Extracurriculars...How?

[bigbad]

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Well I might have already waited too long to start looking for volunteering opportunities. I'm a freshman and it hasn't been 2 full months since I started school and all the hospitals in my area seem to have all their volunteering spots full.

Even the freakin' Kaiser down the street is already full until April next year. Also I was not aware I'd need to apply with 2 letters of rec... How am I supposed to get letters of rec when I've known my teachers a few weeks?

Is the next step looking for shadowing opportunities until I can apply for volunteering and maybe get it? I'm a little worried since volunteering is pretty much required and I thought it would be the easiest thing to get started with before I do other things...

Is finding shadowing a lot harder? I don't really know any doctors in my area and I'm guessing my personal doctors are already out since they would maybe give me conflicting letters of rec right?

Thanks guys.

 

[rockaction]

you're just a freshman, so I wouldn't worry about volunteering yet. just do well in your first year of college and get in on volunteering next year. you don't need to have 1,000 hours logged before applying...I got away with 8 months of regular clinical volunteering.

as far as shadowing goes, I didn't do a lot so I don't know how to find doctors to shadow. I mostly shadowed family members, friends of family, and my research PI.

other ways you can find people to shadow:
-when you end up volunteering, meet some docs
-if you have any pre-med friends that are older than you, maybe they can hook you up with some docs
-join your school's pre-med club (if you have one, which I'm sure you do), and they might have some resources available to you

 

[LizzyM]

Don't waste your time getting letters of recommendation from docs who let you shadow. The letters are worthless. Just keep track of the doctors' names and the dates that you shadow. (Keep a little diary. Also jot down memorable things that you saw, heard, etc).

If you can't get into a hospital, try an outpatient clinic for a volunteer opportunity. Nursing homes and hospices are other options.

 

[Contrarian]

Don't waste your time getting letters of recommendation from docs who let you shadow. The letters are worthless. Just keep track of the doctors' names and the dates that you shadow. (Keep a little diary. Also jot down memorable things that you saw, heard, etc).

If you can't get into a hospital, try an outpatient clinic for a volunteer opportunity. Nursing homes and hospices are other options.

are they meaningless even if you shadow them on a regular basis for several months and they get to know you well on a personal level?

 

[LizzyM]

are they meaningless even if you shadow them on a regular basis for several months and they get to know you well on a personal level?

I've never seen a letter (and I've been reading them for 10 years) that provided me with useful information (to interview or not to interview).

 

[Contrarian]

I've never seen a letter (and I've been reading them for 10 years) that provided me with useful information (to interview or not to interview).

hmm... I felt like one of the doctors I worked with understood my medically-related motivation better than any of my professors could, but you obviously know better than I do. Hopefully it doesn't hurt too much.

 

[BennieBlanco]

Don't waste your time getting letters of recommendation from docs who let you shadow. The letters are worthless. Just keep track of the doctors' names and the dates that you shadow. (Keep a little diary. Also jot down memorable things that you saw, heard, etc).

If you can't get into a hospital, try an outpatient clinic for a volunteer opportunity. Nursing homes and hospices are other options.

Lizzy,

could you please explain why many MD and most all DO programs ask for a letter from an MD or DO that we have been shadowing?

I actually agree 100%, I have been shadowing an MD for 6 months but he has never seen me perform or do anything. He only sees I have an interest in medicine and that I can ask questions.

Why the charade?

 

[wanderer]

Relax! You're a freshman, meaning you still have at least 2 years left to start volunteering. Since you're starting early, try to be a part of something you really enjoy. The typical hospital volunteering can come later.

 

[BennieBlanco]

hmm... I felt like one of the doctors I worked with understood my medically-related motivation better than any of my professors could, but you obviously know better than I do. Hopefully it doesn't hurt too much.

exactly, a doctor can see motivation/personality but they can't attest to competence in any way or form.

The whole medical school application process seems funny to me, but if they told me to shovel cow poop 4 hrs a week for my app I would do it. Just doing what they tell me to to become a doc.

 

[Contrarian]

exactly, a doctor can see motivation/personality but they can't attest to competence in any way or form.

The whole medical school application process seems funny to me, but if they told me to shovel cow poop 4 hrs a week for my app I would do it. Just doing what they tell me to to become a doc.

are letters designed to attest to competence? isn't that what gpa and the mcat is about?

I figured the purpose of letters were to gauge personality, communication skills, professionalism, and motivation... the stuff that can't be taken from the numbers.

Anyway, if it's competence they're trying to determine, I doubt my prof letters will tell them anything they couldn't already figure out from my stats.

 

[ILikeDrugs]

Don't waste your time getting letters of recommendation from docs who let you shadow. The letters are worthless. Just keep track of the doctors' names and the dates that you shadow. (Keep a little diary. Also jot down memorable things that you saw, heard, etc).

If you can't get into a hospital, try an outpatient clinic for a volunteer opportunity. Nursing homes and hospices are other options.

If not the doctor we shadow on a weekly basis, which MDs are we suppose to get LORs from?

 

[rockaction]

If not the doctor we shadow on a weekly basis, which MDs are we suppose to get LORs from?

You don't need an MD LOR...you need LORs from professors, research PIs, and bosses...stuff like that. People who can attest to your character and competency. I got an LOR from an MD but it was my research PI, so it wasn't the MD part that was carrying any weight in the letter, it was the relationship between me and the person.

 

[LizzyM]

My school does not require a letter from a physician. I can't explain why some schools do.

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Well I might have already waited too long to start looking for volunteering opportunities. I'm a freshman and it hasn't been 2 full months since I started school and all the hospitals in my area seem to have all their volunteering spots full.

So volunteer someplace other than a hospital. 🙂

 

[bigbad]

So volunteer someplace other than a hospital. 🙂

Like a soup kitchen or Habitat? I'm gonna try to get more info about how/where I do that but any other suggestions about any other good places? 😀

 

[MossPoh]

I honestly don't think most hospital volunteering is beneficial. It is treated as a checkbox for most premeds. There are TONS of things to be actively involved in. You will need clinical experience, but you have significant time to build that up. I didn't even think I wanted to go to med school till I damn near graduated.

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Like a soup kitchen or Habitat? I'm gonna try to get more info about how/where I do that but any other suggestions about any other good places? 😀

Sure! Or you could tutor disadvantaged kids, most metropolitan areas have programs like that. I also volunteer at a nursing home during activities. I don't consider it clinical experience because I am working with people as residents, not as patients, but it's way more fun than the hospital volunteering job I have. There, I get to buzz people in and out of labor and delivery and hound them about having a visitor badge. 🙄 Not fun at all. The nursing home gig is great, though.

There are tons and tons of volunteering opportunities out there. If you attend a decent-sized or religious-affiliated university, your school should have a database or office that can give you more specific information on volunteer programs in your area.

Hospital volunteering jobs are a dime a dozen. They get so many pre-meds that it's unlikely you'll find an interesting volunteer opportunity at a hospital unless you get lucky or you know someone who works there. It's much easier to get an active role when you volunteer for something that's less popular.

 

[BennieBlanco]

are letters designed to attest to competence? isn't that what gpa and the mcat is about?

I figured the purpose of letters were to gauge personality, communication skills, professionalism, and motivation... the stuff that can't be taken from the numbers.

Anyway, if it's competence they're trying to determine, I doubt my prof letters will tell them anything they couldn't already figure out from my stats.

It is funny to think that letters are about personality. I recommend this guy's personality.

I don't know just sounds odd to me. If I gave someone a recommendation and they did poor work but had a great personality then I would feel bad. I guess you're stating they are recommending how they perceive your professionalism and personality? Interesting but not what I think when I hear recommendation.

Also professionalism as in, showing up on time and being proper around patients. I've shadowed maybe 50 hrs or so and I'm not quite sure how the MD attests to my professionalism.

maybe I'm wrong and I'm thinking too much "real world" as opposed to "academic world" which are 2 completely different animals.

 

[Contrarian]

It is funny to think that letters are about personality. I recommend this guy's personality.

I don't know just sounds odd to me. If I gave someone a recommendation and they did poor work but had a great personality then I would feel bad. I guess you're stating they are recommending how they perceive your professionalism and personality? Interesting but not what I think when I hear recommendation.

Also professionalism as in, showing up on time and being proper around patients. I've shadowed maybe 50 hrs or so and I'm not quite sure how the MD attests to my professionalism.

maybe I'm wrong and I'm thinking too much "real world" as opposed to "academic world" which are 2 completely different animals.

I think it is appropriate to recommend based on personal characteristics such as professionalism and affability. What else are you recommending on? Capability (which can be determined from stats)?

 

[goldandapager]

Don't live your life to get into medical school. Achieve what you want to achieve and satisfy your interests. Just excel at what you do and you'll be fine. You'll find opportunities that spark your interest if you dig deep enough.

 

[surftheiop]

I've never seen a letter (and I've been reading them for 10 years) that provided me with useful information (to interview or not to interview).

Could you elaborate on this a little more?

I had always figured that grades and MCAT were the part of the application that measured your intellectual capacity/drive and then that letters of recomendation help to access your non-cognitive traits to make sure your the right type of person for clinical work.

If someone has spent 50+ hours shadowing a doctor then wouldnt that doctor be qualified to comment on a person's non-cognitive traits in relation to a career in medicine? Especially considering we will already have several letters from professors wouldnt it be balancing to have one from another perspective?

 

[rockaction]

Could you elaborate on this a little more?

I had always figured that grades and MCAT were the part of the application that measured your intellectual capacity/drive and then that letters of recomendation help to access your non-cognitive traits to make sure your the right type of person for clinical work.

If someone has spent 50+ hours shadowing a doctor then wouldnt that doctor be qualified to comment on a person's non-cognitive traits in relation to a career in medicine? Especially considering we will already have several letters from professors wouldnt it be balancing to have one from another perspective?

But what would a doctor who you shadowed say? "He has great posture"? You are in no position of responsibility when you shadow a doctor...you're just there. How can the doctor you shadowed glean anything substantial to write about you? What are these "non-cognitive" traits? "He's handsome enough to be a doctor"?

 

[flip26]

Lizzy,

could you please explain why many MD and most all DO programs ask for a letter from an MD or DO that we have been shadowing?

I actually agree 100%, I have been shadowing an MD for 6 months but he has never seen me perform or do anything. He only sees I have an interest in medicine and that I can ask questions.

Why the charade?

Setting DO aside, there is a big problem with your question. Very few MD schools ask for physician shadow letters - it is a miniscule number - offhand, I recall that the Univ of Utah requires it, and I think that a couple of other MD schools do, too. But I sent in primaries to well over 20 schools, and completed secondaries for around 15 schools, and none of them asked for this kind of a letter.

Lizzy is correct - these letters are basically worthless, unless you are applying to one of the handful of schools that require a letter.

 

[randombetch]

Could you elaborate on this a little more?

I had always figured that grades and MCAT were the part of the application that measured your intellectual capacity/drive and then that letters of recomendation help to access your non-cognitive traits to make sure your the right type of person for clinical work.

If someone has spent 50+ hours shadowing a doctor then wouldnt that doctor be qualified to comment on a person's non-cognitive traits in relation to a career in medicine? Especially considering we will already have several letters from professors wouldnt it be balancing to have one from another perspective?

What's there to elaborate on?

You have basically no way to demonstrate any important "non-cognitive traits" (lol I, and my Cognitive Neuroscience professor, would argue personality is a cognitive trait) through shadowing.

 

[surftheiop]

But what would a doctor who you shadowed say? "He has great posture"? You are in no position of responsibility when you shadow a doctor...you're just there. How can the doctor you shadowed glean anything substantial to write about you? What are these "non-cognitive" traits? "He's handsome enough to be a doctor"?

Here are the type of things I figured an MD recommendation could comment on. (in no particular order)

1) That the student has a realistic view of the challenges associated with medicine and also a realistic view of the the actual practice of medicine.

2) The student is a quick learner and asks insightful/relevant questions about each patient.

3) The student has tremendous curiousity for medicine.

4) The student has good social awareness and knows when to talk with patients and when not to. Knows how to be respectful of patient's situations while having conversations with them.

5) The student responds appropriately to unexpected situations (hostility from a patient/parent of patient, getting things thrown at, etc.)

6) The student is observant and notices relevant details that are sometimes added to patient history.

7) The student is enjoyable to be around for 8 hours straight.

8) I would enjoy to have this student as an intern/resident/etc.

I mean obviously none of these prove you can do brain surgery but it seems like they could be more relevant than an organic professor saying your wicked good at stereochemistry.

 

[LizzyM]

These aren't neccesarily things that would be said of me (some of them are), but definately would be the type on things an MD recommendation could comment on. (in no particular order) <snip>.

True, but most letters are written by people who know you socially: neighbors, distant relatives, roommate's dad, and it raises questions as to the objectivity of the writer.

Some ask the applicant for a copy of the application and just repeat everything that is there: "Noah has maintained an A average with a challenging course load. In addition, he has contributed to the success of his college water polo team and tutored fellow students in organic chemistry." That is the biggest waste of everyone's time and it is not uncommon.

 

[rockaction]

Here are the type of things I figured an MD recommendation could comment on. (in no particular order)

1) That the student has a realistic view of the challenges associated with medicine and also a realistic view of the the actual practice of medicine.

2) The student is a quick learner and asks insightful/relevant questions about each patient.

3) The student has tremendous curiousity for medicine.

4) The student has good social awareness and knows when to talk with patients and when not to. Knows how to be respectful of patient's situations while having conversations with them.

5) The student responds appropriately to unexpected situations (hostility from a patient/parent of patient, getting things thrown at, etc.)

6) The student is observant and notices relevant details that are sometimes added to patient history.

7) The student is enjoyable to be around for 8 hours straight.

8) I would enjoy to have this student as an intern/resident/etc.

I mean obviously none of these prove you can do brain surgery but it seems like they could be more relevant than an organic professor saying your wicked good at stereochemistry.

No offense but those things are laaaaame. All of those things just scream "suck up" to me.

 

[flip26]

No offense but those things are laaaaame. All of those things just scream "suck up" to me.

👍

That long list tells me that the student was able to appear alert and interested for up a couple of hours at a stretch, and said student avoiding ****ing anything up or asking any stupid questions...hardly a ringing endorsement for a meaningful med school recommendation.

 

[Rawls87]

Don't waste your time getting letters of recommendation from docs who let you shadow. The letters are worthless. Just keep track of the doctors' names and the dates that you shadow. (Keep a little diary. Also jot down memorable things that you saw, heard, etc).

If you can't get into a hospital, try an outpatient clinic for a volunteer opportunity. Nursing homes and hospices are other options.

I agree with Lizzy's latter suggestion.

I still believe you can get a good letter of recommendation from a physician you have shadowed over an extensive period of time. Then they can attest to your growth in maturity, your desire to be in medicine, your curiousity, etc.
Just remember when you request LOR's, to give each writer a statement about yourself so have some interesting things to write ( or things you can remind them about)

Good luck

 

[zetabetazeta]

My school does not require a letter from a physician. I can't explain why some schools do.

Hey Lizzy, you said doctors' recommendation letters are worthless, so who should I ask for recommendation letters? Only professors?

 

[zetabetazeta]

True, but most letters are written by people who know you socially: neighbors, distant relatives, roommate's dad, and it raises questions as to the objectivity of the writer.

Some ask the applicant for a copy of the application and just repeat everything that is there: "Noah has maintained an A average with a challenging course load. In addition, he has contributed to the success of his college water polo team and tutored fellow students in organic chemistry." That is the biggest waste of everyone's time and it is not uncommon.

By the way, I think I will get 4 or 5 LORs (from research mentor, employer, church leader, hospital supervisor, and physician). I might also get one LOR from my calculus professor. Would that be enough? Thank you =]

 

[flip26]

Hey Lizzy, you said doctors' recommendation letters are worthless, so who should I ask for recommendation letters? Only professors?

You really need to read up on what med schools are looking for.

You should start with seeking letters from professors - the standard is 2 science, 1 non-science, and depending upon your major, some schools expect one of those to be from a prof in your major. These letters are critical, and they should come from profs who know you well in classes that you rocked.

After that, if your school has a pre med committee, most med schools want you to partake of the service and obtain a committee letter.

The 4 letters above will cover your needs at literally 98 percent of med schools. Additional letters that may be helpful include those from research supervisors or employers (if you have worked in a lab for, say a year or more, and list it on your AMCAS experience, med schools may expect a letter from that experience, so keep that in mind). And if you have additional prof letters that will be exceptional in their praise, those would be nice to have, too.

 

[Eyti]

Don't live your life to get into medical school. Achieve what you want to achieve and satisfy your interests. Just excel at what you do and you'll be fine. You'll find opportunities that spark your interest if you dig deep enough.

👍
I think this is one of the messages that are not pushed hard enough with incoming premeds. Its way too easy to get blinded by the obsession to get in and lose track of who you are when you're constantly trying to replicate what you see as the formula for success.

 

[Eyti]

.

 

[flip26]

What if you have a special relationship with a physician you shadowed and/or volunteered for. What if they can say something about your character because they know you well enough? Is it still worthless? I do not think it would be worthless or damaging in the least. Correct me if you think this is wrong.

Focus on getting the standard LORs you actually need (2 sci, one non sci) first, and make sure these are stellar - these should be brilliant letters - if you have not gone through the process of figuring this out, asking for and obtaining these LORs, you may be surprised at how very difficult it is to find these kinds of letters unless you already walk on water.

If you do this, then the physician letter you are describing is OK to have, but still pretty worthless in the overall scheme.

And if it is the case that your standard LORs are mediocre, not even the most stellar physician letter will save your bacon, so again, even with your hypothetical premise of a "special relationship" with a physician, his letter is pretty worthless to you regardless...

 

[LizzyM]

Hey Lizzy, you said doctors' recommendation letters are worthless, so who should I ask for recommendation letters? Only professors?

The most useful letters I've seen have been professors, employers, principal investigators when the applicant has been a member of the lab, school officials who've known the student through service to the school as a committee member, varsity coaches, and commanding officers of applicants in the military.

If your school has a pre-med or pre-professional committee or advisor who prepares a letter for applicants do all you can to get that letter (meet with the committee, jump through hoops, meet deadlines, etc). Not having such a letter when it is common knowledge that the school issues such letters is a HUGE red flag.

 

[Eyti]

.

 

[flip26]

Interesting and personally unfortunate at the same time. But it's good to know the truth about it. I'm trying to figure out what image I would project if I were to get a science letter from a professor that I saw when I was having a problem. The only two professors I got to know a little were ones that I saw to help me overcome some kind of academic problem that at it's core was a personal issue.
Can a letter have a positive influence if it does mention how I faced certain problems, recognized them for what they were, and found a way to learn and improve from the experience? The letter would not be about me walking on water, but I think that if the letter were read in the context of the rest of my application, the adcom would gain a solid understanding of who I am.
I do not mean to offend anyone by going off on this tangent, but since we are getting into a LOR discussion I figured I'd ask.

Are you still in college? Do you have more science classes to take? If yes, then you still have the opportunity to kick butt in your classes AND get to know the prof outside of the class.

As for your question about profs who can address your "problems" - I would be very leery of any LOR that focuses on anything that would be construed as a negative in a literal reading of the letter. Sure, overcoming adversity is a great thing, but...if you have more than one letter in this vein, I think it is a red flag to adcoms...

The best letters are the ones where the prof demonstrates how well he knows you, and how you were "one of the best students in my career..." These are the letters that help you, and they help because not everyone can get them, and very few people can get 3 or more letters like this...

 

[Eyti]

Are you still in college? Do you have more science classes to take? If yes, then you still have the opportunity to kick butt in your classes AND get to know the prof outside of the class.

As for your question about profs who can address your "problems" - I would be very leery of any LOR that focuses on anything that would be construed as a negative in a literal reading of the letter. Sure, overcoming adversity is a great thing, but...if you have more than one letter in this vein, I think it is a red flag to adcoms...

The best letters are the ones where the prof demonstrates how well he knows you, and how you were "one of the best students in my career..." These are the letters that help you, and they help because not everyone can get them, and very few people can get 3 or more letters like this...

Okay. Thanks for letting me know. I am going to try to build a conversation with one of the two professors I had in mind. I do want him to be able to talk about my overcoming adversity, but at the same time I want to be able to show him who I am from an academic/creative standpoint. I'll try it out and see how it goes.

 

[LizzyM]

Interesting and personally unfortunate at the same time. But it's good to know the truth about it. I'm trying to figure out what image I would project if I were to get a science letter from a professor that I saw when I was having a problem. The only two professors I got to know a little were ones that I saw to help me overcome some kind of academic problem that at it's core was a personal issue.
Can a letter have a positive influence if it does mention how I faced certain problems, recognized them for what they were, and found a way to learn and improve from the experience? The letter would not be about me walking on water, but I think that if the letter were read in the context of the rest of my application, the adcom would gain a solid understanding of who I am.
I do not mean to offend anyone by going off on this tangent, but since we are getting into a LOR discussion I figured I'd ask.

It is excellent to have a letter from someone who can confirm to the adcom that you had a difficulty, that you sought help, and that you came out of it a stronger person. We have problems with medical students who won't ask for help when they need it and finding an applicant like yourself is reassuring. It also helps to have someone explain why there may have been a dip & rise in your gpa over a period of time. These letters are best when they come from professors, not counselors or health care providers.

 

[bigbad]

How long should the student have known the professor before asking for a LOR? Does it look bad if the LOR is from a prof that you've only had for a semester or so?

We change bio teachers each quarter so the only way I could really get to know my science professor is if I do research or something.