written letter by volunteer coordinator could screw up everything. C'mon how many coordinators can write a truly strong letter? they usually don't have experience writing such important letters and could only mess up everything.

I'm asking neither my coordinator nor work supervisor ( I work in healthcare). Not because they have nothing good to say, actually they would say only good things about me (I'm sure), but I am afraid they will say it in not very professional way. I'm not willing to risk! I have strong letters from profs and research supervisors. If adcoms want to hear from my coordinator or work supervisor they can call.

 

[student1799]

Hold on. I have over 200 hours of intense patient contact where I was also responsible for training new volunteers, but I do not have a letter from the volunteer coordinator. You're saying that this will throw up a definite red flag for admissions? I have trouble believing that.

In the adcom hierarchy, volunteer coordinators are seen as nobodies, so their LORs carry very little weight. Much better to get a letter from an MD you encountered during your volunteer work, who knows you well and can vouch for your interest and aptitude for medicine.

I'm asking neither my coordinator nor work supervisor ( I work in healthcare). Not because they have nothing good to say, actually they would say only good things about me (I'm sure), but I am afraid they will say it in not very professional way.

I'm not sure that I agree with you here. An LOR from a healthcare work supervisor would not replace one from a prof or PI, but could be a very valuable "non-academic" letter. (These are required by quite a few schools.) Such an LOR would be expected to comment on your work ethic, responsibility, dedication to patients, and ability to get along with others in the workplace, which are all highly relevant to your potential for success as a doctor. Given that your supervisor is unlikely to be an academic, I don't think the committee would expect the same level of polish and sophistication in their LOR as they would in one from a professor.

 

[vickpick]

Everyone exagerated on their apps, only the n00bs get caught.

 

[lrkoehle]

Hold on. I have over 200 hours of intense patient contact where I was also responsible for training new volunteers, but I do not have a letter from the volunteer coordinator. You're saying that this will throw up a definite red flag for admissions? I have trouble believing that.

I completely agree. ~4 hours per week for a year and you are slightly over 200 hours. That does not seem unreasonable at all to me.

 

[witness23]

if you are gonna lie about something, make it extreme. anyone can say they volunteered for 250 hours. go out on a limb and say you alleviated the symptoms of AIDs by giving high fives or something. thats diversity

 

[DocDrakeRamoray]

.

 

[pandoraaj009]

👍

As a someone who got into their "dream school" for undergraduate work, and having taught high school students, I can say from experience that you really don't want to misrepresent yourself during the interview process.

The thing people tend to forget (or just choose to ignore) is that YOU ARE INTERVIEWING THE SCHOOL AS WELL! The idea of being a "good fit" during the application process is for YOUR protection as well as THEIRS. It is important to remember that you are making decisions now that will impact the rest of your career and you certainly don't want to tell school Y that you LOVE research if you don't, or that you REALLY want to serve rural communities just to meet their mission statement. Most adcoms will see right through you during the interview, but worse yet they might not!

OP, if you haven't had a lot of experience with actual clinical pt. contact, avoid saying that you have. Its one of those things people want to see that you have done so that they know that YOU KNOW what you will be getting yourself into for the next X number of years.

Work hard, be yourself, and have the maturity to faithfully represent what you are really all about during this process. (That's the real secret to how most people get into their dream schools with mediocre MCAT/GPA)

Good

That's a really good point-I tend to foget that sometimes. It's about finding a good match between your perferences and your personality. It's def not about being the perfect applicant for every school!