Exam was identical to the last semester...

[Sardinia]

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I once saw where a student got access to a textbook's question bank. She could have kept it to herself and aced every test, but she shared it around. Luckily not with me, but then when it got found out they all got hammered. The university's position was that if you use sample problems to help you study that's one thing, but once you take the test and the questions were identical then you have the responsibility to report it or it's cheating.

For Rutgers, one of the professors was directly approached by the director of the low income program. This happened roughly 20 minutes before class. It almost looked like the poor guy was being mugged.

 

[efle]

My convo was more about old exams (not stolen) that everyone doesn't have access to.

And you know how they were acquired? Like you're certain these old tests only some people have weren't stolen?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Who says they weren't exact copies?

I asked for clarification about your question. You didn't provide it. I answered anyway, above.

I'm pretty sure you did. You said that some of the questions were recycled. That implies it wasn't exact copies, since if it was, the questions would all be the same.

I also just saw your other post. If you approached the professor and he provided the class with the exams, then you'd be in the clear. But I'm having trouble believing that you don't think it's cheating or at least a bit dishonest to secretly study old tests when you know the exams are likely being recycled.

 

[OchemOficionado]

I'm pretty sure you did. You said that some of the questions were recycled. That implies it wasn't exact copies, since if it was, the questions would all be the same.

I also just saw your other post. If you approached the professor and he provided the class with the exams, then you'd be in the clear. But I'm having trouble believing that you don't think it's cheating or at least a bit dishonest to secretly study old tests when you know the exams are likely being recycled.

I said that some questions from the exams in the test bank in the program for low-income and first generation college students were reused. We are talking about old exams I found on google now.

I don't know why you're confused. I clearly said if anyone KNOWS exams are reused and they memorize an old exam, IT IS CHEATING. We haven't discussed an example of that actually happening on this thread. I think it's agreed upon that that's cheating.

 

[OchemOficionado]

And you know how they were acquired? Like you're certain these old tests only some people have weren't stolen?

We were speaking hypothetically. . .
The example I gave of this in an earlier comment on this post are programs on campuses that provid old exams for certain STEM students as study materials.

 

[DingoPingo]

I am taking an upper division chemistry class and we just had our first exam.

Some students had the old exam (from last semester) that the professor did not provide. Apparently the exam we took this week was identical to the old exam. The professor is the same as the last semester.

The professor however didn't let students keep the exam last semester. He didn't even post the answer keys or go over the exam. He just let the students see it once in class (or can review during office hour). However, some student(s) last semester took the pictures of exam behind his back and sent them to some students who are in the same class as me.

I am so annoyed that 1) some student from last semester was so disrespectful that he/she took the pictures and 2) the professor reused the same exam. The professor tried to prevent the exam from spreading but didn't work haha...

He curves each exam and I'm just so anxious if a lot of students actually knew the answers to the exam beforehand and if I did below the average.

Would you do anything about this?

That's obviously cheating so report anonymously.

 

[redferrari]

Make some friends if it concerns you that much. Your failure to network is only going to hold you back in life.

This sort of thing happened all the time at my undergrad. I knew plenty of people who had old exams, but I refused their offers. Why? Because I knew I wouldn't have access to MCAT questions beforehand and that I would only be harming myself in the long run if I didn't study. Knowing the material is the best way to ensuring satisfactory outcomes, why in the hell would you take a chance on memorizing an old exam? It seems counterproductive.

 

[baratheonfire]

Make some friends if it concerns you that much. Your failure to network is only going to hold you back in life.

This sort of thing happened all the time at my undergrad. I knew plenty of people who had old exams, but I refused their offers. Why? Because I knew I wouldn't have access to MCAT questions beforehand and that I would only be harming myself in the long run if I didn't study. Knowing the material is the best way to ensuring satisfactory outcomes, why in the hell would you take a chance on memorizing an old exam? It seems counterproductive.

Exactly.

 

[efle]

Because I knew I wouldn't have access to MCAT questions beforehand and that I would only be harming myself in the long run if I didn't study. Knowing the material is the best way to ensuring satisfactory outcomes, why in the hell would you take a chance on memorizing an old exam? It seems counterproductive.

What? It's not like you have to memorize the exam and do nothing else for it to be an unfair advantage. I might only think it probable that questions will be recycled, and so I study like I normally would, including this practice exam others can't access that turns out to be an unfair preview of the real test. Pretty bogus to pretend it's either study or memorize, when it can very well be study with some unfairly advantageous materials.

 

[TehTeddy]

I don't understand this "life is unfair, so you should stay silent" logic. How does it follow that, because many students cheat, the best thing to do is accept the situation and test with a disadvantage anyway?

 

[691622]

This happens frequently.

I think reporting it is clearly the right thing to do. Covers your ass and lets the prof know that their exams are no longer valid/integrity is lost because of prior cheaters passing down an unfair advantage. This happens all the time through frats and sports teams.

If the prof does nothing about it then it's on them, you tried at least.

lol @efle why do you think this happens "all the time through frats and sports teams". were you in a fraternity and are capable of giving your expert anecdotal evidence? or are you generalizing because you were never in one and just like stigmatizing them

 

[redferrari]

lol @efle why do you think this happens "all the time through frats and sports teams". were you in a fraternity and are capable of giving your expert anecdotal evidence? or are you generalizing because you were never in one and just like stigmatizing them

My fraternity had a test bank and we had "in's" with certain professors on campus...

 

[691622]

My fraternity had a test bank and we had "in's" with certain professors on campus...

cool, looks like it turned out well for you since you're a med student. if you took advantage of short cuts in your studies then all the more power to you

 

[Gurby]

I find it amusing that if OP had posed this thread as an MMI practice question, the replies would likely be very different.

 

[RogueBanana]

lol @efle why do you think this happens "all the time through frats and sports teams". were you in a fraternity and are capable of giving your expert anecdotal evidence? or are you generalizing because you were never in one and just like stigmatizing them

+1
I was in a fraternity. Most fraternities on campus have "librarys" in which seniors & Juniors place old exams (assuming the prof lets you keep them), returned homework assignments, Lab reports & papers for the younger members to study from. At my school not only is it allowed, but recommended to study from old test materials.

Depending on the most common major in your fraternity (usually it's business, econ, or biology) the fraternity library could have everything you would ever need as a student or almost nothing useful to you.

Other times fraternities will trade pdfs of study materials. I've seen frats with lots of science majors work with business focused frats to improve their study material librarys. Science guys need the old exams for my school's killer econ courses, and the Business guys need help with the insane chemistry tests.

On a more related note, my chem 102 prof let everyone keep their old exams. He also kept the exams 90% similar to the previous years. Seriously there is no way he didn't know people had backtests with every question on them. He even told people who failed "if you re-take this course, keep your old exams and study from them." The guy was a huge stickler during lecture, but looking back I realize he was one of the coolest professors I ever had.

On the other hand, I know a genetics professor who kept his exams the exact same. Then, this last year on the final exam (which he lets students keep) he kept the 1st page the same, and the other 14 pages completely different. More than half the class failed the final and he stood up and told them "It's good to use the resources available to you, but always be prepared for a curveball." smirked and then dismissed class. Nobody had the balls to petition their final grade

If the old exams were obtained dishonestly (as you say), then your classmates are cheating. I would stay out of the entire situation, but I would report them if I was somehow involved (the exam was sent to me via a group text and now I could be pulled down with the rest of them).

Either way, unless you are graded on a curve this doesn't effect you much. Your goal as a pre-med should be to get a perfect score anyway, who gives a crap how the rest of your class does. Study hard, get a 100 and tell the rest of them to get lost, because you did it the honest way.

 

[baratheonfire]

I find it amusing that if OP had posed this thread as an MMI practice question, the replies would likely be very different.

Since it's not, people are actually being honest

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I said that some questions from the exams in the test bank in the program for low-income and first generation college students were reused. We are talking about old exams I found on google now.

Yes. That's the difference. You were talkin about a question bank where some questions are reused. Much different than an entire test being reused where the whole test is available to certain students likely without the professor's knowledge. Finding a test on Google is similarly different, as anyone can find it. I'd still bring it up to the prof though, as he may not know it's available.

I don't know why you're confused. I clearly said if anyone KNOWS exams are reused and they memorize an old exam, IT IS CHEATING. We haven't discussed an example of that actually happening on this thread. I think it's agreed upon that that's cheating.

I'm not confused at all. You seem to be rapidly running through different scenarios in the hopes that I'll conflate them or something.

Test bank provided to certain students to study, some questions may be recycled: fine because I'm sure all the profs know, and it's expected that some questions might be reused--not cheating, just lucky if they happen to catch that.

Prof or school provides old tests to study from so you can prep for the types of exam questions where some may be recycled: same thing as above.

You find old tests on Google and some of the questions are reused: again, I don't really see this as a problem since they are easily available to everyone.

Same as above, but entire test is reused: this is where I start to see a problem. It's could be that the prof knows, but he may not. Your school policy may hem you up here if you don't disclose that the old tests are available if you notice they are being recycled completely.

A bunch of students found old tests from last semester/year, and the first exam is identical to the first exam from this term: definitely cheating if you don't make it known to the professor and get his blessing, as you can simply memorize answers and hope the next exam is recycled. This was the original scenario, I believe.

Hope that clarified my responses to your different scenarios. I'm on my phone and responding between things while on duty, so I apologize if I mix posts up.

 

[RogueBanana]

Yes. That's the difference. You were talkin about a question bank where some questions are reused. Much different than an entire test being reused where the whole test is available to certain students likely without the professor's knowledge. Finding a test on Google is similarly different, as anyone can find it. I'd still bring it up to the prof though, as he may not know it's available.



I'm not confused at all. You seem to be rapidly running through different scenarios in the hopes that I'll conflate them or something.

Test bank provided to certain students to study, some questions may be recycled: fine because I'm sure all the profs know, and it's expected that some questions might be reused--not cheating, just lucky if they happen to catch that.

Prof or school provides old tests to study from so you can prep for the types of exam questions where some may be recycled: same thing as above.

You find old tests on Google and some of the questions are reused: again, I don't really see this as a problem since they are easily available to everyone.

Same as above, but entire test is reused: this is where I start to see a problem. It's could be that the prof knows, but he may not. Your school policy may hem you up here if you don't disclose that the old tests are available if you notice they are being recycled completely.

A bunch of students found old tests from last semester/year, and the first exam is identical to the first exam from this term: definitely cheating if you don't make it known to the professor and get his blessing, as you can simply memorize answers and hope the next exam is recycled. This was the original scenario, I believe.

Hope that clarified my responses to your different scenarios. I'm on my phone and responding between things while on duty, so I apologize if I mix posts up.

Bottom line is, if the professor lets you keep his exams, then you assume they're fair game to study from. If they are identical, the professor obviously either knows or doesn't care.

If someone takes a picture of an exam that is only supposed to be available under secured conditions, it is by definition cheating and gaining an unfair advantage over other students.

 

[691622]

+1
I was in a fraternity. Most fraternities on campus have "librarys" in which seniors & Juniors place old exams (assuming the prof lets you keep them), returned homework assignments, Lab reports & papers for the younger members to study from. At my school not only is it allowed, but recommended to study from old test materials.

Depending on the most common major in your fraternity (usually it's business, econ, or biology) the fraternity library could have everything you would ever need as a student or almost nothing useful to you.

Other times fraternities will trade pdfs of study materials. I've seen frats with lots of science majors work with business focused frats to improve their study material librarys. Science guys need the old exams for my school's killer econ courses, and the Business guys need help with the insane chemistry tests.

On a more related note, my chem 102 prof let everyone keep their old exams. He also kept the exams 90% similar to the previous years. Seriously there is no way he didn't know people had backtests with every question on them. He even told people who failed "if you re-take this course, keep your old exams and study from them." The guy was a huge stickler during lecture, but looking back I realize he was one of the coolest professors I ever had.

On the other hand, I know a genetics professor who kept his exams the exact same. Then, this last year on the final exam (which he lets students keep) he kept the 1st page the same, and the other 14 pages completely different. More than half the class failed the final and he stood up and told them "It's good to use the resources available to you, but always be prepared for a curveball." smirked and then dismissed class. Nobody had the balls to petition their final grade

If the old exams were obtained dishonestly (as you say), then your classmates are cheating. I would stay out of the entire situation, but I would report them if I was somehow involved (the exam was sent to me via a group text and now I could be pulled down with the rest of them).

Either way, unless you are graded on a curve this doesn't effect you much. Your goal as a pre-med should be to get a perfect score anyway, who gives a crap how the rest of your class does. Study hard, get a 100 and tell the rest of them to get lost, because you did it the honest way.

i agree, however I find it amusing when backtests or any material obtained, which gives an unfair advantage and can be called cheating, only comes from "frats and sports teams".

i do agree that most if not all fraternities have libraries of this stuff, but i laugh at the stuff obtained unfaithfully is only applicable to "frats and sports teams"

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Bottom line is, if the professor lets you keep his exams, then you assume they're fair game to study from. If they are identical, the professor obviously either knows or doesn't care.

If someone takes a picture of an exam that is only supposed to be available under secured conditions, it is by definition cheating and gaining an unfair advantage over other students.

Well put.

 

[OchemOficionado]

I'm not confused at all. You seem to be rapidly running through different scenarios in the hopes that I'll conflate them or something.

I'm on my phone and responding between things while on duty, so I apologize if I mix posts up.

Hahhahhahahhaha. Not at all. You are mixing things up. It's not that complex. Come back after work.

 

[RogueBanana]

i agree, however I find it amusing when backtests or any material obtained, which gives an unfair advantage and can be called cheating, only comes from "frats and sports teams".

i do agree that most if not all fraternities have libraries of this stuff, but i laugh at the stuff obtained unfaithfully is only applicable to "frats and sports teams"

I can confirm that frats and sports teams get a bad rep and are blamed for most of this crap.

HOWEVER

As a member of a fraternity, I can honestly tell you most people who cheat aren't in fraternities.

We have mandatory study hours, we all live in the same house so people like me (a paid organic chem tutor for the school) are literally available 24/7 to help people study & answer questions. Other brothers were tutors for the business / biology departments... Its a learning community on steroids. It's what the school was hoping their LLCs would become.

I can't tell you how many times I was woken up at 1 AM by a nervous freshman to walk him through an old organic chemistry test and explain the concepts. Fraternity members at my school don't cheat because we have the resources to make sure our guys are always prepared for the exam the honest way. My frat had the highest GPA on campus because half of us were paid tutors for the school. Our guys don't have to cheat...

Our school has students serve on judiciary committees (peer judges) and like 90% of the time i served it was a non-greek student who was caught cheating.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Hahhahhahahhaha. Not at all. You are mixing things up. It's not that complex. Come back after work.

Totally possible that I confused you with another poster, but my opinion doesn't change. I did see a post of yours that I totally missed where you said that the students in the OP were cheating if they obtained it surreptitiously, so I apologize for missing that. It was baffling me how someone could not think that secretly memorizing an old exam on the hopes that the next one would be identical as well wasn't cheating. 😕

 

[OchemOficionado]

Totally possible that I confused you with another poster, but my opinion doesn't change. I did see a post of yours that I totally missed where you said that the students in the OP were cheating if they obtained it surreptitiously, so I apologize for missing that. It was baffling me how someone could not think that secretly memorizing an old exam on the hopes that the next one would be identical as well wasn't cheating. 😕

I don't think you have me confused with another poster. You don't have to apologize, we were kind of having two different convos at replying to both at the same time. They were meant to stay separate. I don't think the students in the OPs class were memorizing an exam they knew would be reused. I tried to discuss that and that's where some of the confusion started.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don't think you have me confused with another poster. You don't have to apologize, we were kind of having two different convos at replying to both at the same time. They were meant to stay separate. I don't think the students in the OPs class were memorizing an exam they knew would be reused. I tried to discuss that and that's where some of the confusion started.

Ah, yeah missed that part. I do agree that using old exams to study is fine. However, I think disclosure to the professor after the first exam was identical would be necessary to mitigate any accusations of cheating, because I guarantee at least a couple of those people would spend extra time memorizing the old test on the off chance it worked out that way again, and if the prof finds out, you may get hemmed up just knowing about it (or at the very least have to make a statement that you weren't aware of it).

 

[efle]

lol @efle why do you think this happens "all the time through frats and sports teams". were you in a fraternity and are capable of giving your expert anecdotal evidence? or are you generalizing because you were never in one and just like stigmatizing them

I am speaking from anecdotal evidence, yes. But the veracity doesn't hinge on my experiencing it, it's a very widespread phenomenon. Glad to hear it doesn't happen at your chapter/team though.

 

[efle]

which gives an unfair advantage and can be called cheating, only comes from "frats and sports teams".

Oh not at all, plenty of friends and friends of friends totally separate from a team or frat can get access, that's just what I give as an example group. I don't think I said only those two anywhere in any discussion on this subject in the past 6k posts

 

[Sardinia]

This thread combined with ones I've been seeing in allopathic just reinforces my belief that there should be categorical examinations for the core sciences beyond just an MCAT. The problem is when students reach medical school and they can't reverse engineer the examinations because there is no longer a template. So they actually have to memorize what they view as a black hole of minutia and begin to mentally break down from being unable to digest all the material at the pace it's being given that leads to an even fiercer process of baptism by fire.

 

[ortnakas]

Not really sure how you can call circulating material which the professor apparently explicitly specified should not be reproduced or circulated anything other than cheating.

Haven't read the whole thread, but this. If back tests are out there openly (e.g., you get your exam back and it's yours to keep) and faculty don't bother to write a new one, that's on them. It's not a good situation, but I wouldn't call it cheating. If test questions were illicitly gotten and distributed, that's cheating.

 

[Sardinia]

It's funny how people wonder how investors could shamelessly promote the concept of subprime investments when colleges are the breeding ground for this behavior. People become so fascinated by the line between equanimity and illegality. Hey guys! Of course that it's not fair sometimes, but it's still not cheating! And it's cheating which means academic disciplining, but it's not illegal! And it's illegal, but it can be settled! How intelligent, who knew.

 

[Redpancreas]

I am taking an upper division chemistry class and we just had our first exam.

Some students had the old exam (from last semester) that the professor did not provide. Apparently the exam we took this week was identical to the old exam. The professor is the same as the last semester.

The professor however didn't let students keep the exam last semester. He didn't even post the answer keys or go over the exam. He just let the students see it once in class (or can review during office hour). However, some student(s) last semester took the pictures of exam behind his back and sent them to some students who are in the same class as me.

I am so annoyed that 1) some student from last semester was so disrespectful that he/she took the pictures and 2) the professor reused the same exam. The professor tried to prevent the exam from spreading but didn't work haha...

He curves each exam and I'm just so anxious if a lot of students actually knew the answers to the exam beforehand and if I did below the average.

Would you do anything about this?

I would. While mantras like "don't rely on curves" or "study harder and beat them are admirable" it's likely to run OP into a ditch. The only thing you could do is anonymously tip off the professor with compelling evidence. You say he tried to prevent the spread yet it still happened. You'll be surprised how many professors are straight up oblivious and it seems like they don't care but then get super upset when they find out their exam's been breached.

If that doesn't work, tough luck. In the future, be sure to be in the knows about this kind of stuff. I disagree with all the recommendations to network. I have my fair share of friends, but am an introvert at heart so I'm always at risk of missing stuff like this. You don't have to be good friends with any of these people. Just keep your ears open and approach one person about it when their by themselves. Just be nice, the person has nothing to gain but an enemy by refusing.


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[nm06003]

Definitely let the professor know anonymously.


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