extraordinary match lists for certain schools

[nychila]

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Why do some schools perform much better than other schools within the same "tier"? For example:

- Tufts match extensively to Harvard (about 12% of class) as well as other top hospitals like Yale
- Dartmouth match almost 15% to Harvard and a good amount to top hospitals on both coasts
- Case Western matched 9 derm, 2 plastics, 8 ophtho, 15 ortho, 4 ENT, 5 urology, most of them at top hospitals.

Schools with similar research rankings and reputations don't seem to produce match lists that are quite as good are these 3.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Look at match lists to get a general idea of where students end up, but don't nitpick the lists because so much of it is variable. Top students, who can match into derm/neurosurgery/optho, end up matching into peds because that's where their passion is. Some years, schools don't match anyone into XYZ specialty because the interest wasn't there.

 

[PreMedOrDead]

Look at match lists to get a general idea of where students end up, but don't nitpick the lists because so much of it is variable. Top students, who can match into derm/neurosurgery/optho, end up matching into peds because that's where their passion is. Some years, schools don't match anyone into XYZ specialty because the interest wasn't there.

This.

Those schools you listed are all upper-middle tier schools. Dartmouth is Ivy, after all. These schools matriculate students that are certainly capable of doing whatever they wish. I hope, upon selection of your specialty, that one is knowledgeable enough to pursue what makes them most satisfied. This is not necessarily the most specialized and at the most notorious hospital. Scanning them to see what placement is possible is fine, analyzing their contents is a bit much.

 

[235009]

I'm beginning to think that looking at match lists as a pre-med isnt as useless as people on sdn suggest however the problem is that you, and many others, do it wrong.

The overarching rule is ITS WHERE YOU GO NOT WHAT YOU DO. Premeds have a hard time embracing the fact that there are MANY people who CHOOSE to go into IM and Peds.

Premeds also have a hard time differentiating good matches. In some fields like EM the "good" programs are places you've never heard of while in IM the "good" places are generally the ones that sound impressive to lay people.

Finally you have to account for regional bias of both the PDs and the applicants. The reason many tufts students end up in the northeast while students in a midwest school end up in midwest programs is because they prefer to stay in that geographic location. Some people are applying to residency in their late 20s or 30s or older and they've already set up roots in a location and would like to stay there.

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[LovelyBRass]

I'm beginning to think that looking at match lists as a pre-med isnt as useless as people on sdn suggest however the problem is that you, and many others, do it wrong.

The overarching rule is ITS WHERE YOU GO NOT WHAT YOU DO. Premeds have a hard time embracing the fact that there are MANY people who CHOOSE to go into IM and Peds.

Premeds also have a hard time differentiating good matches. In some fields like EM the "good" programs are places you've never heard of while in IM the "good" places are generally the ones that sound impressive to lay people.

Finally you have to account for regional bias of both the PDs and the applicants. The reason many tufts students end up in the northeast while students in a midwest school end up in midwest programs is because they prefer to stay in that geographic location. Some people are applying to residency in their late 20s or 30s or older and they've already set up roots in a location and would like to stay there.

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This. It's hard to believe that people *choose* peds and medicine but I assure you, we're some of the brightest people you know. I think it's probably more important to see where people matched off their rank list! Though that would be impossible to report because people wouldn't divulge that willingly to prevent pissing people off. That would give you a better sense of how well the school does in placing people at good programs that they *want* to be at.

 

[mimelim]

Can you link to match list thats that you refer to? Just looking at the 2010 Tuft's list, I'm not seeing a Harvard predominance.

But to be honest, a match list is a reflection of the people that attend a given school, not the ability of that school to send someone somewhere. At least for the most part.

 

[nychila]

I was also referring to the 2010 match list for Tufts, which had 8 MGH, 2 Brigham, 8 BI Deaconess, and several other Harvard hospitals in Cambridge MA.

I absolutely meant no disrespect to IM and pediatrics; I myself is considering IM residency, then specializing. I would like to be matched to a competitive program at a top hospital, however, that's why I'm trying to make some use of the match list information.

Many people seem to choose Case and Tufts for their match lists, which I understand is a faulty approach, but despite the specialty and geographical bias of students, these 3 schools still seem to match exceptionally well for their generic "rank" and "reputation".

 

[MedPR]

Why do some schools perform much better than other schools within the same "tier"? For example:

- Tufts match extensively to Harvard (about 12% of class) as well as other top hospitals like Yale
- Dartmouth match almost 15% to Harvard and a good amount to top hospitals on both coasts
- Case Western matched 9 derm, 2 plastics, 8 ophtho, 15 ortho, 4 ENT, 5 urology, most of them at top hospitals.

Schools with similar research rankings and reputations don't seem to produce match lists that are quite as good are these 3.

Obviously because gpa/mcat directly correlate to what specialty you'll choose and your ability to match into that specialty.

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[Long Way to Go]

Why do some schools perform much better than other schools within the same "tier"? For example:

- Tufts match extensively to Harvard (about 12% of class) as well as other top hospitals like Yale
- Dartmouth match almost 15% to Harvard and a good amount to top hospitals on both coasts

Schools with similar research rankings and reputations don't seem to produce match lists that are quite as good are these 3.

People who went to good schools in Boston and New Hampshire matched to excellent schools in Boston and Connecticut? Shocking.

 

[samsunimomo]

- Dartmouth match almost 15% to Harvard and a good amount to top hospitals on both coasts

Dartmouth has a very long history with Harvard Med. Before the eighties, it used to offer a 2-year program that directly funneled its 3rd years to Harvard Med.

 

[H Y F R]

match lists are irrelevant when choosing a school. every student who has been half decent during medical school will match. these lists don't matter

 

[235009]

Dartmouth has a very long history with Harvard Med. Before the eighties, it used to offer a 2-year program that directly funneled its 3rd years to Harvard Med.

not sure what this has to do with anything

match lists are irrelevant when choosing a school. every student who has been half decent during medical school will match. these lists don't matter

when we're talking about US MD students the point isn't whether people match it's where they match.

 

[H Y F R]

not sure what this has to do with anything



when we're talking about US MD students the point isn't whether people match it's where they match.

I completely agree. I just contend that premeds and soon-to-be matriculants really shouldn't be focused on these match lists. There is a long way to go before these lists mean anything to a prospective student/resident.

 

[samsunimomo]

not sure what this has to do with anything



when we're talking about US MD students the point isn't whether people match it's where they match.

Ugh, which is why I shouldn't check SDN right after I wake up.

The point that I was trying to make is that some institutions have a very long history together, and residency programs have a good idea of the quality of MDs graduating from medical schools that have been around for a very, very long time.

 

[futureczar]

Why do some schools perform much better than other schools within the same "tier"? For example:

- Tufts match extensively to Harvard (about 12% of class) as well as other top hospitals like Yale
- Dartmouth match almost 15% to Harvard and a good amount to top hospitals on both coasts
- Case Western matched 9 derm, 2 plastics, 8 ophtho, 15 ortho, 4 ENT, 5 urology, most of them at top hospitals.

Schools with similar research rankings and reputations don't seem to produce match lists that are quite as good are these 3.

Tufts is located very close to Harvard. Therefore there is a proximity bias where most people will want to remain close. Therefore top students who want to remain close will go to harvard hospitals for residencies. Same reason Einstein has a good number of people that match into columbia/cornell/sinai/nyu even though some would argue that einstein isnt as 'reputable' as the other four. Cant ignore location.

Dartmouth is an ivy league school. Attracts top students who are interested in an ivy league name. Sends top students to top residencies.

Case is a nationally renowned and highly ranked school. Strong match list is to be expected.


As was mentioned before it is impossible to judge match lists. You never know who was the AOA interested in peds, and who was the average student interested in derm.

 

[SoulinNeed]

Medicine is such a hard field to judge. It's not like Law where things are so cut and dry. It's probably what's so great about it, but it can be frustrating to pre-med students who are so used to rankings defining everything. In medicine, though, a Ortho surgeon coming from a top program or a low one will generally get paid the same, depending on geographic location. As a result, especially when people are either in or nearing their 30's, people will choose these locations based on location, proximity to a significant other, potential areas of living, and how much research they want to do. It's just not easy to read.

For instance, this year's Rosalind Franklin match list was pretty damn good, with a few people at U Chicago/Northwestern/top CA programs/and a bunch of NE programs. Why? Because those locations represent where many of these students come from.

 

[nychila]

Would students at Einstein or Mount Sinai have an advantage to matching at NY Presbyterian or NYU compared to students who attend Tufts or Dartmouth? What about compared to students who are further away at Case or USC?

I understand that a good portion of most med classes voluntarily want to stay in their local city/area, but is it usually easier to match to hospitals in the city/area of one's med school?

 

[futureczar]

Would students at Einstein or Mount Sinai have an advantage to matching at NY Presbyterian or NYU compared to students who attend Tufts or Dartmouth? What about compared to students who are further away at Case or USC?

I understand that a good portion of most med classes voluntarily want to stay in their local city/area, but is it usually easier to match to hospitals in the city/area of one's med school?

People usually say that schools give you an advantage in the area that they are in (unless they are nationally recognized schools such as harvard or hopkins). However I think the vast majority of this 'advantage' is due to student preference, as you have stated. A part of it may be due to the connections of the home institution attendings (doctors at einstein might know more attendings in the ny area) but I think that Einstein and Sinai are well established enough to support an application anywhere in the country. Smaller/newer schools might have a better match in their surrounding area due to lack of national reputation.

However, I am sure the big 'why' questions will come up during residency interviews (why move across the country, who is your support network in the area, where will you live). If you cant justify wanting to move across the country then the residency might not pick you over someone who lives close to them and has an established support network. Just a thought.

 

[Law2Doc]

Would students at Einstein or Mount Sinai have an advantage to matching at NY Presbyterian or NYU compared to students who attend Tufts or Dartmouth? What about compared to students who are further away at Case or USC?

I understand that a good portion of most med classes voluntarily want to stay in their local city/area, but is it usually easier to match to hospitals in the city/area of one's med school?

There are some regional biases, particularly if it's not a "popular" destination city. The PD has to believe you would actually consider going there if they rank you. I doubt there's much of this kind of concern for a city like Boston.

But to further add a wrinkle, you have to realize that EVERY hospital has it's strong and weak programs. Even the world famous names. So MGH or Hopkins for one specialty wont be as competitive as MGH or Hopkins in another specialty, and frankly might be very low on most people's lists. There's a different hierarchy in each specialty, and you really only figure out which programs are better, worse, moving up, falling down, benign, malignant, etc once you sit down with a mentor during your third year of med school. I could make up a Match list that looks amazing to a premed but is actually pretty pedestrian. Also you have to subtract out prelim years -- eg a school may list a dozen people going to good places for IM, but six of them are only doing prelims.

And again, this all turns on where people want to go, not what they can get. Some in the top of every class choose IM, peds, Gen surg because that's what they enjoy.

 

[Got Em]

Does someone have Tuft's most recent match list?

I saw the 2008 and 2010 match lists and didn't see 12% matching into Harvard. I mean 12% to Harvard is insance; I'm just wondering if that's even possible. I did however, see many ortho matches and heard that 15/15 got in one year.

 

[Mako555]

would it be accurate to say that the majority of medical schools will do their part in adequately preparing you for applying to residencies? That once you are in one of these schools, the matching outcome is entirely dependent on the individual? And that if anything, a list of schools with poor matching outcomes would be much more useful (and much shorter) than a list of schools with good outcomes?

 

[dally1025]

would it be accurate to say that the majority of medical schools will do their part in adequately preparing you for applying to residencies? That once you are in one of these schools, the matching outcome is entirely dependent on the individual? And that if anything, a list of schools with poor matching outcomes would be much more useful (and much shorter) than a list of schools with good outcomes?

Yes. You are the rate limiting factor in where you match for residency. Yes, they will "teach" you a few things but how you do in med school is entirely dependent on you. How well you take standardized exams, how you are feeling the day you take the boards, how good your letters of recommendation are, etc. Everyone uses the same books and resources the first 2 years and takes similar exams. How well you learn the material is based entirely on you.

Pre-meds do not know how to look at a rank list accurately. Believe it or not there are programs with better reputations than Harvard in many specialities. For example, one of the most competitive and reputable programs in EM is Carolinas. The name won't impress grandma that much but it will impress EM head hunters. You might also be surprised to hear that people actually ranked programs based on fit and not on name. Just because a place has an awesome reputation doesn't mean you'll be happy or it's a good learning environment.

 

[MedPR]

match lists are irrelevant when choosing a school. every student who has been half decent during medical school will match. these lists don't matter

I think they matter, but there's more to it than just how many students matched to highly competitive programs. So I agree that it really doesn't matter for most of us because we don't know enough about eve program to make the match lists meaningful.

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[JFK90787]

I think the 'match to Harvard' criteria is more a reflection of geographic preference than anything else. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the New England schools have similar %s.

 

[nychila]

Does someone have Tuft's most recent match list?

I saw the 2008 and 2010 match lists and didn't see 12% matching into Harvard. I mean 12% to Harvard is insance; I'm just wondering if that's even possible. I did however, see many ortho matches and heard that 15/15 got in one year.

From those 2 particular years, each year: Tufts matched about 8 to MGH and BI Deaconess, several to the Brigham, and sometimes a few to Harvard affiliates such as Mt. Auburn, for a total of 20.

Even more impressive, last year, 19% of Dartmouth graduates went to Harvard affiliated hospitals for residency 😱

"Matching to Harvard" is of course a very vague indicator of match success. However, these schools also tend to send many of their students to other top programs in California, etc., more so than their peers.

 

[Geebeejay]

I think I'm regurgitating what is already being said, but what you consider to be a top residency program is not the same as what others consider a top program. Especially as premeds, we really don't know which programs are the "best" (which is a crappy word choice) and which programs are coveted in each specialty. I have a hard time finding match lists useful at all because I have no idea if the program a student matched into was his 1st, 2nd, 6th etc. choice.

 

[deleted127837]

It would be interesting to see how the "rankings" would fall if a school was ranked based on what level of program its students went to for residencies, as opposed to how much money the PhDs are bringing in. Y'know, rankings based on actually producing the most competitive physicians.

 

[dally1025]

"Matching to Harvard" is of course a very vague indicator of match success. However, these schools also tend to send many of their students to other top programs in California, etc., more so than their peers.

Med schools don't send their graduates to better programs. The students are the most important factor in where they match. Med schools that are more competitive will have students that generally have higher test scores; therefore, there will be some correlation to higher Step scores. Not because the education at Harvard or any other Ivy league is any better that State School U. Top graduates from my school have gone to some of the most competitive programs but some actually wanted to stay close to family instead of moving. Believe it or not there are more factors than a program's name when deciding how to rank a program. Looking at a match list means little especially as a pre-med. The only usefulness at looking at the match list is if you are considering specializing and everyone goes into primary care. Usually these schools make it known that their purpose is producing PCP's. At this point in your career you do not know enough about these programs to know what top programs are!