Feasibility of Becoming Dean of Admissions and Changing the URM System

[Taddy Mason]

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People who can't interpret sarcasm on the internet will always turn into terrible doctors.

Welp if can't detect poorly delivered sarcasm then I guess I'm fu(ked.

 

[Redpancreas]

I really think the whole URM vs . ORM frustration comes from the fact that many ORMs are kind of expected to do something like medicine, engineering, or finance. Therefore, doing that isn't enough to make them special. Thus, their self-esteem is then derived from the prestige of the tertiary schooling institution they are accepted into. When ORMs see URMs get into the better schools than them with lower stats, they subconsciously see it as a direct attack on their self-esteem.

In reality, like many have suggested, I don't think someone with a 3.0 and 26 MCAT vs. a person with a 3.8 and 38 MCAT is necessarily less qualified to be a physician at the end of the day as more important things like drive and passion for patient care play way of a more important role. I think most medical students begin to realize this after their first semester of medical school.

At the end of the day, we all need to abandon the illusion that merit is the deciding factor. The sole factor is what's the best for national interest or whoever props up the medical schools. At this point, I really think getting more blacks/hispanics (especially those from poorer backgrounds) involved would benefit the nation. As someone above pointed out, I think the notion that African Americans doubt their "rich white elite" physicians is very real as I've spoken to poor African Americans outside the medical school and many do indeed hold this view and it is very real to them.

 

[StrongIslandDoc]

lol @ this thread existing

 

[Psai]

This thread is why premeds shouldn't be allowed to post in allo

 

[prettylittlebird]

Final thoughts: People might be wondering: "What's the difference between a system based on race and socioeconomic status? The difference is that a system based on URMs allows for people of that race who aren't disadvantaged to take advantage of such a system. A system based on socioeconomic status allows for both underprivileged URMs and ORMs to benefit mutually. Furthermore, the current system tries to correct for lowered GPA/MCAT based on disadvantaged races, arguing that the full academic potential of such an applicant hasn't been reached. But what happens when an upper middle class URM who's had many more opportunities (ability to reach his potential) granted to him gets accepted with subpar stats over an underprivileged ORM who hasn't had a chance to reach his full potential? That's where this current system inherently fails. Of course, I understand that their will always be a way to bend the rules, but the optimistic side of me hopes that a system based on academic credentials and socioeconomic status would be harder to take advantage of.

I'm curious as to what you would consider an underprivileged ORM who hasn't been able to reach their full potential? If you're talking strictly SES then there is room in your AMCAS primary to indicate this and to write about your experience which I would assume would then be taken into consideration by ADCOMS. If that's your main fear then it seems unnecessary to do away with URM system completely.

 

[swashbuckaroo]

This thread is why premeds shouldn't be allowed to post in allo

Please explain what is so inherently wrong, stupid and immature about my thread that it shouldn't even be allowed in the sacred land of Allo, considering I'm an accepted student (as I stated previously) looking for genuine constructive criticism about a path I might want to pursue, on a forum designed to offer advice and information?

 

[swashbuckaroo]

I'm curious as to what you would consider an underprivileged ORM who hasn't been able to reach their full potential? If you're talking strictly SES then there is room in your AMCAS primary to indicate this and to write about your experience which I would assume would then be taken into consideration by ADCOMS. If that's your main fear then it seems unnecessary to do away with URM system completely.

I actually thought about that too. I'm not sure if it adds up the way I think it does, but what happens when an underprivileged URM is competing for the same spot as this underprivileged ORM? The first applicant has the benefit of also being of a race that the system likes to support, whereas the second doesn't.

 

[swashbuckaroo]

I really think the whole URM vs . ORM frustration comes from the fact that many ORMs are kind of expected to do something like medicine, engineering, or finance. Therefore, doing that isn't enough to make them special. Thus, their self-esteem is then derived from the prestige of the tertiary schooling institution they are accepted into. When ORMs see URMs get into the better schools than them with lower stats, they subconsciously see it as a direct attack on their self-esteem.

In reality, like many have suggested, I don't think someone with a 3.0 and 26 MCAT vs. a person with a 3.8 and 38 MCAT is necessarily less qualified to be a physician at the end of the day as more important things like drive and passion for patient care play way of a more important role. I think most medical students begin to realize this after their first semester of medical school.

At the end of the day, we all need to abandon the illusion that merit is the deciding factor. The sole factor is what's the best for national interest or whoever props up the medical schools. At this point, I really think getting more blacks/hispanics (especially those from poorer backgrounds) involved would benefit the nation. As someone above pointed out, I think the notion that African Americans doubt their "rich white elite" physicians is very real as I've spoken to poor African Americans outside the medical school and many do indeed hold this view and it is very real to them.

Agreed with the first paragraph. But regarding the last two, don't you think that drive and passion played a role in the person obtaining a 3.8/38? How much drive did the 3.0/26 have then? Also, I'd like to refer to what I said previously: A policy like the one I'm proposing shouldn't have any conflict with ensuring that minorities be included in a medical school class, since like many have pointed out, many times race and socioeconomic status are intertwined. For example, an underprivileged African American applicant will still have the benefit of an even playing field--it simply wouldn't be because of his/her race, but because of the obstacles he/she had to overcome.

 

[DrJackRyan]

lots of black doctors doing quite well practicing in bridgeport, CT, durham, NC, and Barrington, IL. So please just stop.

What is your point? I'm not talking about physicians doing "quite well" in any location. In fact physician income and satisfaction level (or whatever your definition of "black doctors doing quite well" is) is the exact opposite of what the purpose of my original post is. I am, however, stating that minority populations have improved access to preventive healthcare when culturally competent physicians are at their care. Cultural competence can be an effect reached by almost any physician, whether it be one that is a white veteran caring for other veterans all the way to the other side of the spectrum like a Hispanic immigrant turned physician. This is a barriers to healthcare issue - not a physician satisfaction issue.

 

[StrongIslandDoc]

What is your point? I'm not talking about physicians doing "quite well" in any location. In fact physician income and satisfaction level (or whatever your definition of "black doctors doing quite well" is) is the exact opposite of what the purpose of my original post is. I am, however, stating that minority populations have improved access to preventive healthcare when culturally competent physicians are at their care. Cultural competence can be an effect reached by almost any physician, whether it be one that is a white veteran caring for other veterans all the way to the other side of the spectrum like a Hispanic immigrant turned physician. This is a barriers to healthcare issue - not a physician satisfaction issue.

Take my word for it - I grew up in the hood, I live in the hood now, and once I'm a physician, I'm never going back. The same is likely true for most coming from significantly disadvantaged backgrounds...so you get "lots of black doctors doing quite well in (insert cushy suburban mostly white neighborhood here)" - I think most people who have the opportunity to upgrade their quality of life, do.

 

[Goro]

It boils down to what the patients need, and the school wants, not what the applicants want.

At the end of the day, we all need to abandon the illusion that merit is the deciding factor. The sole factor is what's the best for national interest or whoever props up the medical schools. At this point, I really think getting more blacks/hispanics (especially those from poorer backgrounds) involved would benefit the nation. As someone above pointed out, I think the notion that African Americans doubt their "rich white elite" physicians is very real as I've spoken to poor African Americans outside the medical school and many do indeed hold this view and it is very real to them.

 

[Psai]

Please explain what is so inherently wrong, stupid and immature about my thread that it shouldn't even be allowed in the sacred land of Allo, considering I'm an accepted student (as I stated previously) looking for genuine constructive criticism about a path I might want to pursue, on a forum designed to offer advice and information?

Because you're not a med student yet, you're probably not going to be a dean and urm battle threads are too stupid for allo

 

[swashbuckaroo]

Because you're not a med student yet, you're probably not going to be a dean and urm battle threads are too stupid for allo

Except if you had read literally the first post on this thread: "I know it's a lot to ask, but if you guys can set your personal differences aside for a moment and offer your thoughts about my hypothetical, that would be wonderful! Please try and keep the discussion away from the overdone URM debate and more on the feasibility of this idea."

 

[StrongIslandDoc]

Except if you had read literally the first post on this thread: "I know it's a lot to ask, but if you guys can set your personal differences aside for a moment and offer your thoughts about my hypothetical, that would be wonderful! Please try and keep the discussion away from the overdone URM debate and more on the feasibility of this idea."

That's like having a conversation about the holocaust but asking people to not mention Jews or forced human experimentation.

 

[swashbuckaroo]

Because you're not a med student yet, you're probably not going to be a dean and urm battle threads are too stupid for allo

Except if you had read literally the first post on this thread: "I know it's a lot to ask, but if you guys can set your personal differences aside for a moment and offer your thoughts about my hypothetical, that would be wonderful! Please try and keep the discussion away from the overdone URM debate and more on the feasibility of this idea."

That's like having a conversation about the holocaust but asking people to not mention Jews or forced human experimentation.

Mentioning something and focusing an entire argument on something are entirely different. I asked people to not debate the classic URM debate and focus more on my hypothetical.

 

[StrongIslandDoc]

Except if you had read literally the first post on this thread: "I know it's a lot to ask, but if you guys can set your personal differences aside for a moment and offer your thoughts about my hypothetical, that would be wonderful! Please try and keep the discussion away from the overdone URM debate and more on the feasibility of this idea."

Mentioning something and focusing an entire argument on something are entirely different. I asked people to not debate the classic URM debate and focus more on my hypothetical.

$20 says this kid is actually @Birdnals

 

[swashbuckaroo]

$20 says this kid is actually @Birdnals

$30 says your post is actually contributing to intelligent discussion. Oh wait, it's not. Guess I'm out $30!

 

[StrongIslandDoc]

$30 says your post is actually contributing to intelligent discussion. Oh wait, it's not. Guess I'm out $30!

Very mature.

 

[cbrons]

What is your point? I'm not talking about physicians doing "quite well" in any location. In fact physician income and satisfaction level (or whatever your definition of "black doctors doing quite well" is) is the exact opposite of what the purpose of my original post is. I am, however, stating that minority populations have improved access to preventive healthcare when culturally competent physicians are at their care. Cultural competence can be an effect reached by almost any physician, whether it be one that is a white veteran caring for other veterans all the way to the other side of the spectrum like a Hispanic immigrant turned physician. This is a barriers to healthcare issue - not a physician satisfaction issue.

So you have to be black to identify with black and white to identify with white. Got it

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[twospadz]

Except if you had read literally the first post on this thread: "I know it's a lot to ask, but if you guys can set your personal differences aside for a moment and offer your thoughts about my hypothetical, that would be wonderful! Please try and keep the discussion away from the overdone URM debate and more on the feasibility of this idea."


Mentioning something and focusing an entire argument on something are entirely different. I asked people to not debate the classic URM debate and focus more on my hypothetical.

People need to stop talking about this on this forum like it will solve anything. OP if you bring this up around your medical school campus you will be blacklisted and be reported by your fellow classmates to the administration. Honestly, just stfu and keep your head low. You will have way more things to worry about once you start medical school

 

[swashbuckaroo]

People need to stop talking about this on this forum like it will solve anything. OP if you bring this up around your medical school campus you will be blacklisted and be reported by your fellow classmates to the administration. Honestly, just stfu and keep your head low. You will have way more things to worry about once you start medical school

I realize it's s controversial topic, which is why I used this platform to discuss it and possibly raise awareness. I respect and appreciate the advice but throughout history keeping one's head down hasn't been the way to accomplish anything.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Please explain what is so inherently wrong, stupid and immature about my thread that it shouldn't even be allowed in the sacred land of Allo, considering I'm an accepted student (as I stated previously) looking for genuine constructive criticism about a path I might want to pursue, on a forum designed to offer advice and information?

This thread is dumb and you know it. If you asked the same question with any attending, dean, or board member they would think there is something seriously wrong with you.

 

[StrongIslandDoc]

This thread is dumb and you know it. If you asked the same question with any attending, dean, or board member they would think there is something seriously wrong with you.

Now that's the smartest thing since sliced bread.

 

[swashbuckaroo]

This thread is dumb and you know it. If you asked the same question with any attending, dean, or board member they would think there is something seriously wrong with you.

Well you see this is awkward because A. I don't think this thread is dumb-quite the contrary actually if you've read any of the discussion since Adcoms actually bothered to offer advice. And B. I've actually talked to the attendings I've worked with and some harbored the same feelings and whereas some didn't. The commonality between each conversation, however, was the willingness to discuss, which leads me to believe that I am in fact, not crazy.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

Classmate of mine said online: "White privilege doesn't exist. That's the stupidest concept ever. Here's some data that proves I'm right." (The data was bullsh**) This was in response to a very long argument that spiraled out of control. Classmate got reported to my school's administration -> did not suffer permanent consequences, but now keeps head down low.

Moral of the story: Don't do med school with that kind of attitude.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Well you see this is awkward because A. I don't think this thread is dumb-quite the contrary actually if you've read any of the discussion since Adcoms actually bothered to offer advice. And B. I've actually talked to the attendings I've worked with and some harbored the same feelings and whereas some didn't. The commonality between each conversation, however, was the willingness to discuss, which leads me to believe that I am in fact, not crazy.

So you've spoken with attendings who harbor feelings of wanting to become a medical school dean to stop affirmative action? Sorry I find that hard to believe.

Since you are so confident that this topic is in fact not ******ed why don't you schedule an appointment with your soon-to-be dean of students and discuss it with him? Now that would make me look really silly

 

[swashbuckaroo]

Classmate of mine said online: "White privilege doesn't exist. That's the stupidest concept ever. Here's some data that proves I'm right." (The data was bullsh**) This was in response to a very long argument that spiraled out of control. Classmate got reported to my school's administration -> did not suffer permanent consequences, but now keeps head down low.

Moral of the story: Don't do med school with that kind of attitude.

Hey man, I totally agree with you with the moral of the story... for the story you presented. However, my thread has never once said that white privilege doesn't exist. This thread is a different story. Also, for the record, I firmly believe that it does and is a problem that needs to be corrected in society.

 

[swashbuckaroo]

So you've spoken with attendings who harbor feelings of wanting to become a medical school dean to stop affirmative action? Sorry I find that hard to believe.

Since you are so confident that this topic is in fact not ******ed why don't you schedule an appointment with your soon-to-be dean of students and discuss it with him? Now that would make me look really silly

That moment when you propose a hypothetical situation in which I would be discounted as crazy, but then I offer you evidence from my life that proves otherwise, and then you propose that I don't have the courage to talk to my dean about an issue I want more perspective on. Love it! Keep it up!
P.S. The URM system is altogether different than affirmative action, which has been stated on this forum many a time.

 

[W19]

@swashbuckaroo Stop worrying about low hanging fruit (i.e a few URM that got into med school). You should be more concerned about big government and corporation taking over the medical profession.

 

[WingedOx]

Since we're on the topic of career advancement for dumb reasons, I'd like to become the hospital CFO so that I can change the vending machines from Pepsi to Coke.

 

[tennislover1989]

Hey there, I appreciate the response. To answer your question, I feel that it's necessary to focus purely on academic credentials and socioeconomic status during the admissions process because it's in my opinion the best way to ensure physician quality while evening the playing field for those who truly need it aka the socioeconomically disadvantaged. A policy like the one I'm proposing shouldn't have any conflict with ensuring that minorities be included in a medical school class, since like many have pointed out, many times race and socioeconomic status are intertwined. For example, an underprivileged African American applicant will still have the benefit of an even playing field--it simply wouldn't be because of his/her race, but because of the obstacles he/she had to overcome. My problem with the system currently is that a middle class URM can still have an unnecessary advantage over an ORM from an impoverished community.

Final thoughts: People might be wondering: "What's the difference between a system based on race and socioeconomic status? The difference is that a system based on URMs allows for people of that race who aren't disadvantaged to take advantage of such a system. A system based on socioeconomic status allows for both underprivileged URMs and ORMs to benefit mutually. Furthermore, the current system tries to correct for lowered GPA/MCAT based on disadvantaged races, arguing that the full academic potential of such an applicant hasn't been reached. But what happens when an upper middle class URM who's had many more opportunities (ability to reach his potential) granted to him gets accepted with subpar stats over an underprivileged ORM who hasn't had a chance to reach his full potential? That's where this current system inherently fails. Of course, I understand that there will always be a way to bend the rules, but the optimistic side of me hopes that a system based on academic credentials and socioeconomic status would be harder to take advantage of.

All of this is just extremely naive to me. You are making a grave error in judgement by assuming that the people with the best grades will automatically make the best doctors. Speaking as someone in the midst of M3 year, I can't stress enough how fundamentally flawed this thought process is.

Medicine is not a meritocracy. Being a great doctor requires more than just being good at science; this is one of the reasons why the MCAT changed and more schools are switching to the MMI interview format. People from privileged backgrounds apply to medical schools with the assumption that getting the highest scores guarantees acceptance. If that were true, medical schools wouldn't care about their applicant's community service history, extracurricular activities, or leadership positions. Some people feel very entitled to certain things in life, and seats in medical school classes are just one example of this. If I could shout this from the rooftops I would: NO ONE is entitled to a seat in medical school, no matter what your stats/scores are. Adcoms can fill their seats however they choose, and I fully support the current strategy of holistic admissions where students aren't reduced to just numbers and test scores. If you wanted that you should have have applied to law school.

You speak about affirmative action and the URM system as if they are completely different; this is not so. In my experience, it is common for a lot of people to assume that the only disparities between white people and people of color can be cleared up with money. This is simply not the case. Frankly, it is naive to assume that a black person of a higher socioeconomic status is immune to discrimination. People fail to recognize is that there is a lot of prejudice that black students face no matter how much money their family makes. Racist attitudes have not been eradicated in this country, and the fact that so many people don't recognize that they have this unconscious bias makes it even harder to work towards improving it. I personally have enough stories to write a book one day about all of the racist things I've experienced on this road to becoming a physician, and I probably will because I really don't think most white people realize the profound impact these events can have on our lives. I have examples for days if you truly want to know what my experience has been like. To put it bluntly, being black in America IS a disadvantage on its own. Until that ceases to be true, affirmative action will always be needed.

Once again, as someone who hasn't even begun medical school, I really don't understand how you can have a problem with this system. Until you are able to experience what it feels like to join a class full of people from all different walks of life and see for yourself how that diversity contributes to your growth as a physician and as a person, I really don't think you should be making such arguments.

 

[swashbuckaroo]

All of this is just extremely naive to me. You are making a grave error in judgement by assuming that the people with the best grades will automatically make the best doctors. Speaking as someone in the midst of M3 year, I can't stress enough how fundamentally flawed this thought process is.

Medicine is not a meritocracy. Being a great doctor requires more than just being good at science; this is one of the reasons why the MCAT changed and more schools are switching to the MMI interview format. People from privileged backgrounds apply to medical schools with the assumption that getting the highest scores guarantees acceptance. If that were true, medical schools wouldn't care about their applicant's community service history, extracurricular activities, or leadership positions. Some people feel very entitled to certain things in life, and seats in medical school classes are just one example of this. If I could shout this from the rooftops I would: NO ONE is entitled to a seat in medical school, no matter what your stats/scores are. Adcoms can fill their seats however they choose, and I fully support the current strategy of holistic admissions where students aren't reduced to just numbers and test scores. If you wanted that you should have have applied to law school.

In my experience, it is common for a lot of people to assume that the only disparities between white people and people of color can be cleared up with money. This is simply not the case. Frankly, it is naive to assume that a black person of a higher socioeconomic status is immune to discrimination. People fail to recognize is that there is a lot of prejudice that black students face no matter how much money their family makes. Racist attitudes have not been eradicated in this country, and the fact that so many people don't recognize that they have this unconscious bias makes it even harder to work towards improving it. I personally have enough stories to write a book one day about all of the racist things I've experienced on this road to becoming a physician, and I probably will because I really don't think most white people realize the profound impact these events can have on our lives. I have examples for days if you truly want to know what my experience has been like. To put it bluntly, being black in America IS a disadvantage on its own. Until that ceases to be true, affirmative action will always be needed.

Once again, as someone who hasn't even begun medical school, I really don't understand how you can have a problem with this system. Until you are able to experience what it feels like to join a class full of people from all different walks of life and see for yourself how that diversity contributes to your growth as a physician and as a person, I really don't think you should be making such arguments.

With all due respect (and I truly mean it), I may be extremely new to this, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion, voice it, and ask for a constructive discussion. Just because I don't know how to pilot a helicopter, doesn't mean I can't tell that a helicopter pilot who crashes into the middle of a tree messed up. To counter your argument about discrimination, I offer the situation of a middle class Asian applicant who's also a minority by American standards, faced discrimination to get where he/she is, but does not get the added advantage of being an URM applicant.

 

[NicksMD]

I kind of understand what OP is saying but I don't understand why people get so frustrated over URM admissions policies when we literally make up less than 10% of most classes. I actually have friends at some medical schools where there are no more than 3-4 African Americans in their class. Out of 100 plus students, why is it such a big deal? OP I'm not here to ridicule you but you want more ORMs when you can find a good amount in classes and the applicant pool? I think it would be asinine to change the policy to favor a group(ORMs), when they are greatly represented.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[swashbuckaroo]

Anyways the haters who have nothing of significance to contribute to my thread have officially begun to appear. Not to be confused with the type of hater who disagrees but also finds a way to discuss it in a civilized manner without resorting to trigger words like "******ed". To take a page out of your book, sliceofbread, in which you are in disbelief that I'm going into healthcare--how could you possibly use such a word knowing full well the negative connotation it holds amongst populations of those with learning disabilities, and still be pursuing healthcare?

In closing, I've gained a lot of perspective from this thread and am thankful for the people who posted in it constructively. Mods please close. Thanks.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

With all due respect (and I truly mean it), I may be extremely new to this, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion, voice it, and ask for a constructive discussion. Just because I don't know how to pilot a helicopter, doesn't mean I can't tell that a helicopter pilot who crashes into the middle of a tree messed up. To counter your argument about discrimination, I offer the situation of a middle class Asian applicant who's also a minority by American standards, faced discrimination to get where he/she is, but does not get the added advantage of being an URM applicant.

Asians don't face the same extremely bad prejudices and discrimination that African Americans and Hispanics do. You can't use that argument (and this is coming from an Asian person).

 

[sliceofbread136]

That moment when you propose a hypothetical situation in which I would be discounted as crazy, but then I offer you evidence from my life that proves otherwise, and then you propose that I don't have the courage to talk to my dean about an issue I want more perspective on. Love it! Keep it up!
P.S. The URM system is altogether different than affirmative action, which has been stated on this forum many a time.

Evidence huh, I think you are using that term rather loosely. Exactly how many attendings did you talk to about becoming a dean to stop the "URM system"? Talking to a physician that simply doesn't like it does not count, it has to be on your specific plans.

And if you have so much "courage" then do it. I'll be waiting excitedly to hear the results (not really)

 

[sliceofbread136]

Anyways the haters who have nothing of significance to contribute to my thread have officially begun to appear. Not to be confused with the type of hater who disagrees but also finds a way to discuss it in a civilized manner without resorting to trigger words like "******ed". To take a page out of your book, sliceofbread, in which you are in disbelief that I'm going into healthcare--how could you possibly use such a word knowing full well the negative connotation it holds amongst populations of those with learning disabilities, and still be pursuing healthcare?

In closing, I've gained a lot of perspective from this thread and am thankful for the people who posted in it constructively. Mods please close. Thanks.

I'm not in disbelief at all, not sure where you got that from. I've been on this board long enough to know the maturity level of the average SDN premed fairly well.

And people in healthcare say ******ed all the time. If you find the word that bad you will be in for a rude awakening come clinical time. Much more insensitive things are said fairly routinely

 

[Mansamusa]

Anyways the haters who have nothing of significance to contribute to my thread have officially begun to appear. Not to be confused with the type of hater who disagrees but also finds a way to discuss it in a civilized manner without resorting to trigger words like "******ed". To take a page out of your book, sliceofbread, in which you are in disbelief that I'm going into healthcare--how could you possibly use such a word knowing full well the negative connotation it holds amongst populations of those with learning disabilities, and still be pursuing healthcare?

In closing, I've gained a lot of perspective from this thread and am thankful for the people who posted in it constructively. Mods please close. Thanks.

If you subtract the black students who go to historically black med schools, you have about 1,000 black students at other US MD schools. Many of these black students come from SES-disadvantaged backgrounds, so lets underestimate and say 400 of the 1000 are SES-disadvantaged.

You're getting your knickers in a twist on something that effects less than 600 of the over 20,000 MD students (3%). I can understand pre-meds freaking out over AA because applying is stressful, but once you get in you should realize how overdramatic people are about AA. It is such a small number of seats that have a potential of really contributing to healthcare

 

[swashbuckaroo]

@URMfutureDoc
Hey there, appreciate the response. To answer your question though, I never wanted for there to be more ORMs in a class. All I was saying the whole time was that the current system is flawed in that applicants who need to be on an equal playing field sometimes don't get that opportunity. To quote what I said before: "A policy like the one I'm proposing shouldn't have any conflict with ensuring that minorities be included in a medical school class, since like many have pointed out, many times race and socioeconomic status are intertwined. For example, an underprivileged African American applicant will still have the benefit of an even playing field--it simply wouldn't be because of his/her race, but because of the obstacles he/she had to overcome." As for how that might play out in the long run regarding class diversity, I don't know.

@Ace Khalifa It's thinking like that that honestly helps perpetuate stereotypes that Asians are the model minority and have perfect lives. So I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. One of my closest friends is Asian, and she would honestly be saddened by the fact that people think that her being made fun of for having "ugly squinty" eyes or being an antisocial nerd based on her ethnicity is much better than being called out for having a different skin color (or whatever stereotypes other minorities face) all throughout childhood. I'd also like to point out that the first immigrant act in the United States banning immigration from a certain group of people was the Asian Exclusion Act of 1924. But no one ever brings that up in popular media because of the stereotype that "Asians live a blissful life for minorities".

 

[swashbuckaroo]

If you subtract the black students who go to historically black med schools, you have about 1,000 black students at other US MD schools. Many of these black students come from SES-disadvantaged backgrounds, so lets underestimate and say 400 of the 1000 are SES-disadvantaged.

You're getting your knickers in a twist on something that effects less than 600 of the over 20,000 MD students. I can understand pre-meds freaking out over AA because applying is stressful, but once you get in you should realize how overdramatic people about AA. It such a small number of seats that have a potential of really contributing to healthcare

I thank you for the response, but once again, I'm not advocating for there to be less URMs in a class! All I want is for ALL students who are disadvantaged regardless of skin color to be on the same playing field.

Oh and @sliceofbread136 , I've talked to 3 attendings about the URM policy during the year in which I was scribing, but you're right--I only talked to 1 about making change from the inside on the Adcom (so about that specific topic, not that many). But how many attendings/board members have you talked to that would be so sure that I'm crazy? Before I go though, I just want to leave you with this thought: If all the people in history who've decided to seek change, were called crazy, and as a result didn't pursue their agenda, what state would our world be in?


Okay, now I'm really done. Thanks for the convos guys. Peace.

 

[Mansamusa]

I thank you for the response, but once again, I'm not advocating for there to be less URMs in a class! All I want is for ALL students who are disadvantaged regardless of skin color to be on the same playing field.

Okay, now I'm really done. Thanks for the convos guys. Peace.

But it can be a combo! Adcoms already use a racial/SES combo approach to admissions AA. I agree that we should put more emphasis on SES than we currently do, but increasing SES AA doesn't mean taking away from racial AA.

 

[JoannePrada]

@Ace Khalifa It's thinking like that that honestly helps perpetuate stereotypes that Asians are the model minority and have perfect lives. So I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. One of my closest friends is Asian, and she would honestly be saddened by the fact that people think that her being made fun of for having "ugly squinty" eyes or being an antisocial nerd based on her ethnicity is much better than being called out for having a different skin color (or whatever stereotypes other minorities face) all throughout childhood. I'd also like to point out that the first immigrant act in the United States banning immigration from a certain group of people was the Asian Exclusion Act of 1924. But no one ever brings that up in popular media because of the stereotype that "Asians live a blissful life for minorities".

Ace never said Asians don't face discrimination, he said they don't experience the same type of discrimination as Black and Latinx people, and that's accurate.

 

[Goro]

And Big Pharma's corrupting role on prescribing, and direct advertising to consumers.

@swashbuckaroo Stop worrying about low hanging fruit (i.e a few URM that got into med school). You should be more concerned about big government and corporation taking over the medical profession.

 

[tennislover1989]

With all due respect (and I truly mean it), I may be extremely new to this, but that doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have an opinion, voice it, and ask for a constructive discussion. Just because I don't know how to pilot a helicopter, doesn't mean I can't tell that a helicopter pilot who crashes into the middle of a tree messed up. To counter your argument about discrimination, I offer the situation of a middle class Asian applicant who's also a minority by American standards, faced discrimination to get where he/she is, but does not get the added advantage of being an URM applicant.

My point is that you are complaining about something which is actually not a problem. You believe it is a problem, but because you actually don't have any experience in medical school you can't know that you are mistaken.

As other people have stated, comparing Asians to African Americans is a false equivalence in this discussion. And with all due respect to you, I've been a black woman in America for the last 27 years. Whether you recognize the systematic discrimination against black people or not doesn't erase my or anyone else's life experience. There is no "counter" to that.

All of your arguments sound less and less to me like you want it to be "fair" and more like you have a problem with URMs being in medical school. Nothing you've said so far is dissuading me from the opinion that you feel like these URMs are "taking seats" away from people "more deserving."

 

[StrongIslandDoc]

So you have to be black to identify with black and white to identify with white. Got it

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

I am not grilling on you or anything man, but I read this and I thought of two killer rebuttals, and I can't think of which one to use so I'm just going to throw them both out for entertainments sake because I just really can't right now lol.

1. ASK RACHEL DOLEZAL

and

2. self-Identify as "black" on a medical school application as a Caucasian and see what happens!

 

[eteshoe]

Keep this thread going lol - I don't usually get to see this kind of rollercoaster thread except if I go over to pre-all0.

OP, I do hope you eventually come to realize the unfeasibility of your original proposal.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

Ace never said Asians don't face discrimination, he said they don't experience the same type of discrimination as Black and Latinx people, and that's accurate.

Exactly. Last time I checked, Asians don't regularly get beaten and/or killed by police due to systemic racism (like Black people are). OP, don't even try to argue that Asians suffer the same type of discrimination as Blacks and Latinx people. If you do, that's just willful ignorance on your part. I will always be an advocate for increasing diversity and supporting affirmative action, even though I will never benefit from it.

All of your arguments sound less and less to me like you want it to be "fair" and more like you have a problem with URMs being in medical school. Nothing you've said so far is dissuading me from the opinion that you feel like these URMs are "taking seats" away from people "more deserving."

This about sums up how I feel.

 

[StrongIslandDoc]

Classmate of mine said online: "White privilege doesn't exist. That's the stupidest concept ever. Here's some data that proves I'm right." (The data was bullsh**) This was in response to a very long argument that spiraled out of control. Classmate got reported to my school's administration -> did not suffer permanent consequences, but now keeps head down low.

Moral of the story: Don't do med school with that kind of attitude.

#mandatorytownhallmeeting

 

[owlplatypusmuffin]

Well Swashbuckaroo, to respond to your initial question about feasibility... I think what you would like to do (or are thinking about doing) would be feasible at a school in certain areas of our country. And there are many areas in our country where your plan(s) and rationale would be incompatible with the values and vision of the community. If you feel pretty clear and confident about your motivations and vision of the change you're seeking, then all you have to do is find like-minded peers to get the ball rolling.

Since it seems to me that you are kinda sorta also looking for feedback on your idea/plan itself, I want to say this: Sit with it some more. I don't doubt that you've "considered the numerous implications" of what you'd like to do... But still, meditate some more on the topics your plan covers -- because there's just a lot to discern.

Meditate too on what's going on for you personally (emotionally, mentally, etc). This problem you've identified and are passionate about: underrepresented students of color, who are not living in poverty, potentially? or currently? or historically? "take advantage of [medical school admissions] system"... is super interesting. I'm curious about your story, Swashbuckaroo. You know when someone dedicates his career to ending deforestation or hunger or some other societal problem, there's often a personal story behind his motivations.

The United States is 240 years young. We started off with attempts at genocide and people hanging from nooses then continued on through the "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male." Science/Medicine/Health Care had a very prominent role in rationalizing/justifying and promoting those conditions and experiences, so... there's just a lot to sit with before criticizing and setting out to change policy attempts to rectify wrongs against our fellow human being.

Also, if you haven't already, read-up on the life of Gandhi. He definitely, went back to the drawing board a lot on his beliefs and ideas.

 

[skippypeanutbutter]

All of your arguments sound less and less to me like you want it to be "fair" and more like you have a problem with URMs being in medical school. Nothing you've said so far is dissuading me from the opinion that you feel like these URMs are "taking seats" away from people "more deserving."

lol OP literally said that he is not trying to take away seats from urms here: "I thank you for the response, but once again, I'm not advocating for there to be less URMs in a class! All I want is for ALL students who are disadvantaged regardless of skin color to be on the same playing field.:

here: "Hey there, appreciate the response. To answer your question though, I never wanted for there to be more ORMs in a class. All I was saying the whole time was that the current system is flawed in that applicants who need to be on an equal playing field sometimes don't get that opportunity."

and here: "A policy like the one I'm proposing shouldn't have any conflict with ensuring that minorities be included in a medical school class, since like many have pointed out, many times race and socioeconomic status are intertwined. For example, an underprivileged African American applicant will still have the benefit of an even playing field--it simply wouldn't be because of his/her race, but because of the obstacles he/she had to overcome."