Fellowship application process

[Bonferroni Correction]

I am yet to begin the fellowship application/interview process but in reading the related threads, it seems pretty stressful. Relative to applying to residency, there seems to be more inter-program variability and even less available information with which applicants to make responsible decisions. One of the chiefs at my program told us to "apply to every program in the country and say yes to every interview - when you have over 30 interviews, you can start to whittle down."

I realize he may be an extreme case (at least I hope he is) but this seems like an incredibly inefficient process. And given many programs only have 1 or 2 spots, this seems silly.

Rather than just rant i have a few questions:
1) Are a significant number of surgery residents overapplying to programs? Is this practice more or less common than it was during residency applications?
2) How many applicants do programs interview? Are there any that are known to over-interview?

It is a bit disconcerting if everyone is overapplying. In applying to residency, I had some friends who were "below average" and had to apply to 80+ programs; it worked for a couple and sadly it didn't work for 2 others (1 ortho, 1 urology, both now doing IM). I understand having to apply broadly if you are not an ideal applicant... but if there's a positively reinforcing loop of over-applying and over-interviewing, everybody loses. I'd love to interview at 3 programs... or 1 program!

3) Can a program and resident talk straight and both say "you are my number 1... its a 1 spot program... don't waste any of your time looking elsewhere." ?

This is my dream. I hate having to convince someone that I have more interest in their location and program than I have simply because I want to rise on their rank list.

4) How many programs should an average applicant apply to? (for moderately-competitive fields like MIS, vascular, trauma/CC)

5) How many applicants do programs interview? Per spot? (I read on a related forum that VCU interviewed 60 people for 1 spot - *I apologize if this is in error as I cannot find this post now for quotation*) Can we ask programs how many people they interview or is that shady?

6) If applications are done with a common application, is it worth reaching out to individual programs that you are ACTUALLY interested in to differentiate yourself from people who are just "applying everywhere." Or is this frowned upon ? (as I write this, I realize this could simply start an letter-of-interest arms race that will make this process even more tedious)

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[Dirt]

I am yet to begin the fellowship application/interview process but in reading the related threads, it seems pretty stressful. Relative to applying to residency, there seems to be more inter-program variability and even less available information with which applicants to make responsible decisions. One of the chiefs at my program told us to "apply to every program in the country and say yes to every interview - when you have over 30 interviews, you can start to whittle down."

I realize he may be an extreme case (at least I hope he is) but this seems like an incredibly inefficient process. And given many programs only have 1 or 2 spots, this seems silly.

Rather than just rant i have a few questions:
1) Are a significant number of surgery residents overapplying to programs? Is this practice more or less common than it was during residency applications?
2) How many applicants do programs interview? Are there any that are known to over-interview?

It is a bit disconcerting if everyone is overapplying. In applying to residency, I had some friends who were "below average" and had to apply to 80+ programs; it worked for a couple and sadly it didn't work for 2 others (1 ortho, 1 urology, both now doing IM). I understand having to apply broadly if you are not an ideal applicant... but if there's a positively reinforcing loop of over-applying and over-interviewing, everybody loses. I'd love to interview at 3 programs... or 1 program!

3) Can a program and resident talk straight and both say "you are my number 1... its a 1 spot program... don't waste any of your time looking elsewhere." ?

This is my dream. I hate having to convince someone that I have more interest in their location and program than I have simply because I want to rise on their rank list.

4) How many programs should an average applicant apply to? (for moderately-competitive fields like MIS, vascular, trauma/CC)

5) How many applicants do programs interview? Per spot? (I read on a related forum that VCU interviewed 60 people for 1 spot - *I apologize if this is in error as I cannot find this post now for quotation*) Can we ask programs how many people they interview or is that shady?

6) If applications are done with a common application, is it worth reaching out to individual programs that you are ACTUALLY interested in to differentiate yourself from people who are just "applying everywhere." Or is this frowned upon ? (as I write this, I realize this could simply start an letter-of-interest arms race that will make this process even more tedious)

First of all there are marked differences between each fellowship. The more competitive fellowships like pedi, surg onc, and colorectal have considerably more "overapplying" if you want to call it that. In truth those fellowships require a significant number of interviews to ensure the best chance of matching.

With regard to your other questions.

3. Of course this can and does happen, but do you really want to risk your future on a completely non-binding promise from someone you don't really know, and who owes you nothing? I received of number of these "we're very interested in you" phone calls post-interview. My sense is that programs generally contact their top tier of applicants as likewise they are not going to risk not filling by believing the word of an applicant.

4. This is difficult to answer without knowing exactly how competitive your personal application is, what field exactly you are applying to, and how you plan to apply. You need a good advisor in the field to which you are applying to guide you. Applying to the 30 most competitive programs in a single field and applying to a well balanced mix of 30 top-tier, mid-tier, and lower-tier will yield a large difference in the number of interviews you receive. I would venture to say from personal experience and from those I know that applied in the fields you mention that 30 or so applications to a well balanced mix of programs and 10 or so interviews is likely sufficient to match, and there are people who would say that even that is overkill in the fields you reference.

5. It is kind of shady if you ask how many people a program interviews. Truthfully it doesn't matter and I don't know why you focus so much on it. Most likely programs know about how far they typically go on their rank list and they interview as many candidates as they think they need to fill the spot. If you are really that interested the ERAS programs list this on FREIDA I believe.

6. You should definitely reach out to the programs that you are actually interested in and furthermore you should have your mentors or advisors in your specialty call for you as well. This makes a huge difference as a lot of people have similar numbers and nothing is better than a strong endorsement from someone that a program director knows and trusts.




Honestly applying for fellowship is not rocket science or some riddle you need to figure out.

Get a good advisor who knows the lay of the land, i.e. a mentor in your field. Gauge your competitiveness. Research programs and apply to every one you would consider going to, trying to get a good mix of programs (i.e. not just the programs in one city, or just ivy league programs or something like that). See how many interviews roll in and go on what you want/can manage (Can guarantee you that number won't be anywhere near 30, probably closer to 10-15 max). Tell programs you like that you like them and have people call on your behalf. Rank them in the order you want, not the order based on who you think likes you best.

The hardest part of the whole process is figuring out what it is that you really want in a fellowship and ultimately ranking them.

Be happy you are not applying to Peds...

 

[vhawk]

5. It is kind of shady if you ask how many people a program interviews. Truthfully it doesn't matter and I don't know why you focus so much on it. Most likely programs know about how far they typically go on their rank list and they interview as many candidates as they think they need to fill the spot. If you are really that interested the ERAS programs list this on FREIDA I believe.
.

I agree with everything else you posted, but strongly disagree with this. Having gone through applying for fellowship and also having gone through interviewing fellowship applicants, I think you are well within your rights to ask how many they are interviewing for how many spots and I dont think you'd be looked down on for it at all. In fact I think the opposite is true, I think its super shady for a program not to be forthcoming with this information. For example I know of one program in MIS (not my field) that interviewed like 40-50 people for 1 spot. They are free to do what they want, but to me it is scummy to interview that many for a single spot and not tell people. Applicants have limited time and resources, and knowing that you have a 2% chance at matching at a program is essential information. In my specialty the average was something like 8-10 applicants per spot. If you are a program that is more or less doing what everyone else is doing, I dont think you need to adveratise exactly how many you are interviewing but you should be willing to say when asked. If you are a crazy outlier you should just say so.