Fellowship hours

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DrDarwin

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Are fellowship hours similar to the hours residents put in during the 3-5 years on general surgery? Do fellows take the same amount of call? When I spent a week on a Plastics elective, the fellows put in tons of hours (not sure about call and weekends), but since they were doing exclusively Plastics and Reconstructive stuff, they seemed very satisfied. I only worked a week, however, so I have no idea if that week was representative. I realize that programs are unique and therefore differ in structure, but I would appreciate a general sentiment. Thanks.

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Are fellowship hours similar to the hours residents put in during the 3-5 years on general surgery? Do fellows take the same amount of call? When I spent a week on a Plastics elective, the fellows put in tons of hours (not sure about call and weekends), but since they were doing exclusively Plastics and Reconstructive stuff, they seemed very satisfied. I only worked a week, however, so I have no idea if that week was representative.

First, let’s clear up some terminology.

Fellowship is generally used to designate someone who has finished their training in a specialty and is now sub-specializing. One would think that if you finished 5 years of general surgery (or ENT, OMFS, etc.), then you would be doing a plastic fellowship. While technically it’s true, the ACGME still considers you a resident, not a fellow. I know it seems like splitting hairs, and I’m as guilty as the next about interchanging terms, but you can get into trouble by referring to yourself as the wrong thing (personal experience). I have also seen folks from the combined/integrated programs refer to themselves as “fellows” after they finish their 3 years of general surgery, and that really pisses of the attendings, especially the ones that did 5 years of general.

I generally refer to my plastic surgery training as a fellowship, but this is more just a shortcut way of telling someone that I did the 5 years of general surgery.

Once you finish plastics and decide to do something else, like craniofacial, you are considered a fellow by the ACGME (if you are in an ACGME accredited program. More on this below). Interestingly, if you finish general surgery and decide to do a hand fellowship, that is considered a fellowship and not a residency. Go figure.

In a plastics residency, whether you are combined/integrated or independent (after 5 years of training elsewhere), as a resident you are subject to the 80 hour work week. In reality most of the residents I know, including myself, ignore this to some extent. Plastic surgery tends to be populated by highly motivated people and they usually need to be told to go home. For me, even though I came through most of general surgery before the duty hour restriction, I worked harder and read more during my plastics time. I don’t think I was ever honest about the hours I logged on my timesheet and neither were my co-residents. It was sort of an unspoken rule that we just did the work until it was done. There was also a lot of stuff to learn and we loved our jobs. I was on first call 50% of the time during year one and second call 50% of the time during year two. Since it was classified as home call, it was easier to get around the 80 hour thing.

On to the “fellowship” portion.....

There are fellowships that are ACGME approved and those that are not. My craniofacial fellowship is one of the approved ones and is therefore subject to all the rules and regulations therein. I think I may have put in an 80 hour week once during the past year. I have residents on the service who take care of most of the housekeeping. I round on the patients I operate on, but they do all the paperwork. I’m treated pretty much like junior faculty and I have a lot more time dedicated to operating, reading, writing papers, going to meetings and looking for jobs. I take very little call and it’s all back-up call.

For non-ACGME fellowships, the hours and duties can be highly variable. Some are good programs while in others you are basically somebody’s indentured servant until your year is up. Some you will get to operate, others you’re just going to watch the attending. In some the call is reasonable, in some you’re going to be taking all the ER call for your attending. This isn’t a problem for plastics residencies because they’re all ACGME.
 
Thanks, Moravian. At my home hospital, the program is combined, so the "fellows" are not actually fellows, but rather PGY-4-6s. Still, the junior residents referred to them as fellows. I'm not sure if the attendings approved of this practice. In any event, it seemed like the senior residents took much less call, but, based on your experience, it sounds like they work just as hard as they did during the General Surgery part of their training. I asked because I am not sure I am passionate enough about Plastics to work so hard for so long. It's not wise to base such a decision on a week-long elective, though, so I am planning to spend a month this spring on the Plastics service and decide at that point. Thanks, again.
 
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Thanks, Moravian. At my home hospital, the program is combined, so the "fellows" are not actually fellows, but rather PGY-4-6s. Still, the junior residents referred to them as fellows. I'm not sure if the attendings approved of this practice. In any event, it seemed like the senior residents took much less call, but, based on your experience, it sounds like they work just as hard as they did during the General Surgery part of their training. I asked because I am not sure I am passionate enough about Plastics to work so hard for so long. It's not wise to base such a decision on a week-long elective, though, so I am planning to spend a month this spring on the Plastics service and decide at that point. Thanks, again.

Is the lifestyle after residency/fellowship typically considered grueling?

I was under the impression that (esp for an integrated program), a plastics residency would be significantly less grueling than that of general surgery/neurosurgery/ENT/ortho
 
Is the lifestyle after residency/fellowship typically considered grueling? I was under the impression that (esp for an integrated program), a plastics residency would be significantly less grueling than that of general surgery/neurosurgery/ENT/ortho

I'm not sure where you got the impression that a plastics residency would be less "grueling" than others. Everywhere I've been, the plastics residents work their butts off. At university programs, the plastics programs are usually very busy (as is ortho, general, neuro, etc.) A community program may not have all the trauma that's associated with a university, but that doesn't necessarily mean that lifestyle is better. Maybe you want to be a dermatologist?

Lifestyle after training is completely up to the individual. You could get a salaried job working for Kaiser Permanente working 40 hours a week and have them tell you how and when to take care of or operate on your patients.
 
The other surgical residents all say that PRS has the hardest schedule at my place. They say that after their month where they're up all night in the ER and taking cases to the OR at night and on the weekends. I'll add the caveat that we don't have NSG residents at our place (in medschool they had the worst schedule of anyone).

Most plastics residencies have small classes. That means that most places have busy call because there just aren't many people available to dilute the call pool.

I'll agree with Moravian -- you'd be happier in Derm.
 
I work harder in plastics than I ever did in general. The 80 hour work week doesn't exist (not that it did in general either) since we take home call which is another way of saying you'll be up all night and then operating all day.
Every residency is different but that's the way mine works and you know what...I love it! If you've gotten into plastics, it usually means you are a superstar (although some fall through the cracks...like me for instance). These are the residents who succeed in general surgery and on their free time publish, read, and ask for more work. I don't think it makes you a better plastic surgeon but it is the culture. To simplify my point, think of all of the people who get facial lacs and fractures, hand fractures, skin infections, open wounds and add that to the patients you are covering on the floor. If you are in a big university hospital, you can guarantee not to get any sleep.

My point is, you really have to love it to do it otherwise I agree with the comment about derm.
 
In a plastics residency, whether you are combined/integrated or independent (after 5 years of training elsewhere), as a resident you are subject to the 80 hour work week. In reality most of the residents I know, including myself, ignore this to some extent. Plastic surgery tends to be populated by highly motivated people and they usually need to be told to go home. For me, even though I came through most of general surgery before the duty hour restriction, I worked harder and read more during my plastics time. I don’t think I was ever honest about the hours I logged on my timesheet and neither were my co-residents. It was sort of an unspoken rule that we just did the work until it was done. There was also a lot of stuff to learn and we loved our jobs. I was on first call 50% of the time during year one and second call 50% of the time during year two. Since it was classified as home call, it was easier to get around the 80 hour thing.

Is this common across most/all plastic surgery residencies?
 
Is this common across most/all plastic surgery residencies?

I haven't been to all programs, but I have experience with 4 and yes, they were all like that. In my current academic practice, we do our best to stay within ACGME guidelines and do not ask our residents to do anything that would jeopardize the status of accreditation. That being said, I suspect that they do what I did when I was a resident, i.e., do the work and find a way to make the time sheets balance.

The previous post saying that the plastics residents are superstars (I fell through the cracks as well) is mostly true. Our residents would rather be doing things than going home and we usually have to make them leave when we know they've been in house for too long. If you're one of those people who try to duck work, you're going to be found out fairly fast. And believe me, there are at least 100 other people waiting to take your place.

By the way, once you're an attending, there is no such thing as an 80 work week.
 
forgive my naive ignorance, but when you say that you "get around the 80 hr/wk" do you mean you're working way more than that, or that you can fulfill some of those hours at home while on call?
another possibly ignorant question, i realize that all residencies have long hours, but with plastics does it get better (compared to other specialties) once you've finished residency? it's such an incredibly difficult field to get into, i was wondering if one of the reasons contributing to the competitiveness of plastics was due to the ability to have a comfortable work schedule. is there such thing as a 50-60 hour work week being a plastic surgeon?
 
forgive my naive ignorance, but when you say that you "get around the 80 hr/wk" do you mean you're working way more than that, or that you can fulfill some of those hours at home while on call?
another possibly ignorant question, i realize that all residencies have long hours, but with plastics does it get better (compared to other specialties) once you've finished residency? it's such an incredibly difficult field to get into, i was wondering if one of the reasons contributing to the competitiveness of plastics was due to the ability to have a comfortable work schedule. is there such thing as a 50-60 hour work week being a plastic surgeon?

"Getting around the 80 hour work week" means you work as much as you need to, but make sure that your time sheet reflects a dedication to following the letter of the law for the ACGME. Some people would call it lying.
 
I was under the impression that (esp for an integrated program), a plastics residency would be significantly less grueling than that of general surgery/neurosurgery/ENT/ortho

It can vary a lot. Most of Plastic Surgery and these other specialties are home call. Having to come into the ER for stupid things is it's own form of torture, but it beats the alternative.

I spent about 1/2 of my surgery residency doing Q2 in house at a level one trauma center. NOTHING in plastic surgery is like that for long blocks of time in a row (2-4 months at a time) like we used to do pre work hour rules. Orthopedics and Plastics can have bad runs doing ortho trauma or replants, but I think it tends to be more episodic
 
i realize that all residencies have long hours, but with plastics does it get better (compared to other specialties) once you've finished residency? it's such an incredibly difficult field to get into, i was wondering if one of the reasons contributing to the competitiveness of plastics was due to the ability to have a comfortable work schedule. is there such thing as a 50-60 hour work week being a plastic surgeon?

I'm sure somebody somewhere is working 50 hours a week, but it's nobody I know. It's currently 9:10 pm and I'm at the office doing my billing, catching up on my clinic notes, thinking about trying to finish a paper, and answering your question about work hours. My day started at 0730 in the OR.

Tomorrow I'll be rounding on todays post ops at 0600 in the University hospital, going to wound care rounds at another hospital, clinic afterwards until 3, and back to the university to clean up what I'm not going to get finished tonight. I have call interspersed through the week at two hospitals, a late clinic day for the craniofacial team, a couple of residents cases that I'm staffing, my own OR days on Thursday/Friday, and weekend rounds. Are you getting the idea? Yes, I have residents, but they need to be taught, there are conferences to prepare for, papers to write, a grant that needs finished, more paperwork that I could have imagined, meetings about stupid university things, etc.

I can only imagine what the private practice guys are going through to survive. They don't have residents and see most/all of the consults themselves, not to mention that most of the private guys in my area are taking an economic hit on their cosmetic cases. Maybe you should drop GSresident a line and see how many hours he's working.

If lifestyle is going to be an issue, I'll repeat some previous unsolicited advice: Go into derm. Or work for a big HMO.
 
thanks to all the practicing plastic surgeons who comment on here. Its extremely valuable input.
 
I'm not sure where you got the impression that a plastics residency would be less "grueling" than others. Everywhere I've been, the plastics residents work their butts off. At university programs, the plastics programs are usually very busy (as is ortho, general, neuro, etc.) A community program may not have all the trauma that's associated with a university, but that doesn't necessarily mean that lifestyle is better.

Interesting, I had a similar impression of plastics residency. Maybe it's because the residents just seemed a teensy bit happier? In my ER month (big university program), I actually never even saw the plastics resident called down.

Conversely, ortho/general/neuro all were regularly consulted and all looked equally miserable :laugh:
 
Maybe it's because the residents just seemed a teensy bit happier? In my ER month (big university program), I actually never even saw the plastics resident called down. Conversely, ortho/general/neuro all were regularly consulted and all looked equally miserable :laugh:

Some of the time spent in the ER depends on the call. At my fellowship program, we took face call once every three weeks with ENT and OMFS. Ortho did about 2/3 of the hand. Where I am now, we take face call every other week and I can tell you this weekend my residents didn't leave the hospital. The other issue is that we get called by ortho and neuro (and CT and general and urology and OB and surg onc) secondarily after they've evaluated the patients and think they need us.

I don't want to sound like I'm trying to justify how hard plastics residents work.....I think neuro actually has it the worst. But I have to agree, I think the plastics guys are happier and that's one of the things that drew me to the field. I originally was headed to cardiothoracic, but they are generally a bunch of miserable humans.
 
I don't want to sound like I'm trying to justify how hard plastics residents work

Hey, no problem. I'd agree neuro has it the worst. I guess I just never realized plastics was on par if not even more difficult than general/ortho/uro/ENT.

Sidenote: I took your unsolicited advice and went derm. :p I just find it interesting how the two fields that are usually 1-2 in terms of difficulty matching are so different in terms of lifestyle. (At least as a resident, not that residency lifestyle should in any way influence a decision on what to do with the remainder of one's career)
 
From plasticseducation.com (it's since been overrun with spam), I found these 4th year away experiences quite telling. Yes, it's certainly different trying to impress as a medical student but I get the feeling life as a resident isn't much cusher.


1. "Aways can be brutal. On mine I would get in around 430 am and stay until last case every night ~9-10pm. Then I took call every night as well. However, the place I went to kind of left it up to you how "involved" you wanted to be. I hardly did any "scut". Usually rounded, operated all day, went to clinic, saw consults if no cases in pm, etc... Look at it as an "audition" even though most tell you its not. To most places a known commodity is usually better than someone you talked to for 20 minutes and read their application for 5 min. Be at the hospital and be visible all the time. Scrub with the dept heads/chairs/pd etc... All that aside, if you don't go all out on your away you can totally shoot yourself in the foot. In that case your still a known commodity, just not in a good way."



2. "Same thing on my away. Not quite so bad--I got there around 5 most mornings and rounded/changed vacs/dressings/etc. and then operated all day, until 7 most days but sometimes after 9. I also helped with consults/clinic/whatever and made myself available to the on-call resident every night (but that being said it was rare that I got called late at night). I also took zero days off and worked every day that whole month straight. To add to the lunacy, I also made a point of doing social stuff outside the hospital with the residents. I did it this way because I knew that this rotation was my one shot--the only thing I could really control--in terms of highlighting the stuff that doesn't show up on paper. I realize in retrospect that this schedule was a bit ludicrous, but no matter what anyone says, away rotations are absolutely an audition-- even if you're only trying to get a letter from the department/division chair. It would have been mildly fatiguing if I hadn't really enjoyed what I was doing.

I'm not trying to freak anyone out, but the fact remains that this is the most competitive specialty in medicine. Grades and board scores just don't set you apart--all the serious candidates look really impressive on paper, so the best way to set yourself apart is to make yourself a known (badass) commodity. A high Step 1 score and a high class rank guarantee nothing. If you want a program to think you're worth ranking highly, that program needs to be convinced you're going to be their best resident. In light of this fact, if you're going to rotate somewhere then you need to be prepared to be a machine--a walking copy of Grabb & Smith's (with OR and people skills) who needs very little food and less sleep. There's no point to going to the time, expense, and trouble to do an away rotation if you aren't going to go balls-out.

I actually think being a plastics intern/resident where I rotated could be marginally less stressful than being a rotator, but you've got to pay your dues if you want to get a ticket to the Promised Land."



3. "I did one plastics month at my home institution and 3 visiting plastics rotations in a row. I went all out on every single one. During all 4 months I had to drag myself out of bed every day with 4 hours sleep and put myself in the shower to wake up. I was at the end of my rope the last month but finished up strong.

2 aways are good. 3 aways if you can handle it mentally and physically.

Aways are very very taxing and expensive, don't do more than 2 unless you really can handle it. It was the most difficult 4 months of my life. The last thing you want is to burn out during an away and then you look worse than if you never did an away there. You also have to take in consideration your in a new environment that you don't know where anything is. This adds to the stress greatly.

I matched at one of the places I did an away at."
 
Hot dang. The latest I stayed on my away was 6:30PM. (No it was not plastics :) )
 
Is there any time to workout/exercise during residency and after? I am in the habit of waking extremely early in the morning to work out. I have many health issues in my family-much of which are exacerbated by being overweight, so fitness is, and needs to continue to be apart of my life ! Thanks!
 
From plasticseducation.com (it's since been overrun with spam), I found these 4th year away experiences quite telling. Yes, it's certainly different trying to impress as a medical student but I get the feeling life as a resident isn't much cusher.


1. "Aways can be brutal. On mine I would get in around 430 am and stay until last case every night ~9-10pm. Then I took call every night as well. However, the place I went to kind of left it up to you how "involved" you wanted to be. I hardly did any "scut". Usually rounded, operated all day, went to clinic, saw consults if no cases in pm, etc... Look at it as an "audition" even though most tell you its not. To most places a known commodity is usually better than someone you talked to for 20 minutes and read their application for 5 min. Be at the hospital and be visible all the time. Scrub with the dept heads/chairs/pd etc... All that aside, if you don't go all out on your away you can totally shoot yourself in the foot. In that case your still a known commodity, just not in a good way."



2. "Same thing on my away. Not quite so bad--I got there around 5 most mornings and rounded/changed vacs/dressings/etc. and then operated all day, until 7 most days but sometimes after 9. I also helped with consults/clinic/whatever and made myself available to the on-call resident every night (but that being said it was rare that I got called late at night). I also took zero days off and worked every day that whole month straight. To add to the lunacy, I also made a point of doing social stuff outside the hospital with the residents. I did it this way because I knew that this rotation was my one shot--the only thing I could really control--in terms of highlighting the stuff that doesn't show up on paper. I realize in retrospect that this schedule was a bit ludicrous, but no matter what anyone says, away rotations are absolutely an audition-- even if you're only trying to get a letter from the department/division chair. It would have been mildly fatiguing if I hadn't really enjoyed what I was doing.

I'm not trying to freak anyone out, but the fact remains that this is the most competitive specialty in medicine. Grades and board scores just don't set you apart--all the serious candidates look really impressive on paper, so the best way to set yourself apart is to make yourself a known (badass) commodity. A high Step 1 score and a high class rank guarantee nothing. If you want a program to think you're worth ranking highly, that program needs to be convinced you're going to be their best resident. In light of this fact, if you're going to rotate somewhere then you need to be prepared to be a machine--a walking copy of Grabb & Smith's (with OR and people skills) who needs very little food and less sleep. There's no point to going to the time, expense, and trouble to do an away rotation if you aren't going to go balls-out.

I actually think being a plastics intern/resident where I rotated could be marginally less stressful than being a rotator, but you've got to pay your dues if you want to get a ticket to the Promised Land."



3. "I did one plastics month at my home institution and 3 visiting plastics rotations in a row. I went all out on every single one. During all 4 months I had to drag myself out of bed every day with 4 hours sleep and put myself in the shower to wake up. I was at the end of my rope the last month but finished up strong.

2 aways are good. 3 aways if you can handle it mentally and physically.

Aways are very very taxing and expensive, don't do more than 2 unless you really can handle it. It was the most difficult 4 months of my life. The last thing you want is to burn out during an away and then you look worse than if you never did an away there. You also have to take in consideration your in a new environment that you don't know where anything is. This adds to the stress greatly.

I matched at one of the places I did an away at."

:::::shudders:::::
 
This isn't unique to plastics by any means-- every surgical sub-i, particularly in a competitive field or program, will have the same description.
 
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