Extracurriculars and Residency Placement

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EBI831

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Hey, just wondering how important it is to be involved in clubs in medical school. i mean beyond that how important is it to be an officer/leader in it, you know the stuff that looked good for med school apps. The reason i ask is because the only position i wanted, the whole class ran for and i didn't get it and i dont' see a point in runniing for other stuff except if its imperative for residency to demonstrate maturity and commitment. otherwise, i'd rather just stick to stuff i'm interested in and be a member etc without the hassel and have a fun life apart from med school.
 
Focus more on your grades. The rest is fluff, and can't hurt to have- just do stuff that you enjoy.
 
EBI831 said:
Hey, just wondering how important it is to be involved in clubs in medical school. i mean beyond that how important is it to be an officer/leader in it, you know the stuff that looked good for med school apps. The reason i ask is because the only position i wanted, the whole class ran for and i didn't get it and i dont' see a point in runniing for other stuff except if its imperative for residency to demonstrate maturity and commitment. otherwise, i'd rather just stick to stuff i'm interested in and be a member etc without the hassel and have a fun life apart from med school.
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Your academics (grades and USMLE) are the biggest determinant of residency placement. The rest is virtually unimportant. If you want to hold office in medical school then do so but not for the purpose of trying to "impress" a residency program director.
 
as honorable (and sometimes needed!) as it is to be class president or some other big responsibility position can be, you should only do it if you really love doing it. smart people every year match into their choice specialties without having that stuff on their CVs because extracurricular activities are less important to PDs.

I think its more important to maintain personal interests and hobbies as they show you know how to take time for yourself, something that will be challenging in residency and as an attending (just as it is right now as a student). Just remember that you have already gotten into the medical community...the things that PDs want out of 4th year medical students are different than what med school admissions committees out of college seniors.
 
Agreed with the above, but I'll even go a step further. I think that taking on a position with a club is more of a negative for the following...

EC's mean little to nothing to PD's. It's year 3-4 grades, step 1, LOR's, then maybe Step 2, and waaaaay down the list is EC's. Thus, with the time devoted to EC's, you could be a) studying to improve grades, or b) pursuing outside interests that have nothing to do with medicine (i.e. working out, pursuing hobbies, spending time with loved ones). All of which would probably be more worthwhile than EC's.
 
Biscuit799 said:
Agreed with the above, but I'll even go a step further. I think that taking on a position with a club is more of a negative for the following...

EC's mean little to nothing to PD's. It's year 3-4 grades, step 1, LOR's, then maybe Step 2, and waaaaay down the list is EC's. Thus, with the time devoted to EC's, you could be a) studying to improve grades, or b) pursuing outside interests that have nothing to do with medicine (i.e. working out, pursuing hobbies, spending time with loved ones). All of which would probably be more worthwhile than EC's.
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I wouldn't take it so far as to call them negative. Some of my EC's were mentioned highly in my LORs (as told to me by program directors as I've been interviewing) and made a favorable impression - though they are still obviously only one part of the total package residencies may be looking for.
 
EBI831 said:
Hey, just wondering how important it is to be involved in clubs in medical school. i mean beyond that how important is it to be an officer/leader in it, you know the stuff that looked good for med school apps. The reason i ask is because the only position i wanted, the whole class ran for and i didn't get it and i dont' see a point in runniing for other stuff except if its imperative for residency to demonstrate maturity and commitment. otherwise, i'd rather just stick to stuff i'm interested in and be a member etc without the hassel and have a fun life apart from med school.
Click to expand...

In terms of residency, such ECs are pretty irrelevant. Only do them if it's something you are really interested in. You would get a lot more mileage spending the same amount of time studying more.
 
BillyWitchDoctr said:
I wouldn't take it so far as to call them negative. Some of my EC's were mentioned highly in my LORs (as told to me by program directors as I've been interviewing) and made a favorable impression - though they are still obviously only one part of the total package residencies may be looking for.
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Good point. I could definitely see how an EC contributing to an LOR could help. I guess that at my school, years 3 and 4 are done at regional campuses rather than the main campus. Therefore, unless you specifically mention it, faculty physicians have no way of knowing anything about your EC's. Thus they're probably more irrelevant at my school than at many others.
 
A few extracurricular activities may have some benefits. I've heard rumors of people networking pretty effectively through some organizations that are involved with area physicians (specialty interest groups, Christian medical societies, volunteering at local clinics alongside doctors). But I agree as well, your yield in this is very low compared to the other things mentioned.

Residency is MUCH more a job interview than medical school application. Most residencies are not going to take a lower scoring, lower ranked student because "Oh, he's so well rounded" or "He's going to bring a diverse background to our group".
 
What about research as an EC? How is it weighted compared to all other components of one's app?
 
Everyone around me seems to be involved in many school related extracurricular activities. I really only do 2 school related mostly because I enjoy them. Otherwise I spend time getting to know people, Taekwondo and knitting. I even knit in class when lectures permit it. Definitely only do the extra stuff if you want to. Your time is too precious to do it when it won't matter for an application. I know quite a few people who will be doing research this summer and mostly because they enjoy it. I don't enjoy research so I'll be doing something else.
 
QuantumMechanic said:
...the things that PDs want out of 4th year medical students are different than what med school admissions committees out of college seniors.
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Just curious as to why the double standard?

The core values that programs seek shouldn't change b/w med school and residency. So if you look at the umbrella factors -

MCAT ~ USMLE
Grades ~ Grades
Research ~ Research
ECs ~ ECs
Communication skills ~ Communication skills
Drive/Desire to be a doctor ~ Drive/Desire to be a (specific type of) doctor.

Clearly the focus becomes more acute into your field of interest, but the core values don't (shouldn't?) change. Just as in med school apps a terrific EC would unlikely trump exceptionally poor academic performance over a long period, so it (IMHO) would elicit the same concern from a PD during residency apps. You apply to be a grasshopper then, you apply to be a grasshopper now. Though now when you're asked to jump, you've learned to just jump and not ask how high till the attending says otherwise. 🙂

Though perhaps there is the added "get along with this guy" or "plays well with others in the sandbox" factor during residency apps since you are after all applying for a job.
 
I've gotten all my EC-involving behavior out in college. The BS and drama that comes out of ECs like student government and committees only makes M1 year more stressful than it is.
 
So what experienced people here are saying is that ECs really don't mean anything? That the match is just a big system that corrals you into a specialty based on your desire, school, class stading, and USMLE scores?

ie, you are more competative for a derm residency with a 240, AOA than with a 230, club leadership, and research and that a 210 would have no chance no matter how charismatic the applicant?
 
Slide said:
I've gotten all my EC-involving behavior out in college. The BS and drama that comes out of ECs like student government and committees only makes M1 year more stressful than it is.
Click to expand...

👍
 
I have actually found ECs to be pretty useful in terms of making friends and getting to know the administration at my school. However, I don't just join clubs to put something on my resume, and I don't expect my involvement to make up for poor grades, etc. So studying and family remain my biggest priorities.
 
njbmd said:
Your academics (grades and USMLE) are the biggest determinant of residency placement. The rest is virtually unimportant. If you want to hold office in medical school then do so but not for the purpose of trying to "impress" a residency program director.
Click to expand...

Njbmd, if I recall correctly, you are in a surgical field. Do you know if this is true for other residencies as well? I had heard that IM, FM, PM&R and some others do take EC's into account to a considerable extent.

Actually, I would be kind of relieved if they didn't. Who is it that has all this extra time for EC's in med school anyway? I like to sleep sometimes, and thus EC's have been limited so far.
 
Twitch said:
Just curious as to why the double standard?

The core values that programs seek shouldn't change b/w med school and residency.
Click to expand...

Although the core values don't change, the weight those values get does, and for a very simple reason:

If a person with outstanding EC's and a mediocre GPA fails out of medical school, it causes almost no problems for the school. Sure, they probably have to report their failure rate somewhere and if a poor candidate fails to match that looks bad for the school also, but overall the damage is minimal.

If a person with outstanding EC's and a mediocre GPA fails out of residency, it's a huge problem. The whole call schedule needs to be rebuilt and someone else is going to end up picking up the slack. Getting residents off cycle is very difficult.

Hence, as a PD, I am much more interested in how you did academically than what your EC's were. EC's never make up for poor USMLE's / grades. Given two identical academic level students, then the one with more EC's will have an edge.
 
wanabdoc said:
So what experienced people here are saying is that ECs really don't mean anything? That the match is just a big system that corrals you into a specialty based on your desire, school, class stading, and USMLE scores?

ie, you are more competative for a derm residency with a 240, AOA than with a 230, club leadership, and research and that a 210 would have no chance no matter how charismatic the applicant?
Click to expand...

Actually, you can "statistically" answer this. The NRMP publishes a document called "Charting Outcomes in the Match" which reports all sorts of match data by specialty.

For Derm, the Mean USMLE (all Step 1) was 238, Median 240, 25%ile 229, 75%ile 249

Since the mean and median are close, it's likely the scores follow a normal distribution. A mean of 238 and a SD of 14 yield a 25th %ile of 229. A 210 would be the 1.5%ile. There were 248 derm spots last year, so approximately 248 * 0.015 = 4 people matched in derm with a Step 1 of 210.

Unfortunately, the median is larger than the mean, telling us that the distribution is skewed towards larger scores. Thus, these calculations probably overpredict how many people matched in derm with a 210.

Bottom line is this -- a 210 won't likely get you an interview, so they'll never see your winning personality. Sad but true.
 
Twitch said:
Just curious as to why the double standard?

The core values that programs seek shouldn't change b/w med school and residency.
Click to expand...

It would only be a true double standard if the entire situation was the same, including the end result, which it is not in this case. In applying to medical school, you are trying to demonstrate that you are well-rounded and very well capable of being a physician. In applying for a residency, you are already a physician. A PD, like most other bosses, won't care what you do with your spare time; he/she will only care what you can do while on duty. ECs show virtually no insight into how one is capable of performing during residency.
 
Twitch said:
Just curious as to why the double standard?

The core values that programs seek shouldn't change b/w med school and residency. So if you look at the umbrella factors -

MCAT ~ USMLE
Grades ~ Grades
Research ~ Research
ECs ~ ECs
Communication skills ~ Communication skills
Drive/Desire to be a doctor ~ Drive/Desire to be a (specific type of) doctor.

Clearly the focus becomes more acute into your field of interest, but the core values don't (shouldn't?) change. Just as in med school apps a terrific EC would unlikely trump exceptionally poor academic performance over a long period, so it (IMHO) would elicit the same concern from a PD during residency apps. You apply to be a grasshopper then, you apply to be a grasshopper now. Though now when you're asked to jump, you've learned to just jump and not ask how high till the attending says otherwise. 🙂

Though perhaps there is the added "get along with this guy" or "plays well with others in the sandbox" factor during residency apps since you are after all applying for a job.
Click to expand...

A college student with top grades and MCAT scores but with no extracurricular involvement and no community service is going to have a very hard time getting into medical school.

A medical student with top grades and USMLE scores with no extracurricular involvement and no community service is going to match into almost any specialty she wants.
 
QuantumMechanic said:
A medical student with top grades and USMLE scores with no extracurricular involvement and no community service is going to match into almost any specialty she wants.
Click to expand...

Thanx for this thread, it really changed my perspective.
 
just curious...with all other things being equal (i.e. academics, step scores, etc.) wouldn't a person with ECs (especially ones pertinent to the residency) be a more competitive applicant? Ya'll are making it seem like they don't count for anything-- I mean, of course you have to get good grades but experience counts for something as well.
 
phoenix0610 said:
just curious...with all other things being equal (i.e. academics, step scores, etc.) wouldn't a person with ECs (especially ones pertinent to the residency) be a more competitive applicant? Ya'll are making it seem like they don't count for anything-- I mean, of course you have to get good grades but experience counts for something as well.
Click to expand...

Yes, all others being equal. I think the point of this thread is that sacrificing grades for EC's is in general a bad idea.

Ice Nine said:
Said document is accessible via the link in my signature.

aProg--what do you think about step 2? How many of your applicants report it?
Click to expand...

Currently in my application cycle:
56% of US Allo MD's have a Step 2 reported.
62% of US Osteo's have a Step 2 reported (COMLEX or USMLE)
96% of IMG's have a Step 2 reported.
 
phoenix0610 said:
just curious...with all other things being equal (i.e. academics, step scores, etc.) wouldn't a person with ECs (especially ones pertinent to the residency) be a more competitive applicant? Ya'll are making it seem like they don't count for anything-- I mean, of course you have to get good grades but experience counts for something as well.
Click to expand...

The thing is that things are never equal. There will always be a couple points difference in Step I score, or number of Honors, or types of LOR's. Obviously if things are COMPLETELY equal the EC's will make a difference but that extra H or 4 or 5 Step I points are going to trump that every time
 
I just wanted to say that I think this thread is gold. I was just about to start a thread just like this, but as soon as I read this I was enlightened. 🙂

I am a first year, and I have gotten mixed responses regarding the importance of EC's for residencies. I was recently talking to a third year and she told me that I should get involved with at least one or two activities and be committed to them. Activities such as AMSA, or some of the specialty interest groups. The question that I have is this though: Since I am not sure what kind of residency I am really interested in yet, does it matter which of the interest groups I actually become very active in? I mean I figured that I should have SOMETHING to say about what I did in my first year besides studying.

To be honest though, as we all know, there is not that much free time for us. So I like to spend that free time doing stuff that I enjoy and keep me sane. However, none of these activities that I like to do for fun such as exercising, cooking, etc. can be put on my resume. 🙁
 
Futuredoc1364 said:
The question that I have is this though: Since I am not sure what kind of residency I am really interested in yet, does it matter which of the interest groups I actually become very active in?
Click to expand...

No, not really.

Same way it doesn't really matter what kind of research you do.
 
I'm a resident, and I interview applicants for our program. In the short amount of time I have with them, I'm not really going to want to talk about how they were the treasurer of their AMSA chapter, or whatever. Honestly, I just want to make sure they smell OK, make good eye contact, and generally seem like decent individuals (you'd be surprised at how many strange people there are out there). Then, when we're making our evaluation, we stick with the things that are important and comparable across applicants: grades, test scores, publications/research experiences, etc. These are the benchmarks that we can then sit with the admission committee and use to directly compare applicants. It means a lot more to me to see someone who has consistently shown professional-level commitment to their education and research than someone who managed a soup kitchen but had to re-take step 1.
 
To the O.P. if you do not feel that you would excel in a leadership position in a club that you are not enthusiastic about..by all means don't run for it. Med School is not like college where it is imperative to hold leadership positions for leadership's sake. That being said...some of the most intelligent students at my school are the ones that are most involved. I don't know why people on these boards feel as though somehow being involved in ecs detracts from studying? I only join those groups that I feel as though I would bring something to that no one else would be able to. If I honestly do not feel as though I can lead an organization...I don't. What is the point of it? You're just wasting your own time and everyone else's...get involved in something that you are passionate about. There are so many clubs that make a real difference in the community. Believe it or not...I am sure there is some organization that would be better served with you being at its helm or at the very least on its board..discover those opportunities.

I personally feel as though it is my obligation to serve the community..be it in a leadership position or not...I would sure as hell work in a soup kitchen and serve my community than be a some Phd's lab monkey.
 
Thank god,

EC's and the rest of that fluff almost kept me out of med school. Finally, someone cares about how good of doctor you'll be and not how well rounded a person your are. Sometimes I think 'normal' people are the ones who would rather just sit around and watch some TV in their spare time and not climb everest and cure cancer.
 
contulusa said:
I personally feel as though it is my obligation to serve the community..be it in a leadership position or not...I would sure as hell work in a soup kitchen and serve my community than be a some Phd's lab monkey.
Click to expand...

Yet sometimes lab monkeys contribute to important advances in medicine which affect millions of lives. Don't overlook the service that research does for humanity.
 
I by no means meant to degrade meaningful research, only the reasons why some choose to pursue it as a means to an end. I do not think one should value research over other pursuits such as community outreach. I think those residency directors do a great diservice by continuing to value research as somehow 'superior' to making a valuable contribution to society. One could argue that Clinical Medicine has more in common with service than with basic science research.
 
I think one major difference between applying for medical school and applying for residency is that in the latter case, you're applying for a real job in which if you screw up, it does not bode well for the person who hired you. Thus, while it might tickle someone's fancy that you played the saxomaphone, "traveled to Africa to help people," or climbed Mt. Kilimanjaro, when you're applying for a real job, all of that goes out the window compared to one primary aim--your performance in medical school and how it relates to your future potential as a resident. The reason why research is important for some residencies is that at major academic centers, money, grants, and prestige have a lot to do with the caliber of research performed there, and there is the thinking that medical students who do research are more likely to contribute to research in the future. Of course, there are many community-based programs in which research is not a particularly big focus.
 
contulusa said:
That being said...some of the most intelligent students at my school are the ones that are most involved.
Click to expand...

I agree - there are only maybe 1 or 2 of those people in my class, but these superstars do it all; perfect grades, research/pubs, community service and leadership, in a relationship - I imagine these are the same people that end up in the top positions in highly competitive specialties, eventually becoming department heads or president.

Honestly, it makes me think that ECs end up being an excuse rather than a reason for not doing well academically.
 
contulusa said:
I by no means meant to degrade meaningful research, only the reasons why some choose to pursue it as a means to an end. I do not think one should value research over other pursuits such as community outreach. I think those residency directors do a great diservice by continuing to value research as somehow 'superior' to making a valuable contribution to society. One could argue that Clinical Medicine has more in common with service than with basic science research.
Click to expand...

Research is what brings departments money. Community outreach only does so much (or more like does so little). In a day of age where competing for funding is competitive, donors tend to dish out money to places where research is strong because of its potential to help future patients.
 
For those of us who work part time, and do internships/work over the summer, do you think that has bearing on residency applications?

I understand that, to be honest, no one cares if you're secretary of xxxx club when you're applying...but say for example, my situation - I work as an after-hours emergency technician at my school's Clin-Path lab, and have done a few great summer externships in various comparative medicine/pathology programs....I plan to apply for pathology residencies after I get my degree.

I assume *those* kind of "extracurriculars" would be quite influential? Not as much as grades of course, but still?
 
Work and internships *during* med school (or in my case, vet school - sorry I sneak into your boards 😀 but as I am into path/research/comparative medicine I also am very interested in human med!) I realize jobs and such during undergrad probably wouldn't count for much. Yes, I am a full-time vet student and have a part-time job as well. I am crazy. Or a masochist. But then again I like path, so it all goes together:laugh:

I imagine such things could count for quite a lot, because it shows that you can excel at a job (and a residency is technically a job) as well as just being good at academics - i.e. being proactive and seeking real-world opportunities outside of the classroom.
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
Work and internships *during* med school (or in my case, vet school - sorry I sneak into your boards 😀 but as I am into path/research/comparative medicine I also am very interested in human med!) I realize jobs and such during undergrad probably wouldn't count for much. Yes, I am a vet student and have a part time job. I am crazy. Or a masochist. But then again I like path, so it all goes together:laugh:
Click to expand...

I don't know if what we know applies to veterinary post doctoral training. Is that what you're inquiring about?
 
I was under the impression that vet and a med residency are pretty much the same thing...? A ~3 year program focusing on a specific area of medicine. You basically work as a doctor, albeit a "supervised" doctor 😉 leading hopefully to board certification in your specialty. You also attend rounds and do all of the "intern-y" things. You work hard and get paid crap too heh.

We also have, of course, "specialty training" here and there- but we *definitely* have actual residencies.

As far as I know, a residency is a residency is a residency....I could be mistaken, but I don't see a difference
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
I was under the impression that vet and a med residency are pretty much the same thing...? A ~3 year program focusing on a specific area of medicine. You basically work as a doctor, albeit a "supervised" doctor 😉 leading hopefully to board certification in your specialty. You also attend rounds and do all of the "intern-y" things. You work hard and get paid crap too heh.
...
As far as I know, a residency is a residency is a residency....I could be mistaken, but I don't see a difference
Click to expand...

I will confess my ignorance here (as I know little about vet medicine, short of what my research institution requires for IACUC purposes). Do you guys round on inpatient animals in animal hospitals? Are residents staying overnight at these hospitals? Do you round and write progress notes, discuss interesting cases, etc.?

I guess I hadn't realized that so many people were sending their pets to hospitals.
 
Do you guys round on inpatient animals in animal hospitals? Are residents staying overnight at these hospitals? Do you round and write progress notes, discuss interesting cases, etc.?

*begin small hijack*
Absolutely. Rounds are incredibly important, both for our fourth year (a full twelve month year during which we do through continous, rotating 4-week clerkships...e.g. you do a surgery clerkship, pathology, orthopedics, dermatology, opthalmology, emergency medicine, large animal field work, exotics, repro, etc) and in actual residency. Rounds, meeting, case discussion, board review/study meetings, as well as all of the "usual doctor things" with actual clients and their patients.

Most residencies are done at other vet schools- i.e. large teaching hospitals and research insitutions with huge caseloads, as opposed to small private practice - so yes quite possibly you may be staying overnight, if you have a patient in ICU, etc (most private practice vets have staff for that). I know some fourth years have had to spend incredible amount of time at our hospital. And they let you know about it:laugh:

*end hijack*

In addition to "what makes a successful residency candidate"...

I was interested in if there was any "selection" difference in med residencies versus vet. For us, yes, grades are #1 in some residencies. Surgery residency is so competitive that if you have less than a 3.8/3.9 GPA, your chances are markedly reduced. Orthopedics and opthalomology are also very grade-dependent. But it seems that the other "less common/popular" residencies like pathology or public health/epidemiology take much more into consideration when selecting a resident, because there are fewer applicants they have more time to look at the "whole person" they are hiring, instead of having to throw a huge percetage of people out based on grades just to narrow a huge field.
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
I was under the impression that vet and a med residency are pretty much the same thing...? A ~3 year program focusing on a specific area of medicine. You basically work as a doctor, albeit a "supervised" doctor 😉 leading hopefully to board certification in your specialty. You also attend rounds and do all of the "intern-y" things. You work hard and get paid crap too heh.

We also have, of course, "specialty training" here and there- but we *definitely* have actual residencies.

As far as I know, a residency is a residency is a residency....I could be mistaken, but I don't see a difference
Click to expand...


Well, its 3 years at a minimum, depending on your specialty choice. Residency lifestyle can be very specialty dependent. Surgical residencies are notorious for being more demanding on its residents as opposed to medicine residencies. Demand can also vary within the same specialty on a program to program basis. Residencies can be "all over the map", FYI 😉

Unless I misunderstood your point and you mean medical vs veterinary residencies are similar in style, I can't argue with that!
 
How big are these animal hospitals? How many beds do they typically have?
 
Quite large! This is nothing like your little corner community vet.

We see 40,000+ patients per year in the hospital and in the field, including horses, cows, dogs, cats, pigs, birds....you name it.

We also have a special equine center in Leesburg...I am not positive what their caseload is.

http://www.vth.vt.edu/clinicalservices.asp

We also have a pretty amazing array of equipment and the like.

Do you mean people beds or animal "beds" 😉 ?
 
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