Extended time for OCD - unheard of??

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psipsina

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Hey, a good friend of mine bombed the MCAT the first time she took it. She has OCD and spent some ridiculous amount of time obsessing about filling in the bubbles. She could never finish the sections and started feeling rushed and pressured as she realized she was running out of time. She is thinking about giving up on medical school because she can't pass this test in the alloted time. I brought up the idea of applying for extended time. A kid in my review course got extended time for ADD, but I didn't know if OCD could qualify? She is super smart and would be a wonderful physician, I'd hate to see the MCAT take her out of the game. Anyone with any insight?
 
To the best of my knowledge, OCD is covered by the ADA Act of 1990. For more information on what your friend needs to do, refer to this:

http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/about/mcatada.pdf


I hope that answers your question.


I have a question myself though. In the pdf file, it states "scores obtained under nonstandard conditions will be noted as such when those scores are reported to you and your score recipients."

Presumably, this means that medical schools will know that you didn't take your MCAT under standard conditions for whatever reasons. Do you think that medical schools will hold this against somebody, even unconsciously?
 
It seems to me that things like this should really be weed outs for those unable to handle the rigors of being a physician. If she can't handle bubbling in a multiple choice test in a given (predetermined) amount of time, is she also going to spend countless hours perfecting the folds on the sheets covering a patient when that person has just been unloaded from an ambulance, or abort surgery because some clumsy med student tripped over the implements cart and knocked some tools on the floor?
 
But OCD is a very managable disorder with medication and behavioral therapy. To say that she couldn't be a competent doctor because she may have trouble with bubbling in ovals may be an overstatement.

I'm almost confident that the above link will direct your friend what to do if she does decide to take the test again.

I was hoping somebody would address my question.
 
There's an episode of "Scrubs" where Michael J. Fox plays a doctor with severe OCD. It was a very touching episode. The message was that EVERYONE has physical or psychological roadblocks they have to face in medicine; it's all a matter of how you deal with them.

Your friend will have every opportunity to prove herself as a doctor. OCD is treatable and should not get in the way of your friend's aspirations with the right attitude.
 
psipsina said:
Hey, a good friend of mine bombed the MCAT the first time she took it. She has OCD and spent some ridiculous amount of time obsessing about filling in the bubbles. She could never finish the sections and started feeling rushed and pressured as she realized she was running out of time. She is thinking about giving up on medical school because she can't pass this test in the alloted time. I brought up the idea of applying for extended time. A kid in my review course got extended time for ADD, but I didn't know if OCD could qualify? She is super smart and would be a wonderful physician, I'd hate to see the MCAT take her out of the game. Anyone with any insight?

It would seem unfair to give her extra time as her problem is not one with information processing. Since she can read and answer questions at the same rate as a normal person, giving her extra time to bubble may also give her extra time for questions and an undue advantage. In my opinion, this is the crucial difference between her case and that of ADD, where extra time is warranted to correct the disparity in the actual answering of questions.
If it were up to me, I would not allow her special conditions and would recommend that she control her problem through meds/behavioral therapy.
 
SpinEcho13 said:
It seems to me that things like this should really be weed outs for those unable to handle the rigors of being a physician. If she can't handle bubbling in a multiple choice test in a given (predetermined) amount of time, is she also going to spend countless hours perfecting the folds on the sheets covering a patient when that person has just been unloaded from an ambulance, or abort surgery because some clumsy med student tripped over the implements cart and knocked some tools on the floor?
I think you are wrong, not to mention callous, and am surprised at the shallowness of the assumption that the technicalities of taking the MCAT could be a "weedout for those unable to handle the rigors of being a physician." Perhaps my respected fellow poster might benefit from the company of psychiatric patients, who would teach her/him a lot about human potential, and maybe a little humility. William Osler did not take the MCAT, nor did Hippocrates. SHAME....... 👎
Yes, OCD is most definitely treatable and is among those few diseases that can totally wreck your life. I have it, and I know. I also know that it has immeasurably helped me appreciate aspects of the human spirit to overcome adversity. Speak to an OCD sufferer, my friend. You'll become a better doctor.
 
Omar@JHU said:
I think you are wrong, not to mention callous, and am surprised at the shallowness of the assumption that the technicalities of taking the MCAT could be a "weedout for those unable to handle the rigors of being a physician." Perhaps my respected fellow poster might benefit from the company of psychiatric patients, who would teach her/him a lot about human potential, and maybe a little humility. William Osler did not take the MCAT, nor did Hippocrates. SHAME....... 👎
Yes, OCD is most definitely treatable and is among those few diseases that can totally wreck your life. I have it, and I know. I also know that it has immeasurably helped me appreciate aspects of the human spirit to overcome adversity. Speak to an OCD sufferer, my friend. You'll become a better doctor.

Self-rightous people annoy me.
 
How much extra time do the OCD and ADD students get? I dont think an extra 5 mins to bubble in answers would be too unreasonable........any conceivable "extra boost" not warranted be their sickness would probably be offset by the notation on their scores.
 
Omar@JHU said:
I think you are wrong, not to mention callous, and am surprised at the shallowness of the assumption that the technicalities of taking the MCAT could be a "weedout for those unable to handle the rigors of being a physician." Perhaps my respected fellow poster might benefit from the company of psychiatric patients, who would teach her/him a lot about human potential, and maybe a little humility. William Osler did not take the MCAT, nor did Hippocrates. SHAME....... 👎
Yes, OCD is most definitely treatable and is among those few diseases that can totally wreck your life. I have it, and I know. I also know that it has immeasurably helped me appreciate aspects of the human spirit to overcome adversity. Speak to an OCD sufferer, my friend. You'll become a better doctor.

You know what Hippocrates said when he looked at the MCAT?

This is all Greek to me!
 
This will seem rude, but I mean it sincerely.

Is it fair to your future patients to give you extra time on the MCAT, when the inability to think/act quickly would be potentially fatal in an emergency situation at a hospital?

If the disease is so treatable as to not affect your future performance as a doctor, why not get it treated now, so you can prove this via an MCAT administered under standard timing conditions?
 
Omar@JHU said:
I think you are wrong, not to mention callous, and am surprised at the shallowness of the assumption that the technicalities of taking the MCAT could be a "weedout for those unable to handle the rigors of being a physician." Perhaps my respected fellow poster might benefit from the company of psychiatric patients, who would teach her/him a lot about human potential, and maybe a little humility. William Osler did not take the MCAT, nor did Hippocrates. SHAME....... 👎
Yes, OCD is most definitely treatable and is among those few diseases that can totally wreck your life. I have it, and I know. I also know that it has immeasurably helped me appreciate aspects of the human spirit to overcome adversity. Speak to an OCD sufferer, my friend. You'll become a better doctor.
This thread almost shocked me and some of the statements made here were not something I'd expect from premeds. I feel strongly about it, so I've written a lot, but I hope you give it a read.

I completely agree with you Omar. I don't suffer from OCD, but I have lived closely with someone who does. Its amazing how judgemental people who have no knowledge of the subject can be. If you ever studied OCD, you'd know what a high percentage of individuals suffer from either a mild or severe form. And don't all of us obsess about something? Heck, we're premeds, and often obsessive premeds. So would you suggest that a psychological analysis be the next requirement for med school, incase you might "spend countless hours perfecting the folds on the sheets covering a patient when that person has just been unloaded from an ambulance, or abort surgery because some clumsy med student tripped over the implements cart and knocked some tools on the floor?" All of us have our own physical and mental issues and none of us can judge the capability of each other based on that.
If we desire to be good physicians, we cannot make assumptions about a disease and the sufferer. We also cannot claim these assumptions to be a valid basis for discrimination. I agree that severe OCD can manifest itself in any place, but medication and therapy guides sufferers to the right direction. If an OCD sufferer came to you as a patient, would you tell them to shut themself at home and not attempt to build a life and a career because who knows what you'll do?? I hope the answer is no. Anybody with the determination can overpower their problems, even if they are psychological. Did you know Charles Darwin, Charles Dickens and Florence Nightingale were all suffers of OCD? Imagine telling Ms Nightingale to go on home because her OCD might flare up? I mean, if in the 19th century (with presumably no proper treatment), she was able to pioneer modern nursing, who's to say what OCD sufferers can and cannot achieve? What if someone had made a similar judgement about Darwin--that his theory of natural selection was a whole lot of nothing because of his OCD--where would we all be now?

I hope you realize how unfair such an atmosphere would be for anyone suffering from any sort of mental illness (which is treatable), and what a loss it can potentially be to our society. Its more unfair not to give an individual with a problem that, through no fault of theirs, slows down their response time, extra time for an exam that will prove their intelligence and allow them to achieve their goals and become the wonderful physicians/surgeons/nurses/psychiatrists they can become. We're all so caught up in the competitiveness of med school, that we see everything as a threat and lunge towards the negative immediately, and are ready to make such callous statements because god forbid, one more person gets ahead of us in the game.

Educate yourself before you decide whats fair and not fair. Understand the position and its implications before you decide to condemn an individual based on their mental status. Right now, it doesn't matter what your opinion is for students taking the MCAT, but in a few years when you're all in a position where you hold power over an individuals life, literally, I hope you will stop yourself before you state your personal, negative opinions, and aim to provide a unbiased, educated advice.

Psipsina, I'm sure the AAMC (as the ADA does) recognizes OCD sufferers to be eligible for special arrangements. They probably require a letter from a psychiatrist evaluating the patient and their needs, and the specific problem. Often the university can also add on to it if she has discussed the matter with the school. I hope it works out well for her and she does very well!

Omar, I hope you succeed in your goals. I'm sure you will be an excellent doctor.

NRAI2001, its spelled "self-righteous." And my day will be made if I'm one of the lucky few that annoys you.

Good luck everyone.
 
Binary said:
This will seem rude, but I mean it sincerely.

Is it fair to your future patients to give you extra time on the MCAT, when the inability to think/act quickly would be potentially fatal in an emergency situation at a hospital?

If the disease is so treatable as to not affect your future performance as a doctor, why not get it treated now, so you can prove this via an MCAT administered under standard timing conditions?
Again, learn more. OCD cannot be fully treatable. Its not a cancer you can remove. But with medication, you can keep it in control, and it might never manifest itself in your life. Its like asthma. You keep the spray or take the pill. We can't discriminate agaisnt asthma sufferers, can we, because they might go into attack at any time? In addition, what triggers OCD can vary. With the right medication, however, it will be in control. But you can't just get it treated and move on.

Also, just to let you know, I know of several doctors, dentists, etc, who have OCD, are respected in their field and have never jeopardized the lives of their patients. You probably have a doctor with OCD, but don't know about it and will never know.
 
NRAI2001 said:
How much extra time do the OCD and ADD students get? I dont think an extra 5 mins to bubble in answers would be too unreasonable........any conceivable "extra boost" not warranted be their sickness would probably be offset by the notation on their scores.
MCAT reviews this on a case by case basis. Some people have unlimited time taking a test while other get time and a half.
ADeadLois said:
The message was that EVERYONE has physical or psychological roadblocks they have to face in medicine; it's all a matter of how you deal with them.
Roadblocks such as blindness cannot be overcome even in a situation where one aspires to be a doctor.
zach1201 said:
I have a question myself though. In the pdf file, it states "scores obtained under nonstandard conditions will be noted as such when those scores are reported to you and your score recipients."
Presumably, this means that medical schools will know that you didn't take your MCAT under standard conditions for whatever reasons. Do you think that medical schools will hold this against somebody, even unconsciously?
My question has yet to be answered.

As to the original post, I'll tell you once again...OCD is covered under the 1990 American Disabilities Act and with proper documentation, your friend can get the accomodations they need.
 
zach1201 said:
MCAT reviews this on a case by case basis. Some people have unlimited time taking a test while other get time and a half.

Roadblocks such as blindness cannot be overcome even in a situation where one aspires to be a doctor.

My question has yet to be answered.

As to the original post, I'll tell you once again...OCD is covered under the 1990 American Disabilities Act and with proper documentation, your friend can get the accomodations they need.
I think medical schools cannot hold that against you, ethically, if the conditions and the needs for them have been described. Its valid to demand an explanation if you feel there was any prejudice involved. For example if you have a great MCAT score and your app looks great and you didn't get called in for an interview, I'd look into it. Once you're in the interview, though, you can prove yourself. Another thing is to call schools and get in touch with them beforehand, meet with them, and let them know who you are so they realize that the conditions you needed only applied to taking this test. Thats my 0.02cents.
 
justmoi said:
This thread almost shocked me and some of the statements made here were not something I'd expect from premeds. I feel strongly about it, so I've written a lot, but I hope you give it a read.

I completely agree with you Omar. I don't suffer from OCD, but I have lived closely with someone who does. Its amazing how judgemental people who have no knowledge of the subject can be. If you ever studied OCD, you'd know what a high percentage of individuals suffer from either a mild or severe form. And don't all of us obsess about something? Heck, we're premeds, and often obsessive premeds. So would you suggest that a psychological analysis be the next requirement for med school, incase you might "spend countless hours perfecting the folds on the sheets covering a patient when that person has just been unloaded from an ambulance, or abort surgery because some clumsy med student tripped over the implements cart and knocked some tools on the floor?" All of us have our own physical and mental issues and none of us can judge the capability of each other based on that.
If we desire to be good physicians, we cannot make assumptions about a disease and the sufferer. We also cannot claim these assumptions to be a valid basis for discrimination. I agree that severe OCD can manifest itself in any place, but medication and therapy guides sufferers to the right direction. If an OCD sufferer came to you as a patient, would you tell them to shut themself at home and not attempt to build a life and a career because who knows what you'll do?? I hope the answer is no. Anybody with the determination can overpower their problems, even if they are psychological. Did you know Charles Darwin, Charles Dickens and Florence Nightingale were all suffers of OCD? Imagine telling Ms Nightingale to go on home because her OCD might flare up? I mean, if in the 19th century (with presumably no proper treatment), she was able to pioneer modern nursing, who's to say what OCD sufferers can and cannot achieve? What if someone had made a similar judgement about Darwin--that his theory of natural selection was a whole lot of nothing because of his OCD--where would we all be now?

I hope you realize how unfair such an atmosphere would be for anyone suffering from any sort of mental illness (which is treatable), and what a loss it can potentially be to our society. Its more unfair not to give an individual with a problem that, through no fault of theirs, slows down their response time, extra time for an exam that will prove their intelligence and allow them to achieve their goals and become the wonderful physicians/surgeons/nurses/psychiatrists they can become. We're all so caught up in the competitiveness of med school, that we see everything as a threat and lunge towards the negative immediately, and are ready to make such callous statements because god forbid, one more person gets ahead of us in the game.

Educate yourself before you decide whats fair and not fair. Understand the position and its implications before you decide to condemn an individual based on their mental status. Right now, it doesn't matter what your opinion is for students taking the MCAT, but in a few years when you're all in a position where you hold power over an individuals life, literally, I hope you will stop yourself before you state your personal, negative opinions, and aim to provide a unbiased, educated advice.

Psipsina, I'm sure the AAMC (as the ADA does) recognizes OCD sufferers to be eligible for special arrangements. They probably require a letter from a psychiatrist evaluating the patient and their needs, and the specific problem. Often the university can also add on to it if she has discussed the matter with the school. I hope it works out well for her and she does very well!

Omar, I hope you succeed in your goals. I'm sure you will be an excellent doctor.

NRAI2001, its spelled "self-righteous." And my day will be made if I'm one of the lucky few that annoys you.

Good luck everyone.

Honestly i dont know why people make such stupid comments "I m sure you ll make an excellent doctor." Do you know omar? Have you worked with him? Where you his anatomy partner? Physio professor? Or are you just stupid kid who likes to make him/herself feel smarter by making cliche remarks and spelling corrections on a forum about mcat issues. Studying for the mcat doesnt mean you know jack about being a physician. Hit the books and hit me up in about 6 years when you know what you re talking about.
 
justmoi said:
Again, learn more. OCD cannot be fully treatable. Its not a cancer you can remove. But with medication, you can keep it in control, and it might never manifest itself in your life. Its like asthma. You keep the spray or take the pill. We can't discriminate agaisnt asthma sufferers, can we, because they might go into attack at any time? In addition, what triggers OCD can vary. With the right medication, however, it will be in control. But you can't just get it treated and move on.

Also, just to let you know, I know of several doctors, dentists, etc, who have OCD, are respected in their field and have never jeopardized the lives of their patients. You probably have a doctor with OCD, but don't know about it and will never know.

Awesome. I'm very happy for the person with the condition. But if this condition is so treatable that it will not affect their critical decision-making ability as a physician, why would it be necessary to give them more MCAT test-taking time?
 
My friend has OCD and had the same bubbling problem as your friend. Instead of bubbling in the scantron he was allowed to just circle his answers on the actual test.
See if the MCAT people will let yoru friend do that.
To those of you who deal with pyschiatric problems, don't let intollerant people get to you. I use to think the same way as them until I met my friend.
 
I don't mean to be judgemental, but I have to ask.

Why does anyone need extra time? I could understand if they are in a wheelchair and need access to rooms that can accommodate their needs, or if they are deaf they would need someone to sign the verbal instructions or provide the materials written (all of them are if I remember correctly). I could understand if the person is interested in just doing medical research and needs a brail or large-type MCAT. But if someone is interested in being a regular physician, interacting with patients, why the extra time? Do you think you will get extra time in medical school or on the USMLE/board exams? What about while you are working with your patients, especially in emergency situations? I just need to ask that question, and it's an honest question to ask.

From what I'm told by various premed advisors and MCAT instructors, part of the MCAT is simply endurance and psychological. Testing whether or not you are willing to go through a lot of crap and hell to go through medical school, which will be intense and feel like hell to those who are not prepared for the amount of work ahead.

I'm an older person, about 15 years older than most pre-meds. I find it harder to memorize material and to pickup new concepts compared to my younger counterparts (or even myself when I was that age), but that means I just have to put in the extra time and effort to learn to get the A on the exam as they do. Older folks don't get extra time, and they tend to get lower scores than their younger counterparts.
 
everyone shut up!!! 😀 what does it matter if a person with documented OCD gets extra time or not? The fact that that he or she gets a score report with a * on it on nonstandard conditions will certainly catch the eye of medical schools anyway, so i doubt that this person will be getting more of an advantage anyway. If having extra time means being able to finish the test because of medical conditions, so be it. The fact that society already looks down on people with such a disorder (they have a tv show that has a cop whos OCD thats meant to be a comedy, but you will never see a comedy with someone who has downs syndrome), makes it no more easier if the people who are to be his or her future colleagues in the medical world, charged with the responsibility of being objective, are exactly the same as everyone else out there - judgmental. And mind you, individuals who do make it to the level of being a surgeon, when "tools are dropped on the ground", have made it there for a reason- they have demonstrated that they can be a doctor, and be a damn good one. If her OCD had prevented her from being unable to perform such basic duties, she wouldnt make it far enough in the medical field where patient's lives are on the line. It also says that she never took the responbility to control her illness. Seeing that this individual recently discovered it was her OCD that prevented her from finishing the MCATs, she never had ample time to treat her condition, and thus, extra time should be warranted. Just my two cents. :luck:
 
NRAI2001 said:
Honestly i dont know why people make such stupid comments "I m sure you ll make an excellent doctor." Do you know omar? Have you worked with him? Where you his anatomy partner? Physio professor? Or are you just stupid kid who likes to make him/herself feel smarter by making cliche remarks and spelling corrections on a forum about mcat issues. Studying for the mcat doesnt mean you know jack about being a physician. Hit the books and hit me up in about 6 years when you know what you re talking about.
well, looks like you made my day then, since I clearly got to you.
It also looks like you read nothing else of what I said, or tried to see my point at all. I don't need to prove anything to you, but often, believe it or not, there are people in the world open to change who will attempt to see someone else's point of view. Intolerance, all kinds, stems from the the refusal to try to learn and understand about something new. Don't worry about me not knowing jack, because even when I'm a physician I won't treat myself to be the sole expert to everyone's problems, I'll still be open to learning and understanding. Can you say that for yourself?
 
braluk said:
everyone shut up!!! 😀 what does it matter if a person with documented OCD gets extra time or not? The fact that that he or she gets a score report with a * on it on nonstandard conditions will certainly catch the eye of medical schools anyway, so i doubt that this person will be getting more of an advantage anyway. If having extra time means being able to finish the test because of medical conditions, so be it. The fact that society already looks down on people with such a disorder (they have a tv show that has a cop whos OCD thats meant to be a comedy, but you will never see a comedy with someone who has downs syndrome), makes it no more easier if the people who are to be his or her future colleagues in the medical world, charged with the responsibility of being objective, are exactly the same as everyone else out there - judgmental. And mind you, individuals who do make it to the level of being a surgeon, when "tools are dropped on the ground", have made it there for a reason- they have demonstrated that they can be a doctor, and be a damn good one. If her OCD had prevented her from being unable to perform such basic duties, she wouldnt make it far enough in the medical field where patient's lives are on the line. It also says that she never took the responbility to control her illness. Seeing that this individual recently discovered it was her OCD that prevented her from finishing the MCATs, she never had ample time to treat her condition, and thus, extra time should be warranted. Just my two cents. :luck:
exactly. if its not in control or the patient refuses to keep it in control, a few extra minutes on the MCAT won't change the fact that he/she will never reach the end. The MCAT doesn't mean we'll all be doctors. It says that we can now begin the next step to see IF we'll be doctors.
 
Why do people with ADD get extra time for tests? I would think that if they are deficient at paying attention, then having extra time in which they need to stay focused would not be helpful in the least.

I'm not being rude; I'm sincerely unsure about this and would like to know the answer. No snide remarks, please.
 
well ADD doesnt mean that you cant stay focused, it means that it is more difficult to focus. A regular MCAT taker would have to stay focused 100% of the time. Someone with ADD may, for example, only be focused half of the time. Hence, if you give them extra time, eventually the test will be completed.

so i guess to make a simple comparison, everyone one of us has "ADD" or typical student procrastination, be it through AIM, television, internet, whatever. We have a 10 page essay due tommorrow. A person without "college ADD" would have finished that essay already, because those distractions are not bothersome to him or her. For people with "college ADD", that extra time, some right up to the time it is due, and some even handing it in late is what I guess I would make a comparison to extra time on the MCAT.
 
justmoi said:
well, looks like you made my day then, since I clearly got to you.
It also looks like you read nothing else of what I said, or tried to see my point at all. I don't need to prove anything to you, but often, believe it or not, there are people in the world open to change who will attempt to see someone else's point of view. Intolerance, all kinds, stems from the the refusal to try to learn and understand about something new. Don't worry about me not knowing jack, because even when I'm a physician I won't treat myself to be the sole expert to everyone's problems, I'll still be open to learning and understanding. Can you say that for yourself?


I am always open to learning, trying new things, and meeting new people but i wont date you, so give it up moi.
 
justmoi said:
I completely agree with you Omar. I don't suffer from OCD, but I have lived closely with someone who does. Its amazing how judgemental people who have no knowledge of the subject can be. If you ever studied OCD, you'd know what a high percentage of individuals suffer from either a mild or severe form. And don't all of us obsess about something? Heck, we're premeds, and often obsessive premeds. So would you suggest that a psychological analysis be the next requirement for med school, incase you might "spend countless hours perfecting the folds on the sheets covering a patient when that person has just been unloaded from an ambulance, or abort surgery because some clumsy med student tripped over the implements cart and knocked some tools on the floor?" All of us have our own physical and mental issues and none of us can judge the capability of each other based on that.

Indeed, this is exactly a point I would make, but to counter your stance. Everyone has their faults, problems, issues that they deal with (or are unable to deal with). And yet, we all take the MCAT under normal timing conditions. Why the special privileges?

The real problem is that things like ADD and OCD are not really defined by clear diagnoses. Sure, there are tests and methods of "diagnosing" them, but their cutoff is completely arbitrary. In reality, there is quite a spectrum of how well each individual is able to focus on a task at hand. I might (along with many others) have a minor case of ADD--I know that I fidget alot, am easily distracted by sounds, and regularly catch myself looking around rooms when I should be performing a specific task. So maybe I deserve 1.1 times normal time on the MCAT. I am quite sure that given extra time, I could get a higher score. In fact, I think we all can. But we don't get more time, only people who are "diagnosed" with this disorder reap the benefits of more time. Someone will retort, "But they're NOT reaping benefits! They are being given their due--what takes you(being me) 1 hour might take them 1.5, and without extra time, they can't show off their potential!" Indeed. And given extra time, I'll show you my true potential too.

Some of you say you know physicians who are OCD or ADD--I do too. They all share something in common--they took the MCAT, and apparently did well enough (despite their "disorder") to get into medical school. Perhaps they did the unthinkable--studied harder, practiced often and overcame their individual flaws, without depending on extra time crutches. The very concept of extra time didn't even exist in their day; it's a construct of our "PC" society, where everyone deserves equal rights *for certain things* You don't see basketball players who are short get extra points for scoring, because they would have gotten those baskets if they were taller. You don't see people taking eye tests get the board moved closer to them to make up for their poor eyesight, so they can become pilots. Someone will respond, "But these are all physical issues; if you aren't tall enough to compete in basketball, you choose a different path." Intellectual talent, and the ability to think quickly is as much a physical part of us as the length of our legs, and quality of our eyesight.

This is harsh, I know. I'm really not an ass, but from a philosophical (and logical) standpoint, this is what it comes down to (in my opinion). You're the medical school admission director, and you have one spot left in your class. Who is more qualified to be a physician, given all else things being equal: student A who worked their ass off and nailed a 34 on the MCATs under normal time constraints, or student B who achieved the same score but required time and a half? It's a no brainer for me. In fact, I think I would choose someone who achieved a 32, 31, or perhaps even a 30 on the MCAT, over student B. Ask the question again, not from the standpoint of an admissions officer, but from the perspective of a patient. Sure, I wouldn't be truly worried about the OCD dermatologist, or ENT (who doesnt perform procedures on me). But let me tell you, show me a person who has a severe case of OCD such that they cannot focus on the matter at hand, and I will show you a person who I avoid as a cardiologist, gastroenterologist, anesthesiologist--and about 95% of the other specialties. Someone will say, "you probably have had an OCD physician, and didn't know it." Maybe. And if so, I bet their OCD isn't bad enough to severely restrict their success on the MCAT.
 
justmoi said:
This thread almost shocked me and some of the statements made here were not something I'd expect from premeds. I feel strongly about it, so I've written a lot, but I hope you give it a read.

I completely agree with you Omar. I don't suffer from OCD, but I have lived closely with someone who does. Its amazing how judgemental people who have no knowledge of the subject can be. If you ever studied OCD, you'd know what a high percentage of individuals suffer from either a mild or severe form. And don't all of us obsess about something? Heck, we're premeds, and often obsessive premeds. So would you suggest that a psychological analysis be the next requirement for med school, incase you might "spend countless hours perfecting the folds on the sheets covering a patient when that person has just been unloaded from an ambulance, or abort surgery because some clumsy med student tripped over the implements cart and knocked some tools on the floor?" All of us have our own physical and mental issues and none of us can judge the capability of each other based on that.
If we desire to be good physicians, we cannot make assumptions about a disease and the sufferer. We also cannot claim these assumptions to be a valid basis for discrimination. I agree that severe OCD can manifest itself in any place, but medication and therapy guides sufferers to the right direction. If an OCD sufferer came to you as a patient, would you tell them to shut themself at home and not attempt to build a life and a career because who knows what you'll do?? I hope the answer is no. Anybody with the determination can overpower their problems, even if they are psychological. Did you know Charles Darwin, Charles Dickens and Florence Nightingale were all suffers of OCD? Imagine telling Ms Nightingale to go on home because her OCD might flare up? I mean, if in the 19th century (with presumably no proper treatment), she was able to pioneer modern nursing, who's to say what OCD sufferers can and cannot achieve? What if someone had made a similar judgement about Darwin--that his theory of natural selection was a whole lot of nothing because of his OCD--where would we all be now?

I hope you realize how unfair such an atmosphere would be for anyone suffering from any sort of mental illness (which is treatable), and what a loss it can potentially be to our society. Its more unfair not to give an individual with a problem that, through no fault of theirs, slows down their response time, extra time for an exam that will prove their intelligence and allow them to achieve their goals and become the wonderful physicians/surgeons/nurses/psychiatrists they can become. We're all so caught up in the competitiveness of med school, that we see everything as a threat and lunge towards the negative immediately, and are ready to make such callous statements because god forbid, one more person gets ahead of us in the game.

Educate yourself before you decide whats fair and not fair. Understand the position and its implications before you decide to condemn an individual based on their mental status. Right now, it doesn't matter what your opinion is for students taking the MCAT, but in a few years when you're all in a position where you hold power over an individuals life, literally, I hope you will stop yourself before you state your personal, negative opinions, and aim to provide a unbiased, educated advice.

Psipsina, I'm sure the AAMC (as the ADA does) recognizes OCD sufferers to be eligible for special arrangements. They probably require a letter from a psychiatrist evaluating the patient and their needs, and the specific problem. Often the university can also add on to it if she has discussed the matter with the school. I hope it works out well for her and she does very well!

Omar, I hope you succeed in your goals. I'm sure you will be an excellent doctor.

NRAI2001, its spelled "self-righteous." And my day will be made if I'm one of the lucky few that annoys you.

Good luck everyone.

Amen...Those of us who took the April MCAT how many times have you visted the Thx page???
 
vector07 said:
Indeed, this is exactly a point I would make, but to counter your stance. Everyone has their faults, problems, issues that they deal with (or are unable to deal with). And yet, we all take the MCAT under normal timing conditions. Why the special privileges?

The real problem is that things like ADD and OCD are not really defined by clear diagnoses. Sure, there are tests and methods of "diagnosing" them, but their cutoff is completely arbitrary. In reality, there is quite a spectrum of how well each individual is able to focus on a task at hand. I might (along with many others) have a minor case of ADD--I know that I fidget alot, am easily distracted by sounds, and regularly catch myself looking around rooms when I should be performing a specific task. So maybe I deserve 1.1 times normal time on the MCAT. I am quite sure that given extra time, I could get a higher score. In fact, I think we all can. But we don't get more time, only people who are "diagnosed" with this disorder reap the benefits of more time. Someone will retort, "But they're NOT reaping benefits! They are being given their due--what takes you(being me) 1 hour might take them 1.5, and without extra time, they can't show off their potential!" Indeed. And given extra time, I'll show you my true potential too.

Some of you say you know physicians who are OCD or ADD--I do too. They all share something in common--they took the MCAT, and apparently did well enough (despite their "disorder") to get into medical school. Perhaps they did the unthinkable--studied harder, practiced often and overcame their individual flaws, without depending on extra time crutches. The very concept of extra time didn't even exist in their day; it's a construct of our "PC" society, where everyone deserves equal rights *for certain things* You don't see basketball players who are short get extra points for scoring, because they would have gotten those baskets if they were taller. You don't see people taking eye tests get the board moved closer to them to make up for their poor eyesight, so they can become pilots. Someone will respond, "But these are all physical issues; if you aren't tall enough to compete in basketball, you choose a different path." Intellectual talent, and the ability to think quickly is as much a physical part of us as the length of our legs, and quality of our eyesight.

This is harsh, I know. I'm really not an ass, but from a philosophical (and logical) standpoint, this is what it comes down to (in my opinion). You're the medical school admission director, and you have one spot left in your class. Who is more qualified to be a physician, given all else things being equal: student A who worked their ass off and nailed a 34 on the MCATs under normal time constraints, or student B who achieved the same score but required time and a half? It's a no brainer for me. In fact, I think I would choose someone who achieved a 32, 31, or perhaps even a 30 on the MCAT, over student B. Ask the question again, not from the standpoint of an admissions officer, but from the perspective of a patient. Sure, I wouldn't be truly worried about the OCD dermatologist, or ENT (who doesnt perform procedures on me). But let me tell you, show me a person who has a severe case of OCD such that they cannot focus on the matter at hand, and I will show you a person who I avoid as a cardiologist, gastroenterologist, anesthesiologist--and about 95% of the other specialties. Someone will say, "you probably have had an OCD physician, and didn't know it." Maybe. And if so, I bet their OCD isn't bad enough to severely restrict their success on the MCAT.
I respect what you say, and your reasons are perfectly valid and understandable, if you look at something from the point of the adcom committees or even the future patients. You make a valid argument, and its intelligent and well thought. My issue was with individuals, simple students who have not learnt about OCD or bothered to even understand the situation properly and have no experience with it, making rude and judgemental remarks regarding their capability. We all turn to our peers for encouragement or support, especially us premed SDNers, and I think its terribly callous of any of us who have no experience on the subject to claim thats its a "good way to weed out OCDs" or that OCD sufferers are being self righteous in explaining that they can be capable with proper treatment. Imagine a student who can be a great physician and who doesn't need extra time but is just concerned, "can i make it"? We all have that concern, but when comments attacking the capabilities of that particular group arise, even an individual with complete control over his desease will begin hesitating. That is the issue that bothered me. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but before slamming it against others, it would be better for all to educate themselves and make a valid argument, like you have done. Even if we cannot empathize, we should make an attempt to see the other point of view, and be open to changing our mind or opinions. We're going to need that when we have that OCD patient who wants assurance that he/she need not lock themselves up in a room but try to reach their maximum potential.
 
justmoi said:
I respect what you say, and your reasons are perfectly valid and understandable, if you look at something from the point of the adcom committees or even the future patients. You make a valid argument, and its intelligent and well thought. My issue was with individuals, simple students who have not learnt about OCD or bothered to even understand the situation properly and have no experience with it, making rude and judgemental remarks regarding their capability. We all turn to our peers for encouragement or support, especially us premed SDNers, and I think its terribly callous of any of us who have no experience on the subject to claim thats its a "good way to weed out OCDs" or that OCD sufferers are being self righteous in explaining that they can be capable with proper treatment. Imagine a student who can be a great physician and who doesn't need extra time but is just concerned, "can i make it"? We all have that concern, but when comments attacking the capabilities of that particular group arise, even an individual with complete control over his desease will begin hesitating. That is the issue that bothered me. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but before slamming it against others, it would be better for all to educate themselves and make a valid argument, like you have done. Even if we cannot empathize, we should make an attempt to see the other point of view, and be open to changing our mind or opinions. We're going to need that when we have that OCD patient who wants assurance that he/she need not lock themselves up in a room but try to reach their maximum potential.

I understand, and respect that. I have to admit, I was expecting a fiery retort from you 😛

You also inspired me to add my own favorite Rand quote to my sig. \/ Words to live by...
 
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