Fellowship Article by WCI

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The fellowship will help you get the job you want with whatever focus that may be. That’s the reason to suck it up and do it. Even the OR management fellowship.
(No, not really that one.)
Except for the job opening that was available if you accepted right after residency, but was already filled by the time you finished fellowship.

I got the best job I could possibly imagine precisely because I didn't do a fellowship.
 
Except for the job opening that was available if you accepted right after residency, but was already filled by the time you finished fellowship.

I got the best job I could possibly imagine precisely because I didn't do a fellowship.
There is some truth to this... but I would recommend contacting groups early and letting them know your plans. My group held a spot for me bc they knew they’d have some with retirements over a few years. Others won’t be able to do that, but certainly can’t hurt to let them know that’s what you want to do.

This also seems obvious, but do NOT take a fellowship and then ask your future employer for a monthly/whatever stipend while you complete it - some MAY do this for you if you’re an existing employee and they need you to get extra training (one of my co-fellows has this deal). We have had one applicant ask for this while he completes a regional fellowship next year, and we rescinded the offer.
 
This is what almost all of us have been saying forever around here. Don’t chase the money as that’s a fool’s errand, do something you ENJOY!

This applies to general specialty choice as well.

According to the article by WCI a person who chooses to do a 1 year fellowship must earn an average of $24,000 per year more after tax to make that decision worth it. FYI, most AMCs pay cardiac trained Anesthesiologists more money per year than their generalists counterparts. In addition, imho the workload of those jobs is much easier in terms of supervising mid levels. Hence, doing a cardiac fellowship can make financial sense over the course of a long career.
 
According to the article by WCI a person who chooses to do a 1 year fellowship must earn an average of $24,000 per year more after tax to make that decision worth it. FYI, most AMCs pay cardiac trained Anesthesiologists more money per year than their generalists counterparts. In addition, imho the workload of those jobs is much easier in terms of supervising mid levels. Hence, doing a cardiac fellowship can make financial sense over the course of a long career.
Except you're on call more on cardiac because it's a smaller pool.
 
The bottom line is that a Cardiac Anesthesia Fellowship is WORTH it the majority of the time. Second, if you hate being on call and want to have holidays/weekends off then PAIN is also a wise choice based on lifestyle.

Contrary to many posters on this thread the WCI article reinforces my belief that doing a Fellowship in Cardiac or Pain is really worth it most of the time.
That said, the interest in those 2 fellowships is very high so the Residents do understand it as well.
 
Except you're on call more on cardiac because it's a smaller pool.
That can be rough if the transplant phone rings often, or a well paid cush lifestyle if you just do scheduled cases with a surgeon whose patients don't bleed postop.
 
That can be rough if the transplant phone rings often, or a well paid cush lifestyle if you just do scheduled cases with a surgeon whose patients don't bleed postop.
Right, but that's true of general practice, it's hospital dependent. I get called in on call maybe 15% of the time, the rest I get a full night of rest.
 
In my group I am specifically liver/cardiac/cardiac transplant for call. The call is more frequent than the generalists because of our pool size, but the call in rate is much less. The combined call in rate overall probably hovers around 20% and is almost entirely taken up by the transplant component.
 
Contrary to many posters on this thread the WCI article reinforces my belief that doing a Fellowship in Cardiac or Pain is really worth it most of the time.
That said, the interest in those 2 fellowships is very high so the Residents do understand it as well.
Contrary to whom? Most of us say that cardiac is the one fellowship worth doing. The only question is regarding Pain, given the drop in reimbursement and the poor quality of many jobs.
 
Contrary to whom? Most of us say that cardiac is the one fellowship worth doing. The only question is regarding Pain, given the drop in reimbursement and the poor quality of many jobs.

Couldnt one make the same argument about getting $hit reimbursements from CMS for cardiac cases?
 
Couldnt one make the same argument about getting $hit reimbursements from CMS for cardiac cases?
While CMS pays crap for cardiac anesthesia, they pay big bucks for open heart surgery, hence the former has strategic importance for hospitals and anesthesia groups. Pain doesn't.

Also, a cardiac fellowship will make one a better OR anesthesiologist. Pain won't.

The problem with Pain is that, if the person is unhappy with the post-fellowship job, it becomes a wasted year. It's like a fellowship in Palliative Care or Sleep: it's only worth it if one is happy practicing it. It's not really useful in the OR. It's a much bigger bet than Cardiac.

Maybe I am missing something...
 
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While CMS pays crap for cardiac anesthesia, they pay big bucks for open heart surgery, hence the former has strategic importance for hospitals and anesthesia groups. Pain doesn't.

Also, a cardiac fellowship will make one a better OR anesthesiologist. Pain won't.

The problem with Pain is that, if the person is unhappy with the post-fellowship job, it becomes a wasted year. It's like a fellowship in Palliative Care or Sleep: it's only worth it if one is happy practicing it. It's not really useful in the OR. It's a much bigger bet than Cardiac.

Maybe I am missing something...

Pain offers the opportunity to work ASC type hours without nights or weekends. In addition, you can own the center or part of the center where the procedures are performed generating more income. I disagree that PAIN isn't lucrative any longer circa 2020. The guys I know doing it full time are generating $400K-$800K in profit even with the reduced CMS reimbursements. The higher income Pain docs own their own clinic, ASC or are partners in a highly profitable ASC.


 
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Pain offers the opportunity to work ASC type hours without nights or weekends. In addition, you can own the center or part of the center where the procedures are performed generating more income. I disagree that PAIN isn't lucrative any longer circa 2020. The guys I know doing it full time are generating $400K-$800K in profit even with the reduced CMS reimbursements. The higher income Pain docs own their own clinic, ASC or are partners in a highly profitable ASC.


Blade, the folks you know doing pain have been doing it for years. That doesn't hold true to a new grad straight out of practice. It's quite rare to own a center or part of it nowadays.
 
Some anesthesiologists practice pain management, which is an office based practice helping patients manage chronic pain caused by illness, accident, or other cause. Pain management anesthesiologists administer drugs via oral medication or injection typically. Anesthesiologists who specialize in pain management earn $529,347 on average annually, according to the MGMA.

I don't think the world of PAIN is all doom and gloom. If you hustle and work hard I am sure you can earn MGMA average income. Again, the MATCH numbers prove many Residents agree with me. I do admit those expecting an easy job will be disappointed. Those people will get disillusioned and go back to the O.R. others will work for an HMO on salary for around $375,000.
 
Blade, the folks you know doing pain have been doing it for years. That doesn't hold true to a new grad straight out of practice. It's quite rare to own a center or part of it nowadays.

A new grad may be better off hooking up with 3-4 other Pain guys and building their own practice from the ground up. Go get the funding for a Pain ASC and dream big. Why settle for being an employee when you can be an owner.
 
This also seems obvious, but do NOT take a fellowship and then ask your future employer for a monthly/whatever stipend while you complete it - some MAY do this for you if you’re an existing employee and they need you to get extra training (one of my co-fellows has this deal). We have had one applicant ask for this while he completes a regional fellowship next year, and we rescinded the offer.

I asked the group i'm joining to shift some of my pay into a signing bonus for tax reasons. Did I dodge a bullet that they didn't rescind the offer?
 
I asked the group i'm joining to shift some of my pay into a signing bonus for tax reasons. Did I dodge a bullet that they didn't rescind the offer?

Thats different, the pay is still the same. This dude literally asked us for 5K/month while he completed a regional fellowship. We were borderline on hiring him already, this just pushed us over the edge.
 
Thats different, the pay is still the same. This dude literally asked us for 5K/month while he completed a regional fellowship. We were borderline on hiring him already, this just pushed us over the edge.

You're depriving this millennial of his God-given right to a monthly stipend from the group's revenue pool that he didn't work to earn. Haven't you ever heard of universal basic income?
 
One peds guy got a $50k bonus for moving to Alaska. Delivered on day 1 of his fellowship and arranged about a year prior. But that’s Alaska.
If the $5k/mo guy said take it out of my first years income would you have done it? A no interest loan doesn’t sound so unreasonable. Of course it sounds like you didn’t like him much anyway.
 
One peds guy got a $50k bonus for moving to Alaska. Delivered on day 1 of his fellowship and arranged about a year prior. But that’s Alaska.
If the $5k/mo guy said take it out of my first years income would you have done it? A no interest loan doesn’t sound so unreasonable. Of course it sounds like you didn’t like him much anyway.
Recent grad from my program signed his contract during 3rd year and got a stipend the rest of residency that came out of his first year salary. Seems like a stellar idea to me given the tax benefits of spreading out that money.
 
I asked the group i'm joining to shift some of my pay into a signing bonus for tax reasons. Did I dodge a bullet that they didn't rescind the offer?

Definitely not a big deal, but I don't understand how that can work for tax advantage. Both signing bonuses and salary are reported as earned income and are equally taxed. What am I missing?
 
Couldnt one make the same argument about getting $hit reimbursements from CMS for cardiac cases?

I went over the math previously in the private forum how one could still do quite well doing 1 cardiac case (Off Pump CABG, in my example) a day with even a 80% CMS/20% Private mix on what I would consider a "Mommy track" position. If you run the numbers, who might be pretty surprised
 
Definitely not a big deal, but I don't understand how that can work for tax advantage. Both signing bonuses and salary are reported as earned income and are equally taxed. What am I missing?
If you get that signing bonus during residency or fellowship (like, the year before you graduate) before your income increases by more than 8 times in one fell swoop, you'll pay a lot less taxes overall on it.
 
One peds guy got a $50k bonus for moving to Alaska. Delivered on day 1 of his fellowship and arranged about a year prior. But that’s Alaska.
If the $5k/mo guy said take it out of my first years income would you have done it? A no interest loan doesn’t sound so unreasonable. Of course it sounds like you didn’t like him much anyway.

We would have still said no. We don’t pay a signing bonus until 6 months prior to employment anyways, so there is precedent. My senior partners said they’ve never had such a request in 30+ years, and like I said the guy was borderline anyway.

We aren’t rural or exotic location like Alaska. It’s not glam big city living so it’s somewhat tough to recruit, but the people we do hire typically stick around for a long while both nurse and Physician.
 
Definitely not a big deal, but I don't understand how that can work for tax advantage. Both signing bonuses and salary are reported as earned income and are equally taxed. What am I missing?

peeewww... Thought i had to start looking for a job again 😉

My income in year 2019 is much lower than it would be in 2020. so if i get the signing bonus in 2019 it'd be taxed as a much different bracket.
 
We would have still said no. We don’t pay a signing bonus until 6 months prior to employment anyways, so there is precedent. My senior partners said they’ve never had such a request in 30+ years, and like I said the guy was borderline anyway.

We aren’t rural or exotic location like Alaska. It’s not glam big city living so it’s somewhat tough to recruit, but the people we do hire typically stick around for a long while both nurse and Physician.

Why not help out your future colleagues tax burden by providing a portion of the salary as an advance to get taxed at a lower bracket?
 
Why not help out your future colleagues tax burden by providing a portion of the salary as an advance to get taxed at a lower bracket?

What would you do if he/she bailed and signed with another group? Want to fight to get your money back? What do you say to your partners who are retiring before he/she arrives and are giving up money to pay someone currently doing no work for the group? With a slew of retirements in the last few years this was mentioned as well. What if it doesn’t work out and you need to get rid of him/her within the first year?

Has anyone heard of this actually happening for someone who wasn’t previously in the group (e.g. a group sends someone for cardiac fellowship and he/she rejoins after)? We asked all around and the answer was a resounding no and most just laughed when we mentioned it. Hard pass.
 
Except for the job opening that was available if you accepted right after residency, but was already filled by the time you finished fellowship.

I got the best job I could possibly imagine precisely because I didn't do a fellowship.


Same.
 
If the area you want to live in is a tough job market the fellowship helps. If your dream job is in rural Kansas or Iowa then I agree a fellowship isn’t likely needed.

I also agree timing is everything in finding a good job so fellowship or not there is a lot of luck involved in the process for most people
 
What would you do if he/she bailed and signed with another group? Want to fight to get your money back? What do you say to your partners who are retiring before he/she arrives and are giving up money to pay someone currently doing no work for the group? With a slew of retirements in the last few years this was mentioned as well. What if it doesn’t work out and you need to get rid of him/her within the first year?

Has anyone heard of this actually happening for someone who wasn’t previously in the group (e.g. a group sends someone for cardiac fellowship and he/she rejoins after)? We asked all around and the answer was a resounding no and most just laughed when we mentioned it. Hard pass.

In my previous (hospital-employed) group, this was offered to those in fellowship. It was actually in my offer letter (I think it was $1500 or $2000 per month until I started) and sample contract, but then left off when my final contract was sent to me to sign. That should have been my first clue that the new owners of the hospital were terrible people and bad things were getting ready to happen.
 
In my previous (hospital-employed) group, this was offered to those in fellowship. It was actually in my offer letter (I think it was $1500 or $2000 per month until I started) and sample contract, but then left off when my final contract was sent to me to sign. That should have been my first clue that the new owners of the hospital were terrible people and bad things were getting ready to happen.
...did they let you know they changed your contract before sending it to you to sign?
 
...did they let you know they changed your contract before sending it to you to sign?
Nope. Total bait and switch. The changes were made by the new hospital administrators, the other docs had no idea (and had similar **** pulled with them at their next contact renewal). Unfortunately, I didn't read the final one closely enough to spot the differences, as I had already read through the prelim contact and the offer letter thoroughly. They also changed my non-compete radius to encompass several counties surrounding the hospital, ensuring that I couldn't go elsewhere without moving.

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What would you do if he/she bailed and signed with another group? Want to fight to get your money back? What do you say to your partners who are retiring before he/she arrives and are giving up money to pay someone currently doing no work for the group? With a slew of retirements in the last few years this was mentioned as well. What if it doesn’t work out and you need to get rid of him/her within the first year?

Has anyone heard of this actually happening for someone who wasn’t previously in the group (e.g. a group sends someone for cardiac fellowship and he/she rejoins after)? We asked all around and the answer was a resounding no and most just laughed when we mentioned it. Hard pass.
I've heard of it happening, but the way it was explained to me is that it wasn't structured as advance pay related to the future employment contract, but a loan from the group to the individual. They might even have charged interest, I don't know. Obviously still some risk in loaning a future colleague some money. But doing it this way avoids entangling the upfront cash with the job contract.

I also wonder if the deal was presented as a loan, and the new hire thought of the "advance pay" as simply another line of red with a payment plan, just like his existing student loans, if he'd be quite as interested in taking on extra debt so close to the finish line. Because that's what he's really doing, is more spend-now-earn-later. Then again, doctors tend to make stupid financial decisions, so I don't know.
 
While CMS pays crap for cardiac anesthesia, they pay big bucks for open heart surgery, hence the former has strategic importance for hospitals and anesthesia groups. Pain doesn't.

Also, a cardiac fellowship will make one a better OR anesthesiologist. Pain won't.

The problem with Pain is that, if the person is unhappy with the post-fellowship job, it becomes a wasted year. It's like a fellowship in Palliative Care or Sleep: it's only worth it if one is happy practicing it. It's not really useful in the OR. It's a much bigger bet than Cardiac.

Maybe I am missing something...
I tend to think of it another way.
Any O.R. based fellowship is a waste since youre just another Anesthesiologist..
Pain/ICU/Addiction, you are a whole 'nother doctor.
100% peds jobs are largely at the academic centers.
Cardiac is just another anesthesiologist with just LONGER cases and surgeons with personality disorder.
 
What would you do if he/she bailed and signed with another group? Want to fight to get your money back? What do you say to your partners who are retiring before he/she arrives and are giving up money to pay someone currently doing no work for the group? With a slew of retirements in the last few years this was mentioned as well. What if it doesn’t work out and you need to get rid of him/her within the first year?

Has anyone heard of this actually happening for someone who wasn’t previously in the group (e.g. a group sends someone for cardiac fellowship and he/she rejoins after)? We asked all around and the answer was a resounding no and most just laughed when we mentioned it. Hard pass.

I have heard of it and it is not all that uncommon. It is not substantially different that a signing bonus, just paid in installments.
 
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