Feasibility of Becoming Dean of Admissions and Changing the URM System

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swashbuckaroo

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Gandhi said: "Be the change you wish to see..."

My wish is for a change in the admissions system. As an incoming M1, I've entertained thoughts of going into the more administrative sides of things in medicine, such as being on the admissions committee/eventually dean of admissions. From what I've seen around the forum, a common theme/comparison here is underprivileged ORM vs privileged URM during the admissions process.

I guess my question is: How feasible would it be to change the URM based system of admissions into one of purely merit and socioeconomic status at one particular school, completely disregarding one's race? I know some Adcoms have said that this is tough, considering the LCME guidelines on diversity, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I know it's a lot to ask, but if you guys can set your personal differences aside for a moment and offer your thoughts about my hypothetical, that would be wonderful! Please try and keep the discussion away from the overdone URM debate and more on the feasibility of this idea.

*Disclaimer--It's almost inevitable that someone is going to call me out for trolling, so I just want to say this ahead of time: I'm not. I've actually considered the numerous implications of something like this and discussed many facets of this idea with my colleagues in health care over the last year or so.
 
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What do you want from us? You're asking if you can be on the admissions committee and make changes? Yeah...why wouldn't you be able to do that as an attending...the question is are you going to want to after the years of suffering you will go through becoming an attending. Medicine changes you my friend...what you want now is NOT what you will want 10 years from now, that you can believe.
 
What do you want from us? You're asking if you can be on the admissions committee and make changes? Yeah...why wouldn't you be able to do that as an attending...the question is are you going to want to after the years of suffering you will go through becoming an attending. Medicine changes you my friend...what you want now is NOT what you will want 10 years from now, that you can believe.

Thanks for the words of advice. I guess two main things I'm concerned about are the ability to do this, and possible ways to make a change.
 
Lol... Race IS an indicator of socioeconomic status, friend. Unfortunately for many of the underserved populations requiring so much medical care, they have an inherent fear or distrust of the medical community who are viewed as white elites that are out of touch. This further exacerbates their health conditions as they don't seek out treatment which, as you likely know, increases the cost for medical care in the US (more acute ER visits than primary, secondary, and tertiary preventive visits). White males (yes, I am one so I don't have an agenda to help myself) that have a GPA and MCAT above the 95th percentile will still never reach the communities that an underrepresented minority physician could reach, even if that means the GPA and MCAT need to be in the 50th percentile to attain the minority physicians.
 
Ghandi said: "Be the change you wish to see..."

No, that was Gandhi.

swashbuckaroo said:
My wish is for a change in the admissions system. As an incoming M1, I've entertained thoughts of going into the more administrative sides of things in medicine, such as being on the admissions committee/eventually dean of admissions. From what I've seen around the forum, a common theme/comparison here is underprivileged ORM vs privileged URM during the admissions process.

I guess my question is: How feasible would it be to change the URM based system of admissions into one of purely merit and socioeconomic status at one particular school, completely disregarding one's race? I know some Adcoms have said that this is tough, considering the LCME guidelines on diversity, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

The LCME standards stipulate that schools have effective policies "to achieve mission-appropriate diversity outcomes..." In other words, the schools themselves define what groups they consider to be value-added (black, hispanic, veteran, LGBTQ, etc.) and then have to demonstrate what they are doing to attract and retain members of these groups. If you want to enact the changes you seek, the most important step will be convincing your institution that its value-added groups should be defined by socioeconomic status and your definition of merit, and that race should not be considered. Then you would have to convince your admissions committee of the same, and get the committee's blessing on developing a screening rubric that prioritizes socioeconomic status and your definition of merit. Then you will have to decide how you want to determine someone's socioeconomic status and how you will determine merit (the old highest achievement vs. distance traveled debate).

Sound feasible?
 
I think your goals are way too low. You really need to put all of your effort into being a SCOTUS justice, and then make sure to be horribly disappointed in yourself if you end up as anything less.
 
Ghandi said: "Be the change you wish to see..."

My wish is for a change in the admissions system. As an incoming M1, I've entertained thoughts of going into the more administrative sides of things in medicine, such as being on the admissions committee/eventually dean of admissions. From what I've seen around the forum, a common theme/comparison here is underprivileged ORM vs privileged URM during the admissions process.

I guess my question is: How feasible would it be to change the URM based system of admissions into one of purely merit and socioeconomic status at one particular school, completely disregarding one's race? I know some Adcoms have said that this is tough, considering the LCME guidelines on diversity, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I know it's a lot to ask, but if you guys can set your personal differences aside for a moment and offer your thoughts about my hypothetical, that would be wonderful! Please try and keep the discussion away from the overdone URM debate and more on the feasibility of this idea.

*Disclaimer--It's almost inevitable that someone is going to call me out for trolling, so I just want to say this ahead of time: I'm not. I've actually considered the numerous implications of something like this and discussed many facets of this idea with my colleagues in health care over the last year or so.
Its not gonna happen. If the number of URMs drop in a school, there is a high likelihood of the school being placed on probation by the LCME. Once your school is placed on probation, it can hurt the quality of the incoming applicant pool who perceives the school as bad and hurt funding from outside sources (government grants, alumni etc.). Essentially, you will be putting yourself at great risk for little reward. Also, at some schools, there are some minority faculty on board and non-minority faculty that sympathize with URM admissions. Basically, you will be making yourself an enemy of quite a few people and will mostly be fired before you even get to the top. I can tell your young and don't understand politics what so ever. Lastly, I think people need to understand there are very qualified minorities out there. If you implemented your policy at Harvard or Vanderbilt, the same people would most likely still get in. I know black male right now who is attending Harvard who got a 40 on his MCAT. Some of the same people who give your argument end up getting humbled very quickly by medical school and residency. Take one step at a time.
 
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Ghandi said: "Be the change you wish to see..."

My wish is for a change in the admissions system. As an incoming M1, I've entertained thoughts of going into the more administrative sides of things in medicine, such as being on the admissions committee/eventually dean of admissions. From what I've seen around the forum, a common theme/comparison here is underprivileged ORM vs privileged URM during the admissions process.

I guess my question is: How feasible would it be to change the URM based system of admissions into one of purely merit and socioeconomic status at one particular school, completely disregarding one's race? I know some Adcoms have said that this is tough, considering the LCME guidelines on diversity, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I know it's a lot to ask, but if you guys can set your personal differences aside for a moment and offer your thoughts about my hypothetical, that would be wonderful! Please try and keep the discussion away from the overdone URM debate and more on the feasibility of this idea.

*Disclaimer--It's almost inevitable that someone is going to call me out for trolling, so I just want to say this ahead of time: I'm not. I've actually considered the numerous implications of something like this and discussed many facets of this idea with my colleagues in health care over the last year or so.

A lot of people are commenting on the flaws of this. I'm curious, what would be the benefit of such a change? i.e. What would erasing race as a factor in admission do that would improve the medical student class or improve the medical field?

The reason I ask that is because there are a number of benefits to having race as a factor in admission. A racially diverse class enhances the cultural diversity of a class, which is helpful in gaining a better understanding of diverse patient populations. It also leads to a greater diversity in the work force, which as others have mentioned is needed to serve the patient populations. This list can go on infinitum but I'd like to hear more about why you think changing the influence of URM would improve. FWIW I have not met a student in my class regardless of race, gender, creed that was not academically qualified to be in the class.
 
If you have the most "qualified" doctors, but the patients don't benefit from seeing them, are they really the best doctors?

Quick google search found me this book.
... black doctors served black patients at six times the rate of other physicians.
A related group of studies found that black patients tended to have more positive interactions with black physicians."

I'm pretty sure I also read somewhere (an article posted by @Goro maybe?) that black patients can manage their diabetes better when they have black physicians.

Think about choosing a class of the "best" physicians when 100% of them want to become surgeons, and no one will do any other specialty. It doesn't actually serve the population's needs.
 
Speaking as someone with some adcom experience, if *I* were the Dean of Admissions, I would want to eliminate all legacy invites. I've never understood why people get all bent out of shape about diversity initiatives, but think it's totally fine for med schools to dole out courtesy invites to the children of wealthy alums, even if their apps are embarrassingly subpar. Of course, adopting my policy would mean the end of donations to the med school, which is why it won't ever happen. But that doesn't change the fact that legacy invites are grossly unfair and serve no social purpose whatsoever beyond fundraising.
 
If I could give this 1000 "likes", I would!!!

Speaking as someone with some adcom experience, if *I* were the Dean of Admissions, I would want to eliminate all legacy invites. I've never understood why people get all bent out of shape about diversity initiatives, but think it's totally fine for med schools to dole out courtesy invites to the children of wealthy alums, even if their apps are embarrassingly subpar. Of course, adopting my policy would mean the end of donations to the med school, which is why it won't ever happen. But that doesn't change the fact that legacy invites are grossly unfair and serve no social purpose whatsoever beyond fundraising.
 
Speaking as someone with some adcom experience, if *I* were the Dean of Admissions, I would want to eliminate all legacy invites. I've never understood why people get all bent out of shape about diversity initiatives, but think it's totally fine for med schools to dole out courtesy invites to the children of wealthy alums, even if their apps are embarrassingly subpar. Of course, adopting my policy would mean the end of donations to the med school, which is why it won't ever happen. But that doesn't change the fact that legacy invites are grossly unfair and serve no social purpose whatsoever beyond fundraising.
I also dislike the idea of selling spots in what is promoted as a meritocracy
 
Speaking as someone with some adcom experience, if *I* were the Dean of Admissions, I would want to eliminate all legacy invites. I've never understood why people get all bent out of shape about diversity initiatives, but think it's totally fine for med schools to dole out courtesy invites to the children of wealthy alums, even if their apps are embarrassingly subpar. Of course, adopting my policy would mean the end of donations to the med school, which is why it won't ever happen. But that doesn't change the fact that legacy invites are grossly unfair and serve no social purpose whatsoever beyond fundraising.

You answered your own quesiton lol
 
You're aiming too low. You'll need to be the Dean of the med school, not merely the Admissions dean, if you want to get even close to doing away with URM admissions policies.

You'll probably have a lot of explaining to do to the University's Provost/Chancellor/CEO/President etc. as well.

There are some 850000+ doctors in the US.

There are ~140 MD school and ~30 DO schools.

The odds of you becoming Dean are thus 0.02%. Play the Lotto instead.






Ghandi said: "Be the change you wish to see..."

My wish is for a change in the admissions system. As an incoming M1, I've entertained thoughts of going into the more administrative sides of things in medicine, such as being on the admissions committee/eventually dean of admissions. From what I've seen around the forum, a common theme/comparison here is underprivileged ORM vs privileged URM during the admissions process.

I guess my question is: How feasible would it be to change the URM based system of admissions into one of purely merit and socioeconomic status at one particular school, completely disregarding one's race? I know some Adcoms have said that this is tough, considering the LCME guidelines on diversity, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I know it's a lot to ask, but if you guys can set your personal differences aside for a moment and offer your thoughts about my hypothetical, that would be wonderful! Please try and keep the discussion away from the overdone URM debate and more on the feasibility of this idea.

*Disclaimer--It's almost inevitable that someone is going to call me out for trolling, so I just want to say this ahead of time: I'm not. I've actually considered the numerous implications of something like this and discussed many facets of this idea with my colleagues in health care over the last year or so.
 
You answered your own quesiton lol
I know. It was a rhetorical question. But I'm serious about pointing out the inconsistency in the thought process here. If there's any adcom practice that is more antithetical to a meritocracy (and to class diversity too, FWIW) than extending legacy invites, I don't know what.
 
What would erasing race as a factor in admission do that would improve the medical student class or improve the medical field?

It would potentially create more classes that are statistically better than other classes in terms of MCAT scores and other scores/factors which don't intrinsically measure the quality of the future doctor.

If you have the most "qualified" doctors, but the patients don't benefit from seeing them, are they really the best doctors?

Quick google search found me this book.

Yes. How good a physician is at what they do and their medical knowledge/abilities should not be measured by whether or not a patient is willing to see them or whether they can see one patient and not another. By that logic you could argue that a NP who practices in a rural setting is a better doc than the physician who doesn't see rural patients because he/she doesn't have access to them, which is just dumb.
 
It would potentially create more classes that are statistically better than other classes in terms of MCAT scores and other scores/factors which don't intrinsically measure the quality of the future doctor.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the use of race as an admission factor leads to statistically worse classes? You're implying highly qualified applicants are being overpassed merely to let less qualified URM in. Med schools aren't lacking qualified applicants from any race.

Maybe an adcom member can comment, but I don't imagine less qualified URM are being admitted over ORM. Rather, with two equally qualified candidates - a URM offers the benefit of racial diversity to a class. But remember, race is not the only source of diversity in an applicant.
 
Do you have any evidence to suggest that the use of race as an admission factor leads to statistically worse classes? You're implying highly qualified applicants are being overpassed merely to let less qualified URM in. Med schools aren't lacking qualified applicants from any race.

Maybe an adcom member can comment, but I don't imagine less qualified URM are being admitted over ORM. Rather, with two equally qualified candidates - a URM offers the benefit of racial diversity to a class. But remember, race is not the only source of diversity in an applicant.
Giving an admission boost to a somewhat less qualified applicant is exactly the purpose of the URM admission policy...I know a lot of people still like the policy but how can you seriously be pretending to not know that?
 
Giving an admission boost to a somewhat less qualified applicant is exactly the purpose of the URM admission policy...I know a lot of people still like the policy but how can you seriously be pretending to not know that?

subjective experience with well qualified URM students at various medical schools.
 
I guess my question is: How feasible would it be to change the URM based system of admissions into one of purely merit and socioeconomic status at one particular school, completely disregarding one's race? I know some Adcoms have said that this is tough, considering the LCME guidelines on diversity, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Some URM are EO-1 and EO-2 and so would be recruited to your school on the basis of low SES. With plenty of scholarship money you could recruit more than your share of the wealthy, high stats URM thus ensuring a proportion of URM in the class to keep LCME off your back and enough to balance out the lower stats and poorer performance generally observed in the EO-1 and EO-2 populations.
 
Yes. How good a physician is at what they do and their medical knowledge/abilities should not be measured by whether or not a patient is willing to see them or whether they can see one patient and not another. By that logic you could argue that a NP who practices in a rural setting is a better doc than the physician who doesn't see rural patients because he/she doesn't have access to them, which is just dumb.
State schools select state applicants to serve that population. Rural states try to select applicants from rural areas specifically because they're willing to stay in those areas. For a given patient, if the doctor won't treat them, then it doesn't matter how good the doctor is.
 
subjective experience with well qualified URM students at various medical schools.
you are kind of creating a straw man....lots and lots of URM applicants are completely competitive with every other student in their class. Some URM students needed the URM preference (much like some legacies are ninjas who don't need dad's connections....but some basically buy an interview)
 
I'm going to leave my own thoughts on this topic out of the conversation for the time being, because I want to know why you would want to do this. As someone who hasn't even begun medical school yet, what issues could you have already with the makeup of your class/school? Why does the thought of increasing the number of minorities in medical schools bother you? What do you think would be gained in medical schools by focusing solely on socioeconomic status?

As much as I have to say on this subject, I don't believe I can engage in a fruitful discussion with you until you make it clear why you feel this is a necessary change to make.
 
You're aiming too low. You'll need to be the Dean of the med school, not merely the Admissions dean, if you want to get even close to doing away with URM admissions policies.

You'll probably have a lot of explaining to do to the University's Provost/Chancellor/CEO/President etc. as well.

There are some 850000+ doctors in the US.

There are ~140 MD school and ~30 DO schools.

The odds of you becoming Dean are thus 0.02%. Play the Lotto instead.

That's a little deceptive. A small fraction of the 850,000 have any interest in that position.

Still more than enough to make the competition pretty brutal given the starting population though.

Also if you can buy me a lotto ticket with a 0.02% chance of winning, I'll take it 🙂
 
Someone with a 3.3 GPA and MCAT of 26 can still handle a medical school curriculum from Albany to Yale; JAB to Harvard or Miami. I'd like to see a better definition of "qualified".


Giving an admission boost to a somewhat less qualified applicant is exactly the purpose of the URM admission policy...I know a lot of people still like the policy but how can you seriously be pretending to not know that?
 
Someone with a 3.3 GPA and MCAT of 26 can still handle a medical school curriculum from Albany to Yale; JAB to Harvard or Miami. I'd like to see a better definition of "qualified".
I'm referring to less qualified than the ORM applicant that doesn't get that seat.... not less qualified than minimally competent
 
Do you have any evidence to suggest that the use of race as an admission factor leads to statistically worse classes? You're implying highly qualified applicants are being overpassed merely to let less qualified URM in. Med schools aren't lacking qualified applicants from any race.

Maybe an adcom member can comment, but I don't imagine less qualified URM are being admitted over ORM. Rather, with two equally qualified candidates - a URM offers the benefit of racial diversity to a class. But remember, race is not the only source of diversity in an applicant.

I'm not talking about actual quality of the applicants or how good of a physician they will be, I'm talking about the concept of merit being based on measurements such as MCAT scores and GPA. Look at all of the statistically mediocre/bad medical schools. They are the schools that take a certain kind of applicant such as URMs, people from rural areas that claim to want to practice there, or some state schools. Less qualified URMs are accepted to certain schools over more qualified ORMs all the time at many schools. Just compare the stats of schools like Howard or Meharry (which apparently considers a 24 MCAT and 3.3 GPA competitive) to the med schools that don't have a URM mission and the statistical differences are obvious.

Once again, I'm not saying that those schools train subpar physicians, or that their students don't deserve to be in med school because their stats are lower. I'm just pointing out that using the MCAT/GPA criteria that is generally seen as the initial gold standard, URMs can be given a huge handicap at some institutions. I'd also add that this isn't a point that is limited to race. Other factors like geographic location or relationships/connections can also have the same occurrence. I honestly don't have a problem with it most of the time (other than those accepted because their legacies or they have family that works there), but saying it doesn't exist is just incorrect.


State schools select state applicants to serve that population. Rural states try to select applicants from rural areas specifically because they're willing to stay in those areas. For a given patient, if the doctor won't treat them, then it doesn't matter how good the doctor is.

The bolded statement is a completely different argument than saying that a physician isn't one of "the best" because they don't see those patients, which is what your previous post inferred. Accessibility to a physician and the quality of that physician are two completely different parameters, and I don't think a physician's quality should be determined by whether or not a specific patient has access to him or her.
 
Ghandi said: "Be the change you wish to see..."

My wish is for a change in the admissions system. As an incoming M1, I've entertained thoughts of going into the more administrative sides of things in medicine, such as being on the admissions committee/eventually dean of admissions. From what I've seen around the forum, a common theme/comparison here is underprivileged ORM vs privileged URM during the admissions process.

I guess my question is: How feasible would it be to change the URM based system of admissions into one of purely merit and socioeconomic status at one particular school, completely disregarding one's race? I know some Adcoms have said that this is tough, considering the LCME guidelines on diversity, but I'd love to hear your thoughts.

I know it's a lot to ask, but if you guys can set your personal differences aside for a moment and offer your thoughts about my hypothetical, that would be wonderful! Please try and keep the discussion away from the overdone URM debate and more on the feasibility of this idea.

*Disclaimer--It's almost inevitable that someone is going to call me out for trolling, so I just want to say this ahead of time: I'm not. I've actually considered the numerous implications of something like this and discussed many facets of this idea with my colleagues in health care over the last year or so.
Chances? Almost zero.
 
White males (yes, I am one so I don't have an agenda to help myself) that have a GPA and MCAT above the 95th percentile will still never reach the communities that an underrepresented minority physician could reach, even if that means the GPA and MCAT need to be in the 50th percentile to attain the minority physicians.
lots of black doctors doing quite well practicing in bridgeport, CT, durham, NC, and Barrington, IL. So please just stop.
 
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when ur running for administrative positions lemme know. ill give u a vote as long as your position is to base admissions on meritocracy. the idea of reverse racism such as against asian members or leeway for so called "URM" to this day is a very repulsive idea to me.
but i have grown older and wiser and recognized some fights are not meant for me. im happy to give my vote to u to push for the appropraite changes so that there can be improved equality in the medical field
 
Because they're less capable in terms of work ethic, knowledge etc. Is this a serious question?

I think he is being sarcastic and that other guy is just being a silly premed. Really no logic to their thought process
 
I'm going to leave my own thoughts on this topic out of the conversation for the time being, because I want to know why you would want to do this. As someone who hasn't even begun medical school yet, what issues could you have already with the makeup of your class/school? Why does the thought of increasing the number of minorities in medical schools bother you? What do you think would be gained in medical schools by focusing solely on socioeconomic status?

As much as I have to say on this subject, I don't believe I can engage in a fruitful discussion with you until you make it clear why you feel this is a necessary change to make.

Hey there, I appreciate the response. To answer your question, I feel that it's necessary to focus purely on academic credentials and socioeconomic status during the admissions process because it's in my opinion the best way to ensure physician quality while evening the playing field for those who truly need it aka the socioeconomically disadvantaged. A policy like the one I'm proposing shouldn't have any conflict with ensuring that minorities be included in a medical school class, since like many have pointed out, many times race and socioeconomic status are intertwined. For example, an underprivileged African American applicant will still have the benefit of an even playing field--it simply wouldn't be because of his/her race, but because of the obstacles he/she had to overcome. My problem with the system currently is that a middle class URM can still have an unnecessary advantage over an ORM from an impoverished community.

To address a few of the points brought up by some who have responded:

Point: If this system was implemented, few would serve in underserved/culturally diverse areas, because stellar medical students tend to shy away from that.
Response: Med students who have experienced growing up disadvantaged will most likely also gravitate towards giving back to impoverished communities. Furthermore, even IF the system was completely based on academic performance/credentials, eventually some students wouldn't be as "stellar" compared to their peers based on the bell curve principle. Those students will eventually have to settle for less competitive specialties, ensuring that we wouldn't have a shortage of primary care physicians. Example: If medical schools only took 4.0/35s, eventually some of those 4.0/35s wouldn't be able to outperform their peers. Residency spots for hyper competitive specialties remain constant for the most part, so some of those 4.0/35s would eventually need to go into less competitive ones.

Point: Studies show that a 3.3/26 is enough to handle medical school curriculum. A 3.3/26 applicant will graduate medical school just like his 3.9/31 counterpart.
Response: That may be true, but handling a curriculum is much different then excelling in a curriculum. As doctors, shouldn't we always strive for excellence not only for ourselves, but also for our patients? Patients deserve a physician who not only handled med school curriculum, but also excelled in it. Furthermore, studies show that under a 26 MCAT, there is a significant impact on Step1 performance and pass rate. I trust the study, but my instinct tells me that a person who scored borderline to that 26 is going to have a much tougher time on his/her boards. I do recognize that there are exceptions to every rule, however.

Point: Matriculating URMs overall are just as academically proficient GPA/MCAT wise, if not more proficient than their ORM counterparts.
Response: I want to start off by saying that I completely agree that something like the above happens. However, based on statistics and not anecdotal evidence, I'm sorry to say that this simply isn't true overall. Based on the AAMC data from this year's cycle, URM matriculants do tend to have lower stats. Now I realize that there are plenty of reasons this can happen, but I'm just here to talk about overall trends.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321498/data/factstablea18.pdf
According to the matriculant table, Native Americans, Blacks and Hispanics had an average GPA and MCAT of 3.51/27.4, 3.48/27.4, and 3.59/28, respectively. On the other hand, matriculants of White and Asian ethnicity had an average GPA/MCAT of 3.73/31.8 and 3.73/32.8, respectively.

Final thoughts: People might be wondering: "What's the difference between a system based on race and socioeconomic status? The difference is that a system based on URMs allows for people of that race who aren't disadvantaged to take advantage of such a system. A system based on socioeconomic status allows for both underprivileged URMs and ORMs to benefit mutually. Furthermore, the current system tries to correct for lowered GPA/MCAT based on disadvantaged races, arguing that the full academic potential of such an applicant hasn't been reached. But what happens when an upper middle class URM who's had many more opportunities (ability to reach his potential) granted to him gets accepted with subpar stats over an underprivileged ORM who hasn't had a chance to reach his full potential? That's where this current system inherently fails. Of course, I understand that there will always be a way to bend the rules, but the optimistic side of me hopes that a system based on academic credentials and socioeconomic status would be harder to take advantage of.

No matter your opinion, I wanted to thank everyone who's responded. I've learned a lot from reading this thread and will take as much as I can with me as I pursue my medical career. Thank you!

P.S. Screw legacy invites. That definitely needs to go.
 
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