$$Examining Salary based on Specialties$$

[git r done]

---

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I know I'm not in med school yet, but like probably most of you I wanted to get a real life example of what I could expect to get paid pre-Obama Health cuts. It really depends on location, places like Montana pay much more than NYC but I found averages to be pretty close. Maybe someone with more experience could comment on the job market?

I did a little search on job markets and took an average of what I saw--generally academics were 30-40% less in pay...

---------------------------------------------------------------
Neurosurgery: $650-750,000 (but loss of your soul)
in case you were wondering academic neurosurgery pays about $350,000 starting

Cardiology (Interventional): $400,000...more like $460,000 (but not much more even when you partner unless you are one of those $700,000+ outliers or the Dean of Clinical Affairs at a med school🙂)

CT: no jobs available although charity work greatly appreciated 🙂 thank you cardiac caths

Opthamology: $300,000 (nice lifestyle tho)

Retinal Surgery: $700,000

GI: $450,000...hot specialty

Derm: $330,000 (w/MOHs) $600,000

Ortho: $600,000 (general) I'm sure you could subspecialize...spinal (give injections like a factory production) and make a boatload more

ENT: $400-500,000

Anesthesiology: $350-400,000...Pain Management more and it depends
My opinion: screw med school and become a CRNA is this appeals to you

Interventional Radiologists: $550-650,000...but this was with an average of 40s a week, in fact a few jobs were $400,000 for 4 days a week and 12 weeks vacation 😱---need I say more? INR

Urologist: $400,000 (not sure on hours and lifestyle for this specialty...)

OB-GYN: $280,000...most likely less but the few outliers make it go up

Plastic Surgery: Depends greatly, anywhere from $250,000 to way up but most on the low side...takes a certain type of person to go into this though

Endocrinology and Pediatrics: $200,000
Family Medicine: $200,000

and why not--> GP with cosmetic on the side: bet they could pull $400,000 easy...no better yet I garauntee that with a little referral base and skill you could be running a successful botox plant and pull that type of money
---------------------------------------------------------------

Note most these incomes are private practice and before buy-in and partnership. With a successful practice and good base you could probably pull a good deal more. Again as everyone always says it more to do with business skills and management then clinical skills.

If you are going into medicine for the money this should be a helpful start. If not, I would think about it anyway cause $250,000 of debt accrued over some 10+ years is a lot to overcome.

Don't know about you but Radiology seems like the best field nowadays...any suggestions on how to secure a match in the future?

Moral of the story: expect much less than these figures once socialized medicine comes into effect but this is a good starting point...If you want to make real money and you attend HYPS go into Finance NOW and never look back son...never look back

Comments? Like what you see, don't?

 

[Parts Unknown]

Don't know about you but Radiology seems like the best field nowadays...any suggestions on how to secure a match in the future?

In the unlikely even that you're not a troll, I have a radiologist in my family and the rads job market is currently tanking. People are still getting jobs, but the Halcyon days are now at thing of the past. Imaging reimbursement has been cut, and there is a huge glut of radiology residents oozing through the pipeline (all expecting tons of job offers and huge salaries, of course).

Moral of the story: expect much less than these figures once socialized medicine comes into effect but this is a good starting point...

Actually most of the health reform deals with pumping money into the private health system, and promoting competition in the individual insurance market through exchanges. The closest thing you'll find to socialism is the expansion of Medicaid, but that's socialized insurance, not socialized delivery.

You may now return to the Blue Collar Comedy Tour reruns on Comedy Central.

 

[royalewthcheese]

The healthcare bill isn't socialized medicine. Like it or not, get your facts straight before you start a thread.

 

[loljkttyl]

Another helpful site of physician compensation which can be sorted by median, starting, and regional salaries:
http://www.cejkasearch.com/compensation/amga_physician_compensation_survey.htm

 

[loljkttyl]

Don't know about you but Radiology seems like the best field nowadays...any suggestions on how to secure a match in the future?

👍 Radiology is an awesome, high-tech, rapidly evolving field regardless of salary. For more information, you can visit AuntMinnie.com's forums: http://www.auntminnie.com/forum/tt.aspx?forumid=9. It's sort of like SDN for people interested in radiology. Also equally addictive!

 

[ButImLETired]

I'm not really sure what your point is...

1) These numbers will probably change in the near future with (theoretically) primary care being compensated more and stuff like radiology being compensated less. They won't just all plummet.

2) There are different numbers on different websites.

3) You picked a seemingly random subset of specialties. You lump general anesthesiology with a subspecialty of cardiology (interventional), etc. You don't take into account years of training and how much money you're losing while you're going through that.

4) Look, I care about salary as much as the next person, but it is WAY overemphasized on this website I think. As a doctor, you won't starve. You also won't be Bill Gates. You either pull in a great deal of money after a ton of training, or you pull in far less after less training. But you won't starve.

Also, yeah, private practice pulls in way more than academia. But it's also very, VERY hard work, and people on this site always make it seem like the promised land. Most private practice docs I know work at least 1.5 times as much as the academic people and they often don't have the benefit of "80% research, 20% clinic" deals where they can make more money through grants and lecturing and have nice hours on lab days.

Ultimately though, you will go into the specialty you love the most. It's that simple. Imagine your least favorite class of all time, then imagine spending 10 hours a day on it, and doing that every single day for 40+ years. It's just the recipe for pure misery. I have met a couple of people who chose their practice based on salary, and they are the ones who hate medicine and blame everything on "the system". There is no amount of money that beats waking up and wanting to go to work cause it's still really cool. Picking your specialty based on the car you're going to get to drive makes just as little sense as picking it based on how competitive it is and how badass it makes you feel. It's also just as immature. Medicine isn't supposed to be a circle jerk, it's your life's work. If you don't love your specialty, you might as well have gone into some kind of mindless desk job and worked your way up the painfully depressing corporate ladder to become yet another suit.

 

[goldandapager]

:troll:

 

[Parts Unknown]

If anyone wants to read something other than gloom: New health-care law might make your doctor more informed, efficient, responsive

A survey of physicians in 119 clinics in New York and the Midwest published in the Annals of Internal Medicine in 2009 found that 48 percent reported working in "chaotic" environments. Thirty percent said they needed at least half again as much time for appointments as they were given. Only a quarter said their practices strongly emphasized quality. Nearly a third said they were likely to leave their jobs in the next two years.

If the new types of practice envisioned by the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act take hold, much of that could change for the better.

"It appears that when a doctor happens to be in a place that moves to a 'medical home' model, they can turn their frustration into excitement again. That is huge," said J. Fred Ralston Jr., president of the American College of Physicians. "We are getting reports that patients are happy, physicians are happy and that, in at least some cases, [these new sorts of practices] are saving money."

 

[longhorn09]

Those numbers seem like too good to be true...

 

[Dr Oops]

I know I'm not in med school yet, but like probably most of you I wanted to get a real life example of what I could expect to get paid pre-Obama Health cuts. It really depends on location, places like Montana pay much more than NYC but I found averages to be pretty close. Maybe someone with more experience could comment on the job market?

I did a little search on job markets and took an average of what I saw--generally academics were 30-40% less in pay...

---------------------------------------------------------------
Neurosurgery: $650-750,000 (but loss of your soul)
in case you were wondering academic neurosurgery pays about $350,000 starting

Cardiology (Interventional): $400,000...more like $460,000 (but not much more even when you partner unless you are one of those $700,000+ outliers or the Dean of Clinical Affairs at a med school🙂)

CT: no jobs available although charity work greatly appreciated 🙂 thank you cardiac caths

Opthamology: $300,000 (nice lifestyle tho)

Retinal Surgery: $700,000

GI: $450,000...hot specialty

Derm: $330,000 (w/MOHs) $600,000

Ortho: $600,000 (general) I'm sure you could subspecialize...spinal (give injections like a factory production) and make a boatload more

ENT: $400-500,000

Anesthesiology: $350-400,000...Pain Management more and it depends
My opinion: screw med school and become a CRNA is this appeals to you

Interventional Radiologists: $550-650,000...but this was with an average of 40s a week, in fact a few jobs were $400,000 for 4 days a week and 12 weeks vacation 😱---need I say more? INR

Urologist: $400,000 (not sure on hours and lifestyle for this specialty...)

OB-GYN: $280,000...most likely less but the few outliers make it go up

Plastic Surgery: Depends greatly, anywhere from $250,000 to way up but most on the low side...takes a certain type of person to go into this though

Endocrinology and Pediatrics: $200,000
Family Medicine: $200,000

and why not--> GP with cosmetic on the side: bet they could pull $400,000 easy...no better yet I garauntee that with a little referral base and skill you could be running a successful botox plant and pull that type of money
---------------------------------------------------------------

Note most these incomes are private practice and before buy-in and partnership. With a successful practice and good base you could probably pull a good deal more. Again as everyone always says it more to do with business skills and management then clinical skills.

If you are going into medicine for the money this should be a helpful start. If not, I would think about it anyway cause $250,000 of debt accrued over some 10+ years is a lot to overcome.

Don't know about you but Radiology seems like the best field nowadays...any suggestions on how to secure a match in the future?

Moral of the story: expect much less than these figures once socialized medicine comes into effect but this is a good starting point...If you want to make real money and you attend HYPS go into Finance NOW and never look back son...never look back

Comments? Like what you see, don't?

Your numbers seem higher than average ive heard. Also there is a shortage of CT surgeons.

If anyone wants to read something other than gloom: New health-care law might make your doctor more informed, efficient, responsive

I dont really see the good in this bill. Its basically a way to move doctors into some giant conglomerate medicine practice. You will have "best buy's" of doctors office, which will inevitably make it easier for the government to switch to single payer.

The administration claimed how important primary care was, but really didnt do enough to make people want to enter primary care. A 10% increase in medicare? wow.


I also recently read an article about how there was some tax clause crammed in the healthcare bill which make make accounting a nightmare for small businesses but earn the government some serious revenue.

Then theres the clause limiting physicians from owning hospitals. This has got to be unconstitutional. A drug dealer can own a hospital but a doctor cant?!?

The only good thing is the end of rescissions. Im not sure how the whole EMR thing will work out. Its very expensive for small practices to employ and ive heard the tax cut provided for having it isnt sufficient to make practices want to spend the capital.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I dont really see the good in this law.

Fixed it for you.

Time will tell all, my friend.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I'm not really sure what your point is...

1) These numbers will probably change in the near future with (theoretically) primary care being compensated more and stuff like radiology being compensated less. They won't just all plummet.

2) There are different numbers on different websites.

3) You picked a seemingly random subset of specialties. You lump general anesthesiology with a subspecialty of cardiology (interventional), etc. You don't take into account years of training and how much money you're losing while you're going through that.

4) Look, I care about salary as much as the next person, but it is WAY overemphasized on this website I think. As a doctor, you won't starve. You also won't be Bill Gates. You either pull in a great deal of money after a ton of training, or you pull in far less after less training. But you won't starve.

Also, yeah, private practice pulls in way more than academia. But it's also very, VERY hard work, and people on this site always make it seem like the promised land. Most private practice docs I know work at least 1.5 times as much as the academic people and they often don't have the benefit of "80% research, 20% clinic" deals where they can make more money through grants and lecturing and have nice hours on lab days.

Ultimately though, you will go into the specialty you love the most. It's that simple. Imagine your least favorite class of all time, then imagine spending 10 hours a day on it, and doing that every single day for 40+ years. It's just the recipe for pure misery. I have met a couple of people who chose their practice based on salary, and they are the ones who hate medicine and blame everything on "the system". There is no amount of money that beats waking up and wanting to go to work cause it's still really cool. Picking your specialty based on the car you're going to get to drive makes just as little sense as picking it based on how competitive it is and how badass it makes you feel. It's also just as immature. Medicine isn't supposed to be a circle jerk, it's your life's work. If you don't love your specialty, you might as well have gone into some kind of mindless desk job and worked your way up the painfully depressing corporate ladder to become yet another suit.

LET, your wisdom and sass are missed in pre-allo!

 

[DrBacchi]

Quit feeding the insurance industry, single-payer system ftw!

 

[jturkel]

most of those numbers (outside of opth, anesth, derm, and plastics) seem rather high. they must be before tax, malpractice...etc if they are somewhat accurate.

also, it is true interventional radiologists make quite a bit. my cousin was one....pulling it 750k a year, he said it was so boring...he hated it so much, he stopped practicing and opened up a smoothie shop. no joke.

 

[mfrizzo3]

most of those numbers (outside of opth, anesth, derm, and plastics) seem rather high. they must be before tax, malpractice...etc if they are somewhat accurate.

also, it is true interventional radiologists make quite a bit. my cousin was one....pulling it 750k a year, he said it was so boring...he hated it so much, he stopped practicing and opened up a smoothie shop. no joke.

Yep. Mixin' fruit and yogurt is a blast.

 

[jturkel]

Yep. Mixin' fruit and yogurt is a blast.

i guess you mights say he had a passion for working with food and making healthy stuff. he just found Interventional Rad boring. So he used some money he made and whallaaa...smoothie shop, which apparently was some kind of lifelong desire for some reason.

 

[TooMuchResearch]

i guess you mights say he had a passion for working with food and making healthy stuff. he just found Interventional Rad boring. So he used some money he made and whallaaa...smoothie shop, which apparently was some kind of lifelong desire for some reason.

Smoothies are good. Makes sense to me. Will look into this option.

 

[DrBacchi]

These salary surveys never tell you how many hours they put in to make that salary. Would be interesting to see those salaries converted to an hourly wage...

So rads is the right residency if you want to become a smoothie doctor?

 

[jturkel]

Smoothies are good. Makes sense to me. Will look into this option.

haha good! lol. and if not, maybe just some part time smoothie making! haha

These salary surveys never tell you how many hours they put in to make that salary. Would be interesting to see those salaries converted to an hourly wage...

So rads is the right residency if you want to become a smoothie doctor?

ROAD = lifestyle careers, so rad, maybe some extra time on the side....so i guess you could get away with opening a smoothie shop and being a doctor of smoothie making lol.

 

[git r done]

In the unlikely even that you're not a troll, I have a radiologist in my family and the rads job market is currently tanking. People are still getting jobs, but the Halcyon days are now at thing of the past. Imaging reimbursement has been cut, and there is a huge glut of radiology residents oozing through the pipeline (all expecting tons of job offers and huge salaries, of course).

Uhhhh so I basically took these numbers from a job recruiting website, hence the numbers are what is being thown out there to graduating fellows and attending right now. Of course, many recruiters do not post hours but there are TONS of threads and websites that specifically list average hours per week.

And if radiology is so highly saturated and crumbling why were there literally 50 pages worth of open positions listed within the past 2 months? Lots of jobs were available in the SW and SE (few in California) and the Midwest. I am sure there is saturation in Northeast (DC up to NE and NY excluding Maine and NH and probab Vermont), most of California, and parts of Florida but isn't there saturation in every field in these parts of the US????

 

[TooMuchResearch]

haha good! lol. and if not, maybe just some part time smoothie making! haha



ROAD = lifestyle careers, so rad, maybe some extra time on the side....so i guess you could get away with opening a smoothie shop and being a doctor of smoothie making lol.

New life plan: Go into IR. Live off $11k per year while in residency/fellowship. Use remaining income for loan payments. Pay off remaining loans within 6 months of landing a job. Squirrel away $2kk (this means million...right?) in the next few years while still living at $11k per year (adjust for inflation as necessary). Retire before the age of 40 and open a smoothie shop...or maybe a pizza place.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Uhhhh so I basically took these numbers from a job recruiting website,

Physician salary data is usually compiled from surveys, which have a host of inherent problems. Moreover, recruiters have every incentive to puff up their salary numbers to attract business. You just have to take their figures with a pound of salt.

And if radiology is so highly saturated and crumbling why were there literally 50 pages worth of open positions listed within the past 2 months?

Per my family member (who does quite a bit of recruiting for his group), over the past couple of years the average number of jobs on the main listing site has gone from ~700 to ~200 (a 70% drop). His previous group, which operates in a major city in the southwest, hasn't hired a single new person in this past year, which is unprecedented.

One of my cousins is married to a radiologist who couldn't find an opening in their major midwestern city, and works ~2 hours away.

I stated that people are still getting jobs, and no doubt there are good positions around, but you have to look at the overall trajectory of the market, which right now is clearly headed down.

Contrary to popular notion, the wide-open radiology market is a relatively new phenomenon. As recently as 1998 a newly trained radiology grad couldn't find a job to save his life, but by 2000 things had turned around completely, and we are now left with this persistent idea that radiology is an endless gravy train. What you will find is that every time a field gets hot it becomes a target for reimbursement cuts and encroachment from other specialties who want a piece of the pie. Over time things will stagnate back down to some steady state.

 

[git r done]

Physician salary data is usually compiled from surveys, which have a host of inherent problems. Moreover, recruiters have every incentive to puff up their salary numbers to attract business. You just have to take their figures with a pound of salt.



Per my family member (who does quite a bit of recruiting for his group), over the past couple of years the average number of jobs on the main listing site has gone from ~700 to ~200 (a 70% drop). His previous group, which operates in a major city in the southwest, hasn't hired a single new person in this past year, which is unprecedented.

One of my cousins is married to a radiologist who couldn't find an opening in their major midwestern city, and works ~2 hours away.

I stated that people are still getting jobs, and no doubt there are good positions around, but you have to look at the overall trajectory of the market, which right now is clearly headed down.

Contrary to popular notion, the wide-open radiology market is a relatively new phenomenon. As recently as 1998 a newly trained radiology grad couldn't find a job to save his life, but by 2000 things had turned around completely, and we are now left with this persistent idea that radiology is an endless gravy train. What you will find is that every time a field gets hot it becomes a target for reimbursement cuts and encroachment from other specialties who want a piece of the pie. Over time things will stagnate back down to some steady state.

Thanks, that actually makes a lot of sense now.

So basically the basic adage of "going into a field you are really interested in" really does make sense. Radiology and spinal surgery could take massive hits just as MOHs surgery and the lack of reimbursement would nullify alot of the steep inflation. On the other hand some new technique in Urology could spark a massive reimbursement in certain procedures. If you hit the market at the right time (say Cardiology in the mid 80s or Lasik in the early 90s) you could theoretically make a killing in a few years before everyone catches on and competition drives the market down (ie: supply demand). Radioly is a perfect example as is Optham. ie: Lasik.

It would be interesting if someone could compile a list of comparative changes in salary across the specialties within the past 20 years. Are there any specialties out there where you can basically pick your area of practice and get the high salary you want.

 

[MossPoh]

Physician salary data is usually compiled from surveys, which have a host of inherent problems. Moreover, recruiters have every incentive to puff up their salary numbers to attract business. You just have to take their figures with a pound of salt.



Per my family member (who does quite a bit of recruiting for his group), over the past couple of years the average number of jobs on the main listing site has gone from ~700 to ~200 (a 70% drop). His previous group, which operates in a major city in the southwest, hasn't hired a single new person in this past year, which is unprecedented.

One of my cousins is married to a radiologist who couldn't find an opening in their major midwestern city, and works ~2 hours away.

I stated that people are still getting jobs, and no doubt there are good positions around, but you have to look at the overall trajectory of the market, which right now is clearly headed down.

Contrary to popular notion, the wide-open radiology market is a relatively new phenomenon. As recently as 1998 a newly trained radiology grad couldn't find a job to save his life, but by 2000 things had turned around completely, and we are now left with this persistent idea that radiology is an endless gravy train. What you will find is that every time a field gets hot it becomes a target for reimbursement cuts and encroachment from other specialties who want a piece of the pie. Over time things will stagnate back down to some steady state.

Couldn't find a job or couldn't find a job that met his or her standards? I am only a med student and I know of more than 10 jobs off the top of my head within 2 hours of several different major midwestern cities...Heck, my dad's group had several jobs open for quite sometime and nobody came calling. It was good pay, fast partnership with minimal buy-in, it was just not in the super desirable area that many people search for.

 

[Slack3r]

Salaries WILL go down. It's just a matter of how much and how fast. Looking at these salaries as a premed is pointless, it will be a minimum of 7 years before you're actually getting job offers. By then we could have single payer or the economy could collapse or we could all be speaking Chinese. There is no panacea in medicine, especially not in a society where A-Rod can hit a ball for $27million a year and be a national icon but a doctor making $200k is a greedy fascist pig.

 

[Ischemic]

You should choose a specialty based on how INTERESTING and engaging you find it. Something you see yourself NEVER getting bored into, because in the end you will be compensated enough that you will have enough to provide for your family and your own needs. Even family medicine specialties, you can make enough to live comfortably if you see yourself doing this day in and day out. To choose something based solely on money is flawed at best. You will hate doing it for the rest of your life and that's unfortunate.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Are there any specialties out there where you can basically pick your area of practice and get the high salary you want.

Depends on your definition of a high salary. The quintessential money/lifestyle specialty is derm, which explains its competitiveness. In most other specialties you will have to make some sort of trade off. Ortho can make serious bank, but it's still surgery. Anesthesiologists can make some good money at what is essentially shift work, but you have to like the nature of it or you'll blow your brains out.

So basically the basic adage of "going into a field you are really interested in" really does make sense.

Absolutely. Anything else is like trying to time the stock market. There has been a lot of interesting research in the area of so-called "happiness economics." While still controversial, there appear to be non-monetary things that can improve your quality of life to the equivalent of hundreds of thousands of dollars of annual income. Cultivating good relationships with your family is one, and developing and maintaining lifelong friendships is another.

The fundamental mistake people make is they think happiness relies on income, so they set about to maximize income and in the process find themselves overworked and alienated. The other thing that sucks about money obsession is that there will always be somebody else with more of it. Last night I heard the tale of one of the semi-retired partners from a friend's group. The guy made a killing and now spends most of the year on his 125 foot yacht. But he was lamenting that when his was being built there was a 189 footer being built next to it, which he coveted. Sucks to be him.

In the end, if you pick your specialty based on interest, live within your means (whatever they are), have control of your life outside of work, and keep friends around, in the long run you will lead a full and satisfying existence.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Couldn't find a job or couldn't find a job that met his or her standards?

Not sure the exact answer to that, but he has been looking and coming up dry. Perhaps he's a lousy candidate, but if the market were flush even substandard radiologists should have opportunities. Their main house (with the pasture and horses) is in one city, and he drives to the other and lives in a little apartment when he's working. It's not a good existence, and I'm fairly sure he'd get out of it ASAP if given the chance.