"Expert" (Surgical Oncology Fellow) talks about Steve Jobs' Cancer

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coralfangs

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He clearly doesn't appear to be an "expert," but was anything he said that out of line? I'm all for alternative treatments if they make you feel better, but there's just no empirical data to back them up. I won't make any more judgments because, like the expert, I don't have all the facts (not even close).

A sad day, surely, but maybe a warning to those out there in similar situations. So many people think medicine is this money-hungry machine that chews patients up and spits them out with no regard for life whatsoever. More often than not, though, docs know what they're talking about and I'd like to think they usually have the patient's best interests at heart.
 
He clearly doesn't appear to be an "expert," but was anything he said that out of line? I'm all for alternative treatments if they make you feel better, but there's just no empirical data to back them up. I won't make any more judgments because, like the expert, I don't have all the facts (not even close).

A sad day, surely, but maybe a warning to those out there in similar situations. So many people think medicine is this money-hungry machine that chews patients up and spits them out with no regard for life whatsoever. More often than not, though, docs know what they're talking about and I'd like to think they usually have the patient's best interests at heart.

I just found his post to be rude given that the public figure he was talking about just recently passed away. Now he suddenly felt to have the right to question that person's choice of medicine.
You never know what stage of cancer Jobs has at the time of diagnosis and you never how he made the decision on alternative medicine.
It's almost as bad as automatically assuming an adolescent who was tested positive for HIV that he contracted the virus through homosexual intercourse without considering that he could've gotten it from vertical transmission or something.

You know, be more sensitive.


ps: calling himself a surgical onc fellow is not politically correct. It's as if the communication technician serving a Special Op team telling people that he is a Special Force solider. He is a research associate on a scholarship not a surgical oncology fellow at Harvard.


ps#2: he actually removed that "surgical oncology fellow" from his title after people started pointing it out
 
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i read a couple replies:

Here's one from a faculty in the division of onc at pitts.


AB, oncologist
Look, Dr. Amri

Your answer may be nice, but it is wrong.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that I am a Professor of Medicine and Associate Chief of Medical Oncology at a major medical center, so I do know what I am talking about.

From my understanding of the literature as well as my personal experience with this kind of tumor as well as my understanding of Mr. Jobs condition from reading between the lines of what has been reported, this is what likely happened:

Mr. Jobs was diagnosed with a neuroendocrine tumor of the pancreas which, like a great majority of these tumors, likely had micrometastatic spread at diagnosis. I agree that he likely had a resection of the tumor, whether through a Whipple procedure or another less radical procedure. Whether he had some liver involvement at diagnosis is unclear, but my bet is that he had some minimal liver abnormalities on CT of unclear significance, and they went ahead with the surgery given his age and his desires.

As you likely know as a surgical fellow (not as a Harvard Cancer Expert as Gawker claims you are this AM -- that's right, this has hit the mainstream media), neuroendocrine tumors of the pancreas do not respond all that well to cytotoxic chemotherapy. There are a few older papers in the literature on intrahepatic chemotherapy with anthracyclines, as well as papers on 5-FU and streptozocin systemic therapy. Most of the papers give median survivals for this disease of 6-8 years.

I suspect that Mr. Jobs liver metastases showed up within a few years of diagnosis, and he did get systemic and likely intrahepatic chemotherapy. Some pictures released of Mr. Jobs sometime in the late 2000s show him with no hair.

As you also likely know, the major complications of these tumors have to do with the hormones they secrete. That is why Mr. Jobs had his weight loss.

You also know that he had a liver transplant in 2009 at a hospital in Memphis, likely because the tumor burden in his liver was such, and the systemic symptoms such (i.e. the weight loss), that a heroic effort was a reasonable option. It gave all of us two more years of Mr. Jobs.

The reason for his cancer progression and likely death was progressive tumor in either the abdomen (carcinomatous peritonitis with attendant bowel obstruction--the most likely scenario) or recolonization of his liver with metastases (less likely).

He outlived the median survival of his disease by a few years.

Whether he used alternative therapies or not had absolutely no effect on his survival or outcome--that was dictated from day one by his tumor and its biology, and our lack of effective therapies for this condition.

Sorry for this rant, but it is disingenuous for a surgical fellow with minimal if any real world clinical experience to be making statements like the one you did, not matter how helpful they may or may not be in getting people to not ignore the signs and symptoms of cancer.

As you have seen yourself, these comments get picked up by the mainstream media. With all good intentions by everyone, they inflame a situation with information which is likely incorrect, and potentially may cause harm to Mr. Jobs family if they were to read them.

Let this be a good lesson for you as you finish your surgical training.
 
This guy isn't even in his surgical training. And why is he claiming to be a medical student or whatever if he only has a master's and not enrolled as a medical student at HMS but rather a researcher? I have no issue with researchers, heck I'm in research, but I'm at a loss as to why he's misrepresenting himself in his rambles.
 
not really sure why this is a topic on this forum.

OP, why do you care? Steve Jobs wasn't Jesus Christ. The guy was the head of apple and made computers and a cool phone...
 
I like having something different on here instead of the usual "OMG PHARM BUUUUHLOOOOWS" and "WHY I HATE MED SCHOOL." And I don't think the OP was overly upset...he just found it in bad taste and a little crass, which I can agree with.

However, I will agree that some people have been acting as though Steve Jobs was Mother Teresa. The guy was brilliant sure, but you're right, he made computers and phones.
 
As someone who doesn't own an iphone or apple computer (just an ipod for the stupid med-related apps), I don't think Jobs is god and try to defend him. I do admire his business skills though fyi.

Nonetheless, I was more angry (just a little) at that post.
Not only did he try to impose as a doctor, his post is also a little "too soon" and "not accurate". Just a lot of badtaste from different angels. He basically thinks by working at a lab for 1.5 years, he is qualified to give professional opinion as a MD and discusses about a public-figure with whom he's never had professional interaction (you just don't go publicly saying, "oh this patient should've done this, that patient should've done that" because you don't know the circumstances and exact disease progression for the particular patients).

What's even more pathetic is that online publications basically claim he's a Harvard Cancer Expert without looking into his credential (I did it just by googling just for curiosity) and agree with his inaccurate assessment (he doomed himself for not seeking help? he went through transplant surgery.....)
 
The guy downplays PNETs a bit too much. They're not as bad as adenocarcinoma, but they're still a serious malignancy.
 
i read a couple replies:

Here's one from a faculty in the division of onc at pitts.


AB, oncologist
Look, Dr. Amri

Your answer may be nice, but it is wrong.

Let's just say for the sake of argument that I am a Professor of Medicine and Associate Chief of Medical Oncology at a major medical center, so I do know what I am talking about.

From my understanding of the literature as well as my personal experience with this kind of tumor as well as my understanding of Mr. Jobs condition from reading between the lines of what has been reported, this is what likely happened:

Mr. Jobs was diagnosed with a neuroendocrine tumor of the pancreas which, like a great majority of these tumors, likely had micrometastatic spread at diagnosis. I agree that he likely had a resection of the tumor, whether through a Whipple procedure or another less radical procedure. Whether he had some liver involvement at diagnosis is unclear, but my bet is that he had some minimal liver abnormalities on CT of unclear significance, and they went ahead with the surgery given his age and his desires.

As you likely know as a surgical fellow (not as a Harvard Cancer Expert as Gawker claims you are this AM -- that's right, this has hit the mainstream media), neuroendocrine tumors of the pancreas do not respond all that well to cytotoxic chemotherapy. There are a few older papers in the literature on intrahepatic chemotherapy with anthracyclines, as well as papers on 5-FU and streptozocin systemic therapy. Most of the papers give median survivals for this disease of 6-8 years.

I suspect that Mr. Jobs liver metastases showed up within a few years of diagnosis, and he did get systemic and likely intrahepatic chemotherapy. Some pictures released of Mr. Jobs sometime in the late 2000s show him with no hair.

As you also likely know, the major complications of these tumors have to do with the hormones they secrete. That is why Mr. Jobs had his weight loss.

You also know that he had a liver transplant in 2009 at a hospital in Memphis, likely because the tumor burden in his liver was such, and the systemic symptoms such (i.e. the weight loss), that a heroic effort was a reasonable option. It gave all of us two more years of Mr. Jobs.

The reason for his cancer progression and likely death was progressive tumor in either the abdomen (carcinomatous peritonitis with attendant bowel obstruction--the most likely scenario) or recolonization of his liver with metastases (less likely).

He outlived the median survival of his disease by a few years.

Whether he used alternative therapies or not had absolutely no effect on his survival or outcome--that was dictated from day one by his tumor and its biology, and our lack of effective therapies for this condition.

Sorry for this rant, but it is disingenuous for a surgical fellow with minimal if any real world clinical experience to be making statements like the one you did, not matter how helpful they may or may not be in getting people to not ignore the signs and symptoms of cancer.

As you have seen yourself, these comments get picked up by the mainstream media. With all good intentions by everyone, they inflame a situation with information which is likely incorrect, and potentially may cause harm to Mr. Jobs family if they were to read them.

Let this be a good lesson for you as you finish your surgical training.

Wouldn't the professor be guessing just as much as this Amri guy? Unless the post has been edited, it doesn't seem that the guy misrepresents himself. "Research Fellow" is a commonly used title, and I think any assumption made that the guy was pgy6-9+ surgical onc clinical fellow is the "bad" of the person who made that leap. This guy, and now I'm assuming, looks like he's a European medical student at Harvard on a research scholarship. He made it clear he was only giving his opinion based on his experience. I don't think I necessarily buy his point here, though I don't know much (or want to know) much about the specific chemotherapies for cancer (I simply try and keep them alive when they stumble in half-dead, neutropenic, and septic after heme/onc has give them their newest batch of "magic") - this looks like a lot of much ado about nothing, though some folks did use it to swing their e-dicks around, a behavior I find stupid unless I'm the one swingin' it around 😀
 
Wouldn't the professor be guessing just as much as this Amri guy? Unless the post has been edited, it doesn't seem that the guy misrepresents himself. "Research Fellow" is a commonly used title, and I think any assumption made that the guy was pgy6-9+ surgical onc clinical fellow is the "bad" of the person who made that leap. This guy, and now I'm assuming, looks like he's a European medical student at Harvard on a research scholarship. He made it clear he was only giving his opinion based on his experience. I don't think I necessarily buy his point here, though I don't know much (or want to know) much about the specific chemotherapies for cancer (I simply try and keep them alive when they stumble in half-dead, neutropenic, and septic after heme/onc has give them their newest batch of "magic") - this looks like a lot of much ado about nothing, though some folks did use it to swing their e-dicks around, a behavior I find stupid unless I'm the one swingin' it around 😀

He edited his title. He originally called himself a "Surgical Oncology Fellow" not a "research fellow". I don't think people would be upset about misrepresentation if he called himself a research fellow from the start. He isn't a medical student though, nor on the European system. He graduated with a political science degree and then got a one year master's (a research degree) at a medical school in Amsterdam. His CV is posted on his blog.
 
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He edited his title. He originally called himself a "Surgical Oncology Fellow" not a "research fellow". I don't think people would be upset about misrepresentation if he called himself a research fellow from the start. He isn't a medical student though, nor on the European system. He graduated with a political science degree and then got a one year master's (a research degree) at a medical school in Amsterdam. His CV is posted on his blog.

Well. That does explain that much.
 
i read a couple replies:

Here's one from a faculty in the division of onc at pitts.

I don't get it, what does any of that have to do with anything? Isn't the claim that Jobs waited to get a surgical resection until he had spent months doing "alternative medicine" and that may have been when the tumor metastasized? It's unknowable but no less plausible than the guy writing this just tossing off in one line that it had "likely metastasized before detection" with no support. Seems like misdirection when he then rattles on for paragraphs about irrelevant things that happened after it had become uncurable.
 
I don't get it, what does any of that have to do with anything? Isn't the claim that Jobs waited to get a surgical resection until he had spent months doing "alternative medicine" and that may have been when the tumor metastasized? It's unknowable but no less plausible than the guy writing this just tossing off in one line that it had "likely metastasized before detection" with no support. Seems like misdirection when he then rattles on for paragraphs about irrelevant things that happened after it had become uncurable.

I was kind of thinking the same thing.
 
You can't analyze how to make better treatment decisions if you don't actually know the details of the disease course or how it was treated. Both the original article writer and the faculty member who replied to the article are wasting their time.
 
not really sure why this is a topic on this forum.

OP, why do you care? Steve Jobs wasn't Jesus Christ. The guy was the head of apple and made computers and a cool phone...

That's a more significant contribution than Jesus Christ ever made. Damn carpenters..
 
My uninformed opinion that has nothing at all to do with the thread: Jobs was a ****.
 
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Didn't he have an insulinoma? aka the only islet cell neuroendocrine tumor that probably could have been cured had he sought actual medical treatment?

Also this thread is 2 1/2 years old.

I was wondering why people were so sensitive about one guy's opinion until I saw this was posted in 2011.

I have heard that he did a bunch of alternative stuff and that if he had just done what doctors told him he may have survived. Without an exact diagnosis and staging of his cancer though, it's really impossible for any of us to say how things could have been different.
 
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