Extended Fractionation bone mets

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PhotonBomb

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To probably no one’s surprise, southerners that have been in practice for more 30 years most likely to utilize 40/20 for bone mets

It’s mostly Florida I bet

Interesting analysis



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40/20 for bone mets should be considered malpractice smh


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Tell the ABR. If they nuked lifetime BC certificates tomorrow, you'd fix the problem in a heartbeat. @scarbrtj absolutely nailed it

I mean not really?

Someone can easily pass a BS certification continuing education thing and still over treat for financial gain

As a newer grad I’m totally
Aware of other contemporaries of mine who are in quite entrepreneurial type setups where they are definitely over treating and over billing.

This is more of an indictment of the billing system IMO
 
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I mean not really?

Someone can easily pass a BS certification continuing education thing and still over treat for financial gain

As a newer grad I’m totally
Aware of other contemporaries of mine who are in quite entrepreneurial type setups where they are definitely over treating and over billing.

This is more of an indictment of the billing system IMO

No doubt. But the study was very clear about who was doing it and they broke it down in the results. Knowing many who graduated med school >20 years ago in rad onc, it's mainly that one group that's guilty.
 
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40/20 for bone mets should be considered malpractice smh


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the thing I’m wondering is, was it ever acceptable to treat bone mets 40/20 when the boomers were training?

Does this have to do with out of date rad oncs or just greed?
 
I mean not really?

Someone can easily pass a BS certification continuing education thing and still over treat for financial gain

As a newer grad I’m totally
Aware of other contemporaries of mine who are in quite entrepreneurial type setups where they are definitely over treating and over billing.

This is more of an indictment of the billing system IMO
Tell the ABR. If they nuked lifetime BC certificates tomorrow, you'd fix the problem in a heartbeat. @scarbrtj absolutely nailed it
The process has morphed into BS. About 10 years ago, the ABR's stance was everyone has to take a Clinical Board Exam Lite of about 150 questions, many questions quizzing on the latest studies, at a PearsonVue center every 10 years. On top of the PQI and CME etc. That was pretty annoying but a lot more "challenging" than the 2-a-week OLA we got now which I feel to be a wasted mini-mental status exam ("What does a physicist do?" "Should plans be approved before treating a patient?" etc) on an age group at low risk for dementia. I'm not really complaining on my end, but in comparison to the complete lack of MOC hassle for full boomers, it's pretty unfair IMHO. And now that we have hard data that the zero-MOCers are hurting patients, and the logic from the ABR is that MOC protects patient safety... Well just like supervision for thee but not for me, there's also MOC for thee but not for me in our ranks too. Protecting patient safety is a very malleable thing for this (ASTRO and) ABR group.
 
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Are we now just using Boomer for people we don't like? That's what this forum has done. There is an actual definition (born between '44 and '64). The majority of boomers (true boomer, not SDN definition) are 65 and over. Not a large proportion of practicing docs are boomers.

That being said, yeah, older docs in all specialties more likely to do outdated + high reimbursed interventions.

But, in rad onc, it's more than that. It's the kids who join the many CA, TX, AZ, FL practices that are reimbursed purely on RVU that lead to this continuing.

And, there can be disagreement with this (and there will be), but they used >10 fractions as inappropriate. I would say >5 is inappropriate for nearly all bone mets. People will twist themselves into pretzels ('large soft tissue component', 'too many vertebra', 'long life expectancy', blah, blah, blah), but 1-5 is appropriate for pain for a bone met. If that definition is used, I don't think the age thing will be as much of factor.
 
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Are we now just using Boomer for people we don't like? That's what this forum has done. There is an actual definition (born between '44 and '64). The majority of boomers (true boomer, not SDN definition) are 65 and over. Not a large proportion of practicing docs are boomers.
I think those in their mid to late 50s fall into that category as well?

 
But, in rad onc, it's more than that. It's the kids who join the many CA, TX, AZ, FL practices that are reimbursed purely on RVU that lead to this continuing.

APM will solve that. Hopefully it will also solve the Dana's and Anderson's getting paid way more for 1fx than the community center for 5....
 
Can we agree that too many fractions AND charging too much are both problems?

Every time someone brings up fractions, there is "yeah but sloan charges more"

I mean those are two different issues. Yes, we should less fractions. Yes, sloan should charge less.

Walk, then chew gum. See, that's not hard.. Now ... let's try to do it together! Also not hard!
 
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Can we agree that too many fractions AND charging too much are both problems?

Every time someone brings up fractions, there is "yeah but sloan charges more"

I mean those are two different issues. Yes, we should less fractions. Yes, sloan should charge less.

Walk, then chew gum. See, that's not hard.. Now ... let's try to do it together! Also not hard!

God yes
 
Can we agree that too many fractions AND charging too much are both problems?

Every time someone brings up fractions, there is "yeah but sloan charges more"

I mean those are two different issues. Yes, we should less fractions. Yes, sloan should charge less.

Walk, then chew gum. See, that's not hard.. Now ... let's try to do it together! Also not hard!
From a purely financial standpoint, the NCI centers charging 3-5x more and cherry picking which insurances (i.e. no HMO or Medicaid) they want to take is as big, if not a bigger problem, it just doesn't seem to get the same press, unfortunately.

Personally, the Moffitt's/Sloane's/Farbers not taking Medicaid, charging more to Medicare, and (probably) charging a nice cash price to overseas VIP private pts bothers me more than the some shyster in Texas over-fractionating a bone met. They both bother me though and they both should be called out by ASTRO leadership.

 
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From a purely financial standpoint, the NCI centers charging 3-5x more and cherry picking which insurances (i.e. no HMO or Medicaid) they want to take is as big, if not a bigger problem, it just doesn't seem to get the same press, unfortunately.

Personally, the Moffitt's/Sloane's/Farbers not taking Medicaid, charging more to Medicare, and (probably) charging a nice cash price to overseas VIP private pts bothers me more than the some shyster in Texas over-fractionating a bone met. They both bother me though and they both should be called out by ASTRO leadership.


The big money is in the rates they negotiate with commercial insurers and Medicare supplemental plans!
 
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Can we agree that too many fractions AND charging too much are both problems?

Every time someone brings up fractions, there is "yeah but sloan charges more"

I mean those are two different issues. Yes, we should less fractions. Yes, sloan should charge less.

Walk, then chew gum. See, that's not hard.. Now ... let's try to do it together! Also not hard!
They are both problems, but one is worse. We have loads of evidence going back 20 years that on a macroscopic level the United States does not utilize more resources but that we charge more in health care. I can shoe you a ton of data from jama nejm etc going back to the seminal it’s the prices stupid” that prices are the seminal problem. Where is the data that on a population level we are delivering more radiation that other western countries?
 
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I've seen single thoracic vertebra treated 8 Gy x 1... using cyberknife SRS with neurosurgery on board. When of course standard palliation was appropriate.
At an NCI center in a captive market, that probably costs as much as 15-20 fx of 3D at a freestanding center
 
They are both problems, but one is worse. We have loads of evidence going back 20
Years that on a macroscopic level the United States does not utilize more resources but that we charge more in health care.

this true?

the US definitely spends too much money, but part of it is increased testing and interventions, which clearly don't improve outcomes on a macroscopic level
 
They are both problems, but one is worse. We have loads of evidence going back 20
Years that on a macroscopic level the United States does not utilize more resources but that we charge more in health care.
"It's the prices, stupid"

 
Are we now just using Boomer for people we don't like? That's what this forum has done. There is an actual definition (born between '44 and '64). The majority of boomers (true boomer, not SDN definition) are 65 and over. Not a large proportion of practicing docs are boomers.

That being said, yeah, older docs in all specialties more likely to do outdated + high reimbursed interventions.

But, in rad onc, it's more than that. It's the kids who join the many CA, TX, AZ, FL practices that are reimbursed purely on RVU that lead to this continuing.

And, there can be disagreement with this (and there will be), but they used >10 fractions as inappropriate. I would say >5 is inappropriate for nearly all bone mets. People will twist themselves into pretzels ('large soft tissue component', 'too many vertebra', 'long life expectancy', blah, blah, blah), but 1-5 is appropriate for pain for a bone met. If that definition is used, I don't think the age thing will be as much of factor.
actually I detest ageism. All -isms really. I should just say zero-MOCers! But there is a component of "fear of hypofx" that was instilled as a course of training in the very distant past. In 2004, talking about 17/2 for lung CA palliation...

"Woven into the fiber of most radiation oncologists trained in the United States is the belief that prolonging the course of therapy will provide more durable tumor control and symptom relief. While American radiation oncologists may be comfortable with regimens of 30 Gy in 10 fractions or even 20 Gy in five fractions, the pen starts to quiver when writing a prescription for extreme hypofractionation (eg, one or two fractions)."
 
this true?

the US definitely spends too much money, but part of it is increased testing and interventions, which clearly don't improve outcomes on a macroscopic level
You would intuitively think that but it doesn’t seem to be the case: we are not testing more and utilizing more. We are just charging higher prices.
 
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Will certainly help, but hospital prices are single worst offenders.

well yes hospital admins and hospitals acting as corporations is a big problem too.

got to get money out of medicine is the bottom line
 
maybe the people doing like 40/20 or like 60-70/30-35 just aren’t comfortable with sbrt for a bone met in a patient they foresee may live longer or benefit from a more aggresive approach per recent oligomet data? Could be??!!
 
maybe the people doing like 40/20 or like 60-70/30-35 just aren’t comfortable with sbrt for a bone met in a patient they foresee may live longer or benefit from a more aggresive approach per recent oligomet data? Could be??!!

This post doesn’t make sense.

What are you trying to say
 
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got to get money out of medicine is the bottom line

You can't possibly think it's this simple. Can you? How do you "get the money out of medicine?" How do you expect to be paid? My medicare patients sure seem worried about how they are paying for their healthcare. I guess someone forgot to tell them it's free? You went to med school to sign up to be a government employee? Everything the government touches turns to bloated, mismanaged, horribly cost-inefficient garbage. They suck at basically everything. Private industry always does better. Who's immediately stepping up and making all these COVID vaccines and drugs (Hint: It's not the government: Pipeline: Investigational Therapies for COVID-19 - MPR)

Just nationalize healthcare and problem solved?
The US has the best healthcare system in the world. There is a reason people flee their crappy socialized systems and come here for treatment.

We have the best cancer outcomes in the world.

Are there problems? Sure. But we're still the best.

The Bernie Sanders idiotic idea of just printing eleventy billion trillion dollars and throwing it blindly at the system isn't going to make us better.
Problem? What problem? Billionaires! Did somebody say breadlines?!

The current efforts to help with pricing transparency are a huge step in the right direction. It's not about "getting the money out of medicine," It's about getting the cronyism out of it and making it have to abide by free market principles like other industries. Capitalism works and it's why we're the best.
 
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Someone just printed trillions this year and it wasn't Bernie, hell he made the IRS put his damn name on the checks....

Surely you are not referring to the stimulus package that was approved unanimously by a 96-0 vote in the senate?
You just can't help yourself, can you?
 
You can't possibly think it's this simple. Can you? How do you "get the money out of medicine?" How do you expect to be paid? My medicare patients sure seem worried about how they are paying for their healthcare. I guess someone forgot to tell them it's free? You went to med school to sign up to be a government employee? Everything the government touches turns to bloated, mismanaged, horribly cost-inefficient garbage. They suck at basically everything. Private industry always does better. Who's immediately stepping up and making all these COVID vaccines and drugs (Hint: It's not the government: Pipeline: Investigational Therapies for COVID-19 - MPR)

Just nationalize healthcare and problem solved?
The US has the best healthcare system in the world. There is a reason people flee their crappy socialized systems and come here for treatment.

We have the best cancer outcomes in the world.

Are there problems? Sure. But we're still the best.

The Bernie Sanders idiotic idea of just printing eleventy billion trillion dollars and throwing it blindly at the system isn't going to make us better.
Problem? What problem? Billionaires! Did somebody say breadlines?!

The current efforts to help with pricing transparency are a huge step in the right direction. It's not about "getting the money out of medicine," It's about getting the cronyism out of it and making it have to abide by free market principles like other industries. Capitalism works and it's why we're the best.

Best meaning ...

Access?

Quality?

Cost-effectiveness?

Patient satisfaction?

Best in terms of what the Frontier Biryani Connoisseur deems to be most important, but I think that health care economists of all political persuasions may strenuously disagree about "best" because that depends on how you define it.

(I think it's the best place to train, best place to be a cancer patient, best place to be a very, very sick child, probably financially best for doctors. All important things. It's not cost effective, it's not great for lifestyle modification, it's not great in terms of paperwork for doctors)
 
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Best meaning ...

Access?

Quality?

Cost-effectiveness?

Patient satisfaction?

Best in terms of what the Frontier Biryani Connoisseur deems to be most important, but I think that health care economists of all political persuasions may strenuously disagree about "best" because that depends on how you define it.

(I think it's the best place to train, best place to be a cancer patient, best place to be a very, very sick child, probably financially best for doctors. All important things. It's not cost effective, it's not great for lifestyle modification, it's not great in terms of paperwork for doctors)

Yep
 
Best meaning ...

Access?

Quality?

Cost-effectiveness?

Patient satisfaction?

Best in terms of what the Frontier Biryani Connoisseur deems to be most important, but I think that health care economists of all political persuasions may strenuously disagree about "best" because that depends on how you define it.

(I think it's the best place to train, best place to be a cancer patient, best place to be a very, very sick child, probably financially best for doctors. All important things. It's not cost effective, it's not great for lifestyle modification, it's not great in terms of paperwork for doctors)

Usually when we measure healthcare, we measure outcomes. The endpoint of the most significant trials is OS, not satisfaction or cost. And all of us here know that. Unfortunately there is this burning desire from some to always try and paint everything about America as fundamentally awful, to always try and ignore the great successes of free markets and capitalism and myopically focus on the shortcomings -- America is this horrible prejudiced antiquated system that needs to be burned to the ground and built anew according to socialist principles because letting people have freedom and letting things play out naturally doesn't produce the warm and fuzzy outcomes, and therefore equality must be forced, and the solution to that is government control in everything. The reality is that our problems, and yes there are certainly problems, are far less in comparison to most of the world and that we have continuously improved since our founding and continue to improve.

The problem right now with the outrageous costs in medicine are cronyism and bureaucratic bloat, as you hint at. And some think that the solution to this is to just put the federal government in charge of it all? Excuse me, but LOL. Since when has the federal government ever simplified something and made it cheaper by intervening? And I think it's hilarious the most vocal here for such policies are also the most vocal about having their $700k incomes cut from residency over-expansion and hypofractionation. Cognitive dissonance much? Gimme a break.
 
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Usually when we measure healthcare, we measure outcomes. The endpoint of the most significant trials is OS, not satisfaction or cost. And all of us here know that. Unfortunately there is this burning desire from some to always try and paint everything about America as fundamentally awful, to always try and ignore the great successes of free markets and capitalism and myopically focus on the shortcomings -- America is this horrible prejudiced antiquated system that needs to be burned to the ground and built anew according to socialist principles because letting people have freedom and letting things play out naturally doesn't produce the warm and fuzzy outcomes, and therefore equality must be forced, and the solution to that is government control in everything. The reality is that our problems, and yes there are certainly problems, are far less in comparison to most of the world and that we have continuously improved since our founding and continue to improve.

The problem right now with the outrageous costs in medicine are cronyism and bureaucratic bloat, as you hint at. And some think that the solution to this is to just put the federal government in charge of it all? Excuse me, but LOL. Since when has the federal government ever simplified something and made it cheaper by intervening? And I think it's hilarious the most vocal here for such policies are also the most vocal about having their $700k incomes cut from residency over-expansion and hypofractionation. Cognitive dissonance much? Gimme a break.

Aren’t you supposedly making 700k also? You guys probably know eachother!
 
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Y do you assume that everyone that disagrees with you on a minor point hates America? You want me to be a liberal snowflake Kenyan that hates America and wants to stop you from using pronouns. That’s not me. I love America. I love it here. I know the best part about this nation is it continually improves. Friendly people, hard working, kind, liberty loving, and a healthy distrust of federal authority. My type of country, and I’d never live anywhere else (having lived in two other countries) and I recommend the US highly. 5 stars on yelp review.

Are you a health outcomes researcher? Many (most?) people would not agree (look at the literature regarding this). Infant mortality is very high here. So is maternal mortality. So are accidental deaths from firearms. Care is costly and we don’t get as much bang for our buck as we should. We are bogged down with paperwork. We regulate, regulate, Regulate. Administrators have too much power.

I think there are market solutions and some non market solutions. I never once said I prefer single payor. You use political terms like “socialized” medicine. We have it here - VA. It pretty much stinks. Single payor / government provider is not ideal (in my opinion). There are many people that mention Medicare for all. I’m not one of them.

Leave the anti politically correct, everyone except me and other conservative people love America and you all hate it diatribes for your redstate.org blog post comment sections.

Usually when we measure healthcare, we measure outcomes. The endpoint of the most significant trials is OS, not satisfaction or cost. And all of us here know that. Unfortunately there is this burning desire from some to always try and paint everything about America as fundamentally awful, to always try and ignore the great successes of free markets and capitalism and myopically focus on the shortcomings -- America is this horrible prejudiced antiquated system that needs to be burned to the ground and built anew according to socialist principles because letting people have freedom and letting things play out naturally doesn't produce the warm and fuzzy outcomes, and therefore equality must be forced, and the solution to that is government control in everything. The reality is that our problems, and yes there are certainly problems, are far less in comparison to most of the world and that we have continuously improved since our founding and continue to improve.

The problem right now with the outrageous costs in medicine are cronyism and bureaucratic bloat, as you hint at. And some think that the solution to this is to just put the federal government in charge of it all? Excuse me, but LOL. Since when has the federal government ever simplified something and made it cheaper by intervening? And I think it's hilarious the most vocal here for such policies are also the most vocal about having their $700k incomes cut from residency over-expansion and hypofractionation. Cognitive dissonance much? Gimme a break.
 
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Y do you assume that everyone that disagrees with you on a minor point hates America? You want me to be a liberal snowflake Kenyan that hates America and wants to stop you from using pronouns. That’s not me. I love America. I love it here. I know the best part about this nation is it continually improves. Friendly people, hard working, kind, liberty loving, and a healthy distrust of federal authority. My type of country, and I’d never live anywhere else (having lived in two other countries) and I recommend the US highly. 5 stars on yelp review.

Are you a health outcomes researcher? Many (most?) people would not agree (look at the literature regarding this). Infant mortality is very high here. So is maternal mortality. So are accidental deaths from firearms. Care is costly and we don’t get as much bang for our buck as we should. We are bogged down with paperwork. We regulate, regulate, Regulate. Administrators have too much power.

I think there are market solutions and some non market solutions. I never once said I prefer single payor. You use political terms like “socialized” medicine. We have it here - VA. It pretty much stinks. Single payor / government provider is not ideal (in my opinion). There are many people that mention Medicare for all. I’m not one of them.

Leave the anti politically correct, everyone except me and other conservative people love America and you all hate it diatribes for your redstate.org blog post comment sections.

I said "some," not "everyone." There are definitely SOME who think this, and they are extremely vocal, and I have a big problem with it! It sounds like we agree on a lot, but I think it is you who is the one making assumptions about me with that last paragraph you came up with! Don't pigeonhole me in with alt-right internet whackjobs because I'm mildly conservative.

Regardless, not going down this rabbithole any farther!
Cheers!
 
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Y do you assume that everyone that disagrees with you on a minor point hates America? You want me to be a liberal snowflake Kenyan that hates America and wants to stop you from using pronouns. That’s not me. I love America. I love it here. I know the best part about this nation is it continually improves. Friendly people, hard working, kind, liberty loving, and a healthy distrust of federal authority. My type of country, and I’d never live anywhere else (having lived in two other countries) and I recommend the US highly. 5 stars on yelp review.

Are you a health outcomes researcher? Many (most?) people would not agree (look at the literature regarding this). Infant mortality is very high here. So is maternal mortality. So are accidental deaths from firearms. Care is costly and we don’t get as much bang for our buck as we should. We are bogged down with paperwork. We regulate, regulate, Regulate. Administrators have too much power.

I think there are market solutions and some non market solutions. I never once said I prefer single payor. You use political terms like “socialized” medicine. We have it here - VA. It pretty much stinks. Single payor / government provider is not ideal (in my opinion). There are many people that mention Medicare for all. I’m not one of them.

Leave the anti politically correct, everyone except me and other conservative people love America and you all hate it diatribes for your redstate.org blog post comment sections.

you ruined everything you said when you sprinkled kenyan. I award you no points. Learn how to use it, like MSG
 
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I said "some," not "everyone." There are definitely SOME who think this, and they are extremely vocal, and I have a big problem with it! It sounds like we agree on a lot, but I think it is you who is the one making assumptions about me with that last paragraph you came up with! Don't pigeonhole me in with alt-right internet whackjobs because I'm mildly conservative.

Regardless, not going down this rabbithole any farther!
Cheers!

you better keep the word mild out of biriyani. Spicy or don’t even order it.
 
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Let's keep it at least tangentially on topic folks. Discussion of what restaurant is KHE's favorite is non-productive and off-topic, with no even potential tangential relation to the thread topic of extended fractionation. One warning, 9 posts deleted. Discussion of food in this thread will lead to additional warnings/deletions.
 
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