Fellowships

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E

espfactor

I wanted to start this thread to get people's info on the fellowships out there and which ones are better than others. Forgive my ignorance if I oversimplify in saying that I only know of MSK, sports, interventional spine, and interventional pain (anesth & PM&R). Please fill us in on which are better and your experiences on the interview trail...plus what they appear to be looking for in their applicants.

I only know of 3 interventional spine fellowships with detail:
1)Penn (Slipman): the best, period...but you WORK hard. He is the best in the field and for good reason.
2)RIC sports and spine: combined and lots of hands on
3)HSS: some political issues but guys who trained with Slipman so do the math.

Please correct me if I am wrong and fill in the blanks....:confused:

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I wanted to start this thread to get people's info on the fellowships out there and which ones are better than others. Forgive my ignorance if I oversimplify in saying that I only know of MSK, sports, interventional spine, and interventional pain (anesth & PM&R). Please fill us in on which are better and your experiences on the interview trail...plus what they appear to be looking for in their applicants.

I only know of 3 interventional spine fellowships with detail:
1)Penn (Slipman): the best, period...but you WORK hard. He is the best in the field and for good reason.
2)RIC sports and spine: combined and lots of hands on
3)HSS: some political issues but guys who trained with Slipman so do the math.

Please correct me if I am wrong and fill in the blanks....:confused:

I would really hesitate declaring one "the best". The best for what? MSK, sports, and pain are all similar but different. The "best" fellowship depends on what you want to do ultimately with your career. Slipman's fellowship is a good fellowship but if you are interested in sports, his is not "the best". He's also not ACGME accredited so if that's important for someone, then his is not "the best".

There are many factors to think about. There will be an article in the resident newsletter of the AAPM&R spring edition about this issue.

Now that there's opportunity for PM&R residents to pursue ACGME accreditation in sports medicine, things may change as well.

So bottom line: you need to figure out what you want to do with your career and what aspect of MSK/pain/sports you are interested in and what the purpose of doing a fellowship is for you. Many PM&R residents get jobs where they are trained to do injections so you may not need a fellowship if that's all you want to do. Others feel comfortable doing sports medicine without additional fellowship training. Some of it depends on what geographic area you want to end up in and what the credentialing committee of your ultimate employer looks for in a candidate. It can get pretty complicated and there's no one size fits all fellowship.

Hope this helps.
 
I was only speaking of interventional spine and as I understand it there are no interventional spine fellowships that are accredited as of yet. There are interventional PAIN fellowships and those are accredited, but I was not speaking of those. MSK, pain and spine are all quite different, and correct me if I wrote incorrectly but I only mentioned spine and in the world of interventional spine Slipman is revered as the best in the field, thus the certificates in his office from US news rating him as the best Interventional PM&R doc in the country for like 5 of the last 6 years and running. RIC's people for sports and spine trained with him if I'm not mistaken. I know you are from RIC, so can you ellaborate on the fellowship program, the guys that run it, the curriculum...
 
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> 1)Penn (Slipman): the best, period...but you WORK hard. He is the best in the field and for good reason.

I think many people would contest this assertion. Slipman is prolific in the volume of patients he sees, and Slipman himself is well read. It is debatable whether his training is the best available.

I agree with AXM that a significant factor is what you are looking for. Slipman's fellowship is one of several contenders for "best" if your goal is a high volume of interventional procedures. although there are several other fellowships that will give similar volume. If your criteria is academic development, sports medicine, ultrasound, electrodiagnostics, etc., then there are many fellowships that will train you better than Slipman's fellowship.

So, Slipman's fellowship is excellent for what it is (training you in a high volume of procedures), but calling it the best, period, is not a useful comment.

> 2)RIC sports and spine: combined and lots of hands on

I am the current fellow at RIC, and for me it has been an unequivocally positive experience. The quality and breadth of mentorship is unbelievable. Drs Press, Plastaras, Rittenberg, Lento, Ihm, Fitzgerald, Smeal, Fonda, Fraley- all of these people could be terrific fellowship directors in their own right, but to have the cumulative exposure to all of them makes this an amazing experience. I wouldn't trade my year at RIC for anything.
That said, the RIC fellowship targets a very specific type of candidate. They pride themselves on creating academic leaders, and indeed many of their fellows have gone on to have very successful fellowships themselves- Venu Akothota in Colorado, Stu Willick in Utah, Larry Chou in Philadelphia, Paul Lento and Wes Smeal at RIC, and Heidi Prather in St Louis (technically, she wasn't a fellow, but she did come up through the RIC system, and we like to claim her as part of our family, because she's pretty awesome). I plan on starting a fellowship in Arkansas within the next few years. So for me, this was a once in a lifetime opportunity, and landed me a dream job in Arkansas. But it's not for everybody- not everyone's goal is to be an academic leader.

3)HSS: some political issues but guys who trained with Slipman so do the math.

Who from HSS trained with Slipman? Most of their faculty themselves did the HSS fellowship- I know that the younger Lutz, Solomon, Cooke, and a few others are fellows from HSS. I think that Greg Lutz trained at Mayo.

Many residents from my residency program have trained at HSS, and my impression is that their training differs quite a bit from the Slipman model. Certainly some of their fellows who have stayed on as faculty, like Cooke and Solomon, are very good people.

If you have additional questions about fellowships, I strongly suggest obtaining a copy of the PASSOR fellowship guide through the PASSOR website. That is the best starting point for learning more about the fellowships available.
 
As you can see from the above post, physiatry is still young enough that there are discernable "blood lines" when it comes to training. I think that the first point in your decision tree is choosing whether to stay "in the family" or cross-fertilize into another specialty.

They are some outstanding physiatry fellowship of various breeds. You also have the option of exploring fellowships in completely different specialties--ie anesthesiology or neurology.

Next, with respect to procedurally-based fellowships, the second point in the decision tree is answering the question, "Do I want to be an 'interventional physiatrist' who treats pain?" or, "Do I want to be a pain doctor (physiatrist)?" It's a very subtle distinction, but one that I am increasing more aware of as I become established in the field.

In my mind, the answer to questions lies in whether or not you want to treat any pain condition regardless of etiology: Cancer pain, CRPS, atypical facial pain, migraines, chronic daily headache, post-mastectomy/thoractomy/sternotomy/amputation pain, refractory ilioinguinal/inguinal neuralgia, post-herpetic neuralgia, painful diabetic peripheral neuralgia, etc then you're probably leaning more towards ACGME-accredited pain fellowships. If you're more interested in pain largely limited to the musculoskeletal system and axial spine, then you're probably leaning towards "Interventional Spine" type fellowships.
 
I checked the HSS website once again. NONE of their attendings trained with Slipman. Like I said, though, they do have some excellent clinician's there- there are many well trained interventionalists who have not trained with Slipman.
 
They actually have a US News category for best interventionist PM&R physician? Shocking....
 
Slipman is revered as the best in the field, thus the certificates in his office from US news rating him as the best Interventional PM&R doc in the country for like 5 of the last 6 years and running.

He must be the best then....come on...you buy into this stuff?

I respect Slipman but the US news rating means nothing.

And as Drusso stated, I agree there is a difference between "pain medicine" physicians and "interventional physiatrists."
 
They actually have a US News category for best interventionist PM&R physician? Shocking....

Can you send the link for that info. I am surprised that USNews would have that sort of ranking
 
Here is Slipman's webpage:

http://pennhealth.com/Wagform/MainPage.aspx?config=provider&P=PP&ID=1722

No mention of any US News rankings, which I must assume was mentioned facetiously, since as far as I know, no such thing exists.

Again, Slipman is extremely well regarded, sees a tremendous volume of patients, is well published, has been a strong advocate for interventional physiatry, is a terrific speaker, and has trained a large number of excellent physiatrists. I have nothing bad to say about the man, and on the two occasions I have met him, he was very kind (not that he would remember me).

That said, there is no need to create artificial criteria to establish him as the #1 interventional physiatrist in the country. For the type of practice he has, he is terrific. I am sure he would be the first to admit that amongst the PASSOR fellowships, Jay Smith's fellowship is better for sports, that Michael Andary's fellowship is better for electrodiagnostics, that the RIC fellowship is better for kinetic chain evaluation, that Heidi Prather's fellowship is better for integrating into an orthopedic practice, etc.

You can't answer a question like "who is the best" without clarifying what the best means.
 
Sorry for any misinterpretation of my reply to the US News reference, I was trying to sarcastically call BS to the claims of the original poster.

I guess you could get one of those fake magazine covers done up with Photoshop and hang that on the wall, that would be sweet.
 
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Here is Slipman's webpage:

http://pennhealth.com/Wagform/MainPage.aspx?config=provider&P=PP&ID=1722

No mention of any US News rankings, which I must assume was mentioned facetiously, since as far as I know, no such thing exists.

Again, Slipman is extremely well regarded, sees a tremendous volume of patients, is well published, has been a strong advocate for interventional physiatry, is a terrific speaker, and has trained a large number of excellent physiatrists. I have nothing bad to say about the man, and on the two occasions I have met him, he was very kind (not that he would remember me).

That said, there is no need to create artificial criteria to establish him as the #1 interventional physiatrist in the country. For the type of practice he has, he is terrific. I am sure he would be the first to admit that amongst the PASSOR fellowships, Jay Smith's fellowship is better for sports, that Michael Andary's fellowship is better for electrodiagnostics, that the RIC fellowship is better for kinetic chain evaluation, that Heidi Prather's fellowship is better for integrating into an orthopedic practice, etc.

You can't answer a question like "who is the best" without clarifying what the best means.

Well said, the fellowships have their own identity and you need to figure out which identity you want to take on post-fellowship. You would think all of those things mentioned would be taught through the residency, but that is a different argument all together
 
:( i'm astonished...this thread was started to gather info on fellowships but people seem more interested in refuting other people's postings and trying to prove me wrong rather than contribute info about fellowships. If you don't believe me about the "ranking" go down to his office at penn, it's on the first floor, go into the main office, turn left and then make another left at the end of the hall, then turn right, on the back of his walls, next to his diplomas and pictures of him fishing with his son in Florida, you will see the "diploma/certificates" from what I remember as like best doctor or US news something or rather (could be mistaken) on his wall. Said "Best Interventional PM&R" and as I recall there were about 5. I have tried in the past to find if there was a link for it but never could. I understand that it doesn't make someone the "best" so FINE, get over it already, how about he is really, really good, is that less offensive? Isn't every year there some crap about the best physicians in the country ranking somewhere just can't remember the specifics...so do me a favor, check your egos and just provide constructive advice here. If you don't think a program is the best, please write which one's you think are better and why...that's all I asked from the beginning. So do me a favor and please stop replying with anger...last I checked, we were all colleagues here.

If you are unhappy when hearing that someone is saying some place is better than yours, it is no attack on you...I don't know you. I am a resident interested in hearing what other people with more experience than myself have to say about what is out there.

Perhaps this is better, what are some of the better programs out there for the particulars of interventional...I feel like I belong at PCU the way I have to phrase myself
 
Allow me to correct myself in that I was wrong it was not US News it was Best Doctors in America and please refer to this link and scroll to the bottom.

http://pennhealth.com/Wagform/MainPage.aspx?config=provider&P=PP&ID=1722

I am done with my "BS" and my "artificial criteria" as it was put, since apparently it was not, I remembered it being US News originally, but I was close...can we all just get along now and get back to contributing.

I would be interested to hear about Emory and HSS's programs if anyone has any info...
 
:( i'm astonished...this thread was started to gather info on fellowships but people seem more interested in refuting other people's postings and trying to prove me wrong rather than contribute info about fellowships. If you don't believe me about the "ranking" go down to his office at penn, it's on the first floor, go into the main office, turn left and then make another left at the end of the hall, then turn right, on the back of his walls, next to his diplomas and pictures of him fishing with his son in Florida, you will see the "diploma/certificates" from what I remember as like best doctor or US news something or rather (could be mistaken) on his wall. Said "Best Interventional PM&R" and as I recall there were about 5. I have tried in the past to find if there was a link for it but never could. I understand that it doesn't make someone the "best" so FINE, get over it already, how about he is really, really good, is that less offensive? Isn't every year there some crap about the best physicians in the country ranking somewhere just can't remember the specifics...so do me a favor, check your egos and just provide constructive advice here. If you don't think a program is the best, please write which one's you think are better and why...that's all I asked from the beginning. So do me a favor and please stop replying with anger...last I checked, we were all colleagues here.

If you are unhappy when hearing that someone is saying some place is better than yours, it is no attack on you...I don't know you. I am a resident interested in hearing what other people with more experience than myself have to say about what is out there.

Perhaps this is better, what are some of the better programs out there for the particulars of interventional...I feel like I belong at PCU the way I have to phrase myself


EAZZZZy, killer. CONTEXT my friend. IF you are a resident and you make a statement that X is the BEST fellowship and Dr. X is the BEST interventional PM&R physician out there, then obviously the vast number of current fellows, past fellows, past residents, experienced physiatrist's (that are on this board) are going to give you a little educating. (maybe some come across more sarcastic than others). Bottom line, Slipman IS one of the best, and I am sure his fellowship IS very good, and his BEST DOCTOR awards are obviously well deserved. There is NO true ranking among the fellowships and as I said before, it is what YOU want to do. Most if not all the fellowship directors are very good people and excellent teachers, but of course they only teach what they know and not all of them are doing the fancy things such as stimulators, pumps, RF, cervical, ultrasound, catheter slinking, etc. Rehabsportsdoc hit it on the nose in his explanation. Can slipman guide a needle into the hip joint using ultrasound, does he do EMG, does he believe in assessing the kinetic chain, if the answer to those is no and you are ok with it, then his fellowship might be for you. What do YOU want to do and we can lead you in the direction of a fellowship that might suit you....
 
espfactor, I thought I was being polite.

The comments you made were either grossly inaccurate (in the case of the HSS fellowship), or meaningless (in the case of the Slipman fellowship). So while you may feel we are being nitpicky, the starting point of the discussion has to be clarify inaccuracies. The forums here are rampant with misinformation, so it is important to prevent lore from developing based on misinformation.

As for rankings- I think your pursuit of a ranking system is a fruitless effort. The rankings have essentially no meaning for residency programs, and would have even less meaning for fellowship programs. The programs are so diverse in design that there is no linear axis on which align the fellowships. Asking whether, say, Jay Smith's fellowship is better than Curtis Slipman's fellowship would be like asking whether the 1985 Bears are better than the 1998 Yankees- they are different categories.

As for the need to be "politically correct"- the biggest problem with these forums are that misinformation is constantly spread by people who haven't taken the time to research their posts. This creates a lore about programs that isn't warranted. Perhaps as you become invested in your practice you will appreciate the damage that a false reputation can do to a program. You would do well to not make unqualified comments about programs- it doesn't reflect well upon you.

> If you don't believe me about the "ranking" go down to his office at penn

Again, totally misinformed.

If you haven't noticed, there are lots of "Best of Lists" available, which are largely reputation based publications that are sold to magazines. Curtis Slipman lists this on his website, and obviously the US News wasn't one of them. And, for what it's worth, the US News rankings for Rehab aren't very meaningful- they are based completely on reputation score, are ranking inpatient hospitals only, and are largely biased to hospitals with large alumni bases and lags 10 years or more behind reality.

> so do me a favor, check your egos and just provide constructive advice here.

Ok- here is some constructive advice- research something before you post.
 
more constructive feedback for anyone considering a career in interventional spine care

The one thing I've learned in my fellowship is that words matter. Everyone invests a lot of emotional energy toward what procedures they learn and how much volume they see. I think this is a misplaced approach.

Most flouroscopically guided procedures are a variation on a theme- they all rely on recognizing the relevant anatomy and having good needle control

The more important skills take time. Those include:

1. Appropriate indications for injections
2. Alternative options for injections
3. Management of the patients beyond the needle

It is in #3 that I find most physicians don't spend enough time. If you have ever treated patient with spine mediated pain, one of the first things you should learn is that words matter. Just today we had a big discussion about how a patient misinterpreted our discussion about a large central disk herniation, and how this patient now thinks she needs surgery. Words matter.

Words matter. It doesn't matter if you understand what you are trying to say- what matters is how your audience may interpret your words. Words matter. You need to interpret how your words may taken in by people reading your words.

So, you may be wondering why people are jumping down your throat because you made comments about a few different fellowships without bothering to research the accuracy of your comments. The reason is because words matter. There are many impressionable medical students and residents who may not be able to discern the veracity of different posts from one another, and the spread of misinformation can have a more lasting impact than the truth. Words matter.

So, if your goal is to become a better physician in the treating of patients with spine problems, I would say a useful starting point would be to appreciate the value of how your words may me interpreted. If you making a flippant and poorly substantiated comment to a patient, it may have lasting consequences.
 
Now does anyone have anything to contribute about an actual fellowship or must we continue to be lectured about "words"... Maybe I should start a post about "gross inaccuracies" or better yet how about one on whether or not Curtis Slipman actual got honors from Best Physician...I know who could start it:laugh:

Thanks for the post spondy14 and I feel ya, and point taken...What programs are known for more private practice/MSK kinda interventional stuff?
 
Now does anyone have anything to contribute about an actual fellowship or must we continue to be lectured about "words"... Maybe I should start a post about "gross inaccuracies" or better yet how about one on whether or not Curtis Slipman actual got honors from Best Physician...I know who could start it:laugh:

Thanks for the post spondy14 and I feel ya, and point taken...What programs are known for more private practice/MSK kinda interventional stuff?

Windsor's fellowship is excellent and has produced some of the program directors for other fellowships.
 
can't help but state something in defense of ESPfactor. words ARE important, but there is also freedom of speech. I don't log onto here expecting everyone has done "research" this is studentdoctor for pete's sake and is about people's impressions, people's opinons, why do you think this is all anonymous. Just like best doctor and us news are people's opinions about what to rank first. It is not fruitless to form opinions and discuss them, if it is all taken with a grain of salt. When espfactor stated slipman was the best, I realized this is only ESPfactor's opinion. The way to debate it is to post your own critique of slipman not to negate espfactor's right to say who he thinks is the best.
 
Not sure why this thread has degenerated into this; if you are asking for help on the boards having an abrasive attitude does not help. whether Slipman is the best or not is irrelevant in my opinion - nobody is refuting that he is considered among the best. and honestly when considering fellowships in sports and spine would you just apply to ONE fellowship that is the best? How many of us applied to just one college/med school/residency/fellowship? I'm sure that rehab_sports doc does not need my support but he (?) has contributed so much on this board that he does not deserve to be called out this way. :thumbdown:


can't help but state something in defense of ESPfactor. words ARE important, but there is also freedom of speech. I don't log onto here expecting everyone has done there "research" this is studentdoctor for pete's sake and is about people's impressions, people's opinons, why do you think this is all anonymous. Just like best doctor and us news are people's opinions about what to rank first. It is not fruitless but helps us all strive to improve ourselves. When espfactor stated slipman was the best, I realized this is ESPfactor's opinion. rehab_sports doc you have done nothing but breathe fire down espfactor's neck for posting his opinion. Why don't you counter him by posting your own opinions of why Slipman is not the best rather than negating his very right to post. Or maybe you are afraid to criticize his model directly even under anonymynity.
 
when I first saw this post I knew it would generate quite a bit of discussion. there are a lot of opinions on this subject. In all fairness all of us have invested a lot of time into acquiring our respective fellowships including multiple interviews and networking, therefore we all have opinions regarding this subject. Unfortunately for espfactor he made a very strong statement in his original post. No one is likely to try and outright refute his statements, rather it is probably best to moderate one's comments so that they can be productive.

As has been stated already on this thread there are many great programs, some are better for specific reasons and based on particular interests.

We need paz here for one of his characteristic freak-outs...
 
i learned very early in my young career that its all too easy to be abrasive and strong willed through email/anonymous forum. but in the end, you might end up just shooting yourself in the foot. in this case, the thread has degenerated. maybe if we all swallow our pride we can still get something useful out of it. i for one am extremely interesed in its original purpose - gathering info about fellowships.

axm,rehabsportsdr, drusso, etc have alluded to how each fellowship has its own character, strengths and weaknesses. i know it's a very broad topic, but perhaps you all would be able to share some info about the programs you're more familiar with.

maybe we can salvage this thing yet!
 
I think that people get a little defensive about their training and start pulling out the stereotypes. You need to apply broadly. Fellowship training is, by nature, less standardized than residency training. Shop around.
 
can't help but state something in defense of ESPfactor. words ARE important, but there is also freedom of speech.

People can say whatever they want. But if it is inaccurate, it is important to point out the inaccuracies. Many of you are residents, fellows, or attendings, and probably have had the experience I have had, when prospective medical students come to interview, and they are misinformed because they have trouble separating the truth from ignorant posts. I think people who read the forums have a responsibility to correct inaccuracies at they emerge.

> I don't log onto here expecting everyone has done "research" this is studentdoctor for pete's sake and is about people's impressions, people's opinons

I respectfully disagree. Espfactor stated certain things as fact that were easily verifiable, but he didn't bother to look them up. This is lazy, and can lead to urban legend that is hard to erase.

As for Slipman being #1- that is just meaningless, and ultimately who cares.

As for the attendings at HSS and RIC being trained by Slipman- both are incorrect. Again, this is not an especially big deal- I was simply pointing out the inaccuracy of both comments. For the record, none of the attendings at either RIC or HSS trained with Slipman, and are not derivative of Slipman. They both have well trained attendings who trained at other institutions.

> why do you think this is all anonymous.

These forums aren't as anonymous as you might think. Something residents might consider before they start mouthing off at current or future fellowship directors.

> espfactor stated slipman was the best, I realized this is only ESPfactor's opinion. The way to debate it is to post your own critique of slipman not to negate espfactor's right to say who he thinks is the best

I pointed out the inaccuracies.

I also have made comments about 5 or 6 different fellowships within this thread- HSS, Wash U, RIC, Slipman, Mayo, Michigan St. I would like to think I have contributed information that would be useful for a resident who was seeking information about fellowship programs.
 
Since Rehab-Sports.Esp seems only interested in picking apart every post line by line to defend himself and lecturing this thread has completely degenerated into people arguing. I am going to start a new thread about the topic. Please refer to Fellowship Facts. Thanks:cool:
 
These forums aren't as anonymous as you might think. Something residents might consider before they start mouthing off at current or future fellowship directors.

Do you have reason to believe that any poster's anonymity has been compromised? If you are aware of such information, then I would be very interested in knowing as part of what makes this is forum a useful resource to medical students, residents, fellows, and the community at large is the ability to maintain their anonymity. Some people choose to be relatively more or less "transparent" with their identities, but revealing of personal information, threats, or coercion is a violation of the User Agreement.
 
Since Rehab-Sports.Esp seems only interested in picking apart every post line by line to defend himself and lecturing this thread has completely degenerated into people arguing.


Well you did have quite a few gross inaccuracies. I don't think he was being mean spirited or rude.
 
Do you have reason to believe that any poster's anonymity has been compromised? If you are aware of such information, then I would be very interested in knowing as part of what makes this is forum a useful resource to medical students, residents, fellows, and the community at large is the ability to maintain their anonymity. Some people choose to be relatively more or less "transparent" with their identities, but revealing of personal information, threats, or coercion is a violation of the User Agreement.

It's like you said, the decision to be relatively outed or not is more personal and not the result of mailcious intent. However, if you're really good at looking at webpage source code, I'm sure there is a way to track posts to the IP or serve address, and work your way back to which institution someone is posting from.

It doesn't help if you have a tag on where you are from, and people at your program know your sig :laugh:
 
I think rehab_sports_dr is right on the money and pretty much agree with his posts. The attitude the original poster had just rubbed folks the wrong way and he still doesn't see it.

Also, on the security front, if you read enough posts and follow the answers to particular questions you can narrow down the possibilities of whom might be behind the "username".
 
With HSS, besides the fantastic reputation of the hospital and that it's one of the only 2 PM&R Sports & Spine fellowships in NYC, what makes this fellowship unique? Although I have no intention in practicing or living in the city, I would like to get more info about this fellowship.
 
One particular strength of the HSS fellowship is exposure to the HSS spine radiologists. My understanding is that the spine radiologists have weekly rounds, and by reputation they are outstanding.
 
yes, i agree rehabsportdoc you have posted helpful information on here about the fellowships so thanks. you did point out the inaccuracies. I suppose it was the phrasing you used towards espfactor, "do you wonder why so many people are down your throat" that made me feel nothing needed to be stuck down his throat for him stating an opinion, also your calling his posts and opinions "fruitless" or "meaningless" I would call his opinions a "starting point for further discussion." your words towards him seemed overbearing... see how important words are. ;) Anyway, for the internet wizards looking up source code or the gossipers sharing people's identities on here with others... this is totally inappropriate. Somewhat akin to a HIPA violation. I agree with Drusso it violates the purpose of this site as a safe space for anonmous discussions. It was not my intent to "mouth off" towards future fellowship directors. I wish you success in becoming a fellwship director... Keep in mind those less experience than you should be able to critique and question their superiors lest your future fellowship could be deemed a malignant one. I realize my first reply may have seemed like mouthing off which is why i edited it, although someone had already quoted it before i changed it. Anyhow, if you can't mouth off on here where can you? Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experiences on here rehabsportsdoc.

can't help but state something in defense of ESPfactor. words ARE important, but there is also freedom of speech.

People can say whatever they want. But if it is inaccurate, it is important to point out the inaccuracies. Many of you are residents, fellows, or attendings, and probably have had the experience I have had, when prospective medical students come to interview, and they are misinformed because they have trouble separating the truth from ignorant posts. I think people who read the forums have a responsibility to correct inaccuracies at they emerge.

> I don't log onto here expecting everyone has done "research" this is studentdoctor for pete's sake and is about people's impressions, people's opinons

I respectfully disagree. Espfactor stated certain things as fact that were easily verifiable, but he didn't bother to look them up. This is lazy, and can lead to urban legend that is hard to erase.

As for Slipman being #1- that is just meaningless, and ultimately who cares.

As for the attendings at HSS and RIC being trained by Slipman- both are incorrect. Again, this is not an especially big deal- I was simply pointing out the inaccuracy of both comments. For the record, none of the attendings at either RIC or HSS trained with Slipman, and are not derivative of Slipman. They both have well trained attendings who trained at other institutions.

> why do you think this is all anonymous.

These forums aren't as anonymous as you might think. Something residents might consider before they start mouthing off at current or future fellowship directors.

> espfactor stated slipman was the best, I realized this is only ESPfactor's opinion. The way to debate it is to post your own critique of slipman not to negate espfactor's right to say who he thinks is the best

I pointed out the inaccuracies.

I also have made comments about 5 or 6 different fellowships within this thread- HSS, Wash U, RIC, Slipman, Mayo, Michigan St. I would like to think I have contributed information that would be useful for a resident who was seeking information about fellowship programs.
 
When making decisions about fellowships, what to do?, who the best is, or even how to structure you residency training prior to fellowship, residents/med students (including those recently matched) need to get an accurate view on the role of Physiatry in the medical community and how that role is perceived by patients and other physicians as of 2007.

First of all, what is Interventional Physiatry/Spine? Most will say that it is a Physiatrist who takes care of patients with Orthopadic spinal pain through conservative measures including the use of some basic injections. But, what is the scope of these procedures? What can be expected in terms of technical competency? What is the knowledge base? Personally, I think this term should be done away with/discouraged unless our field chooses to fully embrace and define it.

To say Slipman has the best interventional spine fellowship may be accurate from a certain line of thinking. One has to remember that in the early to mid 90's, Physiatrists were lucky to get any MSK/Spine training at all during residency, much less get quality MSK/Spine training. In that era virtually no Physiatrists got to do spinal injections during residency. So, if you wanted to become an interventionalist back then, you had to do either a gas fellowship (essentially closed to Physiatrists in the 90s), or train with a Physiatrist who was brave enough to have started performing interventional pain procedures. Slipman, Windsor, Saul brothers, Dreyfuss, Lagattuta were probably the frontrunners here. Concerning the research contribution from the Physiatry world regarding interventional pain management procedures, the greatest contributions have likely come from Slipman and Dreyfuss, thus the reputations.

Fast forward to 2007. Knowing some Physiatrists that trained at Slipman's program, I have been told that his fellows do a good volume of MSK type EMGs, use algorithms heavily weighted on evidenced based treatments, learn to read spinal CTs/MRIs, only perform transforaminals (no interlaminars) and that the fellows themselves do not perform the Vertebroplasties or Percutaneous Disc Decompressions. You will also participate in his ongoing research.

Regarding the procedures, what if you already logged 200-300 transforaminals during residency? What if you did 8-12 months in sports/spine/MSK? What if you did over 400 EMGs during residency and learned to read MRIs? A whole brutal year of fellowship to log 10+ RFs and 10+ discograms? Would any interventional spine program still be the best? What if you've decided that after fellowship you don't want to work for a surgeon or be an employee of a "spine center" and now realize that you don't know how to implant stims or do sympathetic blocks. What if you want to live in a desirable area that is saturated with pain interventionalists such that you cannot feasibly treat only "spine" patients. What if cervical transforaminals really fall out of favor. Uh oh, you never learned how to do cervical interlaminars or how to use epidural catheters.

As Physiatrists, here is how we would like to be perceived by patients and other physicians:
-Superior knowledge of anatomy, kinesiology, functional biomechanics and rehabilitation of the musculoskeletal system and spine combined with sound interventional and electrodiagnostic skills leads to a complete diagnosis and greater functional outcomes in a conservative, cost effective manner.

Now, the perceived reality:
-Physiatrists do alot of nothing during residency. When they go out into practice, they get snatched up by Spine/Neurosurgeons to take care of alot of the easy conservative care to keep the patients in the practice and to write the scripts for PT. They can also do some basic injections but their technical skills are all over the map and in general they really struggle with anything more advanced. I would not trust my community Physiatrist to do anything to my or my patient's neck. If the patient absolutely needs it, I guess I'll refer them to the pain doc down the street.

Now, I'm exaggerating, but unfortunately, in most community settings the perception in scenario B is the reality. An example from real life. The other day I saw a new pt in the clinic. She was a "low back and total body pain" patient with heavy psychological overlay. She had been referred by a Physiatrist for evaluation for an intrathecal pump trial. The referring Physiatrist is an "interventional spine" guy. He saw the patient for consult only, before referring to our group. The funny thing is, I consider myself a "spine guy" as well. I just happen to work in a pain group. Being a "spine specialist", he should have something unique to offer the patient or some special insight into her diagnosis and rehabilitation right? Well, needless to say, the patient was quite disappointed/unimpressed with the referring Physiatrist and in her consultation with me, referred to him as a "PT with an MD". This type of situation tends to happen every now and then from various referral sources.

So, what's the real point of this long winded post? Physiatry has advanced considerably since the late 80s to mid 90s. Many Physiatrists no longer have to go through an entire residency devoid of MSK/spine/interventional training and then train for another year with 1 of a few Spine/MSK experts to become an expert themselves. A higher standard is expected today. If you want to call yourself a "spine guy" or "Interventional Physiatrist" to justify a boutique type practice, then so be it, but you better have some special/far advanced skills to offer that are quite evident to patients, surgeons, PCPs, pain docs. For quite some time now, Physiatrists have been touting our approach MSK/Occ med/Spine and Pain Management as superior without ensuring that the majority (>50% at least) of new grads can deliver the goods.

By reintegrating PASSOR, creating a spine track at the annual meeting and renaming the AAPMR's journal, The Academy has made it clear that it wants Physiatrists to be known as the de facto experts in non-operative spine and musculoskeletal care. Whether we have the commitment and drive to make good on these lofty goals remains to be seen. Handing down new ACGME requirements through the ABPMR would likely be the necessary final step. You want to be competitive and help the academy achieve its goals (regarding spine care in particular)?, then get as much MSK training as you can during residency. If your program offers poor MSK/spine training and/or no funding to attend the right conferences, then agitate for change. Follow up your base training with a gas fellowship at places like the Cleveland Clinic or Hopkins, or a highly interventional procedurally diverse PM&R fellowship like Windsor's. For those newly matched, things are likely to have evolved even further when you look for fellowships in 2010.
 
Very well said.

When making decisions about fellowships, what to do?, who the best is, or even how to structure you residency training prior to fellowship, residents/med students (including those recently matched) need to get an accurate view on the role of Physiatry in the medical community and how that role is perceived by patients and other physicians as of 2007.

First of all, what is Interventional Physiatry/Spine? Most will say that it is a Physiatrist who takes care of patients with Orthopadic spinal pain through conservative measures including the use of some basic injections. But, what is the scope of these procedures? What can be expected in terms of technical competency? What is the knowledge base? Personally, I think this term should be done away with/discouraged unless our field chooses to fully embrace and define it.

To say Slipman has the best interventional spine fellowship may be accurate from a certain line of thinking. One has to remember that in the early to mid 90's, Physiatrists were lucky to get any MSK/Spine training at all during residency, much less get quality MSK/Spine training. In that era virtually no Physiatrists got to do spinal injections during residency. So, if you wanted to become an interventionalist back then, you had to do either a gas fellowship (essentially closed to Physiatrists in the 90s), or train with a Physiatrist who was brave enough to have started performing interventional pain procedures. Slipman, Windsor, Saul brothers, Dreyfuss, Lagattuta were probably the frontrunners here. Concerning the research contribution from the Physiatry world regarding interventional pain management procedures, the greatest contributions have likely come from Slipman and Dreyfuss, thus the reputations.

Fast forward to 2007. Knowing some Physiatrists that trained at Slipman's program, I have been told that his fellows do a good volume of MSK type EMGs, use algorithms heavily weighted on evidenced based treatments, learn to read spinal CTs/MRIs, only perform transforaminals (no interlaminars) and that the fellows themselves do not perform the Vertebroplasties or Percutaneous Disc Decompressions. You will also participate in his ongoing research.

Regarding the procedures, what if you already logged 200-300 transforaminals during residency? What if you did 8-12 months in sports/spine/MSK? What if you did over 400 EMGs during residency and learned to read MRIs? A whole brutal year of fellowship to log 10+ RFs and 10+ discograms? Would any interventional spine program still be the best? What if you've decided that after fellowship you don't want to work for a surgeon or be an employee of a "spine center" and now realize that you don't know how to implant stims or do sympathetic blocks. What if you want to live in a desirable area that is saturated with pain interventionalists such that you cannot feasibly treat only “spine” patients. What if cervical transforaminals really fall out of favor. Uh oh, you never learned how to do cervical interlaminars or how to use epidural catheters.

As Physiatrists, here is how we would like to be perceived by patients and other physicians:
-Superior knowledge of anatomy, kinesiology, functional biomechanics and rehabilitation of the musculoskeletal system and spine combined with sound interventional and electrodiagnostic skills leads to a complete diagnosis and greater functional outcomes in a conservative, cost effective manner.

Now, the perceived reality:
-Physiatrists do alot of nothing during residency. When they go out into practice, they get snatched up by Spine/Neurosurgeons to take care of alot of the easy conservative care to keep the patients in the practice and to write the scripts for PT. They can also do some basic injections but their technical skills are all over the map and in general they really struggle with anything more advanced. I would not trust my community Physiatrist to do anything to my or my patient's neck. If the patient absolutely needs it, I guess I’ll refer them to the pain doc down the street.

Now, I'm exaggerating, but unfortunately, in most community settings the perception in scenario B is the reality. An example from real life. The other day I saw a new pt in the clinic. She was a "low back and total body pain" patient with heavy psychological overlay. She had been referred by a Physiatrist for evaluation for an intrathecal pump trial. The referring Physiatrist is an “interventional spine” guy. He saw the patient for consult only, before referring to our group. The funny thing is, I consider myself a “spine guy” as well. I just happen to work in a pain group. Being a “spine specialist”, he should have something unique to offer the patient or some special insight into her diagnosis and rehabilitation right? Well, needless to say, the patient was quite disappointed/unimpressed with the referring Physiatrist and in her consultation with me, referred to him as a “PT with an MD”. This type of situation tends to happen every now and then from various referral sources.

So, what’s the real point of this long winded post? Physiatry has advanced considerably since the late 80s to mid 90s. Many Physiatrists no longer have to go through an entire residency devoid of MSK/spine/interventional training and then train for another year with 1 of a few Spine/MSK experts to become an expert themselves. A higher standard is expected today. If you want to call yourself a “spine guy” or “Interventional Physiatrist” to justify a boutique type practice, then so be it, but you better have some special/far advanced skills to offer that are quite evident to patients, surgeons, PCPs, pain docs. For quite some time now, Physiatrists have been touting our approach MSK/Occ med/Spine and Pain Management as superior without insuring that the majority (>50% at least) of new grads can deliver the goods.

By reintegrating PASSOR, creating a spine track at the annual meeting and renaming the AAPMR’s journal, The Academy has made it clear that it wants Physiatrists to be known as the de facto experts in non-operative spine and musculoskeletal care. Whether we have the commitment and drive to make good on these lofty goals remains to be seen. Handing down new ACGME requirements through the ABPMR would likely be the necessary final step. You want to be competitive and help the academy achieve its goals (regarding spine care in particular)?, then get as much MSK training as you can during residency. If your program offers poor MSK/spine training and/or no funding to attend the right conferences, then agitate for change. Follow up your base training with a gas fellowship at places like the Cleveland Clinic or Hopkins, or a highly interventional procedurally diverse PM&R fellowship like Windsor’s. For those newly matched, things are likely to have evolved even further when you look for fellowships in 2010.
 
When making decisions about fellowships, what to do?, who the best is, or even how to structure you residency training prior to fellowship, residents/med students (including those recently matched) need to get an accurate view on the role of Physiatry in the medical community and how that role is perceived by patients and other physicians as of 2007.

First of all, what is Interventional Physiatry/Spine? Most will say that it is a Physiatrist who takes care of patients with Orthopadic spinal pain through conservative measures including the use of some basic injections. But, what is the scope of these procedures? What can be expected in terms of technical competency? What is the knowledge base? Personally, I think this term should be done away with/discouraged unless our field chooses to fully embrace and define it.

To say Slipman has the best interventional spine fellowship may be accurate from a certain line of thinking. One has to remember that in the early to mid 90's, Physiatrists were lucky to get any MSK/Spine training at all during residency, much less get quality MSK/Spine training. In that era virtually no Physiatrists got to do spinal injections during residency. So, if you wanted to become an interventionalist back then, you had to do either a gas fellowship (essentially closed to Physiatrists in the 90s), or train with a Physiatrist who was brave enough to have started performing interventional pain procedures. Slipman, Windsor, Saul brothers, Dreyfuss, Lagattuta were probably the frontrunners here. Concerning the research contribution from the Physiatry world regarding interventional pain management procedures, the greatest contributions have likely come from Slipman and Dreyfuss, thus the reputations.

Fast forward to 2007. Knowing some Physiatrists that trained at Slipman's program, I have been told that his fellows do a good volume of MSK type EMGs, use algorithms heavily weighted on evidenced based treatments, learn to read spinal CTs/MRIs, only perform transforaminals (no interlaminars) and that the fellows themselves do not perform the Vertebroplasties or Percutaneous Disc Decompressions. You will also participate in his ongoing research.

Regarding the procedures, what if you already logged 200-300 transforaminals during residency? What if you did 8-12 months in sports/spine/MSK? What if you did over 400 EMGs during residency and learned to read MRIs? A whole brutal year of fellowship to log 10+ RFs and 10+ discograms? Would any interventional spine program still be the best? What if you've decided that after fellowship you don't want to work for a surgeon or be an employee of a "spine center" and now realize that you don't know how to implant stims or do sympathetic blocks. What if you want to live in a desirable area that is saturated with pain interventionalists such that you cannot feasibly treat only “spine” patients. What if cervical transforaminals really fall out of favor. Uh oh, you never learned how to do cervical interlaminars or how to use epidural catheters.

As Physiatrists, here is how we would like to be perceived by patients and other physicians:
-Superior knowledge of anatomy, kinesiology, functional biomechanics and rehabilitation of the musculoskeletal system and spine combined with sound interventional and electrodiagnostic skills leads to a complete diagnosis and greater functional outcomes in a conservative, cost effective manner.

Now, the perceived reality:
-Physiatrists do alot of nothing during residency. When they go out into practice, they get snatched up by Spine/Neurosurgeons to take care of alot of the easy conservative care to keep the patients in the practice and to write the scripts for PT. They can also do some basic injections but their technical skills are all over the map and in general they really struggle with anything more advanced. I would not trust my community Physiatrist to do anything to my or my patient's neck. If the patient absolutely needs it, I guess I’ll refer them to the pain doc down the street.

Now, I'm exaggerating, but unfortunately, in most community settings the perception in scenario B is the reality. An example from real life. The other day I saw a new pt in the clinic. She was a "low back and total body pain" patient with heavy psychological overlay. She had been referred by a Physiatrist for evaluation for an intrathecal pump trial. The referring Physiatrist is an “interventional spine” guy. He saw the patient for consult only, before referring to our group. The funny thing is, I consider myself a “spine guy” as well. I just happen to work in a pain group. Being a “spine specialist”, he should have something unique to offer the patient or some special insight into her diagnosis and rehabilitation right? Well, needless to say, the patient was quite disappointed/unimpressed with the referring Physiatrist and in her consultation with me, referred to him as a “PT with an MD”. This type of situation tends to happen every now and then from various referral sources.

So, what’s the real point of this long winded post? Physiatry has advanced considerably since the late 80s to mid 90s. Many Physiatrists no longer have to go through an entire residency devoid of MSK/spine/interventional training and then train for another year with 1 of a few Spine/MSK experts to become an expert themselves. A higher standard is expected today. If you want to call yourself a “spine guy” or “Interventional Physiatrist” to justify a boutique type practice, then so be it, but you better have some special/far advanced skills to offer that are quite evident to patients, surgeons, PCPs, pain docs. For quite some time now, Physiatrists have been touting our approach MSK/Occ med/Spine and Pain Management as superior without ensuring that the majority (>50% at least) of new grads can deliver the goods.

By reintegrating PASSOR, creating a spine track at the annual meeting and renaming the AAPMR’s journal, The Academy has made it clear that it wants Physiatrists to be known as the de facto experts in non-operative spine and musculoskeletal care. Whether we have the commitment and drive to make good on these lofty goals remains to be seen. Handing down new ACGME requirements through the ABPMR would likely be the necessary final step. You want to be competitive and help the academy achieve its goals (regarding spine care in particular)?, then get as much MSK training as you can during residency. If your program offers poor MSK/spine training and/or no funding to attend the right conferences, then agitate for change. Follow up your base training with a gas fellowship at places like the Cleveland Clinic or Hopkins, or a highly interventional procedurally diverse PM&R fellowship like Windsor’s. For those newly matched, things are likely to have evolved even further when you look for fellowships in 2010.

Brothers and sisters, can I hear a Hallelujah? :thumbup:
 
Now, I'm exaggerating, but unfortunately, in most community settings the perception in scenario B is the reality. An example from real life. The other day I saw a new pt in the clinic. She was a "low back and total body pain" patient with heavy psychological overlay. She had been referred by a Physiatrist for evaluation for an intrathecal pump trial. The referring Physiatrist is an “interventional spine” guy. He saw the patient for consult only, before referring to our group. The funny thing is, I consider myself a “spine guy” as well. I just happen to work in a pain group. Being a “spine specialist”, he should have something unique to offer the patient or some special insight into her diagnosis and rehabilitation right? Well, needless to say, the patient was quite disappointed/unimpressed with the referring Physiatrist and in her consultation with me, referred to him as a “PT with an MD”. This type of situation tends to happen every now and then from various referral sources.

Hmm...

If I'm reading this correctly, using this "total body pain" patient who referred to a physiatrist as a "PT with a MD" as an example of how "interventional spine" guys are perceived implies that you support this stance.
 
You're not reading into this correctly.

Interventional Physiatrists like to say that we are superior when it comes to Non-operative Spine/MSK care due to our approach, background and philosophy.

Other Physicians (surgeons/pain docs) say that we can only take care of easy patients and are technically inept (which personally, I am tired of hearing),
which is why I think the use of the terms “Interventional Physiatry/Interventional Spine” should be discouraged unless the ABPMR/AAPMR fully supports these terms and comes up with a defined knowledge base/skill set and a means for ensuring that all new graduates (or at the very least all those who wish to practice in this manner) acquire this knowledge/these skills.

The average Interventional Physiatrist (50th percentile) can perform orthopaedic maneuvers out of Hoppenfeld and lumbar TFESIs, facets, MBBs, SIJs and maybe lumbar RF. If we make claims of superiority, what good does it do if only the top 2% (arbitrary number) of Physiatrists can back it up. Talk is cheap. Patients and other physicians are not fooled by our rhetoric. I’ve experienced the scenario I described above many more times than I’d have liked. Being in a pain practice, patients have been willing to share their opinions, not knowing that I myself am a Physiatrist.

Continuing as we have been will not advance the specialty.
 
You're not reading into this correctly.

Interventional Physiatrists like to say that we are superior when it comes to Non-operative Spine/MSK care due to our approach, background and philosophy.

Other Physicians (surgeons/pain docs) say that we can only take care of easy patients and are technically inept (which personally, I am tired of hearing),
which is why I think the use of the terms “Interventional Physiatry/Interventional Spine” should be discouraged unless the ABPMR/AAPMR fully supports these terms and comes up with a defined knowledge base/skill set and a means for ensuring that all new graduates (or at the very least all those who wish to practice in this manner) acquire this knowledge/these skills.

The average Interventional Physiatrist (50th percentile) can perform orthopaedic maneuvers out of Hoppenfeld and lumbar TFESIs, facets, MBBs, SIJs and maybe lumbar RF. If we make claims of superiority, what good does it do if only the top 2% (arbitrary number) of Physiatrists can back it up. Talk is cheap. Patients and other physicians are not fooled by our rhetoric. I’ve experienced the scenario I described above many more times than I’d have liked. Being in a pain practice, patients have been willing to share their opinions, not knowing that I myself am a Physiatrist.

Continuing as we have been will not advance the specialty.

I'm just a pain doctor these days. WHat's a physiatrist? ANd if you start talking to me on an elevator- I'll stab you in the neck with a 14G Tuohy.
 
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