Few questions about Neurology

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Cliff Huxtable

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Ok, so I admit I don't know much about the practice of neurology, but I have a few questions.

How feasible is having a neurology private practice? What types of cases do you see and what do you do in private practice?

How is the lifestyle? The pay? The hours?

How difficult is it to go into neuroradiology from neurology as opposed to radiology?

What are some of the more popular neurology subspecialties that lend themselves well to private practice?

(I would like to be in a private practice instead of working for a hospital.)

Lastly, any overall tips/suggestions for a MSIII thinking about Neurology?

Thanks!
 
Since no one's responding, I'll give it a shot, though I'm probably amongst the most underqualified to do so. My answers are bold and in red. Anyone who actually knows what they're talking about and cares to disagree may freely do so. (Not that you need my permission.)


Ok, so I admit I don't know much about the practice of neurology, but I have a few questions.

How feasible is having a neurology private practice? What types of cases do you see and what do you do in private practice?

My understanding is that private practice neuro is quite viable. I think there are fewer start-up costs for instruments etc. compared to a surgery center or something like that. Kinda similar to family practice maybe? Probably small groups are the most common since it spreads call out.

As for cases, I'm sure you could to whatever you were interested in terms of common neuro. I doubt you could do something super specialized as a PP doc, since you just wouldn't get enough to pay all the bills.


How is the lifestyle? The pay? The hours?

In PP, I think it's what you make of it. You could probably take every Friday off, but I doubt you could take 8 weeks consecutive vacation because your patients would get annoyed and find someone else. The money isn't amazing as medical specialties go. I think you'd get more than a family practice doctor, but less than an anesthesiology, dermatologist, etc.

How difficult is it to go into neuroradiology from neurology as opposed to radiology?

Considerably harder from what I've read. If you're interested in neuroradiology, best get a radiology residency.

What are some of the more popular neurology subspecialties that lend themselves well to private practice?

I have pratically no clue. My complete guess is stroke, headache, MS, and epilepsy as four relatively common, low overhead specialties. Otherwise, I have no clue.

(I would like to be in a private practice instead of working for a hospital.)

Lastly, any overall tips/suggestions for a MSIII thinking about Neurology?

I think the standard ones apply. Do elective rotations in neuro, do some research maybe, do some away rotations, get good LORs from your neuro dept. Neuro's not that competitive unless you want to go to Harvard or Johns Hopkins, so you should be fine.

Thanks!
 
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D*mn. Did I nail this so well that no one's gonna bother to disagree? I must spend way to much time on these forums considering I can't receive any letters of acceptance for another week yet. And I'm giving advice on how to get into residency.
 
I would add pain. Pain is a pretty popular area and relatively new...compared to stroke etc. its a growing field. and lucrative.

although I dont think PP neurology is all that great an idea. if you want to make money go elsewhere. seriously...almost all the PPs I see advertise imaging and botox. thats mainly how they pay their bills. neurology is not a procedure based field so its pretty tough to make good money in it in PP. though academic neurologists do decent, i think the better research physicians at UCSF etc. make probably close to 200k a year. but who wants to be in it for the money right?

seriously though, im very interested in the field and am thinking of the MD/PhD route....who knows.
 
good thoughts, more opinions anyone? Who else is thinking about neuro?
 
Ok, so I admit I don't know much about the practice of neurology, but I have a few questions.

Cliff Huxtable? Shouldn't you be on the OBGYN forum? 😉

How feasible is having a neurology private practice?

Very. Solo practice seems to be fading out but you can certainly still be in a group practice. These range in size from 2 to 20+. Most larger groups cover multiple hospitals and office locations. Larger groups also usually allow you to have more of a "subspecialist" role if you want.

What types of cases do you see and what do you do in private practice?

"Bread and butter" neurology is headache, stroke, and seizure. Mostly headache. And lots of other pain complaints (neuropathy, back pain, etc). DO NOT go into neurology if you can't handle a lot of pain patients. Even if you subspecialize, it will be a big part of what you see. Beyond that, lots of "weak and dizzy" old ladies; "altered mental status" consults in the hospital; smattering of other stuff like MS, vertigo, dementia, movement disorders. Sleep stuff is becoming bigger. Every once in a great while you get a zebra like Huntington disease or prion disease, limbic encephalitis, etc.

Most people in private practice (and academics) do both inpatient and outpatient practice, but, as with internal medicine, there is starting to be a move toward hospitalists. And neuro-intensive care is a growing area as well, if you like the inpatient environment.

It helps (the bottom line) to be able to do one of the following procedures (at least nowadays; this may change as the healthcare environment changes): EMG, EEG, sleep, pain.

How is the lifestyle? The pay? The hours?

Lifestyle's not bad. Hours are variable depending on your practice setting. My official hours are 8-5, some days I'm there longer, some days not. Call is variable depending on size of group. As for pay, I'm not starving. Many neurologists in private or (non-academic) hospital practice make >$200K, more if they do lots of procedures as noted above. After health care is "reformed," who knows?

How difficult is it to go into neuroradiology from neurology as opposed to radiology?

Don't waste your time with this line of questioning. While there is a growing field of "interventional neurology," it is not the same thing as neuroradiology. If your goal is to sit around reading MRIs and CTs all day, you need to do a rads residency.

What are some of the more popular neurology subspecialties that lend themselves well to private practice?

Depends what you mean by "lend themselves well." If you mean "make money for the practice," it's neurophysiology (EMG/EEG), sleep and interventional pain. Maybe stroke. Other specialties that are frequently looked for by employers but not necessarily big moneymakers are headache, MS, epilepsy, maybe movement disorders.

(I would like to be in a private practice instead of working for a hospital.)

Most private practice jobs require some hospital work. Pure outpatient practice is rare.

Lastly, any overall tips/suggestions for a MSIII thinking about Neurology?

Think about the patients you will be seeing. Neurologists see patients with brain disease. The brain is the organ of behavior. Thus, many of your patients will not be playing with a full deck. Many have associated psychiatric conditions (depression, anxiety, etc) or other cognitive problems (dementia, various encephalopathies) that make it all that much harder to treat their other problems. This can be a source of great frustration to both patient and physician. If you can't deal with this, stay away.

As I noted above, pain is a big part of neuro, especially outpatient private practice. If you don't like that, again, stay away.

Neuro has a reputation for being unable to fix anything. That's true to an extent. Don't go into neuro expecting to "cure" much. The goal in most cases is to minimize symtpoms and maximize function. This is often not what the patient wants to hear, so if you don't like not being able to make a quick fix, don't do neuro.

Most med schools make you spend your neuro rotation on the inpatient service where all you see is stroke. Try to get away and do some time in an outpatient setting, if possible with a private practice doc, so you can see what they really do day to day.

Good luck.
 
Neuro has a reputation for being unable to fix anything. That's true to an extent. Don't go into neuro expecting to "cure" much. The goal in most cases is to minimize symtpoms and maximize function. This is often not what the patient wants to hear, so if you don't like not being able to make a quick fix, don't do neuro.

(swooping in from the PM&R forum)

Hey, that’s our shtick! 😀
 
Neurologist, would you be of the opinion that a neurologist with an interest in headache & pain medicine (not necessarily fellowship-trained in pain though, just a general interest) would be a popular person to hire in a typical neurology multi-doc group? I ask because it seems like someone coming in willing to take a substantial portion of those folks might be welcomed if the other docs are more interested in non-pain areas.

Second, I had a quick question regarding neurology visit lengths. I've read that visits lengths for a new patient are 60-80 minutes and follow-ups are ~30 minutes. How can neurologists afford to spend this much time with patients w/o going out of business? Blue Dog mentioned that Medicare pays the same for all office visits regardless of specialty. So, how do neurologists stay afloat if an FM doc has to run through patients in 15 minutes? Just curious. Thanks!
 
Neurologist, would you be of the opinion that a neurologist with an interest in headache & pain medicine (not necessarily fellowship-trained in pain though, just a general interest) would be a popular person to hire in a typical neurology multi-doc group? I ask because it seems like someone coming in willing to take a substantial portion of those folks might be welcomed if the other docs are more interested in non-pain areas.

I'd hire you in a minute. 😀 The short answer is "probably," but it's actually a complicated question and kinda depends on the practice.

There are a couple of reasons that many docs tend to dislike pain practice. One is that it's, well, painful. The patients can be a very depressing and needy segment of the population and can suck up a lot of your time and good will. Second, unless you are doing procedural pain medicine (i.e., sticking needles and other stuff into people), it's basically just another not-incredibly-well-reimbursed office visit.

Thus, while many docs would welcome someone who would be willing to "see all the pain patients," it wouldn't necessarily be a big economic benefit to the practice unless you were a procedural person, which generally means "fellowship trained." It also means that you'd need access to a flouro suite, which means that if you were wanting to do procedures, your group would have to have access to such a site, which is a whole 'nother complicated issue.

I guess you could argue that if you were seeing all the pain stuff (even if non-interventional), the other docs could do more high-paying stuff like more EMGs, etc, but that would only work if there were actually more to do.

Second, I had a quick question regarding neurology visit lengths. I've read that visits lengths for a new patient are 60-80 minutes and follow-ups are ~30 minutes. How can neurologists afford to spend this much time with patients w/o going out of business? Blue Dog mentioned that Medicare pays the same for all office visits regardless of specialty. So, how do neurologists stay afloat if an FM doc has to run through patients in 15 minutes? Just curious. Thanks!

My new consults are 60 minutes and my f/u visits are 20. I have, in the past, worked on a 60/30 and a 40/20 schedule as well.

The financial issue all comes down to three things: coding, documentation, and procedures. A 15 minute primary care visit is billed as a non-complex visit. The visit is very focused on the immediate matter at hand, and only a few key points are addressed in the documentation. It's not a complete H&P and the level of medical decisionmaking is generally pretty low. Contrast that to a new neurology (or other specialty) consult. Complete H&P, review of systems, full general and neuro exam, with extensive clinical review and decisionmaking, review of multiple lab and imaging studies, etc, and it becomes a complex new patient visit. Insurance (including Medicare) reimburses more for increased complexity and more thorough documentation. So, even though the FM doc sees lots more 10 and 15 minute patients, he gets less per patient than the specialist.

The other issue is procedures. When we're not seeing patients, were doing EMGs or reading EEGs or sleep studies. That's where the money is that really floats the practice financially.
 
The other issue is procedures. When we're not seeing patients, were doing EMGs or reading EEGs or sleep studies. That's where the money is that really floats the practice financially.

So, is there worry that if reimbursement goes down for all sorts of "reading" and procedure tasks, that neuro docs will go out of business?

My line of thinking is that cardiologists (just as an example) make lots of money doing caths, angios, etc. and by reading echos. If those reimbursements all go down, pay will decrease, but still be reasonable.

However, if doing EMGs and reading EEGs and sleep studies helps float non-profitable areas of your business, is there a chance you'd have to close entirely if reimbursements for those studies fall, since there's nothing to reimburse the longer patient visits?
 
Nah, then we'll just start doing caths. Problem solved! 🙂

Everyone must adapt to survive. Reimbursement structures have changed before, and they'll change again. Some specialties get their day in the sun, and some get left in the shadows. A while back you could make a lot of money in a neurology practice with IVIG infusions, and so lots of practices established infusion centers and bought the IVIG wholesale, selling at a good profit. The economics of that changed, and so practice has changed as well.

I think it is unlikely that outpatient neurology will completely disappear as a specialty because EMG reimbursements go down. The pendulum may swing between procedures and office visits. If reimbursement for procedures goes down, well then we're still pretty good at looooong office visits.
 
A 15 minute primary care visit is billed as a non-complex visit. The visit is very focused on the immediate matter at hand, and only a few key points are addressed in the documentation. It's not a complete H&P and the level of medical decisionmaking is generally pretty low.

To be fair, this is practice-dependent. On average, I address anywhere from 3-6 problems in a typical visit, complexity is usually moderate, and most of my visits are coded as a 99214. I'll also modifier-25 in a procedure whenever possible.

Contrast that to a new neurology (or other specialty) consult...Insurance (including Medicare) reimburses more for increased complexity and more thorough documentation.

True, but you're probably also billing a consult code, which pays more than a new patient code. Consult codes are going away for Medicare patients as of January 1st. Other payers will probably follow suit. This will affect the bottom line of not only neurology, but anyone who sees a lot of consults.

Goodbye Medicare consultation codes: Your practice's next steps
http://blog.mgma.com/blog/bid/28204/Goodbye-Medicare-consultation-codes-Your-practice-s-next-steps
 
I will be attending an IMG medical school starting in May and am pretty set on going into neurology. I have worked in a brain tumor research lab the last four years and have shadowed a neuro-oncologist in the last year. Really fell in love with the field. Couple of questions if someone in the know don't mind:

What are your experiences or observations concerning IMG's securing neurology residencies? What would be decent step scores for this?

Am I correct in assuming that after residency, I will need to complete a 2 year fellowship if I want to focus on neuro-oncology? How difficult will this be considering that I am an IMG to secure a fellowship spot? Would Sloan-Kettering be a reallllly long shot?

Is there a niche in PP for neuro-oncology?

Thank you
 
What does that mean?

When you see a new patient it can be termed either a "new patient visit" or a "consultation." Time and space preclude me from going into all the details of what makes it one or the other, but the bottom line is that in general, specialists have been paid more money by insurers for "consultations" than for "new patients." Eliminating the consultation category means that reimbursements for seeing new patients will likely go down.

This change is being introduced by Medicare and initially will only apply to Medicare patients. However, it will likely eventually be adopted by all insurers.
 
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