Fact or Fiction

[podpod]

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I wanted to get some clarification on some stuff my BS radar picked up on interviews.

1. BUSPM, TUSPM and NYCPM have inferior medical curriculums (either too easy to not enough coverage) in comparison to the DO affiliated programs.

2. To get a residency, clerkships/externships are the most important guideline most residency directors care about bc grades are hard to compare and boards are p/f.

3. AZPOD/DMU might be good at preclinical sciences, but what good is that if you arent exposed to actual patients to treat. Also if you are cramming for 2years straight, how can you remember everything, thus making the DO education nice, but not necessary (learning pod stuff is more important).

4. NYCPM is not expensive, in fact its cheaper or on par to the other schools. 24k/yr + 15-20k living expenses.

 

[hyperpodia]

I wanted to get some clarification on some stuff my BS radar picked up on interviews.

1. BUSPM, TUSPM and NYCPM have inferior medical curriculums (either too easy to not enough coverage) in comparison to the DO affiliated programs.

2. To get a residency, clerkships/externships are the most important guideline most residency directors care about bc grades are hard to compare and boards are p/f.

3. AZPOD/DMU might be good at preclinical sciences, but what good is that if you arent exposed to actual patients to treat. Also if you are cramming for 2years straight, how can you remember everything, thus making the DO education nice, but not necessary (learning pod stuff is more important).

4. NYCPM is not expensive, in fact its cheaper or on par to the other schools. 24k/yr + 15-20k living expenses.

1. True, if you want to be a DO, False if you want to be a pod, all schools will give what you need to be a pod

2. False, grades are important, class rank is important, some programs will not offer you clerkship if your are at the bottom of the class

3. AZPOD/DMU are favored because of their board pass rates. What is the point of seeing a thousand patients if you can not pass the boards

4. True, NYCPM is one of the most affordable schools, but be careful, you sometimes get what you pay for.

 

[podpod]

3. AZPOD/DMU are favored because of their board pass rates. What is the point of seeing a thousand patients if you can not pass the boards

4. True, NYCPM is one of the most affordable schools, but be careful, you sometimes get what you pay for.

3. on the flip side: whats the point of passing the boards if you dont get to treat any patients.

4. yea ive heard they take kids and run them thru knowing that many will end up dropping. but lets say you are a good student... are the professors teaching down to make classes easier?

 

[templepodnc]

1.) False- I cannot speak for all the schools but I interviewed and have friends at Scholl and DMU and I attend Temple. I would say that those 3 programs are all about a wash when it comes to basic sciences. It's hard to compare them as well. Board scores are a true gauge in my opinion because some schools will filter who they allow to take the boards the first time around to protect their "first time" board pass rate.


2.) Grades will get you in the door at programs, but for most programs once you are there for an externship, it's a whole new ballgame.

3.) Again, I have no knowledge of AZPOD but at DMU, you spend your entire 4th year doing externships so you are exposed to patients. You may not be exposed in the same manner as you would at Temple but you get plenty of patient interaction, you get out what you put in.

 

[jonwill]

DMU students see plenty of patients. I know some of the other schools really push their clinics but the reality is that when a school has half of the students, they only need to see half as many patients.

DMU's clinics start third year. The DMU clinic has busy and slow days. However, students see a lot of patients in satellite clinics throughout the state, not to mention their hospital rotations in Des Moines. Their entire 4th year is spent on externships. My first month out, I logged 450 patients.

Anyway, not sure what you've been told or by who but DMU students receive very strong clinical training. So I'd have to say FALSE!

 

[diabeticfootdr]

3. on the flip side: whats the point of passing the boards if you dont get to treat any patients.

I agree with what Jonwill said above. But I'll comment here.

If you can't pass the boards you'll never treat a patient. So that is priority. Secondly, you aren't supposed to get a ton of clinical experience in pod school, that is what residency is for. In pod school you need to learn how to perform an exam, a history and physical, and some basic technical skills. When you're learning these things, it will take you longer to see a patient and you may only see 2-3 patients a day. Alternatively, you could go to a pod school with high clinical volume and trim toenails on 10-12 patients a day and never have time to learn how to perform a thorough exam.

 

[PoddyMan]

If you can't pass the boards you'll never treat a patient. So that is priority. Secondly, you aren't supposed to get a ton of clinical experience in pod school, that is what residency is for. In pod school you need to learn how to perform an exam, a history and physical, and some basic technical skills. When you're learning these things, it will take you longer to see a patient and you may only see 2-3 patients a day. Alternatively, you could go to a pod school with high clinical volume and trim toenails on 10-12 patients a day and never have time to learn how to perform a thorough exam.

I could not have said it any better. Furthermore, high volume does not neccesarily equate with quality experience. What good is seeing lots of patients if:

1. you don't receive quality feedback from the clinical instructor;
2. the clinical instructor performs the treatment in order to see more patients in a shorter period of time;
3. the patients are seen in the clinical instructor's "private practice" where students are not present or, if they are, don't get to touch the patient;
4. other students (especially when there are 100 or more students per class) are seeing the same patient with you and only one gets to treat the patient.

The numbers quoted by schools don't always equate with the numbers you actually see.

 

[krabmas]

I have posted many times about NYCPM. My view of the school has changed since graduating and spending a couple of years as a resident.

1st - I am at my dream program for residency and I graduated from NYCPM.

2nd - Jonwill would have been successful at any pod school and so would have Diabeticfootdr. Some people will do well wherever they go because they are personally involved in their education and don't expect it to be handed to them.

NYCPM is the kind of school that if you are not personally involved in making sure that you get an education then you can definitely pass thru and just get by. You may also then not pass the boards - but whose fault is that? Schools that make you personally responsible for your own education by taking advantage of opportunity right in front of your face help turn you into a life long learner. NYCPM has all the resources necessary for you to succeed but they might not be placed in your hand. You will have to reach for them.

The clinics are definitely the highlight of the school. And not necessarily the school clinic. Lincoln Hospital is by far the best clinic to work in, especially if you speak spanish. You will work hard, but you get to decide the treatment and follow-up with the patients. You'll learn how to be thourough (sp?) and fast. There will be times when you think that seeing patients is more important to the school than academics.

There are many graduates that will still complain about the school. But there are people from all the schools that say how unhappy they are with there pod school (successful and not so successful).

When deciding which school - pick the one that you feel fits you and the way that you like to learn best. SDN is a good resource but try to listen only to the oppinions of the school from its own alumni. If you didn't go to that school you don't really know what it was like.

 

[podpod]

When deciding which school - pick the one that you feel fits you and the way that you like to learn best.

i think what got me all confused was all the talk on this forum about classes with DO students. Kept making it seem that the education is inferior on the east coast. But i dug deep in this forum and found out that at TUSPM, the professors from the MD school teach the same classes at the DPM program identically.

what hit me the most was that ur only as good as what u intake and that all schools r gonna give u a good taste of your preclinical sciences.

 

[smartman716]

krabmas,

He oido iguales. Usted habla la verdad.

I have posted many times about NYCPM. My view of the school has changed since graduating and spending a couple of years as a resident.

1st - I am at my dream program for residency and I graduated from NYCPM.

2nd - Jonwill would have been successful at any pod school and so would have Diabeticfootdr. Some people will do well wherever they go because they are personally involved in their education and don't expect it to be handed to them.

NYCPM is the kind of school that if you are not personally involved in making sure that you get an education then you can definitely pass thru and just get by. You may also then not pass the boards - but whose fault is that? Schools that make you personally responsible for your own education by taking advantage of opportunity right in front of your face help turn you into a life long learner. NYCPM has all the resources necessary for you to succeed but they might not be placed in your hand. You will have to reach for them.

The clinics are definitely the highlight of the school. And not necessarily the school clinic. Lincoln Hospital is by far the best clinic to work in, especially if you speak spanish. You will work hard, but you get to decide the treatment and follow-up with the patients. You'll learn how to be thourough (sp?) and fast. There will be times when you think that seeing patients is more important to the school than academics.

There are many graduates that will still complain about the school. But there are people from all the schools that say how unhappy they are with there pod school (successful and not so successful).

When deciding which school - pick the one that you feel fits you and the way that you like to learn best. SDN is a good resource but try to listen only to the oppinions of the school from its own alumni. If you didn't go to that school you don't really know what it was like.

 

[PoddyMan]

NYCPM is the kind of school that if you are not personally involved in making sure that you get an education then you can definitely pass thru and just get by. You may also then not pass the boards - but whose fault is that?

First of all, this comment is not necessarily directed at NYCPM, but to all schools with low attrition rates and board pass rates that are average or lower: Did you know that there are a number of DPMs out there who cannot practice because they never passed the part 1 (and/or part 2) board exam? I know of some who have taken the part 1 exam a multitude of times and have not yet passed! Whose fault is it that the student continued into 3rd year, 4th year, then graduated, but can't practice? You can't blame it all on the student.

Schools that make you personally responsible for your own education by taking advantage of opportunity right in front of your face help turn you into a life long learner. NYCPM has all the resources necessary for you to succeed but they might not be placed in your hand. You will have to reach for them.

Students shouldn't be expected to become life-long learners on their own. A curriculum should be designed where faculty are responsible and provide appropriate instructional methods (not just pushing content at students through lectures), provide sufficient feedback (during clinical patient encounters as well), and construct assessments that don't test only rote memorization.

On another thread (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=7992230#post7992230#postcount=14), a comment was made condemning schools for high attrition rates and resultant high pass rates:

I wouldn't put so much thought on board scores. It is important that a school does well but don't be fooled. Some schools will not allow you to take the boards at the first scheduled time if they don't think you are up to par b/c they don't want to hurt their board pass rate. Also, if a school is accepting 100 kids but half flunk out and they only have 50 take the boards I wouldn't be too impressed because they have such a high attrition rate.

A student cannot take the part 1 exam unless they have satisfactorily completed all basic science courses. Therefore, the only way a school could prevent a student from taking the exam is if they did not pass all of these courses. Maybe some schools would have a higher board exam pass rate if students weren't allowed to "pass thru and just get by". Some deans have the philosophy that, if a student was good enough to be accepted, then they deserve the right to get a DPM degree, whatever the cost. BTW, there are no schools that have a 50% attrition rate. But those schools with higher than "average" attrition rates have them because the curriculum is more challenging, and if students don't make the grade, they're cut. I would believe that the intent of a podiatric medical school having a curriculum comparable to allopathic and osteopathic (Vision 2015) would also be one that doesn't allow students to "pass thru and just get by".

 

[templepodnc]

Therefore, the only way a school could prevent a student from taking the exam is if they did not pass all of these courses.

I never said the school wouldn't allow them to take it. I said the school will not allow them to take the first sitting but instead have them take the october sitting. This way, the school is able to protect the "first time" board pass rate. I just finished my first year of pod school so I just recently went through the whole interview process and what I am saying is not speculation but fact from what I was told from the school on my interview day when asked.

Whose fault is it that the student continued into 3rd year, 4th year, then graduated, but can't practice

The student. Why would you continue on a path that is costing you 30k a year in debt when you know you aren't qualified. If you are taking the boards and continue to fail it is up to the student to realize they aren't made for it. If you are saying schools are wrong for not helping students let go then I would agree. But there are thousands of people out there who are more than willing to take your money, sometimes you have to be the responsible one and realize when its time to give it up.

Students shouldn't be expected to become life-long learners on their own

Why? If you don't have the desire to be the best you can and reach your full potential, it shouldn't be anyone else's job to hold your hand.

BTW, there are no schools that have a 50% attrition rate.

During my interview process I talked with a school that stated when specifically asked that one class they had began with 70 students and then that graduating class was 40 students. So excuse me, not 50% but either way its to dang high. That reflects on the quality of the students they are admitting, not their "challenging" course work.

 

[PoddyMan]

I never said the school wouldn't allow them to take it. I said the school will not allow them to take the first sitting but instead have them take the october sitting. This way, the school is able to protect the "first time" board pass rate. I just finished my first year of pod school so I just recently went through the whole interview process and what I am saying is not speculation but fact from what I was told from the school on my interview day when asked.

If a student passed all their courses, the school cannot prevent them from signing up to take the exam in July. Unless the DEAN (NOT the admissions director, faculty member, or student) of a school told you that he/she will not allow one of their own students to take the exam, then what you heard was speculation. Believe me when I say that I know the interview process that you went through. If a dean says that ANOTHER school does it, it is speculation.

The student. Why would you continue on a path that is costing you 30k a year in debt when you know you aren't qualified. If you are taking the boards and continue to fail it is up to the student to realize they aren't made for it. If you are saying schools are wrong for not helping students let go then I would agree. But there are thousands of people out there who are more than willing to take your money, sometimes you have to be the responsible one and realize when its time to give it up.

Students assume that they ARE qualified if the school allows them to "pass thru and just get by". Take my word, it's not as simple a decision for a student to make as you make it out to be. After finding out that he/she failed it the 1st time, the student has already paid 3rd-year tuition and has been in 3rd-year classes/clinic. So, why should a student drop out after one failure? He/she may not retake it until becoming a 4th-year student, and the cycle repeats itself. So, you end up with a DPM who cannot practice. And, after spending all that money and time, he/she will continue taking the exam until passing.

Why? If you don't have the desire to be the best you can and reach your full potential, it shouldn't be anyone else's job to hold your hand.

No one ever mentioned holding someone's hand. Desire is one thing. The appropriate environment is another. Check out the education literature. Nothing new.

During my interview process I talked with a school that stated when specifically asked that one class they had began with 70 students and then that graduating class was 40 students. So excuse me, not 50% but either way its to dang high. That reflects on the quality of the students they are admitting, not their "challenging" course work.

I bet that if you looked at the average GPA and MCAT scores at the school(s) with a higher attrition rate, you will find they are at least equal or higher than those with low attrition. Therefore, it's not the quality of the student that's the issue at the high attrition rate schools. In contrast, it's the low attrition rate at the schools with lower than average board pass rates that indicates low quality students are being accepted and allowed to "pass thru and just get by". Does it really make sense that if all students are good enough to pass all basic medical science courses to take the board exam that they have trouble passing the board exam?

 

[templepodnc]

Students assume that they ARE qualified if the school allows them to "pass thru and just get by". Take my word, it's not as simple a decision for a student to make as you make it out to be. After finding out that he/she failed it the 1st time, the student has already paid 3rd-year tuition and has been in 3rd-year classes/clinic. So, why should a student drop out after one failure? He/she may not retake it until becoming a 4th-year student, and the cycle repeats itself. So, you end up with a DPM who cannot practice. And, after spending all that money and time, he/she will continue taking the exam until passing.

If the student takes the exam in July and fails, they generally get the scores back in about a month. Another exam is offered again in October, while you would still be a 3rd year student. Also, the exam is designed to test whether or not you are a minimally competent student. If you fail, you receive a copy of your score with a breakdown of how you did. If you failed horribly then I would say that person should have a real gut check to as why they should continue. If you failed but only had a weakness in a minor area or two that messed you up, then you can re-study and prepare for the october exam. No student can take Part II until Part I is passed now. Bottom line, you get 2 shots at Part 1 before you are a 4th year.

Does it really make sense that if all students are good enough to pass all basic medical science courses to take the board exam that they have trouble passing the board exam

Sometimes to an extent. There are students at schools who can scrap by with old exams and sit for the boards. If a student is not truly learning the material but always constantly cramming and studying old tests, I could see how they could potentially run into some problems with the boards.

I bet that if you looked at the average GPA and MCAT scores at the school(s) with a higher attrition rate, you will find they are at least equal or higher than those with low attrition. Therefore, it's not the quality of the student that's the issue at the high attrition rate schools. In contrast, it's the low attrition rate at the schools with lower than average board pass rates that indicates low quality students are being accepted and allowed to "pass thru and just get by".

Valid point. Not always true though but I agree with you.

 

[podpod]

so then its def safe to say all schools will offer you a good education, but not all schools will let u slide thru their program.

 

[PoddyMan]

If the student takes the exam in July and fails, they generally get the scores back in about a month. Another exam is offered again in October, while you would still be a 3rd year student. Also, the exam is designed to test whether or not you are a minimally competent student. If you fail, you receive a copy of your score with a breakdown of how you did. If you failed horribly then I would say that person should have a real gut check to as why they should continue. If you failed but only had a weakness in a minor area or two that messed you up, then you can re-study and prepare for the october exam. No student can take Part II until Part I is passed now. Bottom line, you get 2 shots at Part 1 before you are a 4th year.

I am well aware of the process. (BTW, some students will not retake the exam in October due to ongoing classes/tests and wait until July the following year as a 4th-year student when all other class work has finished. This may not be what you would do, but its reality.)

I have had students show me how horribly they have performed on the board exam; I have pointed out the options, including considering another career. (BTW, it is not uncommon for students who fail only one area of the exam to fail another area the next time. I see it happen time after time.)

The point is that it is rare for a 3rd-year student, having gone this far, to simply pack it up and leave after paying 3 years of tuition and putting in 3 years of (successful?) school time. Most students at this point gamble on the fact that, if they were able to get this far, they should be able to (eventually) pass the board exam. Maybe you, templepodnc, would call it a day; reality has shown that most students gamble on eventually passing. I've seen it all too often.

Again, once past the 2nd year and into the 3rd year, very few students will give it up. In fact, the ones I've seen give it up after 3 years have been successful academically and just didn't like podiatric medicine (after being in the clinical arena), which is why it is SO IMPORTANT that pre-pods shadow at least a few different DPMs.

So, should schools allow students to progress when they "pass thru and just get by"? Which brings us back around to my original comments... (see previous posts).

 

[PoddyMan]

so then its def safe to say all schools will offer you a good education, but not all schools will let u slide thru their program.

To summarize: all schools will offer you an educational experience; some are spoon-fed, others are not. Some schools have higher expectations for their students, some do not. Some students can achieve successfully in both environments, some cannot. Some experiences require students to make the best they can of an experience and they are successful. Some experiences are well-designed and can only improve upon a student's experience; students who make the best of this experience are successful and 🙂 campers!

 

[Dmayor22]

Poddyman-

In your experience, what schools do you feel spoon feed their students?

 

[PoddyMan]

Poddyman-
In your experience, what schools do you feel spoon feed their students?

Spoon-feed = given little or no opportunity to act or think for oneself; to treat (another) in a way that discourages independent thought or action; to deliver information in as basic a manner as possible.
(www.dictionary.infoplease.com; www.thefreedictionary.com; en.wiktionary.org)

Any school where courses are primarily teacher-centered and lecture-based, with assessment that is testing rote memory of content by multiple-choice or true/false examination.

 

[podpod]

Any school where courses are primarily teacher-centered and lecture-based, with assessment that is testing rote memory of content by multiple-choice or true/false examination.

sounds like every preclinical lecture course to me! guess its the easiest way to grade so many kids

 

[PoddyMan]

sounds like every preclinical lecture course to me! guess its the easiest way to grade so many kids

Schools vary in the degree of spoon-feeding. You should easily be able to distinguish from undergraduate school (and even high school) which courses are purely lecture with little to know student involvement (spoon-fed) from those that use differing instructional methods that encourage active participation by the students. It's not like this is something new. In fact, you hit the nail on the head when you said that spoon-feeding is easier. The main problem is that faculty don't want to make the time to design instruction that is learner-centered. A lot more work; but isn't that what your tuition dollars are paying for? If all you need is content to memorize, one could buy a textbook and probably be able to pass the same exam. You don't need a teacher in class to lecture at you to get the content.

Some schools even have clinical courses taught this way in place of an external clinical rotation. One podiatric school is attempting to eliminate it altogether. The educational paradigm of switching from teacher-centered to learning-centered education has been going on for nearly 40 years and has been slow to develop but has caught on in allopathic & osteopathic programs; podiatric programs need to catch up.