"Extra year" of residency?

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Enkidu

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So, what I've understood is that pathology used to require a fifth year of residency in order to become board certified, but it was eliminated. Now, it seems that everyone is doing multiple fellowships and doubting their ability to sign out cases right after residency.

Shouldn't that extra year have been kept, then?

Is a surgical pathology fellowship essentially the same as the old fifth year of pathology?

On a related note, in a combined AP/CP residency, apparently two full years are devoted to clinical pathology, but they're allegedly really easy rotations where residents go home early and read books or whatever. Couldn't this be streamlined a little to shorten the training?
 
I agree the fifth year should have been kept for multiple reasons.
Most people were doing a fellowship anyway for that fifth year not a medicine year.

Now that the fifth year has been cut it has caused multiple "unintended" consequences, at least in my mind. Most people are still doing a fellowship partly because of the job market and partly because of confidence.<O😛First: many surgical pathology fellowships at smaller less competitive programs shut down because of lack of necessity (fifth year). This caused all the fellowships that remain to become more competitive.<O😛Second: when they cut it to 4 years they didn't cut the positions by a fifth so that one year we had 2 full classes worth of pathologists graduating. And since then a fifth more pathologists graduate every year, I believe that this has played a major role in the currently difficult Job market.
<O😛My point isn't to make this thread about the job market we have plenty of that already.... but I think the people who decide to cut the year of pathology made a big mistake.<O😛></O😛>
 
Well, lots of people do fellowships but a lot of them are accredited fellowships, which means they don't count towards residency. So if you wanted to do dermpath that would not count as a fifth year. Or cytopath.
 
I am not a really old fart but I will give some background to the 5th year thing that lots of people seem to not understand. I come to this with an approx 30 year prospective. I graduated med school ( U of I ) in 1977. Navy type and I HAD to do a clinical internship with a couple years of what amounted to general practice prior to beginning the residency of my choice. I had my eye on pathology for a number of years particularly after a 45 day active duty stint at Bethesda late in my junior year. It was great.
We had Ackerman( when he was young) , Sharon Weiss ( who was super), the folks from across the street at NIH and it was all a blast. Did my clinical duty and did my residency 81-85 and an AFIP fellowship 85-86. All during this time there was talk about the new mandatory 5th year. The concern was that we ( the pathology educational system) were turning out a bunch of high-class morphologists who had no clinical background whatsoever ( the crap in med school does not count) and they wanted to require a year of MEANINGFUL clinical medicine experience, primarily so a pathologist had some empathy and understanding where he/she fit into the big picture as a CONSULTANT to CLINICIANS. They wanted you to have to sit on the phone with someone in the pathology department looking for some answers while YOUR clinical patient was in YOUR office in tears worried about her breast CA or lack thereof.

Well, it went thru but got bastardized thru lack of balls on the part of the ABP and the lack of interest of aspiring pathologists to really give a s*** about the REAL aims of the 5th year. So---out the window the "5th" year went and as I see the masses come by year after year, we still have a lot of the same problems. I could list several other problems such as big problems with "communication" skills ( euphamism ). But the ABP has shown that they will cut-and-run when there is any push against some reasonable goals.

Sorry for the long, and somewhat bitter post.
 
Mikesheree,
That's interesting, I thought it was just another year of pathology. So do you think that an internship should be required for pathologists still? It seems like a pretty big commitment to just develop empathy, but maybe it is useful.

I suppose I selfishly hope that I never have to do that. It's not really my interest to be running around on the wards while I nervously wait with my patients for the pathologist to diagnose them.
 
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Mikesheree,
That's interesting, I thought it was just another year of pathology. So do you think that an internship should be required for pathologists still? It seems like a pretty big commitment to just develop empathy, but maybe it is useful.

I suppose I selfishly hope that I never have to do that. It's not really my interest to be running around on the wards while I nervously wait with my patients for the pathologist to diagnose them.

It is/was a lot more than empathy. You have to have been there/done that to really understand it. This has been touched upon by many threads but it has made me a better pathologist, and in my PERSONAL position, when I started as a solo path ( but associate in a large group) in a community hospital with a surgical internship and a couple years of GP it literally allowed me to keep my position and now I am one of about 7 senior active staff members with over 20 years on the active staff. Prior to me, the old guard( old surgeons, gp/internists, peds and ob-gyns) who ran the medical staff almost chewed-up and discarded any candidates our group sent to try to staff the hospital. At my 1st medical staff meeting one of the "big honchos" said it "was a breath of fresh air" to have a pathologist who had a clinical background.
 
Mikesheree,
That's interesting, I thought it was just another year of pathology. So do you think that an internship should be required for pathologists still? It seems like a pretty big commitment to just develop empathy, but maybe it is useful.

I suppose I selfishly hope that I never have to do that. It's not really my interest to be running around on the wards while I nervously wait with my patients for the pathologist to diagnose them.

The extra year didn't have to be the 5th year. Doing a general intern year was to be the 5th year. (Like Radiology for example).. 1 year general internship and then 4 years AP/CP for 5 years. You didn't act like a pathologist on the wards, you were to act like an intern.

But as mikesheree said, the teeth were never put into it.. so in the end, officially. anything counted as the 5th year. But then, most people just treated it as an unofficial fellowship.. If I remember correctly, you could generally do anything (intern year, pre sophomore fellowship, more pathology, or even a non boarded fellowship), but different programs had different rules.
 
Well, pathology is a little odd in that it doesn't require any internship. I kind of wonder though, if requiring pathologists to spend a year as an intern would be the most effective way for them to develop better communication skills with the clinicians.

It kind of seems like that intern year would be a little bit more like hazing than real professional development for a pathologist. I wonder if that's how radiologists view their mandatory internship, as a form of hazing.

In any case, I was thinking that a 5th year of pathology in the pathology residency would be the way to go, given some comments in this forum about having not being ready to sign out after residency and doing multiple fellowships.
 
I did an intern year because I couldn't decide on a specialty in medical school. It has been more helpful to me in my training than I expected (more than just the experience, it helped me get my current residency/fellowship), and I'm sure it will continue to be of benefit. It was tough to endure at times, though, knowing that I would ultimately be doing pathology.

I wonder how many med students interested in pathology might choose not to go into the field if an intern year was required?
 
I did an intern year because I couldn't decide on a specialty in medical school. It has been more helpful to me in my training than I expected (more than just the experience, it helped me get my current residency/fellowship), and I'm sure it will continue to be of benefit. It was tough to endure at times, though, knowing that I would ultimately be doing pathology.

I wonder how many med students interested in pathology might choose not to go into the field if an intern year was required?

Do you think it has made you a better pathologist?

As for people bailing on pathology if it had an internship year... I doubt it. After all, every other specialty has an internship year too. I don't think that the lack of an internship has any effect on medical students going into pathology.

It seems like the intent of the clinical rotations in medical school was to provide students with exactly the perspective that this pathology internship was supposed to give.

We don't make IM guys do surgical internships so that they can feel for the surgeons, or surgeons do a year of pathology so that they can relate to the pathologists, so... I'm a skeptical of pathologists doing a year of medicine.

Relating to the other specialities that you work with seems like a function of... working with those specialties, doesn't it?
 
Do you think it has made you a better pathologist?

As for people bailing on pathology if it had an internship year... I doubt it. After all, every other specialty has an internship year too. I don't think that the lack of an internship has any effect on medical students going into pathology.

It seems like the intent of the clinical rotations in medical school was to provide students with exactly the perspective that this pathology internship was supposed to give.

We don't make IM guys do surgical internships so that they can feel for the surgeons, or surgeons do a year of pathology so that they can relate to the pathologists, so... I'm a skeptical of pathologists doing a year of medicine.

Relating to the other specialities that you work with seems like a function of... working with those specialties, doesn't it?

many years ago, most all the big academic midwest and east coast surgery programs made surgeons do 6 months to a year of pathology. this was "Halstedian" surgical training.
 
Do you think it has made you a better pathologist?

Absolutely! I know it has made me a better pathologist. I'm not so sure that I gained better "communication" skills so much as I built a better foundation in medicine. I've said this before, but I think that way too many medical students give in to the urge to cram their 4th year with every opportunity to spend time in their "chosen" specialty at the expense of rotations like derm, cardiology, rheumatology, surgery, medicine...etc. Things that they'll never again have the opportunity to learn. I understand the desire to want to dive into your specialty once you've chosen it, but just like we see in pathology, 4 years is a short time to learn the material and taking 4 or 5 months away from that to learn something that you'll learn in residency is not what I would recommend. ....tangent.....sorry.

Back to topic:

We don't make IM guys do surgical internships so that they can feel for the surgeons, or surgeons do a year of pathology so that they can relate to the pathologists, so... I'm a skeptical of pathologists doing a year of medicine.

The distinction, here, is that no other specialty is considered to be "the doctor's doctor." I do agree with you that I'm not sure that an intern year would teach a budding pathologist how to give the surgeon everything he wants/needs the way he wants it....but it would certainly help him/her in other ways. That being said, there are plenty of fantastic pathologists who have not had the intern year and do very well "communicating." 😀

Ultimately, I could go either way on requiring an intern year.
 
many years ago, most all the big academic midwest and east coast surgery programs made surgeons do 6 months to a year of pathology. this was "Halstedian" surgical training.

When I applied to Pathology, I asked most programs if they would allow me to do a 1 year internship/transitional year prior to beginning my training. They all said no. If I really wanted to do it, I would have had to go through the match twice in successive years. The main reason is likely that the program would have to pay for a year of my training out of their own pocket. Doing a clinical year has gone from "mandatory" to "impossible."
 
I think the term "doctor's doctor" used to be validly applied to pathologists, in the days when people were doctors first and became pathologists second. Many pathologists these days don't seem to carry that aura, as it were, nor really seem intent on developing it.

It's quite interesting to hear the perspective on the 5th year. When I was looking to go into pathology I heard about the number of years, and started looking at websites for programs, some of which alluded to an intern year or giving limited credit for clinical experience, etc., and my impression was they wanted you to have post-med-school clinical experience. The closer I got to actually starting pathology, however, the more people made it sound like that was an antiquated notion and I had been sorely mistaken in my interpretation; the 5th year was a credentialing year at the end, not the beginning, that you had to do but could do anything with it -- focus on one or two subspecialty areas, do research, etc. Dropping the credentialing year requirement supposedly didn't change much, since "most" people would do a fellowship anyway. Personally, I think a bigger problem is the lack of graduated responsibility to the level of independence during residency, which has its own history and issues.

Personally I did do an intern year, in Australia. It was great, not just because of the experience, but because I really had nothing to lose. As long as my work was done and patients were being taken care of, I really didn't have to take crap from anybody -- I knew I could quit and not lose anything, so despite some long hours I didn't stress in the same way a lot of other interns did. That wouldn't have quite been the same story had I been in the U.S. or it was required to continue to residency. And I absolutely walked away at the end with a much better comprehension of the real world for clinicians -- not the same as an attending, but better than the average finishing medical student. This included not just communication, but what was important to a clinician at any given moment, what was typically looked at and not looked at, what was shotgun ordered and why, what clinicians were taking seriously and what they were not, why certain critical values were and were not "critical" to a clinician for a given patient, etc. etc. etc.

As for med school, with rare exceptions it doesn't come anywhere close to exposing you to the real world responsibilities of an intern, resident, or attending. For the most part, the basic science years of medical school are hurdles to cull out those not willing to work and wait. Which is unfortunate, because the clinical years barely offer enough time and background to understand medicine...much less be able to "practice" medicine after graduation. (Thus, of course, we have internship/residency prior to progressing to more specialized training.)
 
3rd and 4th year of med school was my intern year. Maybe the med school experience is cushier now or something, but mine was essentially internship-like. I learned a lot during those years that I apply to my practice. An intern year would have been a total waste of time and effort for me, IMHO. I might have picked up some useful tidbits but not worth a year of my life. Especially when you can pick up these tidbits via other methods like close relationships with clinicians.

And I'm sorry, but if you can't get credibility at your hospital with other physicians unless you have done an intern year, that's pretty weak. That says more about the other pathologists than the fact that you did an intern year.
 
I agree - you can use your 4th year of med school to do easy rotations or do lots of path rotations or you can do other things that will help you in your career. I did a derm rotation, ID, heme/onc, cardiology, in addition to the required stuff. Those taught me a lot that I still use today. An intern year might have helped had I not done so much during 3rd and 4th year. I'm sure, as lipomas said, that it would have helped me anyway but I doubt it would be worth the one year of work + lost income + etc.
 
Having done an IM internship with the military and serving as a GP, I am now applying for pathology. Will any of my internship rotations count? Maybe take the place of some elective time so I can finish up early? Can get paid as a PGY2 instead of PGY1 when I start? Can I ask these questions during interviews?

You might be able to paid as a PGY2, but not much, if any, will count to being board eligible for pathology.
 
Yeah I remember all the stuff about how great it was going to be....with that clinical requirement and finiding when I actaully went for my residency I was told it would be best to do the transitional year befor residency to get that experience and the DO's were better because they required it up front and the ACGME programs wouldn't accept me until I did the DO transitional anyway. That ended real quick, when DO candidates said we don't care about the AOA requirements and will go for ABP certification.
I am not a really old fart but I will give some background to the 5th year thing that lots of people seem to not understand. I come to this with an approx 30 year prospective. I graduated med school ( U of I ) in 1977. Navy type and I HAD to do a clinical internship with a couple years of what amounted to general practice prior to beginning the residency of my choice. I had my eye on pathology for a number of years particularly after a 45 day active duty stint at Bethesda late in my junior year. It was great.
We had Ackerman( when he was young) , Sharon Weiss ( who was super), the folks from across the street at NIH and it was all a blast. Did my clinical duty and did my residency 81-85 and an AFIP fellowship 85-86. All during this time there was talk about the new mandatory 5th year. The concern was that we ( the pathology educational system) were turning out a bunch of high-class morphologists who had no clinical background whatsoever ( the crap in med school does not count) and they wanted to require a year of MEANINGFUL clinical medicine experience, primarily so a pathologist had some empathy and understanding where he/she fit into the big picture as a CONSULTANT to CLINICIANS. They wanted you to have to sit on the phone with someone in the pathology department looking for some answers while YOUR clinical patient was in YOUR office in tears worried about her breast CA or lack thereof.

Well, it went thru but got bastardized thru lack of balls on the part of the ABP and the lack of interest of aspiring pathologists to really give a s*** about the REAL aims of the 5th year. So---out the window the "5th" year went and as I see the masses come by year after year, we still have a lot of the same problems. I could list several other problems such as big problems with "communication" skills ( euphamism ). But the ABP has shown that they will cut-and-run when there is any push against some reasonable goals.

Sorry for the long, and somewhat bitter post.
 
Having done an IM internship with the military and serving as a GP, I am now applying for pathology. Will any of my internship rotations count? Maybe take the place of some elective time so I can finish up early? Can get paid as a PGY2 instead of PGY1 when I start? Can I ask these questions during interviews?

I think this is entirely program-specific. My program will not acknowledge my intern year in terms of salary. As such, they pay me as a PGY-4 while I'm a PGY-5. I did, however, get some credit for pathology rotations I did during my intern year (OK'd by ABP) which helped me to offset my maternity leave and not delay my boards.

When I applied to Pathology, I asked most programs if they would allow me to do a 1 year internship/transitional year prior to beginning my training. They all said no. If I really wanted to do it, I would have had to go through the match twice in successive years. The main reason is likely that the program would have to pay for a year of my training out of their own pocket. Doing a clinical year has gone from "mandatory" to "impossible."

I don't believe this is true. Medicare will pay for the years required to complete a training program (i.e. pathology=4 yrs, pediatrics=3 yrs, IM=3yrs, radiology=4 yrs etc). The countdown begins from the start of your residency. Since, a prelim/intern/transitional year isn't a part of the training program in itself, it doesn't count toward this total time. If you choose to do an intern year, your official countdown wouldn't start until you enter your pathology residency (this is my current situation, having done an intern year and in my 4th year of pathology). It does apply, however, if you decide to switch to another specialty after starting a residency (i.e switching from IM to radiology, you would be short at least 2 years since you would probably get credit for your intern year, leaving 2 paid years left, and would have to complete 4 additional years)

As far as the match goes, with the exception of programs that require a prelim year, a program can only match for the upcoming year. So, if you chose to do a prelim year first, you would have to apply for pathology the next year (of course, at that point you could go outside of the match if the program was willing to do so).
 
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